Ridley Scott's Prometheus (spoilers within) Page 109

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  • spindizzy 26 Mar 2014 09:40:55 6,532 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    Yeah, it got far more right than it got wrong, its just that what it got wrong was a really visible, easy target.
    I disagree with the first part of your sentence (looks aside) but I completely agree with the second part. It's not that it's the "worst film evar", but the things it does wrong are monumentally irritating because they're so obvious and unnecessary. It COULD have been amazing, instead it was a complete missed opportunity.
  • itsoldsquarejaw 26 Mar 2014 09:43:30 193 posts
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    It's my favourite film in the series after Alien too, but I'll also admit that a great part of it is inexplicable trash. It's a confusing, amazing mess of a movie; full of Lovecraftian weirdness and stupid character traits, amazing visuals and atmosphere, lobotomised plotting and epic moments. It's just such a monumentally spectacular fuck-up that I can't help but be weirdly addicted to it. I'm not the only one, either. The same year the lesser Nolan Batman movie came out, another film that should've been fantastic and had great bits but had a load of scenes letting the side down. Yet I still like it for what it does right.

    There's so much in Prometheus to enjoy. They're just wrapped around forehead-slapping idiocy. What's amazing is that the original Jon Spaihts script is actually really good, lacking in plotholes and essentially the same film, only an Alien prequel. Yet it gives exactly what you're looking for; it's got the discovery, the horror, a bit that's a bit like Aliens. The characters that do stupid things are actually stupid. The scientists act like scientists ie don't take their helmets off. What's really strange about the whole ordeal is that Ridley and Lindelof ADDED the plot holes and odd characterisation after Spaihts was done. I can understand the initial idea; making it less a prequel to Alien and more a standalone film, but it's done in such an amazingly cack-handed manner you have to wonder what wine they were drinking when they rewrote it.

    Even stranger, and much like The Amazing Spiderman before it, a few plotholes are added by subtracting a few of the deleted scenes on the bluray. Let alone the great creature they came up with that in the alternate Fifield scene they got rid of because... I don't know why. It's really good and would've added a lot to the film.

    So much weirdness surrounds this film. I'm actually keen to see how far down the rabbit hole we go this time, because even if they mess the script up again, visually these films are a treat.
  • Tomo 26 Mar 2014 09:48:57 13,926 posts
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    It's a film that tests how forgivable you are with really dumb scriptwriting. In this case, I was very forgiving. I cast the biologist character aside as fodder and conceded that Theron's character was a strict 100m runner in a previous life and let those niggles wash over me.

    I was left with some amazing action, ludicrous, beautiful monsters which were the stuff of nightmares, and a mental puzzle trying to sew the various threads we were dangled connecting Prometheus and the previous films.

    And Stringer Bell. Can't have enough String.

    Edited by Tomo at 09:50:46 26-03-2014
  • nickthegun 26 Mar 2014 09:49:18 60,118 posts
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    spindizzy wrote:
    nickthegun wrote:
    Yeah, it got far more right than it got wrong, its just that what it got wrong was a really visible, easy target.
    I disagree with the first part of your sentence (looks aside) but I completely agree with the second part. It's not that it's the "worst film evar", but the things it does wrong are monumentally irritating because they're so obvious and unnecessary. It COULD have been amazing, instead it was a complete missed opportunity.
    Yeah, while I do really like it, the things that they got wrong were so stupid its impossible to believe that they werent picked up by *anyone*.

    If you arent going to reverse-age guy pierce, why cast him as an old man? cast an fucking old man. Have the cock snake attack the biologist straight off the bat rather than have him idiotically stick his hand out to stroke it and so on and so forth. Just little things, really little things that would have almost completely saved it.

