The Official World Cup 2014 Thread Page 580

  • Page

    of 585 First / Last

  • Youthist 14 Jul 2014 13:35:14 10,018 posts
    Seen 5 days ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    Hacienda wrote:
    Youthist wrote:
    Anyone that is thinking they haven't earned their salary by playing badly would be an idiot. But you have to consider that these players are way overpaid compared to the reality of their skill level or competence at an individual level - or they actually are really good players but are just awful at international football. There is nothing in the teams that got to the final 8 or final 4 to indicate the England team should be unable to get to those stages in big tournaments. They are not better players on display as a first 11. But, they just never do it.
    Because at club level, they have the foreign players around them who do the heavy lifting in terms of skill, technique, and tactical awareness.

    Take Gerrard as example. Never trusted by Houllier or Benitez to be the midfield schemer - because he's actually not that brilliant a technical footballer. Fair play, he's got an engine and a shot, so leave him to run around, whip in crosses and crash winning shots in from the edge of the box, and leave the Xabi Alonso's to be the actual brains...

    Same goes for Rooney, Lampard, and on and on. Their problem internationally is that they can't take the foreigners that balance out their more physical lung-busting game with them.

    Until England starts to prioritise development of smart, technically minded footballers, rather than physical specimens, you will always be (and frankly, have almost always been) a second rate international team.
    I agree with some of this, but I do not believe that at the world cup the final 8 teams were packed full of players with Skill, technique and tactical awareness that England players do not have. Each team had one, two or maybe 3 outstanding players, and the rest were of a much lower standard. The problem isn't grass roots, training etc etc. It is coaching about how to play and win in big tournaments not about grass roots etc. Which is where Woy fails. Are we really saying the Uruguay or Costa Rica (or whatever) grass roots systems are superior to Englands and that is why they did better than England?

    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise half of them are stupider than that

  • nickthegun 14 Jul 2014 13:36:04 59,887 posts
    Seen 18 minutes ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    Its quite funny how, within the space of 24 hours, we have gone from 'copy spain' to 'copy germany'.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    someone say something funny

  • Dougs 14 Jul 2014 13:38:02 67,677 posts
    Seen 1 minute ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    The problem (well, one of) we have is that the governing body of the leagues have no vested interest in the national team. It's not in the Premier League's interests to help England succeed, so they are not going to vote through proposals that will actively damage their members and their incredibly lucrative brand.
  • robc84 14 Jul 2014 13:38:03 5,599 posts
    Seen 1 minute ago
    Registered 2 years ago
    I honestly don't think England played that bad. Yes, they could have been better, but we played miles better than we were at the Euros 2 years ago, and the world cup 4 years ago. Yes, we didn't make it out of the group, but it was a pretty tough group.

    At least seem to have done away with the route 1 lump it up to Andy Carroll style. We seem to be able to string some passes together now, which is nice.
  • kalel 14 Jul 2014 13:39:02 87,585 posts
    Seen 1 minute ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    @Youthist

    It's also to a very large degree about luck, which is the crucial factor everyone forgets about when analysing why certain teams win a tournament.

    I do agree that Roy simply didn't have the tactical and motivational ability to get us all the way to winning, but a couple more things going in our favour or against the opposition could easily have seen reach the last eight at least.
  • THFourteen 14 Jul 2014 13:41:26 33,406 posts
    Seen 21 minutes ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    Dougs wrote:
    The problem (well, one of) we have is that the governing body of the leagues have no vested interest in the national team. It's not in the Premier League's interests to help England succeed, so they are not going to vote through proposals that will actively damage their members and their incredibly lucrative brand.
    Pfft. I have no vested interest in the national team either. Apart from once every four years.
  • THFourteen 14 Jul 2014 13:42:26 33,406 posts
    Seen 21 minutes ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    Youthist wrote:The problem isn't grass roots, training etc etc. It is coaching about how to play and win in big tournaments not about grass roots etc. Which is where Woy fails. Are we really saying the Uruguay or Costa Rica (or whatever) grass roots systems are superior to Englands and that is why they did better than England?
    If thats the case, how is it that we have been through SO many top level managers and they've ALL not been able to coach? Why are English players so unable to be taught anything?
  • nickthegun 14 Jul 2014 13:43:07 59,887 posts
    Seen 18 minutes ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    kalel wrote:
    @Youthist

    It's also to a very large degree about luck, which is the crucial factor everyone forgets about when analysing why certain teams win a tournament.
    Im pretty sure that if we had costa rica in the first game, we would have made it out of the group.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    someone say something funny

  • kalel 14 Jul 2014 13:45:21 87,585 posts
    Seen 1 minute ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    Sven and Capello were both excellent coaches. Sven did about as much as could have been realistically expected, and Capello did well apart from in his one tournament (unfortunately).
  • Dougs 14 Jul 2014 13:48:03 67,677 posts
    Seen 1 minute ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    nickthegun wrote:
    Im pretty sure that if we had costa rica in the first game, we would have made it out of the group.
    Yep, said the same whilst watching that game. The draw itself was horrendously bad luck. I think Roy is getting a pass purely because people can see it was a) a tough group and b) there is some degree of progress. How easy that progress is to measure will be difficult with the top 2 qualifying from our Euro group...
  • robc84 14 Jul 2014 13:48:05 5,599 posts
    Seen 1 minute ago
    Registered 2 years ago
    I think a lot of it is down to attitude.

