What's America's problem? Page 4

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  • Khanivor 24 Jul 2009 00:46:44 40,402 posts
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    The_Escapist wrote:
    Khanivor wrote:
    Just because you have insurance doesn't mean you are covered.
    preexistingconditionlol


    Pah, you don't even need that. The job of an insurance company assessor is to stop your claim, or to pay out as little as possible. Even if you are fully covered they can wiggle out of paying for enough stuff that even though you are paying a few thousand bucks a month for insurance you come out of hospital owing enough for a Lamborghini.

    I'll deal with BGiE's post after dinner. Let's hope I'm not in an accident on the way home.

  • DaisyD 24 Jul 2009 00:48:18 11,818 posts
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    Xerx3s wrote:
    DaisyD wrote:
    FWB wrote:
    The NHS has its faults, but it ain't half bad.

    And there are plenty of loop holes that can be easily used. For example if you have to wait more than 3 months (?) for surgery, you can nominate another hospital in Europe that can do it quicker (and is usually nicer) and the NHS pay for you to go there and have your treatment.

    Not really a loophole is it? More like standard regulations. It's pretty much default here to ship patients to Germany or Poland because it's equal/better quality service and cheaper as well. They have the overcapacity and all that.

    I've seen something on TV where a mini-bus of OAPs from somewhere like Eastbourne all went on a surgery holiday to a very nice hospital in Belgium because it could be done much much quicker.

    TBF I''ve had a fair bit of surgery in the last few years and I've never had to wait too long. One hospital also pre-booked me a bed for the night for surgery that should be in-out same day because they knew how general anaesthetic can drop my blood pressure right down in advance. Didn't need it in the end though.
  • FWB 24 Jul 2009 00:48:52 43,876 posts
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    Pain is good. It leads to character. Everyone should be shot in the face when they turn 21.
  • Bill-Gates-is-Evil 24 Jul 2009 00:50:46 8,935 posts
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    Well I would be massively surprised if someone on this forum agrees with me. I'm not trying to convince anyone (quite impossible), but these are my opinions as fucked up as you think they are.
  • DaisyD 24 Jul 2009 00:52:34 11,818 posts
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    BGiE - I may love you, mate, but that last post was a tad retarded. Do you not know about the level of research that goes on in this country into curing cancer (as per your example)? America is not the only country developing and researching stuff you know.

    On that note, I'm off to bed.
  • RedSparrows 24 Jul 2009 00:53:35 22,071 posts
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    Bill, social medical aid does not diminish responsibility. That's ignoring your very own contention that pain breeds experience. People don't want to be hurt, no matter the cost. Let alone the fact people are afflicted by disease they cannot help, and often wouldn't be able to treat.

    I have libertarian tendencies at various points, but I disagree strongly there.

    Also, why are teh big pharma companies over in Europe now, not the USA?
  • Xerx3s 24 Jul 2009 00:59:52 23,944 posts
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    Psychotext wrote:
    Bill Gates is Evil wrote:
    My politics is that of a libertarian. My core political belief is that people should not be compelled to do anything, and that the government only has one proper role: to protect individuals from physical force.

    Now, of the 50 million uninsured, about a third of them are illegal aliens. About another third are people my age that think they're invincible and would rather spend the money on videogames. The rest can't afford it/don't have a job.

    See if you fuck up, you experience pain. Pain is good: it provides information that guides you to recorrect your course. If someone uninsured needs medical attention, thats very stressful. Good. Let them feel that stress: it's telling them they're doing something wrong.

    Blanket medical care disperses individual responsibility. This contributes to an immature society that act like children, with the government being mom and dad.

    Now understand if something horrible happens to you, you'll get treated regardless. They don't turn you out if you've just taken a bullet to the leg.

    I know I'm stating wild crazy beliefs on a forum that is decidedly much further left than the country I come from. But giving somebody goods and services they haven't earned is dulling them of the pain they need to experience to properly correct their life. It's the medical equivalent of giving someone pills to dull the pain of a toothache, but not addressing the core problem.

