What's America's problem? Page 162

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  • Deleted user 30 December 2012 23:49:53
    WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE
  • Tom_Servo 30 Dec 2012 23:53:10 15,532 posts
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    Oh well, we had a good run.
  • Deleted user 30 December 2012 23:54:46
    But in seriousness, from what I understand of it, it's the expiration date of temporary tax laws and spending cuts, and because of how US government works Obama can't just extend them as he sees fit, he needs agreement from Congress and the like.

    I dunno, I haven't followed the cliff stuff that closely because I can't really be arsed. It sort of reminds me of the recession - lots and lots of doom mongering and end-of-the-world-everyone-will-be-flat-broke talk when in reality all that happened to most people is they had to buy a slightly less expensive HDTV than they wanted.

    Edited by meme at 23:55:52 30-12-2012
  • Bremenacht 30 Dec 2012 23:58:52 15,753 posts
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    It'll mean Obama and the Dems will put forward new bills to reverse the stuff they didn't want to happen, which the Senate(?) GoP will then seek to reject or amend, and they'll keep going round in circles. Or something like that. Newsmedia will find new stuff to scare people with.

    Once an eagle taught me courage. And I will never forget that day

  • Bremenacht 30 Dec 2012 23:59:58 15,753 posts
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    Ah.

    Once an eagle taught me courage. And I will never forget that day

  • Khanivor 31 Dec 2012 00:11:16 39,869 posts
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    One thing I know it will mean is that people on extended unemployment benefits will lose their income.

    By fuck we don't want people making over 400 grand a year to have to pay an extra couple of percent on their earnings over 400 grand but people who are a hundred bucks away from living on the street? Fuck those guys.

    Brem's right tho. If the cliff is sailed over then most of the results of sequestration will be parceled out into various bills. This will allow the worst effects to be avoided while simultaneously giving the polical parties the chance to claim victories and for the gravy train for corporate and privileged America to keep on trucking while the working stiffs, (95% of the population), continue to get stiffer.

    At this point I'm open to the suggestion American politics is nothing more than a show put on by the media businesses. The votes were still being counted when the news media began to froth over the Fiscal Cliff. If it's avoided the only people who will benefit are the American public. The news media will lose out on an easy story; imagine all the drama as the politicians duke it over the next twelve months to try and repair the damage, (that they themselves intentionally and deliberately created).

    If anything needs to be killed with fire it's the owners of the US media and their politicians lackeys.
  • senso-ji 31 Dec 2012 00:37:53 5,303 posts
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    Didn't Congress have almost two years to agree on something? Why are they leaving to the last minute?
  • Deleted user 31 December 2012 00:38:58
    Because they didn't agree on anything, and leaving it to the last minute means they can bully Obama into agreeing into what they like, rather than coming to an actual compromise.
  • senso-ji 31 Dec 2012 00:41:51 5,303 posts
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    But won't the fiscal cliff push taxes up for everyone, including the super rich, and hence the GOP lose anyway?
  • Deleted user 31 December 2012 00:44:01
    Presumably they're hoping that they can keep the tax breaks for the super rich by using this tactic of rejecting everything that doesn't include it.

    I dunno, I've given up trying to work out how the minds of the GOP work. It's like watching pigeons fight over tramp vomit.
  • senso-ji 31 Dec 2012 00:48:55 5,303 posts
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    Obama and the Democrats seem weak to me. The Republicans did the same thing in 2011 and the President conceded. They are doing exactly the same thing again and they might win again. This undermines Obama's position and mocks all those who voted for him.

    But then again, as a second term President he probably has less influence now than he did in November, so he might not care either way.
  • Deleted user 31 December 2012 01:02:58
    It's really the unbalanced nature of the government branches. Dems have the legislative powers to suggest new laws, GOPs have the legislative powers to block them. It's an uphill struggle introducing anything. The real problem comes from the sheer (and increasing) divide between the two ideologies. The mass gulf between left and right just reduces the entire process to a shitty power struggle. Needs either reform or a third middle-line party to rise up and counter the differences.

    That might not strictly apply to the fiscal cliff shit, like I said I'm not following what's going on with that, but that's the bigger problem overall with trying to run a government.

    Another problem is that the House of Reps is supposed to represent the penniless plebs, the Senate supposed to represent the wealthy and powerful (the idea was to have the former be passionate and reactionary, the latter to be logical and thoughtful, creating a solid balance), but the gulf (physically, financially and ideologically) between those two has never been wider either. So there's gridlock all around, really.

    Edited by meme at 01:05:52 31-12-2012
  • wizbob 31 Dec 2012 01:58:59 762 posts
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  • Dirtbox 31 Dec 2012 02:25:17 76,329 posts
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    senso-ji wrote:
    Obama and the Democrats seem weak to me. The Republicans did the same thing in 2011 and the President conceded. They are doing exactly the same thing again and they might win again. This undermines Obama's position and mocks all those who voted for him.

    But then again, as a second term President he probably has less influence now than he did in November, so he might not care either way.
    The Democrats seem weak? The Republicans entire campaign was and continues to be "They're doing it wrong" without having any cohesive argument whatsoever as to why or how it should be done.

    Edited by Dirtbox at 02:25:30 31-12-2012

    +1 / Like / Tweet this post

  • Khanivor 31 Dec 2012 03:46:51 39,869 posts
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    And yet in the negotiations we have seen the Democrats offer to link Social Security to a much stingier payment increase scale, ask for 600 billion less in revenue and shift on tax increases from 250k to 400k. The latter was a major bullet point in Obama's re-election and less than two months passed before he himself offered it up for sacrifice.

