Moon - now with spoilers! Page 7

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  • PES_Fanboy 17 Aug 2009 16:24:57 13,425 posts
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    Well, we don't know how much it costs to make a clone, and possibly the company are doing other, inethical things that would make more reasons for the comms to be 'down'. Plus, the 3 years isolation is clearly sending them slightly mental, so I suspect there wouldn't be too many applicants for jobs.
  • Deleted user 17 August 2009 16:27:12
    Anyone know when this is out on Blu-ray? The nearest cinema showing it was an hr away so didn't go..
  • mal 17 Aug 2009 16:36:40 22,334 posts
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    I don't see why it's so infeasible that cloning would become an inexpensive technology, while space flight still relied on expensive fuels given the timespan involved - except perhaps that given human cloning appears to be still outlawed in the movie (in the Western world at least) it's perhaps unlikely that techniques to clone pigs and other animals could be transferred over, no matter how developed they became.

    But there's still the problem of how those hundreds of clones got there. If they were grown on the moon, they'd presumably need access to enough nutrients. If they were grown on earth, there's still the cost of flying them to the moon (although presumably you can fly more clones that are in stasis than you can conscious people).

    But anyway, it's clear that the cloning technology they're using is wildly different to what we have today, in the the other Sams are cloned with the memories of the original Sam intact. Either they've been sythesised out of the ether (which seems unlikely given the need to mine still exists), or they've been grown in some sort of simulated, possibly accelerated environment - which leads back to the question of where they were developed.

    I'd assumed the reason for cloning was because of the psycological stresses it caused, and presumably they were worried if they sent more people up, news of it would spread.


    But ultimately, Moon isn't really a hard sci-fi film anyway. It's a human drama with only one real protagonist, set in a sci-fi backdrop.

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • localnotail 17 Aug 2009 16:48:06 23,093 posts
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    clones made on site? fast-grown to adult state, placed in near-stasis? Would require minimal nutrients after initial growth to adult. 3 year obsolescence either by design or by chance the same amount of time that a person can endure life in solitude? I took the story to be as follows: Original Sam goes to Moon, lives for maybe 3 years, learns skills, skills mapped to clones, clones grown, Sam 1 goes home. Clones continue his work. He lives off their earnings, effectively. no?

    A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

  • mal 17 Aug 2009 16:55:39 22,334 posts
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    Essentially, that's how I viewed the movie when I left. But it just seems unlikely they can get hold of enough food to develop all those clones at once (I'm assuming there are hundreds down there, even though we only get to see two of them, as I remember it).

    The other problem is how his skills get 'mapped' to the clones. Skills aren't recorded in the genome, so each clone would need to be trained, or else it's possible to do a mind transferrence/copying type thing. But nothing on this scale was hinted at in the film.


    But anyway, there is such a thing as overanalysing a plot, and I think I might be in danger of heading there if I carry on on this line.

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • Khanivor 17 Aug 2009 17:01:53 40,380 posts
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    It still seems like a bit of an unlikely conceit. I'm glad it was made because, as mal says, it's really a human drama and the cloning allows a pretty unusual story to be told.

    I think the three years is based around the lifespan of a clone, rather than a timeframe set for a real person to endure the job. I'm not even sure the real Sam went to the Moon in the first place - as noted in the film, both the clone Sam and Gerty are machines, and with Sam having memories implanted I think they just cloned someone who wasn't too smart nor questioning and pumped him full of instructions and set the program running.
  • mal 17 Aug 2009 17:15:40 22,334 posts
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    Well indeed. One of the more interesting questions the question raises is was the original Sam a bastard? He must've been complicit in the idea of implanting his memories in the clones, even if they're not really clones of him. Given these Sams seem to be nice guys, it seems plausible (although implanting the memories of Sam in a clone of not Sam seems equally unlikely to succeed).

    Edit: Spoiler, not spolier.

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • Khanivor 17 Aug 2009 17:29:30 40,380 posts
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    Well the fact he has a bit of a temper crops up a few times, so it's possible he was complicit in it all. Same with his wide, because someone had to make all those recordings. Of course, that could have been a fake wife with the memories of their marriage falsely implanted.

