Motorsport Page 666

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  • Mekanik 28 May 2013 09:26:58 3,591 posts
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    All I get from that list psycho (other than the fact both Pirelli and MB screwed up a tad) is that whoever wrote that list REALLY hates MB.

    Most of the responsibility for tyre testing lies with Pirelli surely?

    According to Brawn in his interview on Sunday he asked the FIA permission and they said yes. They didn't pack up after Spain - which would NOT have gone unnoticed.

    MB MAY have gained an advantage - purely subjective.

    Other teams should have been offered the chance to do that - by Pirelli, not MB.

    RBR have turned in to old Ferrari and Ferrari are, well, Ferrari, and like to whine.

    If MB receive any race bans/championship points deductions or anything which helps RBR/Vettel I`m done with F1 this season. A fine perhaps, but then surely that should be applied to Pirelli? But how do you fine the sole tyre manufacturer?
  • Psychotext 28 May 2013 09:32:32 54,391 posts
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    Mercedes going out isn't going to help RBR / Vettel. Lotus or Ferrari going out would though.

    As good as Monaco was for them, they wont be challenging for either title at the end of the year. As for the part of it that was Mercedes fault, it's A: That they controlled the test and B: That they didn't ask FIA permission.

    Lets say some guy in work comes and says it's totally fine if you take next week off and book yourself a hotel... you're going to check with the boss before doing so.
  • Psychotext 28 May 2013 09:35:07 54,391 posts
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    Unrelated, this is very cool:

  • shamblemonkee 28 May 2013 09:44:15 14,482 posts
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    Very nice!
  • ResidentKnievel 28 May 2013 09:44:32 6,238 posts
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    :o

    That's awesome

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  • brokenkey 28 May 2013 12:00:50 7,086 posts
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    Quality is shitty, but this is how Kimi got to 10th.

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  • Deleted user 28 May 2013 12:05:13
    @Psychotext that is great!
  • Bremenacht 28 May 2013 12:09:59 18,697 posts
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    Mekanik wrote:
    According to Brawn in his interview on Sunday he asked the FIA permission and they said yes. They didn't pack up after Spain - which would NOT have gone unnoticed.
    I'm sure I've read somewhere that both RB and Ferrari were asked before the invitation went to MB. I'll have to find that Brawn interview.
  • Psychotext 28 May 2013 12:23:25 54,391 posts
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    Apparently they informally asked a Red Bull engineer if they might be interested. Ferrari still insist they weren't asked.

    More importantly though, even if they were asked, would they have assumed that they were talking about using an old car (Like Ferrari did in 2011) because of the ban on in season testing.
  • thelzdking 28 May 2013 12:35:23 4,369 posts
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    Perhaps, but if I were asked I would've requested clarification of exactly what the test would entail before assuming anything.

    Edited by thelzdking at 12:35:50 28-05-2013
  • Mekanik 28 May 2013 16:15:26 3,591 posts
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    Maybe RBR and Ferrari decided not to do this test and now regret it so are complaining because they missed out?

    Would not surprise me. How many other teams are making a fuss?
  • thelzdking 28 May 2013 16:20:29 4,369 posts
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    The only thing I'm sure of is that nobody is telling the whole truth.
  • Psychotext 28 May 2013 16:23:26 54,391 posts
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    Again, there's no way in hell either Red Bull or Ferrari would have turned down 1000km in a current car. They'd have bitten Pirelli's hand off for it.

    But it was never going to be a current car as far as they were concerned because such things are expressly forbidden. You wouldn't even try to clarify because it's always been an old car used.

    I guess there's a possibility that they explicitly told Mercedes that it would be a test on a current car, but not the others.
  • thelzdking 28 May 2013 16:36:52 4,369 posts
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    You would have to be an idiot to not ask for clarification.
  • Psychotext 28 May 2013 16:42:28 54,391 posts
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    Yeah, I really don't agree. No in season testing has been set in stone for years. /shrug

    Plus they're both still saying that they weren't formally asked anyway. /double shrug
  • thelzdking 28 May 2013 16:53:02 4,369 posts
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    In a sport like F1 assuming anything regarding the rules is stupid, especially with the tyre debacle that's going on.