    The Republicans lost the popular vote for six of the last seven presidential elections. They got a notably smaller share of the vote for the House. They lost seats in the Senate. They haven't struck a deal. They know this is a game of chicken and they know that if they lose, God will lift them up into heaven anyway, a solace that doesn't put a steady hand on the Democrats.

    Still, the realist in my would not at all be surprised if they come up with a deal tomorrow, at the last moment. Like the debt ceiling fiasco of two years ago. The deal will be terrible for the economy and kick the can further down the road, thus increasing the erosion of the effectiveness of government.

    It's a fucking mess. On the plus side, no matter what happens, it seems unlikely Boner will still have a job in 2013. Take what you can, I say :)
  • NEW-AHN 31 Dec 2012 05:09:20 8 posts
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    Its A Good Topic ... Iranian Think That America 100% Is Heaven :D
    its the fact that people Think That Something That They Didnt Have Is The Best

    War ... War Never Changes

  • LeoliansBro 31 Dec 2012 08:23:14 41,863 posts
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    US used to see Checks and Balances as a good thing, because it maintained the status quo and prevented rash decisions. Problem is, given how polarised current US politics is, it can also be perverted as a system into gridlock.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Mola_Ram 31 Dec 2012 11:17:56 6,211 posts
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    There are a bunch of proposals going around to help address filibuster abuse in the senate. Hope they get some traction, because it really is getting quite ridiculous.
  • Deleted user 31 December 2012 13:04:38
    The filibuster became useless when someone worked you just had to announce the threat of doing one to usually accomplish the effects (raising the voting threshold higher than its support) rather than actually going through with it.
  • senso-ji 31 Dec 2012 21:27:59 5,303 posts
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    Breaking News on the BBC: House of Representatives will not vote on
    Monday, so the US goes over the fiscal cliff at midnight.
  • Khanivor 31 Dec 2012 21:52:08 39,869 posts
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    Woo! You go GOP!!!
  • Feanor 1 Jan 2013 00:23:29 13,921 posts
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    Good riddance to the ridiculous Bush tax cuts that blew out the deficit while also generating absolutely pathetic job growth.

    Edited by Feanor at 00:23:43 01-01-2013
  • Khanivor 1 Jan 2013 00:25:00 39,869 posts
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    Tax cuts equals growth!
  • cubbymoore 1 Jan 2013 03:44:58 36,441 posts
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    Debt growth.
  • NEW-AHN 1 Jan 2013 07:59:21 8 posts
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    America See All Countries job people and ... But In It self all Of People Killed :D

    War ... War Never Changes

  • dominalien 1 Jan 2013 08:16:24 6,741 posts
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    Well said. I think. Although you might want to reconsider the happy face when talking about people getting killed.

    PSN: DonOsito

  • Bremenacht 1 Jan 2013 13:21:18 15,753 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    And yet in the negotiations we have seen the Democrats offer to link Social Security to a much stingier payment increase scale, ask for 600 billion less in revenue and shift on tax increases from 250k to 400k. The latter was a major bullet point in Obama's re-election and less than two months passed before he himself offered it up for sacrifice.

    The Republicans lost the popular vote for six of the last seven presidential elections. They got a notably smaller share of the vote for the House. They lost seats in the Senate. They haven't struck a deal. They know this is a game of chicken and they know that if they lose, God will lift them up into heaven anyway, a solace that doesn't put a steady hand on the Democrats.

    Still, the realist in my would not at all be surprised if they come up with a deal tomorrow, at the last moment. Like the debt ceiling fiasco of two years ago. The deal will be terrible for the economy and kick the can further down the road, thus increasing the erosion of the effectiveness of government.
    And that's what they've done! The worst of all options!

    GOP gets: permanent tax cuts for those earning between $250-400k.
    Dems gets: temporary extensions to various benefits, which the GOP will seek to demolish over the coming months.


    ed. hopefully, house loons will be outraged at this slightest of concessions and reject it.
    It's like the first term all over again.

    Edited by Bremenacht at 13:25:46 01-01-2013

    Once an eagle taught me courage. And I will never forget that day

  • Khanivor 2 Jan 2013 05:02:16 39,869 posts
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    Oh, look. A last minute deal. One which the GOP gets, well, tax cuts remaining in place for around 1% of the population.

    They really are fucking clown shoes. I just wish the Dems had stuck to the 250k number they had campaigned on. Yet they have come out of it looking strong, what with the House passing a plan that is notably less in their favour then the one they rejected even voting on just a few days ago.

    As much as I'm irritated at the Dems for not totally sticking the boot in they have come out of this very well. I mean, it's all revenue pretty much, with none of the spending cuts the GOP likes to claim is so important to them. They have now voted to increase taxes, (letting payroll tax cuts expire is hug across the board tax increase as far as how they tally such things) and got no spending cuts out of it.

    Clown shoes with dog shit on the inside.
  • Bremenacht 2 Jan 2013 11:56:20 15,753 posts
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    None of the spending cuts yet. Now that the GOP have secured the tax break for that 1%, they'll be free to go after those spending cuts at a later date without having to risk the thing they wanted most.

    So, a genuine compromise today*; a re-doubling of the partisan nastiness tomorrow. That's how I see it.

    *Which probably counts as 'another humiliating defeat' from the loon pov.

    Once an eagle taught me courage. And I will never forget that day

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