    Another option is that Sam did indeed go to the Moon once, the recordings were real, and on his return his DNA was sampled and from this the clones made
    .
  • localnotail 17 Aug 2009 17:35:08 23,093 posts
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    but then why are there video messages from his wife, and why does she say she's not sure / happy about what he's doing?

    I think that maybe it's possible they have developed a basic short term memory map. If they can clone an adult, who knows what else they can do?


    I honestly think he made the trip, got the experience, and then they cloned him and used his messages to keep the clones going up there



    but I agree. I didn't let myself overanalyse this film too much in the days after I saw it. I just let it sink into my memory like a sunset on a beach.

    A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

  • Khanivor 17 Aug 2009 17:49:50 40,380 posts
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    Do you remember earlier in the film there was a cut in a message from his wife, and just as Sam was about to ask Gerty WTF something else in the video distracted him? So it could be that the messages were real but edited to make sure nothing could give the game away.

    Quite why Gerty is programmed to do so is a bit beyond me though.
    I love to analyse movies after I see them, especially when the movie itself was so sparse in information but richly detailed in its presentation of the world. I loved all the little incidental set decorations and the like, which really brought the movie to life.
  • localnotail 17 Aug 2009 17:53:00 23,093 posts
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    I love the details too, but I really tried to leave it for a while before I started pulling it to pieces. But then I couldn't help it. I felt that way about the messages too though.

    A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

  • Khanivor 17 Aug 2009 17:55:36 40,380 posts
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    I don't view it as pulling it to pieces, more like lifting the lid and looking in ;)
  • localnotail 17 Aug 2009 17:59:33 23,093 posts
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    I put them back together again afterwards, honest.

    A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

  • mal 17 Aug 2009 18:04:48 22,334 posts
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    Hmm, I'd forgotten about that bit. I can't think of a reason why they'd need to edit the messages. After all, Sam doesn't know he's in the future. But why would you think Gerty edited the messages? It could have been done from Earth.

    Mind you, Gerty has been programmed to pretend that each Sam is a new one. Either that, or he's been convinced that it's in the clone's best interest not to know they are a clone. Perhaps that explains better how he's able to convince himself that what he's involved in is wrong.

    Hmm, what was the deal with the blocking towers again? Didn't we see Gerty communicating with Earth before the towers were destroyed?

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • Khanivor 17 Aug 2009 18:11:16 40,380 posts
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    I don't think Gerty edited the messages, but Gerty could defintely contact Earth when the towers were up. And not only could it contact Earth, but could do so faster than the speed of light ;)

    My guess on Gerty's behaviour is an emergent AI. It had probably been up there for at least 15 years, so probably got its programming off into new territory. Quite why it would then be willing to have all that wiped out is perplexing, so maybe there's another explanation for it. Or none at all :p

    I want to see the film again, as I'm fairly sure there's something much nearer the start which goes on. After all, Sam is first long-haired and beardy and while he is trimming his beard, he is next seen as clean shaven. Might just be a cut, but I wonder if there's something there which is too obvious to spot
  • localnotail 17 Aug 2009 18:19:01 23,093 posts
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    this is the pinkest page I have ever seen on EG :)

    A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

  • mal 17 Aug 2009 18:25:16 22,334 posts
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    Faster than the speed of light? By my reckoning the moon is 1.2 light seconds away from earth, so the delay would be of that magnitude.

    Clearly Gerty was emergent to some degree - stuff it learned affected its behaviour. Though it clearly knew it was just a machine. I guess it had some programming along the lines of asimov's three laws of robotics, and it decided that to return it to a state where it considered running the station and cloning Sam to be okay was fine as it'd soon likely be shut down anyway. Protecting the life of even a cloned human was deemed more important that its own survival, or at least the survival of its developed personality.

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • Ged42 18 Aug 2009 19:17:36 7,700 posts
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    Yay!! I've finally seen it. :D

    Really good stuff, not awesome, but still good.

    It's been a while since I've watched a good cerebral bit of sci-fi so it was quite refreshing.