    Take Rooney for example. Clearly a technically gifted player who had the potential to be a world beater. But he doesn't have the dedication to be the best, like say Ronaldo or Bale do.

    Beckham is one of the few English players to show it, but sadly he just wasn't quite good enough to be the best.
  • Youthist 14 Jul 2014 14:00:47 10,018 posts
    Seen 5 days ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    kalel wrote:
    @Youthist

    It's also to a very large degree about luck, which is the crucial factor everyone forgets about when analysing why certain teams win a tournament.

    I do agree that Roy simply didn't have the tactical and motivational ability to get us all the way to winning, but a couple more things going in our favour or against the opposition could easily have seen reach the last eight at least.
    Nah I do agree we were unfortunate for a lot of reasons in the tournament. The group they were in, the order of the games etc all was "against" us if we had a poor result first game. Italy we did ok, and Rooney missed a sitter for 2-2. Even in the UG game, had his header gone in etc etc. And CR beating Italy, etc. So yes, they were unlucky in this tournament. I am not saying it is all massive doom and gloom - just getting so very tired of this now - too many times, for too long.

    Btw - my favourite stat - The last time England won any world cup match in which the opponent scored was England 3 Cameroon 2 in 1990 (two fortunate Lineker penalties). 7 World Cups ago.

    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise half of them are stupider than that

  • Youthist 14 Jul 2014 14:03:40 10,018 posts
    Seen 5 days ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    robc84 wrote:
    I think a lot of it is down to attitude.

    Take Rooney for example. Clearly a technically gifted player who had the potential to be a world beater. But he doesn't have the dedication to be the best, like say Ronaldo or Bale do.

    Beckham is one of the few English players to show it, but sadly he just wasn't quite good enough to be the best.

    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise half of them are stupider than that

  • askew 14 Jul 2014 14:25:06 12,264 posts
    Seen 51 minutes ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    Does he do a Hatton in the off-season?
  • senso-ji 14 Jul 2014 14:31:43 5,905 posts
    Seen 7 minutes ago
    Registered 6 years ago
    Luck had absolutely nothing to do with England going out. None of the goals they conceded were down to bad luck, and their group was full of poor-average teams, one of which was half full of aging players and the other had a good striker who was 50% match fit.

    England were flat out poor, and the sooner we realise this and cut out the bullshit excuses, the sooner the team and setup might improve. If we start blaming luck for our failing then we keep encouraging mediocraty.
  • Feanor 14 Jul 2014 14:32:26 14,166 posts
    Seen 16 hours ago
    Registered 13 years ago
    I used to think it was mainly bad coaching, but it's clear to me now that the English players just aren't good enough. The current crop are worse than the Beckham/Lampard/Gerrard era and they weren't good enough to get near winning a major tournament. So I don't see the English team having any chance of success until a new generation comes thru in the 20s.

    Edited by Feanor at 14:32:36 14-07-2014
  • Bremenacht 14 Jul 2014 14:37:02 18,222 posts
    Seen 2 hours ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    I don't agree about Rooney. Maybe I'm just falling for some PR, but he seemed to be doing more than anyone to prepare for the tournament, but you're only as good as the team and system you play in. Rooney is a false scapegoat.

    The biggest problem for England is the stupid expectations. Every tournament, the England manager is asked "Can/Will England win?". The question is always employed as a means to bash the manager for being negative, or bash the team for not winning like the manager said they could/would.

    Then you've got arse-rags like the Sun with their crass support. Boadicea and Churchill are looking down upon this team, etc etc.
  • Big-Swiss 14 Jul 2014 14:37:23 8,084 posts
    Seen 40 seconds ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    I think 4 years ago England could have had a very very strong squad. But Capello took some wrong players with him and left some wrong players at home
  • robc84 14 Jul 2014 14:42:29 5,599 posts
    Seen 1 minute ago
    Registered 2 years ago
    @Bremenacht

    I'm not picking on Rooney for our failings at this tournament. I'm using him as an example of a massively talented English player who lacked the application to fulfil his potential. IMO of course.

