News of the World hacking case Page 100

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  • RobTheBuilder 29 Nov 2012 14:11:17 6,521 posts
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    It seems like a good mixture.
    Sensible recommendations tarnished slightly by the fact that anything stronger would be obliterated by the Tories and media.
  • Fab4 29 Nov 2012 14:16:18 6,114 posts
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    The press will get 'one more chance' to do the right thing by the end of it all.
  • spamdangled 29 Nov 2012 14:29:34 27,410 posts
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    "There has been serious and repeated failings in the culture, standards and ethics of the Press"

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  • spamdangled 29 Nov 2012 14:31:23 27,410 posts
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    Fab4 wrote:
    The press will get 'one more chance' to do the right thing by the end of it all.
    He was pretty vocal about how fucking stupid that would be, as it would lead to the 8th inquiry into press standards and simply undermine the credibility of it to the public.

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  • Fab4 29 Nov 2012 14:48:33 6,114 posts
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    Eight...its a magic number ;)
  • spamdangled 29 Nov 2012 15:06:40 27,410 posts
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    Chuffing hell, the report is 2,000 pages long and spread across 4 volumes.

    No wonder he has no desire to see this being kicked into the long grass and never wants to discuss the inquiry any further. Must have been exhausting to write.

    Anyway, people are starting to pick out highlights. Interesting paragraph in there about "spin" and politicians forging close relationships with sections of the press in order to aid public opinion and gain votes, and how he wonders if it led to diminishing public confidence in politicians and political communication.

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  • spamdangled 29 Nov 2012 15:10:16 27,410 posts
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    Regulator should have the power to impose 1million fines and exemplary damages.

    I bet that terrifies the Daily Mail and Murdoch.

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  • SpaceDave3000 29 Nov 2012 15:11:34 78,432 posts
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    Hopefully each volume has a cool flick-book animation of a stickman fight in the corner.

    Or a dramatic reading audio book featuring Gilbert Gottfried.

    +1 / Like / Tweet this post

  • spamdangled 29 Nov 2012 15:13:49 27,410 posts
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    I'd prefer a Stephen Fry version myself.

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  • X201 29 Nov 2012 15:20:09 15,576 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    Regulator should have the power to impose 1million fines and exemplary damages.

    I bet that terrifies the Daily Mail and Murdoch.
    Nah, cash fines don't worry them. Having to print blank front pages is the way to hit them.
    Or even banning them from publication for a day.
  • spamdangled 29 Nov 2012 15:46:08 27,410 posts
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    Cameron is seriously missing the point Leveson makes about the necessity of statutory underpinning. He can't seem to comprehend the importance of the words "Absolutely Essential"

    He also totally fails to mention in his arguments against it that Leveson's proposals have a built in safeguard against future tinkering by enshrining press freedom from further political interference in law, utterly negating the argument Cameron completely depends on of the danger of future governments then further tabling amendments and more limiting regulation to declaw it.

    He is also being deeply misleading by saying the Conversatives come out completely scot free from the News International. Leveson says no such thing (see my point on the subject above)

    Edited by darkmorgado at 15:48:17 29-11-2012

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  • Ginger 29 Nov 2012 15:47:29 6,867 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    Regulator should have the power to impose 1million fines and exemplary damages.

    I bet that terrifies the Daily Mail and Murdoch.
    per word of story I hope

    London open taekwondo champion

  • spamdangled 29 Nov 2012 15:50:22 27,410 posts
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    Ginger wrote:
    darkmorgado wrote:
    Regulator should have the power to impose 1million fines and exemplary damages.

    I bet that terrifies the Daily Mail and Murdoch.
    per word of story I hope
    Heh wouldn't that be lovely!

    Tim Farron was brilliant in this commons debate. The labour woman who said Cameron is splitting the house and bordering on dereliction of duty. is absolutely spot on as well. He is seriously in danger of making the whole exercise an absolute waste of time.

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  • spamdangled 29 Nov 2012 16:16:26 27,410 posts
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    Cleggykins statement now. This will be interesting.

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  • Psychotext 29 Nov 2012 16:28:36 54,391 posts
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    I assume Cameron is sticking up for his friend Brooks.
  • spamdangled 29 Nov 2012 16:32:11 27,410 posts
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    Pretty much, in spirit if not outright spoken terms. There's been a hell of a lot of outright condemnation of his stance from Labour. Phrases such as "dereliction of duty" "betrayal of victims" and "damning support for maintaining the status quo", as well as "splitting the house on a matter of utmost importance" have been used.

    I agree with quite a few them.