    Then there is the issue of: what will nationalizing health care do to the pace at which medical technology progresses? I mean, it's easy for Europe to have cheap socialized health care while American's foot such a massive part of the R&D part of the bill. We invest and risk our money building new technologies, you guys simply have to pay for the finished product. How many millions will die if say, cures and treaments for Cancer are delayed 10 years because the current politician in office wants companies to cut costs so as not to burden their government balance sheet?

    Relative poverty is such a sham and a complete tribalist mindset. I'd so much rather welfare money go to Africa than American's who in a vast majority of other countries would be considered rich.
    I'm not going to comment on that. Suffice to say that my already low opinion of you has got considerably lower BGiE.

    Well, I'll indulge myself for one more time.

    First of all: your claims about those uninsured are highly dubious. It is far more likely that illegal people are not even in the records.

    Second: Your comment about pain and stress isn't even remotely relative to the topic.

    Third: Your statement about blanket care is a whole load of indoctrinated bs. We have one of the best shielding governments on the planet and we also have some of the highest ratios of self-employed. I'm 25 and I own 2 companies, what have you achieved under your system?

    Fourth: As a liberal I have a good distaste for both left and right and I am the first to say that something given has no worth. Which is why our healthcare system has so much worth. Every one of us and all those before us have worked damn hard for it. It is you that is actually to lazy to solve your problems.

    Fifth: You claim that your system gives you R&D. Some of the most leading med tech companies come from Europe. Phillips for one has developed equipment that makes everything else primitive. These money pots are filled with astronomical figures, figures often far higher than those of a lot of the leading banks. What do you suppose happens with all that money? Do you really think that it's just lingering there? Your last line tells me that you have no clue what you are talking about. In fact, the whole next part is bs.
  • Bill-Gates-is-Evil 24 Jul 2009 01:00:27 8,935 posts
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    Daisy I know all western european countries perform and invest in research. And good things have come out of it. But the amount of money pumped into R&D by American firms blows the entire continent of Europe out of the water: and it's not just quantitatively more, but its a much higher degree of research. The worlds smartest doctors come to america and to do their research. Walking around Texas Medical Center is like being in the United Nations. Just complete diversity, the greatest minds in the medical field gather and do really great things there, things your free health service enjoy the benefit of but paid for none of it.

    It's composed of 47 institutions (and always growing) and being those greedy Americans that we are, all 47 are not-for-profit institutions.
  • Xerx3s 24 Jul 2009 01:02:24 23,944 posts
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    DaisyD wrote:
    Xerx3s wrote:
    DaisyD wrote:
    FWB wrote:
    The NHS has its faults, but it ain't half bad.

    And there are plenty of loop holes that can be easily used. For example if you have to wait more than 3 months (?) for surgery, you can nominate another hospital in Europe that can do it quicker (and is usually nicer) and the NHS pay for you to go there and have your treatment.

    Not really a loophole is it? More like standard regulations. It's pretty much default here to ship patients to Germany or Poland because it's equal/better quality service and cheaper as well. They have the overcapacity and all that.

    I've seen something on TV where a mini-bus of OAPs from somewhere like Eastbourne all went on a surgery holiday to a very nice hospital in Belgium because it could be done much much quicker.

    TBF I''ve had a fair bit of surgery in the last few years and I've never had to wait too long. One hospital also pre-booked me a bed for the night for surgery that should be in-out same day because they knew how general anaesthetic can drop my blood pressure right down in advance. Didn't need it in the end though.

    It's a good system tbf, there is a lot of difference in capacity in different fields so it's good to shuffle people around. It's cheaper to exchange than to have them waiting for a local place.
  • FWB 24 Jul 2009 01:03:59 43,876 posts
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    But the amount of money pumped into R&D by American firms blows the entire continent of Europe out of the water: and it's not just quantitatively more, but its a much higher degree of research. The worlds smartest doctors come to america and to do their research.

