What's America's problem? Page 5

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  • Chopsen 24 Jul 2009 09:37:31 15,737 posts
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    This is now old, but it is as valid a criticism today as it was in 2006. It also indicates why the big car manufacturers have gone to the wall - not the recession, but the cost of health care insurance. The American health care model, over all, is inefficient, expensive and damaging to the economy as a whole.

    Kaiser-Permanente is an example of America probably getting something right, though. Nationally, though, it's a clusterfuck.
  • Onny 24 Jul 2009 09:37:59 5,697 posts
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    And what about children who get bone cancer? It's their own fault, I understand, from drinking all that cancer cola.

    Those crazy poor people.
  • PearOfAnguish 24 Jul 2009 09:39:03 7,150 posts
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    The bone cancer is good for them, they learn from the pain, it teaches them not to contract a serious disease. This is the American way. USA USA!


  • Onny 24 Jul 2009 09:41:00 5,697 posts
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    /waves flag
  • senso-ji 24 Jul 2009 10:23:54 5,801 posts
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    It won't be easy for the American government to provide a social healthcare program like we have here or in the rest of europe; it probably won't scale well. Sure, we can praise the NHS but hasn't always been this good - only in the last 10 years or so when governments have invested huge amounts of money into it has it cut down waiting lists and provided more beds and medicine.

    Imagine trying to create an effective program for a population of 300 million people in a huge land area - a social healthcare system will mean more patients, which in turn will mean more hospitals to be built, more doctors and nurses to be employed, more emergency response services, more drugs to be bought, clinics to be set up etc, etc. As retarded as that patients united advert is, it did have a point because (in the short term at least) waiting lists will increase and you can't implement a new system that promises equality which is worse than the previous one. Once standards have been set, you can't start dropping them as you develop, something especially true of healthcare.
  • Deleted user 24 July 2009 11:23:15
    Telepathic.Geometry wrote:
    I like the way m0th3rfunk3r puts it. :)

    If we stop thinking in dogmatic terms about all this, and stop thinking in political terms about it, the bottom line is that as a nation, we are one big community that should be looking after each other.

    If we don't look after each other, then what is the value in being a nation. Now, Americans don't seem to have a problem with everyone paying taxes to build an army to protect the country's citizens, and nobody's outraged that the taxes are used to build roads and railway lines so people can get around, and I suppose nobody is up in arms about water being piped around for everybody's benefit, and so on and so forth...

    So why is it that something as basic as keeping the nation's people healthy is such a low priority? I find BGiE's opinion pretty fascinating, because he's arguing a case I would say is pretty untenable, but with conviction, so kudos for that. :)

    So, BGiE, please tell me, why is it okay to spend tax-money on protecting people from foreign threats ('terrorists') and domestic crime, but not against viruses and diseases? I don't follow you.


    WOW, one of the best posts Ive read in a long time here.
  • matrim83 24 Jul 2009 11:39:36 5,587 posts
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    PearOfAnguish wrote:
    The bone cancer is good for them, they learn from the pain, it teaches them not to contract a serious disease. This is the American way. USA USA!



    :D

    Valar morghulis.

  • Nexus_6 24 Jul 2009 11:52:31 3,876 posts
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    Bill Gates is Evil wrote:
    My politics is that of a libertarian. My core political belief is that people should not be compelled to do anything, and that the government only has one proper role: to protect individuals from physical force.

    Now, of the 50 million uninsured, about a third of them are illegal aliens. About another third are people my age that think they're invincible and would rather spend the money on videogames. The rest can't afford it/don't have a job.

    See if you fuck up, you experience pain. Pain is good: it provides information that guides you to recorrect your course. If someone uninsured needs medical attention, thats very stressful. Good. Let them feel that stress: it's telling them they're doing something wrong.

    Blanket medical care disperses individual responsibility. This contributes to an immature society that act like children, with the government being mom and dad.

    Now understand if something horrible happens to you, you'll get treated regardless. They don't turn you out if you've just taken a bullet to the leg.

    I know I'm stating wild crazy beliefs on a forum that is decidedly much further left than the country I come from. But giving somebody goods and services they haven't earned is dulling them of the pain they need to experience to properly correct their life. It's the medical equivalent of giving someone pills to dull the pain of a toothache, but not addressing the core problem.

    Then there is the issue of: what will nationalizing health care do to the pace at which medical technology progresses? I mean, it's easy for Europe to have cheap socialized health care while American's foot such a massive part of the R&D part of the bill. We invest and risk our money building new technologies, you guys simply have to pay for the finished product. How many millions will die if say, cures and treaments for Cancer are delayed 10 years because the current politician in office wants companies to cut costs so as not to burden their government balance sheet?

    Relative poverty is such a sham and a complete tribalist mindset. I'd so much rather welfare money go to Africa than American's who in a vast majority of other countries would be considered rich.

    I can just imagine the thoughts running through your head as you are taken, roughly from behind, by your latest horse-hung black-god lover.