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  • monkman76 26 Mar 2014 09:55:36 4,381 posts
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    Tomo wrote:
    Theron's character was a strict 100m runner in a previous life
    :D
  • LeoliansBro 26 Mar 2014 09:58:28 44,411 posts
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    It's a really hard balancing act for me, this film. I like that the characters are treated callously and are victims of their own stupidity. I like how futile the whole thing is and how weirdly mundane the mission is, despite the script dragging huge holes in the concept. I like the religion / sacrifice overlay to the motherhood themes from the earlier films. I like the aliens, and I love the atmosphere - all Scotts other plaudits aside, he can take a cheap set and make it look fantastic with smoke and lighting.

    But I don't like the plot, I don't like the stupidly high tech spaceship and the weird aimlessness of the mission (script again at fault), I'm sorry but I don't like David (Fassbender does well but who is the android working for) and the ending is super ridiculous. Plus the characters are underbaked and extras seem to exist only to be picked off. I still don't know how many people were on the ship, and that's a first order crime for a scriptwriter.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • spindizzy 26 Mar 2014 09:59:41 6,532 posts
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    Ha! ;-)

    And Nick, okay, we agree I think. I actually own it on bluray. Maybe I'll try to watch it again...
  • monkman76 26 Mar 2014 10:00:32 4,381 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    I still don't know how many people were on the ship, and that's a first order crime for a scriptwriter.
    Haha, this ruins your lifelong mission to classify and categorise geeky stuff :D
  • nickthegun 26 Mar 2014 10:01:07 60,118 posts
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    The fundamental problem is Damon Lindelof, which is a problem that seems to have been addressed for the sequel.

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  • LeoliansBro 26 Mar 2014 10:05:07 44,411 posts
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    It's introduced some rubbish unwanted baggage into the canon which the next film has to pick up on.

    It's like the Alien series starting with Alien 3.

    #herewegoagain

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Deckard1 26 Mar 2014 10:20:07 28,240 posts
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    If the first words that come to mind when the credits roll are "well that was fucking stupid" you know something has went horribly wrong.

    Edited by Deckard1 at 10:20:31 26-03-2014
  • Bremenacht 26 Mar 2014 10:29:39 18,438 posts
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    Why do these stupid creatures bother impregnating humans anyway when gestation seems to take only 20 minutes in film time? Why not just run around and eat more people instead? That 20 minutes could be used to grow four times as big instead, and maybe start eating elephants or something.

    Edited by Bremenacht at 10:29:51 26-03-2014
  • nickthegun 26 Mar 2014 10:32:18 60,118 posts
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    Because, as seen by the thing that got extracted from her belly, gassed and then trapped in that room, they can grown 100x their original size on nothing but fresh air.

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  • monkman76 26 Mar 2014 10:43:06 4,381 posts
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    To be honest I don't really understand the lifecycle of the aliens in the Ripley films either. How do they grow so big?
  • nickthegun 26 Mar 2014 10:45:00 60,118 posts
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    That is a fair point. The rest of the movies arent exactly flush with explanations in that regard.

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  • CosmicFuzz 26 Mar 2014 10:51:41 24,548 posts
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    itsoldsquarejaw wrote:
    There's so much in Prometheus to enjoy. They're just wrapped around forehead-slapping idiocy. What's amazing is that the original Jon Spaihts script is actually really good, lacking in plotholes and essentially the same film, only an Alien prequel. Yet it gives exactly what you're looking for; it's got the discovery, the horror, a bit that's a bit like Aliens. The characters that do stupid things are actually stupid. The scientists act like scientists ie don't take their helmets off. What's really strange about the whole ordeal is that Ridley and Lindelof ADDED the plot holes and odd characterisation after Spaihts was done. I can understand the initial idea; making it less a prequel to Alien and more a standalone film, but it's done in such an amazingly cack-handed manner you have to wonder what wine they were drinking when they rewrote it.
    I don't know how much of this is true. The original Spaihts version still had Holloway taking off his helmet, still had the two scientists getting lost, still had the snake creature and the Fifield-monster.

    Folk chuck loads of blame for the plotholes at Lindelof's door, but he was essentially hired by Fox to take out the Alien references and make it less a direct-prequel, whether or not that was a good choice I don't know.

