Motorsport Page 659

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  • altitude2k 12 May 2013 20:02:34 3,844 posts
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    NSFA* warning next time...please.

    *anywhere
  • superdelphinus 12 May 2013 20:15:13 8,035 posts
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    Yes I don't disagree that they have to design cars around the regulations, obviously. I just don't think this race was a 'game changer' and Ferrari did something mental that no one could predict and everyone will now start doing. I think the thing about these tyres is that they are extremely difficult to get to work consistently and most teams, if not all, have given up to an extent and instead just take loads of pace off the car all the time. We've always had tyre degradation ( I have also been watching it for roughly 25 years or so), but this feels different. At one stage this race (the whole first stint at least) they were running only about 2 seconds faster than the gp2 sprint race. That is crap. I said it on here a while ago that I like f1 for its stupidly fast cars and drivers racing on the limits of grip, not degradation. I get that sometimes it used to be boring for some people, but this is boring for me now. If i wanted to watch loads of overtaking all the time i'd watch other motorsports. Honestly not engaging with this season at all yet.
  • RobTheBuilder 12 May 2013 20:23:15 6,521 posts
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    It was ALWAYS boring for a long time! The removal of artificial aids has made it much more about control and grip, but unless something is done to make trailing a car a bonus not a hindrance there will have to be something 'artificial' to make it more exciting.

    I think certainly the level of degradation could be lowered which would allow drivers to push more without getting rid of the shuffle and variance of these tyres.

    As I said, hopefully the changes to aero and engines next year will allow closer racing whilst also allowing more on the edge performance.

    Edited by RobTheBuilder at 20:24:23 12-05-2013
  • Psychotext 12 May 2013 20:35:06 53,849 posts
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    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    Some years have refuelling, some have one tyre, some have two, etc etc. the teams job is to make the best of the rules and settings they are given. If they are unhappy take it up with Bernie instead of bad mouthing the sport and a tyre company doing the job it was asked to.
    They did the job they were asked to do last year and it was fine. This year they've gone way too far.
  • Bremenacht 12 May 2013 20:41:16 17,613 posts
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    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    Everyone knows the Pirelli tyres are short lasting and fragile, ... Hardly the fault of Pirelli who are designing to the spec they have been given.
    Are Pirelli not changing the tyre compounds on a regular basis throughout the season? Bit tricky designing a car for tyres that change all the time. If Pirelli are being asked to change tyre compounds all the time, what's to stop someone like Bernie telling Pirelli to produce compounds that favour Ferrari's balance, or Red Bell's design? Nothing. That would be 'scripted' racing and it would be terrible.

    I really enjoyed this race. I loved the variables and the way it wasn't completely clear who the winner was going to be until quite late on. I liked the chewed up tyres, because it meant more pit-stops which meant more variables, a chopped-up field and more overtaking. But, you cannot have different Grand Prix with completely unpredictable tyres. That's not racing - that's a lottery.
  • superdelphinus 12 May 2013 20:54:33 8,035 posts
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    I'm not exactly sure what the changes to the aero regs are going to be next year? It's still going to be an aero dominated formula as far as I'm aware, though the engines will shake things up a bit no doubt.

    I disagree that it was always boring for a long time. The only boring bits I can remember were during some of the Schumacher era. Today we had one of the fastest drivers of his generation saying "I can't drive any slower"! What a waste
  • RobTheBuilder 12 May 2013 20:58:56 6,521 posts
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    @Bremenacht tyre compound have always changed throughout the season. The only difference is now they can change both ways. It may be they are too fragile now, but its not like the teams don't have two years of knowledge about the kinds of tyres there will be.

    They are a little unpredictable, but at least everyone has the same tyres to figure out. I recall when the bridgestones were made for Ferrari and no one else, that was awful.

    Edited by RobTheBuilder at 21:00:34 12-05-2013
  • Kid_Icarus 12 May 2013 21:13:31 556 posts
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    The tyres are awful, no question about that, it's just the Mercedes is so much harder on them. Most of the teams are still evenly matched in terms of their tyres, they just don't last as long as previous years.

    And as bad as they may seem now, its still not as bad as that race we had in the US with only Ferrari and Jordon taking part.
  • Bremenacht 12 May 2013 21:22:35 17,613 posts
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    They've always changed throughout the season? I didn't know that.
  • RobTheBuilder 12 May 2013 21:52:03 6,521 posts
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    @Kid_Icarus the tyres are designed that way at the request of the fia because the Bridgestone that preceded it were so constant as to make the race even more dull
  • RobTheBuilder 12 May 2013 21:53:06 6,521 posts
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    @Bremenacht usually yeah. For instance The six wheeled tyrell in the 70's only fell behind because the unique small tyres were developed less than the big ones.
  • superdelphinus 12 May 2013 22:03:14 8,035 posts
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    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/may/12/fernando-alonso-f1-spanish-grand-prix
  • Bremenacht 12 May 2013 22:09:05 17,613 posts
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    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    They are a little unpredictable, but at least everyone has the same tyres to figure out. I recall when the bridgestones were made for Ferrari and no one else, that was awful.
    Going back to this, what's to stop Bernie from telling Pirelli to produce a tyre that suits Ferrari now? Or Red Bull?

