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  • Grax 8 Oct 2013 13:58:53 2,296 posts
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    I'm still unconvinced about Vettel, Hamilton proved himself alongside Alonso in the season they were team mates, webber although good, I wouldn't class as world championship material. It would have been interesting to see the kimi Vettel battle but Hopefully Ricardo can put a lil bit more pressure on him.

    I would rate top three drivers in f1 as , Alonso, kimi and Hamilton in that order
  • Deleted user 8 October 2013 14:02:31
    I don't care what you guys think, but hamilton is by far the most entertaining racer on the grid. Thats all that matters, and thats why i like him. I can do without his blessed by god stuff, but i think people go way over board (as solid does on most pages :) ) on their opinions on him. But each to there own. The problem with pulling quotes out like that is they lose all context.

    I would love to see a title shoot out between him, freddie seb and kimi, but we have always had that. He probably should have had more than 1 title as well. He does lose his cool now and again and have those dips in forms, but they don't last for long. I think Mclaren inability as a team probably cost him a title as well.
  • Psychotext 8 Oct 2013 14:17:48 55,032 posts
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    The context is fairly clear, he doesn't respect anyone other than Alonso and the only reason he respects Alonso is because they finished with the same points, so if he downplays Alonso's skill he's downplaying his own by association.

    Hamilton's problem is that he's never had to race in a car that isn't at the sharp end of the grid, so he really hasn't had a chance to build up any sort of humility.

    ...and yes, he's plenty entertaining. There's really no arguing with that.

    Edit - Whilst we're at it, I reckon the top drivers are:

    Racing - Alonso
    Consistency - Vettel
    Outright Speed - Hamilton

    I'm still not entirely sure how good Kimi is, but I guess we'll know for sure next year.

    Edited by Psychotext at 14:30:01 08-10-2013
  • aaron0288 8 Oct 2013 14:27:04 98 posts
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    Yup, McLaren lost him the title last season. The battle between him and Vettel at Texas last year was one of my all time fav races. And yes, as you said Joel, he is the most entertaining guy on track. I could sit there and watch his onboard camera for the whole season. Grosjean is a very close second.

    Regarding Vettel, I wasn't a fan, and still don't particularly like him, especially his 'Yes baby!' celebrations *shudder*. But it's obvious he's one of the best. He pulls those perfect laps out of the bag, almost always gets a good start, controls races from the front with such consistency, and is always there or there abouts when the car isn't that great, while all the time dealing with the shit the press and the "fans" give him. You could say he brings it on himself, but to me he's always come across as a very open and honest guy, similar to Hamilton. People don't seem to like this for some reason.
  • aaron0288 8 Oct 2013 14:30:16 98 posts
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    Psychotext wrote:
    The context is fairly clear, he doesn't respect anyone other than Alonso and the only reason he respects Alonso is because they finished with the same points, so if he downplays Alonso's skill he's downplaying his own by association.
    Wouldn't take any of that stuff seriously. They're just trying to mess with a certain someone's head, and failing.
  • Grax 8 Oct 2013 14:33:41 2,296 posts
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    @aaron0288 it's his finger that gets me, I just want to snap it off so much. I won't deny he is a talent, I just think the three guys I mentioned are greater (having said that I will give you Vettel is the most consistent driver, though I put that down to the fact the car is immense and webber is the most inconstant/unlucky driver on the track
  • Psychotext 8 Oct 2013 14:35:12 55,032 posts
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    aaron0288 wrote:
    Wouldn't take any of that stuff seriously. They're just trying to mess with a certain someone's head, and failing.
    Nah, the "monkeys at the back" shit had nothing to do with any of that, and there are plenty of other comments along the same lines over the last few years. Like he says, he "deserves it" more.

    Edited by Psychotext at 14:35:39 08-10-2013
  • Grax 8 Oct 2013 15:48:56 2,296 posts
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    does anyone else think that f1 needs to go back to allowing teams to test.

    The situation with the tyre's, where pirelli have no idea how they will work and teams arguing over who can test them is just dangerous
  • Deleted user 8 October 2013 15:58:03
    Psychotext wrote:
    The context is fairly clear, he doesn't respect anyone other than Alonso and the only reason he respects Alonso is because they finished with the same points, so if he downplays Alonso's skill he's downplaying his own by association.

    Hamilton's problem is that he's never had to race in a car that isn't at the sharp end of the grid, so he really hasn't had a chance to build up any sort of humility.

    ...and yes, he's plenty entertaining. There's really no arguing with that.

    Edit - Whilst we're at it, I reckon the top drivers are:

    Racing - Alonso
    Consistency - Vettel
    Outright Speed - Hamilton

    I'm still not entirely sure how good Kimi is, but I guess we'll know for sure next year.
    I think thats a few leaps too far. All drivers get heated with people at the back of the grid. Vettel and his cucumber comment for instance. And he doesn;t continue to berate other drivers. Button and webber are probably more vocal about other drivers than anyone.