    'pain is good pain is good pain is good'
  • Deleted user 24 July 2009 12:04:42
    Watch this Bill. And for God's sake, open your eyes!
  • Deleted user 24 July 2009 12:12:19
    Bill Gates is Evil wrote:
    CrispyXUK wrote:
    Bill Gates is Evil wrote:
    The issue at the core of this for those on the right is liberty.
    Say that in English please.

    American's are granted the right to pursue happiness, not to have it. Making health care a "right" is retarded.

    If we really want to help the actually poor, lets get to work on Africa where people really are poor.

    There is inequality in health care, sure, but the medical system here produces an absolute vast majority of medical advances. I used to live near Texas Medical Center in houston, and Europeans, Canadians, the Chinese would all fly there for treatment.

    Thats true, but then you spend almost twice as much per head on health care as most EU countries, yet have 70 million people with no insurance, and probably as many again who are underinsured.

    If you combine the European spend on universal healthcare plus the cost of the comparatively few cases that go to the States for experimental treatment, it still costs us vastly less than it does you.

    Doesnt seem like a great deal for Americans really. American dollars are effectively subsidising treatment for other nationalities whilst leaving many Americans with no access to care.
  • DaisyD 24 Jul 2009 13:48:39 11,818 posts
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    The_Escapist wrote:
    Watch this Bill. And for God's sake, open your eyes!

    Wow. The Republicains really did make themselves sound idiotic.
  • Deleted user 24 July 2009 13:50:55
    Everyones getting really upset about BGiE. But at the end of the day hes only saying what most Americans believe. Including the ones who dont have insurance.
  • Deleted user 24 July 2009 14:03:10
    I've heard the exact same argument made by BGiE before from another privileged, selfish ideologue. He used the same argument and almost the same words and his view of the world and his fellow man was just as profoundly fucked up. It's people like this that remind one why the US is often regarded as a fundamentalist country. These views are so extreme that they are fundamental and a lot of American apparently think like this too. Scary.
  • Psychotext 24 Jul 2009 14:05:04 53,855 posts
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    I've realised the problem.

    Americans hate freedom.
  • Deleted user 24 July 2009 14:06:51
    Part of the problem is that Americans have always feared and hated their government. Which is really your fault, the British. But since independence, many have failed to "grow up" and still harbour a colonialist suspicion of their "elected" government.
  • Retroid Moderator 24 Jul 2009 14:07:50 44,503 posts
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    The idea of a healthier population who can contribute more taxes to the coffers is surely a persuasive argument :)
  • Deleted user 24 July 2009 14:08:45
    senso-ji wrote:
    It won't be easy for the American government to provide a social healthcare program like we have here or in the rest of europe; it probably won't scale well. Sure, we can praise the NHS but hasn't always been this good - only in the last 10 years or so when governments have invested huge amounts of money into it has it cut down waiting lists and provided more beds and medicine.

    Imagine trying to create an effective program for a population of 300 million people in a huge land area - a social healthcare system will mean more patients, which in turn will mean more hospitals to be built, more doctors and nurses to be employed, more emergency response services, more drugs to be bought, clinics to be set up etc, etc. As retarded as that patients united advert is, it did have a point because (in the short term at least) waiting lists will increase and you can't implement a new system that promises equality which is worse than the previous one. Once standards have been set, you can't start dropping them as you develop, something especially true of healthcare.

    You wouldn't do that though. Each state would have to be responsible for their own healthcare system.
  • Latin 24 Jul 2009 14:09:05 3,603 posts
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    It's a bit saddening that their closest allies (us) think that they're all fucking morons. Especially when we look at our own population who aren't exactly the sharpest...
  • MetalDog 24 Jul 2009 14:10:28 23,708 posts
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    It's not just an American attitude, though. Lots of people who have never had significant trouble in their lives have an enormous amount of difficulty empathising with people who do have trouble. The notion that everyone brings misfortune upon themselves through laziness/lack of willpower/etc - it's very prevalent amongst the fortunate - and since you can always find someone who matches that profile, you can always point to them and say that it's the case for everyone.

    The alternative is, after all, scary. Shit happens to people who are hard workers, strong willed, big in faith. Some of our good fortune (most of it, if you take into account accident of birth) is just luck. A great deal of what we consider our personal accomplishments are pure accident of being born in the right country, to adequate parents, of having genes that aren't too fucked up.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • Deleted user 24 July 2009 14:11:53
    This thread would be going in the opposite direction if you lot were American.
  • Telepathic.Geometry 24 Jul 2009 14:12:45 11,278 posts
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    Retroid wrote: The idea of a healthier population who can contribute more taxes to the coffers is surely a persuasive argument :)
    That sounds like commie talk to me. ;)

    || PSN Barrysama || NNID Barrysama ||

  • Deleted user 24 July 2009 14:13:25
    dangerpuss wrote:
    This thread would be going in the opposite direction if you lot were American.

    LOL.

    Er, no.
  • Psychotext 24 Jul 2009 14:23:10 53,855 posts
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    dangerpuss wrote:
    This thread would be going in the opposite direction if you lot were American.
    The USGamer forums are too subversive for that. We're all filthy reds.
  • quantumsheep 24 Jul 2009 14:30:59 3,127 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    It's not just an American attitude, though. Lots of people who have never had significant trouble in their lives have an enormous amount of difficulty empathising with people who do have trouble. The notion that everyone brings misfortune upon themselves through laziness/lack of willpower/etc - it's very prevalent amongst the fortunate - and since you can always find someone who matches that profile, you can always point to them and say that it's the case for everyone.