    I'm sure there are others, but he seems like the most obvious example.
  • faux_carnation 14 Jul 2014 14:42:42 9,335 posts
    Seen 42 minutes ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    Feanor wrote:
    I used to think it was mainly bad coaching, but it's clear to me now that the English players just aren't good enough. The current crop are worse than the Beckham/Lampard/Gerrard era and they weren't good enough to get near winning a major tournament. So I don't see the English team having any chance of success until a new generation comes thru in the 20s.
    Nearly all of the current team play in the first XIs of top 4 teams in the Premier League. They're clearly good enough for international standard football. There might not be the depth of quality and coherent coaching that Germany and Spain have, but with a good manager they should be easily good enough for success (quarter finals or beyond). Anything else is just excuses for the FA's failure to appoint properly.
  • tincanrocket 14 Jul 2014 14:50:57 2,987 posts
    Seen 1 hour ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    Roy Hodgson and the fact that most of our players are nowhere near as good as they think they are or we make them out to be - they are largely overpaid and overhyped and seem to lack the hunger that foreign players possess - not surprising when you are earning more than many people will earn in their entire working lives in a single month

    Edited by tincanrocket at 14:52:35 14-07-2014
  • Hacienda 14 Jul 2014 14:56:20 118 posts
    Seen 1 hour ago
    Registered 5 months ago
    Youthist wrote:
    I agree with some of this, but I do not believe that at the world cup the final 8 teams were packed full of players with Skill, technique and tactical awareness that England players do not have. Each team had one, two or maybe 3 outstanding players, and the rest were of a much lower standard. The problem isn't grass roots, training etc etc. It is coaching about how to play and win in big tournaments not about grass roots etc. Which is where Woy fails. Are we really saying the Uruguay or Costa Rica (or whatever) grass roots systems are superior to Englands and that is why they did better than England?
    It's almost cliche, but English football's problems are largely cultural, and the types of players you develop and ultimately promote. And the few offensive players of any quality you do produce, invariably get side-lined for the more 'dependable' options.

    Cases in point, Scholes being shunted aside for Gerrard and Lampard, McManaman being dismissed as inconsistent and ineffective here yet going on to be a great success and European Cup winner in Spain with Real Madrid. And on and on.

    Until you stop starting players like Jordan Henderson because he's a 'great athlete', and start developing and valuing tactically intelligent, technically adept footballers, you will continue to be the second (third?) rate international team that you are.
  • Hacienda 14 Jul 2014 15:04:50 118 posts
    Seen 1 hour ago
    Registered 5 months ago
    Bremenacht wrote:
    I don't agree about Rooney. Maybe I'm just falling for some PR, but he seemed to be doing more than anyone to prepare for the tournament
    You can prepare all you want. It won't change the fact that you're sub-standard..

    The biggest problem for England is the stupid expectations. Every tournament, the England manager is asked "Can/Will England win?". The question is always employed as a means to bash the manager for being negative, or bash the team for not winning like the manager said they could/would.
    And the Germans don't have expectations? The Italians? The Dutch? And yet somehow, their inate ability to play football well seems to enable them to regularly reach the latter stages of international tournaments in the face of a little 'pressure' from the rags...

    faux_carnation wrote:
    Nearly all of the current team play in the first XIs of top 4 teams in the Premier League. They're clearly good enough for international standard football.
    Except, they're clearly not, as they lose to the first half decent team every team no matter the manager, system, etc.

    English players have their virtues at club level - mostly physical. But let's be real, it's the foreign lads that generally pick up the technical/guile slack, and it shows as soon as you put 11 Englishmen together.
  • Kosmoz 14 Jul 2014 15:12:23 7,692 posts
    Seen 3 hours ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    England's problem, as I see it, is that the fa have no patience. Germany winning the world cup was a long term plan coming to fruition. Every time England get knocked out of a major tournament, the FA decide that they need a new plan and start all over, meaning that the previous plan doesn't get any time to work

    Every girl I ever kissed I was thinking of a pro footballer.

  • superbob85 14 Jul 2014 15:15:55 2,031 posts
    Seen 14 hours ago
    Registered 7 months ago
    Didn't know the english fa had a plan in the first place.
  • senso-ji 14 Jul 2014 15:24:38 5,905 posts
    Seen 7 minutes ago
    Registered 6 years ago
    The only plan the FA have is how much more money that can get for sponsorship deals and TV money for the PL clubs.
  • Zizoo 14 Jul 2014 15:24:39 8,374 posts
    Seen 4 minutes ago
    Registered 5 years ago
    bob telling it like it is.
  • nickthegun 14 Jul 2014 15:31:45 59,887 posts
    Seen 18 minutes ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    senso-ji wrote:
    The only plan the FA have is how much more money that can get for sponsorship deals and TV money for the PL clubs.
    Replace the last part of that sentence with 'pay for wembley'. I dont think the FA give a crap how much money the PL make.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    someone say something funny

  • Tom_Servo 14 Jul 2014 15:35:03 17,948 posts
    Seen 17 minutes ago
    Registered 4 years ago
    nickthegun wrote:
    Its quite funny how, within the space of 24 hours, we have gone from 'copy spain' to 'copy germany'.
    With a layover in "copy Belgium".
  • kalel 14 Jul 2014 15:39:58 87,585 posts
    Seen 1 minute ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    I've made the point before but we've always been incredibly fickle with these things. Remember the all-German CL final a couple of years ago? I remember that categorically representing the end of Spain's era of domination and Germany now being the top league in Europe. Didn't even last a season.
  • Page

    of 585 First / Last

Log in or register to reply