    Personally i think Hamilton biggest problem is that he his too hard on himself.
  • Psychotext 8 Oct 2013 16:18:36 55,032 posts
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    Hamilton isn't just berating drivers at the back of the grid though (and yes, Vettel was a wanker for doing so too), he's flat out saying that people like Hulkenberg, Grosjean and Webber (I guess Rosberg too) don't deserve to be battling with him and Alonso. I just don't agree that being a world champion entitles you to the best car, especially given that in 95% of titles in the last 20 years it's having one of the best cars that has meant you get a world title in the first place (luck as much as judgement).

    Imagine Hamilton had started his F1 career in this year's or last year's McLaren. Would he still feel that he's entitled to be at the front? It's not like there are many F1 drivers that haven't worked their arses off and displayed innate skill to get to this point (people like Chilton aside).

    Anyway, I'm not going to bleat on about it, as obviously everyone likes different drivers and has different opinions on their intentions.

    Edited by Psychotext at 16:21:45 08-10-2013
  • aaron0288 8 Oct 2013 16:55:30 98 posts
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    @Grax

    God yes. I'd break that finger off and shove it up his arse! :)
  • Raiko101 8 Oct 2013 17:21:33 6,715 posts
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    I think Vettel being consistent is a bit unfair. When he has the fastest car and is leading from the front, he pulls out consist performances. When he's being hunted down or having to fight a team mate, he buckles. If he were in a position where he had to chase somebody else down to win the title, I don't think the consistency would be there. Alonso has had consistent seasons, when the pressure wasn't quite on him.

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  • Psychotext 8 Oct 2013 17:30:06 55,032 posts
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    He hasn't really screwed up since 2010, and he still managed the championship then because Webber choked massively. You want to talk about winning under pressure, look at Brazil last year where his car was smashed up and he still managed to pass most of the field (twice) to win the championship by a single position. The only vaguely recent time I can think of that he was "hunted down" was by Button in Canada 2011, which had more to do with Button having a wet setup than Vettel blowing it (if he hadn't pushed so hard on that particular corner he would have been easily passed under DRS anyway).

    In the early days he was fair game for his crashing and tantrum antics, but those days are long gone. The main difference with Vettel now is that he almost never significantly underperforms or overperforms. He generally qualifies where the car should be and finishes the race in a similar position. Alonso will generally race far better than he qualifies and Hamilton the opposite.

    Edited by Psychotext at 17:35:40 08-10-2013
  • StarchildHypocrethes 8 Oct 2013 17:39:21 26,617 posts
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    Hah!

    I actually can't believe there are still people trying claim Vettel isn't much cop, just as he's about to win his 4th championship on the trot. Bless you EG Motorsport thread, you always provide despairing amusement.

    There's clutching at straws, then there's this thread.
  • Grax 8 Oct 2013 17:48:01 2,296 posts
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    @StarchildHypocrethes if we didn't think he was anything more then above average before this season what makes you think one more title is going to make a difference
  • StarchildHypocrethes 8 Oct 2013 17:50:13 26,617 posts
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    Nothing. Bless you all.
  • Mekanik 8 Oct 2013 18:48:49 3,735 posts
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    Psychotext wrote:

    Hamilton's problem is that he's never had to race in a car that isn't at the sharp end of the grid, so he really hasn't had a chance to build up any sort of humility.

    2009. MP4-24 car. First half of the season at least.
  • superdelphinus 8 Oct 2013 18:51:54 8,126 posts
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    StarchildHypocrethes wrote:
    Hah!

    I actually can't believe there are still people trying claim Vettel isn't much cop, just as he's about to win his 4th championship on the trot. Bless you EG Motorsport thread, you always provide despairing amusement.

    There's clutching at straws, then there's this thread.
    meh it's not just this thread though is it?
  • Kostabi 8 Oct 2013 19:00:10 5,094 posts
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    Hamilton had a charmed entry into F1, although I won't say he didn't deserve it as his junior record is really rather good.

    However a year grafting away in a Minardi or Sauber might have done him some good in the humility stakes. It's probably hard not to act spoilt and entitled when the worst team you've been employed by is McLaren.
  • kentmonkey 8 Oct 2013 19:05:47 20,930 posts
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    I don't see what Hamilton says is wrong really.

    He's not saying he's too good to be doing the same times as Rosberg, Hulkenberg, Webber, etc. What he's saying, if I read it right, is that if all things were equal, he, and Alonso, on racing ability deserve to be a lot closer to Vettel. In terms of ability, they should all be within a few seconds of each other, and pushing each other all the way, rather than at least a minute off the pace and fighting with whoever else is the same distance behind.

