What's America's problem? Page 175

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  • mcmonkeyplc 2 Jan 2014 16:25:57 39,467 posts
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    Yes, I'm with you on that but it's not exactly top of my to do list.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • LeoliansBro 2 Jan 2014 16:31:25 44,512 posts
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    (Middle class stiffness) I'd only be happy with legalising cannabis in the UK if it came with an absolute motherfuck of a tax stuck on top.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • mcmonkeyplc 2 Jan 2014 16:38:40 39,467 posts
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    It would have at least the same tax as cigarettes in the UK. Need to pay for their lung cancer treatment.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • Khanivor 2 Jan 2014 17:05:13 40,951 posts
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    Criminalising drugs only outsources supply to the worst elements of scoiety while simultaneously putting great pressure on the edges of society to mimic them.

    Legalise it all. Treat the diseases, not he symptoms.
  • LeoliansBro 2 Jan 2014 17:11:38 44,512 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:

    Legalise it all. Treat the diseases, not he symptoms.
    You realise your argument is the exact opposite of 'prevention is better than cure' right?

    Hell, let's legalise drunk driving as well and just deal with all the RTA fatalities as they arrive. I'm sure you agree.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Khanivor 2 Jan 2014 17:18:24 40,951 posts
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    False equivalence is false.

    We have tried prevention. We have tried preventing humans from doing something they have done throughout their history, from doing things that arguably have helped to advance and crystalise our societies throughout history.

    Prevention only stops drugs from being safe, from being provided by responsible and accountable persons and from contributing to the financial welfare. At the moment, they are the opposite of all these things; unsafe, provided by murderers of no morality and costing us all a shit ton of money.

    If you want to reduce drug abuse then perhaps we could work towards reducing the aspects of society that make the repeated chemical escape from it so appealing to so many people.
  • drip 2 Jan 2014 17:24:52 4,309 posts
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    By throwing a big bomb on it?
  • LeoliansBro 2 Jan 2014 17:30:48 44,512 posts
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    We've tried preventing drink driving as well but people still do that. I certainly agree that we need to focus on the societal reasons behind drug abuse, but legalising drugs is not the first step down that path. And as with all such things this is likely to be less about your libertarian views on the freedoms we deserve in society, and more about your wanting to get weed more easily.

    I'm prepared to be wrong on that last point though, and apologise if it isn't the case for you.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • drip 2 Jan 2014 17:59:44 4,309 posts
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    If you ask me, I'm not for legalising everything, or legalising every drug. It's just about modest legalisation of modest drugs. Cannabis is a drug, it's not harmless, but it's far more harmless than alcohol, which is a harder drug.

    The ban on alcohol in the USA shew that it does more harm than good to outlaw widely used (and arguably tolerable) drugs. And alcohol causes much more harm than cannabis.

    So why spend lots of money for outlawing cannabis, supporting crime by doing so, and criminalising people who just enjoy being stoned sometimes? Everyone could just relax, it could earn taxpayer money instead of wasting it, and it would allow people to just smoke and live in peace with each other. Live and let live, and if it involves a bit of weed, well then just relax.

    I don't accept the slippery slope argument either. Legalising cannabis is no step on the stairway of legalising crack or meth. They also said legalisation of homosexuality would lead to legalisation of paederasty, but in fact, homosexual rights are increasing while paederasty has become actually more criminalised at the same time, and thankfully so. Progress doesn't mean simply allowing everything, it means rethinking about what is okay and what is not.
  • kalel 2 Jan 2014 18:06:30 88,457 posts
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    The best argument for legalisation of all drugs is that prohibition doesn't work, so if people are going to do it anyway you might as well make sure criminals don't profit of it, and those that want to do drugs get good quality "safe" product.

    So in that respect I agree with Khani.

    However, to expand on DrStrangelove's comment, I think careful selection of which drugs should be legalised could result in people no longer choosing to do some of the harder drugs, or a lot of people anyway. The rise of heroin and cocaine came during the prohibition of alcohol in the first place.
  • drip 2 Jan 2014 18:15:12 4,309 posts
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    It's not without problems, and again, I'm not someone to call for legalisation of everything. It's just that some comparably harmless drugs, most importantly drugs that are widely used anyway, shouldn't be criminalised.