    I even, to my utter amazement, found myself in deep agreement with Ed Milliband.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 16:32:53 29-11-2012

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  • FogHeart 29 Nov 2012 16:37:24 953 posts
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    I wonder if #IAgreeWithNick will start trending again :D
  • spamdangled 29 Nov 2012 16:44:51 27,410 posts
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    Yeah, I think he's being incredibly reasonable, passionate and erudite. Frankly after so long of feeling he is toothless and timid when it comes to standing up to conservative railroading in government it's refreshing to be able to both impressed and full agreement in with him for a change.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 22:53:47 29-11-2012

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  • FogHeart 29 Nov 2012 16:56:52 953 posts
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    Or maybe he's getting his revenge for being made to sit at the end of the table with the children at the media mogul shindigs ;)
  • spamdangled 29 Nov 2012 17:00:52 27,410 posts
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    Well the whole thing was one of his prime criticisms of the Tory party and Labour in the general election. It was true then and it's true today, I doubt his overall opinion (or that of the rest of the Liberals) has changed a jot.

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  • nickthegun 29 Nov 2012 17:02:59 60,422 posts
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    FogHeart wrote:
    I wonder if #IAgreeWithNick will start trending again :D
    Its always trending

    ---------------------------------------------------------
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  • Deleted user 29 November 2012 19:22:32
    I'm actually leaning towards Cameron position. Bizzarely.

    The sticking point isn't actually the watchdogs - as i read it, everyone wants that ?. Its whether we put laws in place to achieve that. As soon as you do, you are basically having a government 'sponsored' law to keep the press in check no matter how incidental, independant it is. Of course it ain't state regulation, but critics will use it as that.

    Don't get me wrong, the behaviour of the press really gets on my tits. I hate them. I hate everyone who picks up trash like the people, daily mail, and the sun and hangs on every word they write as truth.

    But when we put ourselves as a forerunner of free speech and go to places that do censor there press - china and russia and have this our own laws hanging over them, you look a bit silly.

    The leverson inquiry as put egg on the faces of the press, politicians, and police. Thats great, its done its job, we lost one shit paper as result, several editors have been arrested. We do need do need to ensure that the press behaviour is in check , but havn't we done that anyway with this inquiry? I think with the days of social media its going to be harder for the press to have a free reign on agenda, stories and false reporting ?

    its a tough one.

    Edited by joelstinton at 19:24:54 29-11-2012
  • spamdangled 29 Nov 2012 19:31:56 27,410 posts
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    joelstinton wrote:
    I'm actually leaning towards Cameron position. Bizzarely.

    The sticking point isn't actually the watchdogs - as i read it, everyone wants that ?. Its whether we put laws in place to achieve that. As soon as you do, you are basically having a government 'sponsored' law to keep the press in check.
    But, rather crucially, the solution proposed is that it be carried out by the press themselves, with the freedom of the press enshrined as part of that law. The legislation is there to underpin the process, cement public confidence and also give the body actual powers rather than the current problem of having a completely toothless regulator with no checks and balances keeping them in place by an additional independent assessor, whilst additionally reinforcing the independence and freedom of the press rather than weakening it. It also provides a legal framework for the judiciary in the civil cases arising from press misbehaviour.

    Or, as Leveson put it, the whole thing is absolutely essential to ensure that we don't end up back at square one at a later date like all the other times (referred to rather tidily by Labour as a "lock in at the last chance saloon").

    There is wide cross-party consensus on the need for statutory underpinning by most of the politicians, which I was actually surprised by the most. Cameron's view (including his convenient ignoring of salient points Leveson makes which disprove it) is clearly in the minority here, and there seems overwhelming public support for it as well.

    He was indeed splitting the house in the commons debate and attempting to maintain the status quo which has repeatedly shown it is utterly unable to get its house in order.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 19:33:54 29-11-2012

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  • spamdangled 29 Nov 2012 22:05:56 27,410 posts
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    Didn't take long for the victims of the press to start saying cameron's performance in the commons today was a betrayal of his promise and the victims that led to the whole thing.

    Cant see him getting out of this unscathed. He seems to have clearly made his mind up, despite the damage control leaks saying he is not ruling out legislation in the cross party talks.

    If anything the u-turn only enhances the potential reputational damage.

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  • spamdangled 29 Nov 2012 22:49:54 27,410 posts
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    Chris Bryant on QT rather brilliantly just said "the press have been marking their own homework and giving themselves A stars all the time"

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  • Bremenacht 30 Nov 2012 00:01:49 18,697 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    Chris Bryant on QT rather brilliantly just said "the press have been marking their own homework and giving themselves A stars all the time"
    Or putting it another way, the foxes have all agreed that the best way of ensuring the rights of chickens are respected is to appoint a fox with bigger teeth.

    nickthegun wrote:
    To the layman it seems quite straightforward: Self regulation with an independant head and a far stricter emphasis on the police acting on illegal activities.

    Strictly speaking, most of the issues raised are illegal, so the threat of jail should be enough.
    I think this is the real point. Many of the most outrageous press behaviour was illegal, yet no-one was prosecuted for it. The police made no attempt to investigate criminal activity, the CPS couldn't care less and the politicians who pass law were too frightened of their adopted offspring to ever want to tell them off.