    Ahem.
  • Psychotext 24 Jul 2009 01:11:35 53,855 posts
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    There's one big reason why pharma / medical firms flock to the US. It has the most developed / legally protected patent system in the world.
  • Bill-Gates-is-Evil 24 Jul 2009 01:15:58 8,935 posts
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    "About 38% of the uninsured live in households with incomes of $50,000 or more."

    Keep buying those video games, mommy and daddy are coming with the health insurance
  • Genji 24 Jul 2009 01:16:35 19,691 posts
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    Bill Gates is Evil wrote:
    Yo, poor people!

    Get richer, stupid!
  • Bill-Gates-is-Evil 24 Jul 2009 01:20:52 8,935 posts
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    Not that any of this will matter seeing as how the world is ending a few years, as soon as the Jew-Lizard-Seeing Eye reaches it's zenith after the constellation of Burgundy causes a... alright Im done
  • Khanivor 24 Jul 2009 01:31:46 40,402 posts
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    Bill Gates is Evil wrote:
    My politics is that of a libertarian. My core political belief is that people should not be compelled to do anything, and that the government only has one proper role: to protect individuals from physical force.

    I take it you went to a private school and didn't drive on any roads to get there?

    Bill Gates is Evil wrote:
    Now, of the 50 million uninsured, about a third of them are illegal aliens. About another third are people my age that think they're invincible and would rather spend the money on videogames. The rest can't afford it/don't have a job.

    Things I've learned about Bill - he watches Lou Dobbs.

    Why should those who cannot afford healthcare have to suffer?

    Bill Gates is Evil wrote:
    See if you fuck up, you experience pain. Pain is good: it provides information that guides you to recorrect your course. If someone uninsured needs medical attention, thats very stressful. Good. Let them feel that stress: it's telling them they're doing something wrong.

    So when someone through no fault of their own is in accident they should rejoice their pain? When someone develops a disease they should be thankful for the lesson nature is teaching them? When someone is exercising and has a heart attack they should learn the lesson exercise is bad?

    Bill Gates is Evil wrote:
    Blanket medical care disperses individual responsibility. This contributes to an immature society that act like children, with the government being mom and dad.

    So that explains why the US has such a horrific number of injuries from automobile accidents - the lack of universal healthcare makes the drive sensibly.

    Bill Gates is Evil wrote:
    Now understand if something horrible happens to you, you'll get treated regardless. They don't turn you out if you've just taken a bullet to the leg.

    And you will get a medical bill for tens of thousands of dollars a few weeks later. You will also have to forgo physical therapy to allow you to regain full use of your leg.

    Bill Gates is Evil wrote:
    I know I'm stating wild crazy beliefs on a forum that is decidedly much further left than the country I come from. But giving somebody goods and services they haven't earned is dulling them of the pain they need to experience to properly correct their life. It's the medical equivalent of giving someone pills to dull the pain of a toothache, but not addressing the core problem.

    Again with the insane assertion all medical needs are the result of intentional action. Tell that to the parents of children born with congenital conditions, for starters.

    Bill Gates is Evil wrote:
    Then there is the issue of: what will nationalizing health care do to the pace at which medical technology progresses? I mean, it's easy for Europe to have cheap socialized health care while American's foot such a massive part of the R&D part of the bill. We invest and risk our money building new technologies, you guys simply have to pay for the finished product. How many millions will die if say, cures and treaments for Cancer are delayed 10 years because the current politician in office wants companies to cut costs so as not to burden their government balance sheet?

    The price of the R&D is much higher then it needs to be because of the drain caused to the national economy the tens of millions of uninsured and the gross inflation of costs for those who are insured. If the US was unburdened by these costs there's a good chance the massively increased amount of money available might have led to a cure for cancer by now.

    Bill Gates is Evil wrote:
    Relative poverty is such a sham and a complete tribalist mindset. I'd so much rather welfare money go to Africa than American's who in a vast majority of other countries would be considered rich.