    People need drugs, every society has its drugs. Western/Christian society's drug is alcohol, and I do believe banning every drug doesn't do any good really.

    The consequence being, allow modest drugs while fighting hard ones. Which inevitably results in legalising cannabis, actually one of the least harmful drugs of all.
  • kalel 2 Jan 2014 18:20:19 88,457 posts
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    I was agreeing with you, in case that wasn't clear.

    Although I still think your views on defection are repugnant.
  • drip 2 Jan 2014 18:28:40 4,309 posts
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    @kalel

    I thought so, but since among reasonable individuals there can be no 100% agreement, I felt the urge to clarify myself again. With no intent to argue against you in particular.

    Curious about what you mean with my "views on defection" though. Not being sarcastic this time, I honestly don't know what you mean.
  • Deleted user 2 January 2014 18:44:15
    What's America's problem?

    The fact that they are in a sh*t load of debt and don't appear to have a clue as to how to repay it, thus they need to come up with ways of using the rest of the world. The rest of the world is becoming smaller and smaller, and more savy to the way the US works. That's my take ;D
  • Deleted user 2 January 2014 18:48:55
    china is racking up serious amounts of debt now as well because of the slowdown in exports.
  • RedSparrows 2 Jan 2014 18:51:41 23,328 posts
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    ILLUMINATI
  • kalel 2 Jan 2014 19:34:34 88,457 posts
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    DrStrangelove wrote:
    @kalel

    I thought so, but since among reasonable individuals there can be no 100% agreement, I felt the urge to clarify myself again. With no intent to argue against you in particular.

    Curious about what you mean with my "views on defection" though. Not being sarcastic this time, I honestly don't know what you mean.
    Hah, bloody auto correct. I meant defecation! ;-)
  • drip 2 Jan 2014 19:39:39 4,309 posts
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    Ha, I already wanted to post a comment about if you meant defecation.

    Still, what's wrong about my views on defecation? I think my approach to the matter is very natural.

    edit: defectors need to be hung, obviously.

    Edited by DrStrangelove at 19:54:22 02-01-2014
  • Blotto 2 Jan 2014 19:50:02 2,776 posts
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    In my mind, just legalise Cannabis. With that and Alcohol you've got enough to play around with and take you're mind off life for awhile without giving everyone free reign to be off their tits all the time.
  • LeoliansBro 2 Jan 2014 20:04:03 44,512 posts
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    For those who say cannabis is less 'damaging' than alcohol, whether to your personal health, your friends, society in some hypothetical legalised future, or whatever, can I ask what you're basing that on?

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Blotto 2 Jan 2014 20:20:24 2,776 posts
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    Whilst I don't agree that Cannabis is less damaging than Alcohol, I'd put the two together as "Not that bad really" because you can pretty much choose how effected by it you want to be.

    I'm not drug connoisseur by any means but it seems that with Alchohol you can get a bit merry with a few pints or get fucked on hard liquor, with Cannabis you can have a spliff or you can do bong hits all night whereas with other drugs, i.e Coke, E etc you pretty much just take the pill or do the line. There's no scope for just "having a quiet one, doing a little bit of coke", you either do it or you don't.

    I could be wrong of course, I'm sure there's people here who can let me know.
  • LeoliansBro 2 Jan 2014 20:26:15 44,512 posts
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    I'd broadly agree but I'd say that cannabis throws you pretty hard as well, and lingers longer.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • urban 2 Jan 2014 20:46:01 10,978 posts
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    @mcmonkeyplc Because God wills it? Religion, god...gettit? :)
  • drip 2 Jan 2014 20:50:23 4,309 posts
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    @LeoliansBro

    From both personal experience and official stats, cannabis seems to be much less lethal than either alcohol or tobacco. I can only be arsed to post the Wikipedia article here, but whatever and wherever you google about it etc. there's always consensus that alcohol is more dangerous and causes more deaths.