    #IagreeWithNick
  • Bremenacht 30 Nov 2012 00:02:54 18,697 posts
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    Perhaps the Darkmorgado Enquiry is required to sort things out properly?
  • Khanivor 30 Nov 2012 00:16:51 40,936 posts
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    If the laws are not being enforced then the answer is to make some new ones.

    /facepalm
  • Bremenacht 30 Nov 2012 00:39:00 18,697 posts
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    Exactly that. Although, seeing the usual suspects squirm and cry would be rather good. Imagine the Daily Mail getting hit with 1M for printing unauthorised pictures of celebs kids or something like that? Wonderful. And unlikely.

    The police have got off scott-free yet again. Levenson found no evidence of corruption, and Operation Elveden has resulted in prosecutions, but not against Police on the take. Are there any enquiries left that could affect them?
  • spamdangled 30 Nov 2012 01:04:44 27,410 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    If the laws are not being enforced then the answer is to make some new ones.

    /facepalm
    Or to strengthen the criminal law whilst simulatenously adressing the self-regulation problem as well as reinforcing and protecting press freedom and establishment from political tampering.

    Which is EXACTLY what Leveson's recommendations do. It is a complete strawman to suggest that statutory underpinning is in and of itself fundamentally damaging to press freedom.

    As I have previously said, the judiciary operates with statutory underpinning and noone has ever seriously (or at least convincingly) provided an argument suggesting it is subject to political interference. Quite the opposite - if anything it's a common complaint of politicians that the judiciary actively hampers their intentions - recent example being the Abu Qatada extradition to Jordan that was blocked by the judiciary at great and deeply vocal criticism by government - precisely because the legislation underpinning the judiciary actively increases their independence from political interference.

    Anther point which is getting a lot of airtime today - and is also rather important - is regarding the Irish model. The Irish model is undoubtedly far more restrictive, potentially open to abuse and illiberal than the Leveson Proposals (which actively INCREASE the freedom of the press as part of its balancing checks). Regardless, almost every single company, including the worst offenders in the UK such as the Daily Mail and the Murdoch empire about hysterically fighting against statute in the UK, actively agree with, have signed up to, and have never once expressed dissatisfaction with the inarguably less democratic and dictatorial than the proposed UK recommendations.

    Which effectively proves that they know damn well their objections are empty bullshit with no realistic basis, and are just making scary noises because they are so used to getting their way over best part of a century despite repeatedly and spectacularly failing to demonstrate that they are capable in any capacity of practicing what they preach. Theyknow they're talking bullshit, the politicians are amazingly as close to unilaterally supportive of implementing the recommendations in full as I think is humanly possible in such an age-old and frequently revisited issue, Cameron himself has already u-turned on his clear refusal to implement statue less than two hours after the commencement of cross-party talks, and most importantly of all there is clear, overwhelming public support to implement the recommendations and principles Leveson sets out not just by the victims of press intrusion and institutional breakdown in journalistic ethics, but also the wider public who are so often cited by the press themselves ((rather patronisingly at that) as being the people who will suffer the most under statutory underpinning.

    And finally, most importantly of all and absolutely essential to the whole crux of the debate and the merits of the recommendations is that this is the first time that the findings have been independent. The report is free from political interference, utterly comprehensive (I laugh at anyone who suggests the remit, length of the two thousand page report or even length and breadth of the module and the sheer volume of witnesses who gave evidence are evidence of a rushed or limited process to score political points), clearly considered at great length over a significant period of time, unrelenting in its pursuit of as much witness testimony on both sides of the debate as was potentially humanly possible and representative of all sides, and very carefully balanced in such a way that it actually ENHANCES press freedom, preserves the spirit of self regulation, whilst also providing the essential checks and balances to ensure it is both effective, independent, balanced, fair, proportionate and actually has the teeth to back up its verdicts.

    It is incredibly lazy debate to suggest that the sheer existence of legislation to underpin regulation is inherently undemocratic. It is even lazier bordering on outright lies to immediately make comparisons to dictatorships like Zimbabwe, China or Iran. Those sorts of hyperbolic arguments were fundamentally invalid and irresponsible in the vote reform debate, and they are just as if not in all likelihood even more invalid here in the context of what is actually being proposed.

    Epic response I know, and I do apologise, but some pretty important distinctions to make to the naysayers and/or non supporters.

    TL, DR: It is perfectly legitimate to debate what constitutes press freedom, but after best part of a century, repeated inaction snd escalating and self-evident failures of self regulation to provide effective adherence to journalistic ethics, and what I think will genuinely becme required reading on the subject of press regulation whilst maintaining press freedom across the globe to a degree possibly of even more importance than the American 1st amendment, the findings and recommendations render moot the fundamental opposition to statutory underpinning that has repeatedly, and to the discredit of politics and politicians, failed to address the core concerns.

    It has now been made absolutely clear that statutory underpinning is utterly essential to resolve the very problems that led to the inquiry in the first place and provoked this seemingly endless debate best part of a century ago. It is now time, after over 7 decades, that conservatives (small c) and the press alike finally accept this simple truth and just fucking get on with implementing it.

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