Champions League Page 531

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  • Armoured_Bear 25 Apr 2013 10:12:30 10,258 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Shikasama wrote:
    nickthegun wrote:
    I think, actually, its remarkably similar stats to the PL.
    Yeah you're right actually, going back ten years we've had 4 Chapions (including Arsenal...lol) and they've had 5 with Bayern having a similar record to United.

    I think the German clubs are romanticised at the minute because not only are they playing good football but their clubs are just well run. Their league seems to actually give a shit about the people who go to games (a Dortmund season ticket can be as cheap as 154 apparently) and don't seem to be owned by fucking nutters.
    Plus standing seats, no violence, no racism etc etc.
    You can drink proper beer and not even have to move from your seat for a fresh one :-)

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  • kalel 25 Apr 2013 10:12:44 86,328 posts
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    Are some of your best friends German?

    Anyway, I'm speaking more broadly than calling you specifically xenophobic so wind your neck in.
  • nickthegun 25 Apr 2013 10:13:10 58,782 posts
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    The thing they have, ironically, got going for them, is that they will never globally turn over the premiership as a brand. If they did, the league would be flooded by the kind of money grabbing wankers that have pretty much killed 'traditional' football in this country.

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    He totally called it

  • Armoured_Bear 25 Apr 2013 10:14:06 10,258 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Effenburg?
    Yes, my mistake.

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  • nickthegun 25 Apr 2013 10:14:39 58,782 posts
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    Also, the bosh havent really got a history of thuggery. We have, which is why we dont have terraces or allow people to drink ale in the stands.

    Its a shame but its not specifically that they treat the fans better in those instances, its just that our fans can be twats at times.

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  • Armoured_Bear 25 Apr 2013 10:18:32 10,258 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Are some of your best friends German?

    Anyway, I'm speaking more broadly than calling you specifically xenophobic so wind your neck in.
    Don't be a dick.
    You are stating that the perception of Bayern being arrogant is due to xenophobia and stereotypes, I am saying that this is nonsense as they are perceived as being arrogant and dislikes for it all around Germany by Germans.

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  • Dougs 25 Apr 2013 10:23:57 66,637 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    Also, the bosh havent really got a history of thuggery. We have, which is why we dont have terraces or allow people to drink ale in the stands.
    That's not strictly true. The Germans and Dutch probably have an even bigger hoolie element that we have, and always have had. England/Germany games are naturally very fruity, but they tend to stick to fighting amongst themselves and not involving scarfers. Very 1980s...

    http://www.thelocal.de/society/20120502-42209.html
  • kalel 25 Apr 2013 10:29:34 86,328 posts
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    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    Are some of your best friends German?

    Anyway, I'm speaking more broadly than calling you specifically xenophobic so wind your neck in.
    Don't be a dick.
    You are stating that the perception of Bayern being arrogant is due to xenophobia and stereotypes, I am saying that this is nonsense as they are perceived as being arrogant and dislikes for it all around Germany by Germans.
    Again, I'm really not throwing an accusation specifically at you. I just think the perception of Bayern being arrogant is part of a wider thing. "Arrogance" is a term that is very quickly and liberally applied to German football (and Germans in general).

    Bayern may specifically have their own resputation as being arrogant but I think it's probably a coincident from our perspective. I vey much doubt Lawro is aware of that when he calls them arrogant (which he does every single time they or any other German team play - seriously, google his name and "German arrogance" and you'll find several examples).
  • Armoured_Bear 25 Apr 2013 10:35:24 10,258 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    Are some of your best friends German?

    Anyway, I'm speaking more broadly than calling you specifically xenophobic so wind your neck in.
    Don't be a dick.
    You are stating that the perception of Bayern being arrogant is due to xenophobia and stereotypes, I am saying that this is nonsense as they are perceived as being arrogant and dislikes for it all around Germany by Germans.
    Again, I'm really not throwing an accusation specifically at you. I just think the perception of Bayern being arrogant is part of a wider thing. "Arrogance" is a term that is very quickly and liberally applied to German football (and Germans in general).

    Bayern may specifically have their own resputation as being arrogant but I think it's probably a coincident from our perspective. I vey much doubt Lawro is aware of that when he calls them arrogant (which he does every single time they or any other German team play - seriously, google his name and "German arrogance" and you'll find several examples).
    Lawro is a fucking idiot tbf.
    Are other German clubs considered arrogant in the UK?
    e.g. Werder Bremen, Schalke, Leverkusen
    I've no idea, I've only really heard of it with reference to the national team.