    I'd a thought the clones would have saved the company quite a bit, since a job as hazardous and isolated as Sam's, would have to pay a massive amount in order to get people to apply, not to mention a major recruitment and screening process in order to make sure the applicants can survive the 3 years without going loopy.
  • Nick Staff 18 Aug 2009 19:24:25 618 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    Do you remember earlier in the film there was a cut in a message from his wife, and just as Sam was about to ask Gerty WTF something else in the video distracted him? So it could be that the messages were real but edited to make sure nothing could give the game away.

    I like the idea that the "real Sam" came into the room at the moment his wife was recording the fake message :)

  • Khanivor 18 Aug 2009 19:29:37 40,380 posts
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    mal wrote:
    Faster than the speed of light? By my reckoning the moon is 1.2 light seconds away from earth, so the delay would be of that magnitude.


    But the round trip time would be about 2 and a half seconds, which didn't seem to be the case in the film.


    /flicks nit away

  • Khanivor 18 Aug 2009 19:30:39 40,380 posts
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    Nick wrote:
    I like the idea that the "real Sam" came into the room at the moment his wife was recording the fake message :)




    If you're saying you thought that was the real Sam handing the baby to his wife to show the camera, well, I like that idea :)
  • Ged42 18 Aug 2009 19:47:10 7,700 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    Nick wrote:
    I like the idea that the "real Sam" came into the room at the moment his wife was recording the fake message :)




    If you're saying you thought that was the real Sam handing the baby to his wife to show the camera, well, I like that idea :)

    Would explain why the woman that suddenly appeared in the chair had dark hair, maybe it's an original memory from the original Sam, rather than the implanted memory of the blonde.

    Also I thought the symptons that were affecting Sam resembled radiation poisoning. Even with thick lead walls on the base, the Sams would still be getting some pretty heavy REMs on the moon, maybe 3 years is the maximum they can survive, without the company having to pay out for major medical care or enduring lawsuits
  • Khanivor 18 Aug 2009 20:03:05 40,380 posts
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    That's a damn fine theory sir, a damn fine theory.
  • Ged42 18 Aug 2009 20:51:11 7,700 posts
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    Thanks, there's probably a load of holes in it, but we'll have to wait till the DVD release (16th Nov) I think to really figure it out.
  • effinjamie 18 Aug 2009 21:05:11 880 posts
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    That's always be my take on it too,the long term radiation exposure is the reason the company is using clones

    edit:spoilers

    PSN - effinjamie Xbox - effinjamie

  • Khanivor 18 Aug 2009 21:28:05 40,380 posts
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    You might want to put some spoiler tags on that...
  • localnotail 18 Aug 2009 21:37:55 23,093 posts
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    Ged42 wrote:
    Also I thought the symptons that were affecting Sam resembled radiation poisoning. Even with thick lead walls on the base, the Sams would still be getting some pretty heavy REMs on the moon, maybe 3 years is the maximum they can survive, without the company having to pay out for major medical care or enduring lawsuits


    ooooh interesting - great theory... But I have to say - it comes on pretty quick in that last month - it should be more progressive if that was the case. I still think they maybe are only alive for 3 years to avoid them developing questions about why they are not going home. You could even dose them with something in their food for the final month to make this happen

    A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

  • phAge 18 Aug 2009 21:43:51 24,336 posts
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    Why

    the

    cunting

    fuck

    do I have to wait several sodding months before the mongtards here in Denmark decide to show this film at the ciname? I mean seriously - its been what, 2 months since it started playing in the US, and its not even being fucking ADVERTISED here yet.

    SHEEEEESH.
  • Khanivor 18 Aug 2009 21:45:50 40,380 posts
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    If my movies and novels are correct, radiation poisoning would not effect you until the dose got to a certain point. Could be a tipping point just around 3 years, which causes a quick breakdown.

    Of course, the science is probably totally wrong in the above :)
  • Ged42 18 Aug 2009 21:50:36 7,700 posts
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    I'm not sure radiation poisoning myself, I always keep myself dosed up with Radaway and Rad-X
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