    I actually agree with this.

    I don't know why I sound surprised! Sorry!

    :)
  • Deleted user 24 July 2009 14:33:54
    ruggedtoast wrote:
    Everyones getting really upset about BGiE. But at the end of the day hes only saying what most Americans believe. Including the ones who dont have insurance.
    The polls were solidly - no - overwhelming in favour of the Obama administrations reform plans, until the Conservatives started with their smear campaign against it.

    You only have to watch the link I posted above earlier to see that they don't actually have any alternate strategies or solutions of their own, they're just out to score political points.

    It'll be interesting to see if Obama and the Democratic party actually go on the offensive for once, and out-shout the nay-sayers.
  • PearOfAnguish 24 Jul 2009 14:40:36 7,150 posts
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    dangerpuss wrote:
    This thread would be going in the opposite direction if you lot were American.

    Something Awful thread on the same subject. Lots of American posters, most of them agreeing that the system is fucking shite. Some horror stories in there of people being charged $50k and so on.
  • HoriZon 24 Jul 2009 14:51:39 13,498 posts
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    I went to the Dr's the other week for a check up and it didn't cost me a penny!

    Loves the NHS yes its flawed in parts but it benefits us all!


    God bless the US of A you are still a 3rd world country in this respect.

    I used to be a gamer like you, then I took an arrow in the knee.

  • DaisyD 24 Jul 2009 14:56:18 11,818 posts
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    I'm just watching/listening to yesterday's Daly Show about health care reform.
  • Khanivor 24 Jul 2009 14:57:18 40,402 posts
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    ruggedtoast wrote:
    Everyones getting really upset about BGiE. But at the end of the day hes only saying what most Americans believe. Including the ones who dont have insurance.

    This is not true. Most Americans actually want healthcare reform. Just because the politicians are not working towards meeting the desires of their constituents doesn't make the Americans any different from any other democratic nation on Earth. Granted, the methods used and the showiness of the whole process maybe unusual, but please, do not think that just because you hear people like BGiE mouth off that they represent all Americans, or even a majority. They do not.

    Here's a brand new FoxNews poll where, even with a loaded question, more Americans come out in favour of immediate reform. Note that those 'against' it are only answering in the positive as to whether reform shouldn't be done right away, which could mean in the next few weeks, (a lot of steam has been caused over the number of pages in the bill and whether it can be properly digested in time). Also of note is the poll claiming 91% of respondents have health insurance, so as we know that is not the case nationally you an be sure even more Americans want immediate reform.

    And to agree with MD, think about this. You consider healthcare a right yet will walk past homeless people every day. You may tut at the government but where's the groundswell of public action to ensure everyone is able to enjoy the right to shelter. If you are going to sneer at the stupidity of a nation allowing its people to suffer under a program which does not provide universal health care then please stop to ponder why you live in a nation which does not provide for an arguably even more basic need. This is not a defence, this is perspective.
  • grey_matters 24 Jul 2009 15:16:49 3,676 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    ruggedtoast wrote:
    Everyones getting really upset about BGiE. But at the end of the day hes only saying what most Americans believe. Including the ones who dont have insurance.

    This is not true. Most Americans actually want healthcare reform. Just because the politicians are not working towards meeting the desires of their constituents doesn't make the Americans any different from any other democratic nation on Earth. Granted, the methods used and the showiness of the whole process maybe unusual, but please, do not think that just because you hear people like BGiE mouth off that they represent all Americans, or even a majority. They do not.

    Here's a brand new FoxNews poll where, even with a loaded question, more Americans come out in favour of immediate reform. Note that those 'against' it are only answering in the positive as to whether reform shouldn't be done right away, which could mean in the next few weeks, (a lot of steam has been caused over the number of pages in the bill and whether it can be properly digested in time). Also of note is the poll claiming 91% of respondents have health insurance, so as we know that is not the case nationally you an be sure even more Americans want immediate reform.

    And to agree with MD, think about this. You consider healthcare a right yet will walk past homeless people every day. You may tut at the government but where's the groundswell of public action to ensure everyone is able to enjoy the right to shelter. If you are going to sneer at the stupidity of a nation allowing its people to suffer under a program which does not provide universal health care then please stop to ponder why you live in a nation which does not provide for an arguably even more basic need. This is not a defence, this is perspective.

    You're quite right, Khani. Of course, the two things (and many more besides) are not mutually exclusive. This thread started off with reference to the American health system and as such, it's reasonable to continue the thread in this manner. I agree that there is a myriad of social problems every country has to deal with and which we very often don't like to think about at all, let alone try to construct solutions for.

    Maybe you could start a thread on homelessness? A few references (which you're very good at) would be great.

    Edit: re-reading the above gives me the impression that I might be acting bitchy. I'm not though, its a genuine interest
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