    Edited by thelzdking at 17:02:47 28-05-2013
  • Psychotext 28 May 2013 18:33:57 54,391 posts
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    Seems Monaco was the first time Mercedes have run the rear tyres on the wrong sides: http://adamcooperf1.com/2013/05/28/analysis-how-pirelli-montreal-change-will-handicap-tyre-swapping-teams/



    Some arguing this as proof that they learned from the testing.
  • Mekanik 28 May 2013 23:30:11 3,591 posts
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    Psychotext wrote:
    Mercedes going out isn't going to help RBR / Vettel. Lotus or Ferrari going out would though.

    As good as Monaco was for them, they wont be challenging for either title at the end of the year. As for the part of it that was Mercedes fault, it's A: That they controlled the test and B: That they didn't ask FIA permission.

    Lets say some guy in work comes and says it's totally fine if you take next week off and book yourself a hotel... you're going to check with the boss before doing so.
    Aye true. According to Brawn on Sky telly at the weekend he asked for clarification from the FIA in writing and received it (at least, pretty sure it was writing he said). That kinda covers that.

    That's the thing I don't get, why such a fuss over a team that is incredibly unlikely to win.

    I think RBR and Ferrari want their own shot on the tyres, this has nothing to do with getting MB punished. They may yet get their way.

    Also, according to Brawn in his interview, they didn't "run" the test. He says it was their car and drivers etc but Pirelli ran it. Of course I would be very surprised if they didn't learn something from it but how much can you believe? Brawn isn't some new kid. Hes been doing it longer than most and should know these things.
  • Psychotext 29 May 2013 00:39:11 54,391 posts
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    Not entirely sure why Pirelli didn't use Alguersuari. Surely that's his job?
  • dsmx 29 May 2013 01:02:58 7,648 posts
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    I would guess that nowhere in the rules or the supposed clarification on this testing that mercedes got that the driver of the car had to be the pirelli test driver so ross brawn got his own drivers to do 1000 km of testing in the car.

    I'm getting the sense that RB and Ferrari were offered this and they turned it down thinking that they had to use a car from a few years back and the pirelli test driver. Ross Brawn on the other hand actually asked if he could use this years car, got a clarification in writing and did this entire test within the rules the clarification spelt out. Now RB and Ferrari have found out they are just annoyed and are throwing their toys out the pram because they didn't ask a very basic question.

    Edited by dsmx at 01:09:39 29-05-2013

    "If we hit that bullseye the rest of the dominoes will fall like a a house of cards, checkmate." Zapp Brannigan

  • Mekanik 29 May 2013 10:45:30 3,591 posts
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    @dsmx Yep. Thats kind of the impression i am getting.

    http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/05/what-was-behind-mercedes-and-pirelli-secret-f1-tyre-test/

    Interesting read too on the subject.
  • Psychotext 1 Jun 2013 01:54:57 54,391 posts
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    So apparently they really did go to some effort to keep it secret...


    - On Sunday evening Mercedes behaves like all other teams, loads the trucks, says bye bye and the trucks leave the Barcelona circuit for England.

    - Mercedes trucks dont drive to England, they go to the Costa Brava about 1 hour from Montmelo

    - The mechanics pretend they are on holiday in Costa Brava.

    - The problem is that laws require circuit employees, an ambulance and a helicopter be present at the circuit.

    - Stuttgart (ie Mercedes HQ) makes an offer to the circuit, triple fee but all circuit employees leave, safety and security etc will be handled by Mercedes employees.

    - A plain white transporter with no Mercedes branding arrives, one of the cars is transfered from the regular Mercedes truck to the plain white one and the regular Mercedes trucks head home at this point.