    When you are dying from a treatable disease it matters not where you are. I'm sure smart Africans would prefer every American was able to work to their full potential, unburdened by fear of risk or slowed down by untreated medical problems or prevented from even working by a treatable medical condition. This would increase the nation's GDP and free up an awful lot more money to be donated to those in need in other nations.
  • cubbymoore 24 Jul 2009 01:49:32 36,468 posts
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    I imagine most Americans will keep their insurance for however long it takes them to go to the hospital next. That's provided the new bill isn't the big watered down fuck up it seems to be shaping up to be at the moment.

    My ex (a yank) had a condition that required pills and her bills were astronomical, but when she had to top up over here she paid a pittance even accounting for the exchange rate.
  • El_MUERkO 24 Jul 2009 01:49:43 16,956 posts
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    HULK SMASH

    /goes to bed
  • squirrel.kisses 24 Jul 2009 02:33:13 274 posts
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    Universal health-care is socialism.
    And it's as liberal as it gets in mainstream politics over here so pretty much all Republicans have jumped on it as bad. First it's against their policy of every man for himself, and it's backed by the liberal Democrats so it's evil. And someone got it into people's minds that it's socialism to the max.

    /sigh
  • Bill-Gates-is-Evil 24 Jul 2009 02:36:11 8,935 posts
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    squirrel.kisses wrote:
    Universal health-care is socialism.
    And it's as liberal as it gets in mainstream politics over here so pretty much all Republicans have jumped on it as bad. First it's against their policy of every man for himself, and it's backed by the liberal Democrats so it's evil. And someone got it into people's minds that it's socialism to the max.

    /sigh

    Yes, it's really quite that simple.
  • Red-Moose 24 Jul 2009 02:40:29 5,346 posts
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    America's problem is mostly due to the racist White Castle. They discriminate against round burgers in favour of square and it has continued to wreak an entirely precedented tear in American society.
  • Rodney 24 Jul 2009 06:21:43 1,850 posts
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    Bill,

    I assume you believe armed services/national security should be provided for collectively. Why do you not feel like this also is an infringement on your personal liberty?

    I am a libertarian myself but I really don’t get this American 'Right' version of ‘freedom’ because by its logic, services such as municpal run refuse collection are some how a slippery slope towards communism.

    More pragmatism and less dogma is needed I think.
  • azurelas_2 24 Jul 2009 06:23:34 1,108 posts
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    BGiE, could you please explain why healthcare cannot be free? The American system simply doesn't work, every other G-8 country has a state-run healthcare system and they appear satisfactory.

    I'm very liberal in my views, but if I may:
    My politics is that of a libertarian. My core political belief is that people should not be compelled to do anything, and that the government only has one proper role: to protect individuals from physical force.

    Doesn't that include sickness? Because let's face it, cancer etc. isn't caused/provoked by playing videogames. I'd rather pay slightly higher taxes (but never over 33%, irregardless of income) and be sure of the very best treatment in the world than the random bureaucracy that you call "the best healthcare system in the world".

    Bill Gates is Evil wrote
    Blanket medical care disperses individual responsibility. This contributes to an immature society that act like children, with the government being mom and dad.

    Individual responsibility ends with finances as far as I'm concerned. I don't see how taking out a loan you simply can't afford is relevant with developing a life-threatening brain tumor.

    And as Khanivor says, the world's leading pharmaceutical are European/based in Europe. Unless Americans are paying for it of course.

    Bill Gates is Evil wrote:
    Relative poverty is such a sham and a complete tribalist mindset. I'd so much rather welfare money go to Africa than American's who in a vast majority of other countries would be considered rich

    Just out of curiosity, am I wrong to assume that you're from a relatively or even very well-off family? Otherwise how'd you define "relative poverty"?

    Edit; Clarity.
  • Deleted user 24 July 2009 07:25:18
    All this overnight?

    Yikes.