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  • nickthegun 25 Apr 2013 10:38:15 58,782 posts
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    Dougs wrote:
    nickthegun wrote:
    Also, the bosh havent really got a history of thuggery. We have, which is why we dont have terraces or allow people to drink ale in the stands.
    That's not strictly true. The Germans and Dutch probably have an even bigger hoolie element that we have, and always have had. England/Germany games are naturally very fruity, but they tend to stick to fighting amongst themselves and not involving scarfers. Very 1980s...

    http://www.thelocal.de/society/20120502-42209.html
    They havent got a hillsborough or a heysel hanging over them, though.

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  • kalel 25 Apr 2013 10:39:09 86,328 posts
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    It's not so much that a club itself is considered arrogant. It's just a word that we're very quick to spring to with German teams when commenting on them. It's wired in and we don't even realise we're doing it.

    Equally I wonder how much specific words get more use when talking about Italian, Spanis, South American or African teams. I would be willing to bet there's some interesting stuff there.
  • Dougs 25 Apr 2013 10:47:46 66,637 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    They havent got a hillsborough or a heysel hanging over them, though.
    True enough. From what I can gather, it's largely kept away from grounds. Very weird when I went to the England 5-1 in Munich - there were firms from both sides arranging meets just to have a scrap. Made all the easier with mobiles than it used to be, I imagine. Brave bringing Hillsborough into it. :)
  • nickthegun 25 Apr 2013 10:54:29 58,782 posts
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    I genuinely cant wait for terraces to come back. I hate those shitty plastic seats.

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  • Shikasama 25 Apr 2013 10:58:24 6,603 posts
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    I'd be all up for allowing drinking in the stands, but I'd want them to institute some sort of identification system to ban people properly who got tanked up and caused trouble.

    As it is the oxygen thiefs that pollute stadiums up and down the country would completey ruin it for everyone. Honestly, they allow drinking in the stands for one weekend with everyone at 3pm kick offs...how long before the first fight/invasion/etc?
  • Shikasama 25 Apr 2013 10:59:10 6,603 posts
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    I've never understood really why people are so desperate to stand up at football games. Seems weird to me.

    *sat down* Oh god this game is shit

    *stood up* OH GOD THIS GAME IS AMAZING
  • Dougs 25 Apr 2013 10:59:43 66,637 posts
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    It really should be a no brainer these days. You can control (to some extent) the tickets sold in a given area so only sell an appropriate amount. My seat is lovely. Not that I've ever sat in it in 7 years, but still.
  • kalel 25 Apr 2013 11:02:22 86,328 posts
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    Terraces will never come back. If standing does come back it'll be regulated to the point where each person stands in a specific designated spot, possibly with a bar around it. It will effectively be the same as sitting, but with no seat.
  • nickthegun 25 Apr 2013 11:02:33 58,782 posts
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    It generates a better atmosphere, the seats are small and shit and theres always dickheads in your row who gets there late and leave early.

    Admittedly, a large factor for me is the fact that im quite tall and the average stadium is built for dwarves, but I also used to love standing up (which is also a difference, im old enough to remember it).

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  • ecureuil 25 Apr 2013 11:06:18 76,488 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Terraces will never come back. If standing does come back it'll be regulated to the point where each person stands in a specific designated spot, possibly with a bar around it. It will effectively be the same as sitting, but with no seat.
    Ehh.. I don't think they'll go that far. I think they'll just closely regulate the number of people they allow in.
  • kalel 25 Apr 2013 11:18:23 86,328 posts
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    ecureuil wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    Terraces will never come back. If standing does come back it'll be regulated to the point where each person stands in a specific designated spot, possibly with a bar around it. It will effectively be the same as sitting, but with no seat.
    Ehh.. I don't think they'll go that far. I think they'll just closely regulate the number of people they allow in.
    Somebody explained to me once this would literally be the only way they can come back under the post-Hillsborough regulations.
  • Dougs 25 Apr 2013 11:18:29 66,637 posts
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    Stadium design might not facilitate that though - take the Emirates. I go in through a particular turnstile, but then pretty much have a free run of the whole of the lower tier. Stewards don't check on the way to seats, so it could be carnage again if there is a preferred area that people want to stand in, such as right behind the goal (always my preferred position).