    Don't get me wrong, I've seen cannabis pulp friends' minds to some extent, but not nearly as much as the ones I lost to alcohol, or my uncle who died from years of alcohol abuse in 2012.

    From purely personal experience, I think alcohol can make you more aggressive, over-confident, and most crucially, invite to drunk driving. Cannabis in my experience mostly leads to just being stoned, discouraging from confrontation, going outside or driving car. Also, stoned people tend to not choke to death from their own puke.
  • Khanivor 2 Jan 2014 21:08:54 40,951 posts
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    What's more damaging to society; the guy who does blow or the guy who does blow, is arrested, imprisoned for 18 months and then can never get a real job for the rest of his life, going in and out of prison instead?

    Drugs can and do cause great harm. The way we deal with the potential risk causes real and certain harm far beyond the reach of those doing the actual drugs. It's ass backward and needs to be fixed.

    A problem of America is the war on drugs and the way it has corrupted so much. That's why it has such a horrendous prison population, with many put their to make fucking money. That is fucked up.

    A small example of how it fucks innocent people can be seen in the efforts to require a prescription for psuedo-ephedrine. This is an attempt to stop small shake and bake meth operations from getting a vital ingredient. So, you wind up with lots of regular folks unable to easily access medicine while the demand for meth remains the same and rather than Billy Bob's special it's stuff made on an industrial scale, of far higher potency and purity, shipped into the US by those swell human beings from the Mexican cartels.

    Our approach is similar to blood letting. We think we are doing good but we are just killing ourselves instead.

    Legalise it all. Take the drug market out of the hands of the criminals and the fallout from abuse out of the hands of the justice system.
  • kalel 2 Jan 2014 21:09:29 88,457 posts
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    On a very basic level you can't OD on cannabis, whereas hundreds die from alcohol poisoning every year.
  • Khanivor 2 Jan 2014 21:14:04 40,951 posts
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    Then there's the tens of thousands whose lives are cut short by complications from alcohol abuse.

    If we regulated drugs based on their legality then booze and fags would be Class A. Only problem is, so would paracetamol and other favoured methods of self expiration.
  • LeoliansBro 2 Jan 2014 21:19:37 44,512 posts
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    Yes but you can't OD from alcohol, or nicotine, you can kill yourself but only eventually It's a horribly nanny state thing to say but we have no idea what the long term health effects of weed are, and we can't just throw it out there like DDT and hope everyone's fine in 50 years.

    And that's really just an aside - I personally think the impact of legal cannabis use on society is the real great unknown and the real risk here. In terms of impact 30 minutes of smoking weed hits harder and lasts longer than 30 minutes of doing anything now legal. I'm using time as a yardstick because that's the only real constant we have here. Compare a lunch hour in which you have three pints vs a lunch hour in which you have a spliff - who has a useful afternoon?

    The only argument that stacks up is kalel's first one - people are doing it anyway, and funding crime right now in doing so, so let's bring it all into the light and regulate it. Problem there is you're essentially admitting that you can't enforce your own laws, which is brutal realpolitik at best and at worst a frank admission of impotence and the need to cater for a minority who cannot be controlled, so let's just say we're fine with it.

    Edited by LeoliansBro at 21:20:21 02-01-2014

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Khanivor 2 Jan 2014 21:22:36 40,951 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    Yes but you can't OD from alcohol, or nicotine,
    While I wouldn't be shocked to hear someone unaware of nicotine poisoning I'm amazed to see you deny the existence of alcohol poisoning.
  • LeoliansBro 2 Jan 2014 21:25:57 44,512 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    LeoliansBro wrote:
    Yes but you can't OD from alcohol, or nicotine,
    While I wouldn't be shocked to hear someone unaware of nicotine poisoning I'm amazed to see you deny the existence of alcohol poisoning.
    OK, I'm keen to learn. I'm going to OD on cigarettes tonight. How many do I need to buy.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

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