    - Hamilton and Rosberg are told to go to Montmelo with unbranded race suits/helmets so that it looks like just somebody is shooting a commercial.

    - According to rumors Michael Schumacher was also invited by Ross Brawn.

    - Pirelli complies with the whole secrecy of the test.

    - People got curious in Monte Carlo about why Rosberg/Hamilton were so confident they would go well in the grand prix and had solved the suspension problems that cause the excessive wear in Barcelona.

    - People put two and two together so Pirelli/Mercedes/whiting put togethera set of documents regarding the tests (letters between Pirelli/Mercedes etc).

    - Red Bull went nuts and asked Todt what he knew.

    - Todt only knew about half the story and he went nuts.
    Shit/Fan
  • Raiko101 1 Jun 2013 06:28:12 6,409 posts
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    If that's true, Mercedes should get a multiple race ban. It's cheeky and they've clearly benefited from it. Perhaps a 3 race ban to cover the distance they ran during the test.

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  • mal 1 Jun 2013 07:04:05 22,683 posts
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    Given the way F1 works encourages creative ways of manipulating the rules in chassis design, it's not surprising those same brains are going to look at what they can get away with regarding other rules that might be applies. I reckon Braun's made sure the team complied all the way with the letter of the law, even if it broke the intention of the rules. As such they'll have difficulty applying a penalty because of rule breaking, although given the current media feeling towards Mercedes, they could probably just slap them with a penalty because they felt like it and get away with it.

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  • Saucy 1 Jun 2013 07:34:51 2,604 posts
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    It's just all very strange, there was no way they could keep it a complete secret. Clearly against the spirit of the rules, but Brawn has a history finding loopholes.

    FIA threw McLaren out of the constructors championship in 2007, but this thing doesn't have Moseley leading it as a personal crusade. If guilty, probably get a race ban. Personally, I think they should be made to sit out practice sessions for three races and not turn a wheel until Qualy.
  • dsmx 1 Jun 2013 12:38:24 7,648 posts
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    no set of events are ever that one sided, that read like someone putting a load of events together and trying to make Mercedes look as deceitful as possible.

    "If we hit that bullseye the rest of the dominoes will fall like a a house of cards, checkmate." Zapp Brannigan

  • shamblemonkee 1 Jun 2013 13:05:18 14,482 posts
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    yeah without a source and all that suddenly coming to light it's as dodgy as what it claims to cover.
  • altitude2k 1 Jun 2013 13:05:53 4,566 posts
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    Genuinely a bit concerned that Mercedes won't be allowed to run when I go to Silverstone.

    That said, this is hardly the drivers' fault, and I imagine I'm not the only one who would have something to say about Hamilton not running in the British GP. Sponsors would love that, I'm sure...
  • dsmx 1 Jun 2013 13:24:23 7,648 posts
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    I'm thinking that Mercedes did pack up and go to Silverstone, the mechanics went and had a few days holiday since they were already in a nice part of the world and the unmarked trucks and driver clothes were because this wasn't an event that was going to be televised and no press were invited and chances are Mercedes went and hired a truck to ship a car to do the testing since they didn't have another one spare since all theirs were being used shipping Mercedes equipment to Silverstone. Track staff is a bit harder to explain away if that's even true which I doubt.

    That is paraphrasing the event above a bit but it's just as equally valid.

    Edited by dsmx at 13:25:13 01-06-2013

    "If we hit that bullseye the rest of the dominoes will fall like a a house of cards, checkmate." Zapp Brannigan

  • Bremenacht 1 Jun 2013 14:16:41 18,697 posts
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    I'm pretty sure that if Brawn did direct any of this, it would be within the rules. If so, Mercedes will be asked if they'd accept a tap on the wrist in order to help PR the whole issue away. Brawn won a WC through finding gaps in rule sets.

    I also read somewhere (same source as last time) that Red Bull and Ferrari were offered testing but were 'too busy'.
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