    I agree that some of the scenes Spaihts had in originally were great, like David gently introducing a xenomorph like a kitten to a screaming Shaw, etc. Also the medpod scene was inverted - she was inside the chamber whilst it raged outside.

    Everyone knows Jack Thompson - but how did he become the game-blaming activist he is today? Read Part One of my new mini-series!

  • CosmicFuzz 26 Mar 2014 10:52:23 24,548 posts
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    Empire had a diagram of the alien lifecycle a while back, must have a look for it. I always confuse myself trying to work it out.

    Everyone knows Jack Thompson - but how did he become the game-blaming activist he is today? Read Part One of my new mini-series!

  • sega 26 Mar 2014 10:56:46 890 posts
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    There's one plot point that never gets mentioned and it's the only one that bugs me - why is Shaw a Christian? She believes in God, yet seeks out these engineers that would completely disprove her faith. She finds them, they do disprove her faith (along with hundreds of years of Darwinism, which is also mentioned) yet she still says "but who made them?" I find it hard to believe a scientist would rely on faith so much, especially in the face of such evidence.
  • CharlieStCloud 26 Mar 2014 11:00:01 5,217 posts
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    Deckard1 wrote:
    If the first words that come to mind when the credits roll are "well, that was fucking stupid" you know something has gone horribly wrong.
    After walking out of the cinema upon seeing Prometheus, it only made me think of Alien Resurrection in a more renowned and slightly worthwhile light.

    ... the Blu-ray however is worth watching (once) just for how pretty it all looks. The film is a genuine visual delight.
  • Tomo 26 Mar 2014 11:04:19 13,926 posts
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    THERE WAS AN ALIEN THAT LOOKED LIKE A PENIS AND ANOTHER THAT LOOKED LIKE A FIST FULL OF VAGINAS. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT PEOPLE.
  • CosmicFuzz 26 Mar 2014 11:04:54 24,548 posts
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    sega wrote:
    There's one plot point that never gets mentioned and it's the only one that bugs me - why is Shaw a Christian? She believes in God, yet seeks out these engineers that would completely disprove her faith. She finds them, they do disprove her faith (along with hundreds of years of Darwinism, which is also mentioned) yet she still says "but who made them?" I find it hard to believe a scientist would rely on faith so much, especially in the face of such evidence.
    That was added in by Lindelof. Holloway quoted the bible constantly in Spaihts draft though, so there was always some religious undertone (indeed, in the original draft there is actual mention of Jesus being an engineer, rather than the vague allegations the final film had).

    As for science vs religion, I don't have any problem with scientists having faith. The whole point of the film was about creation - humans creating androids, engineers creating humans. Who created the engineers? It's a valid question for a religious person to have, science doesn't answer that for her.

    Everyone knows Jack Thompson - but how did he become the game-blaming activist he is today? Read Part One of my new mini-series!

  • Bremenacht 26 Mar 2014 11:05:48 18,438 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    Because, as seen by the thing that got extracted from her belly, gassed and then trapped in that room, they can grown 100x their original size on nothing but fresh air.
    Heh. And yet, the sequence of that thing getting the big guy, impregnating him and then birthing another alien is possibly my favourite in the film. A lovely, lovely audience 'WTF?!' moment in the cinema when that happened. So many faces turning to eachother with disbelief/confusion/hilarity writ large.

    Maybe that Lost guy has found his calling here. Rather than drag out a load of nonsense over many many TV episodes, just take a familiar franchise, marinate it for a few months in a bowl of 'You Have Got to be Joking' sauce, throw it at cinema screens and collect your paycheck.
  • CosmicFuzz 26 Mar 2014 11:06:36 24,548 posts
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    Lindelof did a good job on the World War Z rewrite.

    Everyone knows Jack Thompson - but how did he become the game-blaming activist he is today? Read Part One of my new mini-series!

  • sega 26 Mar 2014 11:07:03 890 posts
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    CosmicFuzz wrote:
    I don't know how much of this is true. The original Spaihts version still had Holloway taking off his helmet, still had the two scientists getting lost, still had the snake creature and the Fifield-monster.