    He's driven (no pun intended) and clearly sending out a message of 'teams, whatever Red Bull are doing, it's time now for Mercedes, Ferrari, and indeed probably others, to make up that distance and enable us to compete more on an equal footing'.

    Vettel, as good as he may be, is often winning races seemingly at 90-95%. And kudos to him that he's even doing that much effort as he could be winning most at 75%. But he likes the fastest laps. Hamilton, Alonson, Raikkonen and all the other deserved drivers, are doing 110% minimum, pushing harder, faster and having to overtake far more people with all the risks that come with that, and still 30-60 seconds off the pace.

    Hamilton can be a cock sometimes, I just fail to see what's wrong with what he's said now.
  • Raiko101 9 Oct 2013 00:43:34 6,715 posts
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    Didn't Raikkonen compete in as few as 20 odd races in all classes before making his F1 debut?

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  • Bremenacht 9 Oct 2013 09:09:31 19,663 posts
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    kentmonkey wrote:
    Vettel, as good as he may be, is often winning races seemingly at 90-95%. And kudos to him that he's even doing that much effort as he could be winning most at 75%. But he likes the fastest laps. Hamilton, Alonson, Raikkonen and all the other deserved drivers, are doing 110% minimum, pushing harder, faster and having to overtake far more people with all the risks that come with that, and still 30-60 seconds off the pace.
    I think they're all doing 90% really, otherwise the tyres are destroyed. RB seem to handle 90% better than all the other cars. Bernie will order Pirelli to come up with something different for next season anyway. They'll be blaming turbos for too much torque before we know it.
  • Raiko101 9 Oct 2013 10:07:17 6,715 posts
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    StarchildHypocrethes wrote:
    Hah!

    I actually can't believe there are still people trying claim Vettel isn't much cop, just as he's about to win his 4th championship on the trot. Bless you EG Motorsport thread, you always provide despairing amusement.

    There's clutching at straws, then there's this thread.
    The number of championships and races you win do not prove your worth as a driver. If that were the case, then Michael Schumacher's most impressive seasons would have been the snoozefests that were 2001, 2002 and 2004. Personally, I thought his 2006 season, in which he lost to Alonso, was far more impressive. As was his 2000 success against Hakkinen.

    At the moment, Vettel is in a position in which he should be a 4 time World Champion because he's been given the best opportunity to achieve that. Red Bull have been competitive for the past 4 and half seasons. They've had the fastest package for the majority of that time.

    We can all argue about how impressive his performances may have been, but we're not going to solve anything. Opinions are opinions and I, like many others, don't think he's the most impressive driver out there.

    I'm not saying he's rubbish. Far from it. He's clearly up there. However, given the same machinery as others, I wouldn't put money on him winning much at all.

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  • Grax 10 Oct 2013 14:25:07 2,296 posts
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    I have a feeling Alonso and kimi might not get on.

    Autosport has an article where Alonso pointed out that when kimi and Massa were team mates they were as fast as each other and he doesn't expect kimi to be any faster now
  • Psychotext 10 Oct 2013 14:28:42 55,032 posts
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    Maybe true, but Massa is very clearly slower now than he was then.
  • Bremenacht 10 Oct 2013 14:57:56 19,663 posts
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    Raiko101 wrote:
    We can all argue about how impressive his performances may have been, but we're not going to solve anything. Opinions are opinions and I, like many others, don't think he's the most impressive driver out there.

    I'm not saying he's rubbish. Far from it. He's clearly up there. However, given the same machinery as others, I wouldn't put money on him winning much at all.
    Trouble is, it's very hard to tell who's a genuinely good driver given the extent to which tyres and car setups affect overall results. It's those little snapshots during the race which matter - opportunities seized, opponents duped, track conditions utilised cleverly - that show who's got the craft. You sometimes miss these bits when the camera doesn't show them, or when you've nodded off 'cos the race is 2/3s dull.

    I think Vettel's probably as good as anyone, maybe even Alonso.
  • Saucy 10 Oct 2013 15:25:49 2,614 posts
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    Looking forward to Suzuka, a great race track. Last weekend was closer than people think, without the SC it would have been very interesting to see if Grosjean could have made superior tyre life count. Harder compounds this weekend though, so probably a Vettel walk over.
  • Mekanik 10 Oct 2013 17:45:25 3,735 posts
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    Hopefully Pirelli will make good tyres next season and we can stop watching the tyre conservation race that this has become.

    Car differences aside, I would prefer to see them at least push hard and maybe give us the excitement we deserve.
  • DanB24 10 Oct 2013 19:10:54 2,381 posts
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    The Legend speaks. :D http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24465157
    Happy Birthday Murray Walker!
  • Deleted user 10 October 2013 19:16:29
    I thought he had died earlier, the bbc were reporting murray walker at 90 and i had to double check in a mild panic!
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