    Great reading though, guys. BGIE, however, sorry dude... but chalk up another one who just can't abide your ideas. Payment in the UK for NI (which covers the NHS and other services, such as jobseekers allowance) is negligible compared to the resounding medical costs people get billed for in the US.

    As others have already said far more eloquently than I, it's a holdover from the anti-red days and a rather bizarre, hypocritical anti-socialist stance, considering other tax-paid institutions in the US, that affects even those of middle incomes at times should insurance not pay for their issue. It's subject to abuse and roundly is abused, knowing what I know from friends a relatives in the US. They're not wasting their money on computer games, either.
  • m0th3rfunk3r 24 Jul 2009 07:59:33 464 posts
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    You can argue the politics of socialism, communism, capitalism and the benefits of each in their ability to deliver health care on any given level you choose. Nothing to any great extent is every going to change in the US

    The simple fact is this. Follow the money.

    Doctors in charge of giving little Jimmy those ritalin pills he deperately needs for his parents to be able to control him were supplied by a doctor that works for a BUSINESS (hospital) whose partner is the drug company that supplies the pills. The more pills the business buys the cheaper the rate they get. The more pills the drug company sell the more money they have to buy advertising time on television: The very medium that initially told you that your child has a problem and to go to the doctor to have it "cured" by taking a pill


    Its a cultural thing. Americans seem to think that the world is owned and run by "GOD Corp." a benevalent corporation whose job it is to make everyone better by making more and more profit so that it can "share" the R&D to make people better.....

    Where as the reality is that corporations that are setup in the american healthcare system are designed to make money off the back of sick people


    The way I see it healthcare isnt a political or financial or R&D choice. Its a humanitarian one. As a society we either CHOOSE to help the sick and dying and ease their pain or we choose to let them suffer and die a needless saddistic death.



  • quantumsheep 24 Jul 2009 08:12:37 3,127 posts
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    Why, Bill, why??? :(
  • FWB 24 Jul 2009 08:16:05 43,876 posts
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    Some people just like to be controversial.
  • Telepathic.Geometry 24 Jul 2009 08:21:42 11,278 posts
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    I like the way m0th3rfunk3r puts it. :)

    If we stop thinking in dogmatic terms about all this, and stop thinking in political terms about it, the bottom line is that as a nation, we are one big community that should be looking after each other.

    If we don't look after each other, then what is the value in being a nation. Now, Americans don't seem to have a problem with everyone paying taxes to build an army to protect the country's citizens, and nobody's outraged that the taxes are used to build roads and railway lines so people can get around, and I suppose nobody is up in arms about water being piped around for everybody's benefit, and so on and so forth...

    So why is it that something as basic as keeping the nation's people healthy is such a low priority? I find BGiE's opinion pretty fascinating, because he's arguing a case I would say is pretty untenable, but with conviction, so kudos for that. :)

    So, BGiE, please tell me, why is it okay to spend tax-money on protecting people from foreign threats ('terrorists') and domestic crime, but not against viruses and diseases? I don't follow you.

    || PSN Barrysama || NNID Barrysama ||

  • smoothpete 24 Jul 2009 08:43:25 31,361 posts
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    Why stop at medical insurance, disband the military paid for by taxes and introduce defense insurance for individulas and give Blackwater and other PMCs the contract. That's following the amercian right's frankly absurb line of argument regarding healthcare

    “You know all that money we spend on the military ever year -- trillions of dollars? Instead, if we use this money to feed and clothe the poor of this world, which it would do many times over, then we can explore space, inner and outer, together, as one race.”
  • TechnoHippy 24 Jul 2009 09:00:56 14,698 posts
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    Bill Gates is Evil wrote:
    My politics is that of a libertarian. My core political belief is that people should not be compelled to do anything, and that the government only has one proper role: to protect individuals from physical force.

    So what about victims of crime? Bio-terrorism? Bioligical outbreaks? Injured soldiers?

    All are victims of physical force that require a health system to support or mitigate them.

    My books, contests, reviews and author interviews on my blog

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