    Folk chuck loads of blame for the plotholes at Lindelof's door, but he was essentially hired by Fox to take out the Alien references and make it less a direct-prequel, whether or not that was a good choice I don't know.
    Actually, most of those plot points came from the original Alien script before they were found in the first draft of Prometheus. In Alien they originally found a pyramid, it was full of urns (rather than eggs) that secreted when touched. The character, when he goes down there, also takes off his helmet off before sticking his head over the urn.

    The Lindelof additions to the Prometheus script basically removed the direct links to Alien and changed the planet from LV-426 to a new location. I have to say, the original script was just your typical Alien movie by the end. I'm glad it was changed.
  • Bremenacht 26 Mar 2014 11:08:07 18,438 posts
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    CosmicFuzz wrote:
    It's a valid question for a religious person to have, science doesn't answer that for her.
    The guy credited for discovering Big Bang was a Vatican priest. Einstein said something about God hiding behind the detail of science, etc. Religion and Science are a good mix.
  • CosmicFuzz 26 Mar 2014 11:10:21 24,548 posts
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    sega wrote:
    CosmicFuzz wrote:
    I don't know how much of this is true. The original Spaihts version still had Holloway taking off his helmet, still had the two scientists getting lost, still had the snake creature and the Fifield-monster.

    Folk chuck loads of blame for the plotholes at Lindelof's door, but he was essentially hired by Fox to take out the Alien references and make it less a direct-prequel, whether or not that was a good choice I don't know.
    Actually, most of those plot points came from the original Alien script before they were found in the first draft of Prometheus. In Alien they originally found a pyramid, it was full of urns (rather than eggs) that secreted when touched. The character, when he goes down there, also takes off his helmet off before sticking his head over the urn.

    Ah that's quite interesting, I didn't know that.

    Everyone knows Jack Thompson - but how did he become the game-blaming activist he is today? Read Part One of my new mini-series!

  • Bremenacht 26 Mar 2014 11:12:27 18,438 posts
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    sega wrote:
    I have to say, the original script was just your typical Alien movie by the end. I'm glad it was changed.
    Changed... into an Alien movie?

    I love the title of the film and it's possible implications, but those implications never really made it onto the film. It's an Alien film. Aliens -vs- PredatorsEngineers, with humans tossed in for thrills.
  • LeoliansBro 26 Mar 2014 11:14:45 44,411 posts
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    I don't really mind how it does or doesn't fit into the existing Alien universe. It has enough internal problems of its own.

    What is the message of the film? What are the engineers doing? On Earth, on LV-ExtraLayerOfComplexity? What is the goo? What does it do? Why does it do something different to everybody? Why is such an audacious and expensive mission so slovenly and vague? Why is Weyland not openly on the ship? Why does David do pretty much everything he does? Who is on the ship? Why is the alien tech functional (earlier draft had the location genuinely seeming like ruins, which explains the scientists not minding staying, more relaxed safety approach etc)?

    All we are left with are a few guesses from Idris Elba (of all people, he was not there to theorise), a whole lot of stylish death and a pants open ending.

    But, it can be rescued, and I did enjoy it.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • sega 26 Mar 2014 11:17:46 890 posts
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    Bremenacht wrote:

    I love the title of the film and it's possible implications, but those implications never really made it onto the film. It's an Alien film. Aliens -vs- PredatorsEngineers, with humans tossed in for thrills.
    I mean as in a typical alien movie. I've seen 6 films where someone gets facehugged and then we have aliens running around. I preferred that all that was removed and the focus shifted on the engineers/space jockeys.
  • nickthegun 26 Mar 2014 11:17:49 60,118 posts
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    It was a bad choice. The original script can be found online and virtually every plothole in the film was made by the changes made to it.

    it did need some doctoring but, largely, the things they changed were completely the wrong ones.

    http://io9.com/5960275/what-did-damon-lindelof-add-to-prometheus-the-biggest-differences-with-the-original-draft

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