    Edit: Surely if this ever went ahead, they would amend the regulations?

    Edited by Dougs at 11:18:57 25-04-2013
  • kalel 25 Apr 2013 11:20:49 86,328 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    It generates a better atmosphere, the seats are small and shit and theres always dickheads in your row who gets there late and leave early.

    Admittedly, a large factor for me is the fact that im quite tall and the average stadium is built for dwarves, but I also used to love standing up (which is also a difference, im old enough to remember it).
    The reason terraces generate better atmosphere is because the loud people move towards each other and congregate. It's like gigs. The moshers all know their place, and so do the people who prefer to keep themselves intact. It's the freedom of movement that is central to the experience. Not the standing.

    I honestly don't think there's any going back to this now. Modern terraces would not be very different to all seaters.
  • nickthegun 25 Apr 2013 11:25:49 58,782 posts
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    I think you could do it, but you would have to give a controllable stand over to it. As dougs says, you go through a turnstile and into the stand, but are segregated off from other parts of the ground. Theres no reason a west upper couldnt be standing as they would know exactly how many people are in there.

    Yeah, its unlikely, but I would like to see terraces again even in some small capacity. I cant remember a game where the away fans havent, basically stood for the entire game, which must be more dangerous than having proper terracing.

    Edited by nickthegun at 11:26:08 25-04-2013

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  • kalel 25 Apr 2013 11:28:03 86,328 posts
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    I absolutely think it could be done, but I doubt it could ever be the same. Again, the way the terraces used to work was based on an organic, almost instinctive dynamic, which was frankly ultimately unsafe. I don't think there's a safe way of re-creating it.
  • SaucyGeoff 25 Apr 2013 11:33:35 2,559 posts
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    We've still got terraces at York, always prefer standing, but as Kalel points out, the main advantage of seating is that it spreads the crowd evenly accross the stand. With terracing you will always get pockets of overcrowding, which can be difficult to manage. In League 2 with an average gate of 4000 this isn't a huge problem, but the days of huge terraces at the top level in England are gone.

    We had 6000 on Saturday, and much busier than usual, the stand was by no means "full", but (possibly understandably) the club played safe and declared it full, and turned fans away.

    We are in the process of building a new stadium, a 6,000 all seater. We've got a loan from the football foundation for it, and one of the conditions was no terracing. :(
  • Mr_Sleep 25 Apr 2013 11:34:49 16,839 posts
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    Isn't the recent Milwall incident fairly indicative of why standing will not return? The violent, anarchic nature of some fans mean we can't go back.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • nickthegun 25 Apr 2013 11:35:31 58,782 posts
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    Some of the reasons are rose tinted and you will never get that feeling of standing at the front in a river of piss back but, practically, clubs could get more people through the door, they can offer cheaper tickets and, importantly, people actually want it.

    There are legitimate reasons for returning to terracing rather than just harking back to the good old days.

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  • nickthegun 25 Apr 2013 11:36:56 58,782 posts
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    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    Isn't the recent Milwall incident fairly indicative of why standing will not return? The violent, anarchic nature of some fans mean we can't go back.
    That they started fighting in the most advanced and secure all seater in the country? I think that just proves that cunts will be cunts wherever you put them.

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  • Mr_Sleep 25 Apr 2013 11:38:42 16,839 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    Isn't the recent Milwall incident fairly indicative of why standing will not return? The violent, anarchic nature of some fans mean we can't go back.
    That they started fighting in the most advanced and secure all seater in the country? I think that just proves that cunts will be cunts wherever you put them.
    The point I'm making is that it was a relatively controlled situation, granted it got out of control but compare the small level of (albiet serious) injuries with what might well have happened if it was standing. Also, the security did a shit job of dealing with the example I cited.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • kalel 25 Apr 2013 11:38:59 86,328 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    ...clubs could get more people through the door, they can offer cheaper tickets...
    See I think these are both fasle despite being commonly put up as reasons to bring terraces back.

    I think the former is the thing that would never happen in order to ensure that safety is guaranteed, and therefore the latter would never happen either, as otherwise clubs would find terraces less profitable than seats.
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