    i.e A team designs a car. Bernie keeps telling Pirelli to change compounds until they produce one that suits that team?
  • superdelphinus 12 May 2013 22:15:08 8,035 posts
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    nothing in principle, but (at least, ostensibly) one of the main points of bringing in tyres like this was to reduce the chances of the Ferrari/ schuey domination years from happening again so it's unlikely he'd want that to happen again. that period killed a lot of the 'casual fan' interest

    Edited by superdelphinus at 22:15:54 12-05-2013
  • RobTheBuilder 12 May 2013 22:15:56 6,521 posts
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    @Bremenacht well Bernie doesn't specify the exact tyre, but the task they gave to Pirelli was to make tyres that wore faster to create a bigger differential between new and worn tyres - in order to avoid the dull races of Schumacher era

    Edited by RobTheBuilder at 22:16:49 12-05-2013
  • Kid_Icarus 12 May 2013 22:20:49 556 posts
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    @RobTheBuilder I'm aware of that, but just because something is awful by design doesn't excuse it from being awful.

    There's a fine line between making the tyres a bit unpredictable for the sake of an interesting race and making them almost completely unusable. Unfortunately Pirelli have fallen onto the wrong side of that line this season.

    It could still make for interesting races, and it has in a way, but when some of the fastest cars on the grid can't compete you know it's a mess.
  • RobTheBuilder 12 May 2013 22:34:43 6,521 posts
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    @Kid_Icarus I don't call tyres that make exciting racing awful. I think they may have gone too far, but they are still better than what came before.

    Of course, and I think other than this race and a couple of others they have walked that line well. They'll listen and adjust I'm sure, I read somewhere they were already planning to do so. We really don't need the old super reliable super boring tyres though.

    That's a misnomer. The fastest car is made up of many factors, and if they don't work with the tyres it means they haven't designed it to the best of the rules, ergo its not the fastest car. Ferrari and red bull clearly can get good performance without destroying the tyres. It's the same as finding the balance between reliability and speed, and between speed and downforce.
  • Psychotext 12 May 2013 22:35:36 53,849 posts
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  • Bremenacht 12 May 2013 22:50:06 17,613 posts
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    It's certainly less dull, I can't disagree with that. But as someone else said, we've already got DRS and KERS. Chewing gum tyres are fine if they're chewing gums tyres all season. Not bakelite tyres one race, chewing gum the next, then (if what the Pirelli guys says is true) bakelite again in a few weeks. That's a fix. As much a fix as Ferrari having their own tyres. Where's the sense in a 'medium' tyre lasting longer than a 'hard' tyre? May as well have a 'bowser's castle' tyre.

    I thought that one of the points of pre-season testing is to help teams understand the tyres and adjust their setups to work with them. What's the point of that now? May as well just guess, or hope Bernie favours your team.

    I do wonder if the incredible failure of McLaren to win a Team Championship in the past 15 years is really down to drivers, poor cars or by the script.
  • superdelphinus 12 May 2013 22:53:16 8,035 posts
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    is that a McLaren?
  • superdelphinus 12 May 2013 22:55:30 8,035 posts
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    @Bremenacht I think McLaren's 'failure' is that their operations side is often crap. they've certainly had the drivers in that period, and quite often the cars too, but they drop the ball to often as a team
  • superdelphinus 12 May 2013 22:58:29 8,035 posts
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    I think it's more dull at the moment, not less. I agree with everything in that article apart from the bit about the racing happening in the last stint. One thing I've noticed in the last couple of races is that the cars all just seem to hold station for the last 10-15 laps. probably just scared the tyres will plunge over the cliff in the last couple of laps if they try and push
  • SolidSCB 12 May 2013 23:01:29 6,404 posts
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    They've built quite a few uncompetetive shitboxes since they last won the constructors too. An extremely hit and miss team, and even when they experience good seasons they find a way to cock it up somehow.
  • RobTheBuilder 12 May 2013 23:05:00 6,521 posts
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    @SolidSCB definitely. It seems every other season mclaren does something different and ends up behind at the start of the season.

    The constrictor issue is partly because they allow their drivers to race. They really messed up last season, they lost the championship more than red bull won it in some respects.
  • superdelphinus 12 May 2013 23:11:17 8,035 posts
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    last season was amazing really.
  • Psychotext 12 May 2013 23:23:29 53,849 posts
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    superdelphinus wrote:
    is that a McLaren?
    Perez.
  • mal 12 May 2013 23:36:27 22,339 posts
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    I dunno how possible it is to design a car to not use its tyres as hard, short of making it lighter, slower or with less downforce. What does seem to make a difference is how smooth the driver is (or something like that - I recall Button is famous for being smooth, but he doesn't seem to have as much luck with the tyres as some of them). And that's the best thing about the racing at the moment IMO - that it's significantly down to the drivers for the first time in ages. It may not be the metric of how fast the driver is in a straight line, or even on a quali lap, but it's a valid component of how good a driver is IMO.

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • Kid_Icarus 13 May 2013 01:40:21 556 posts
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    @RobTheBuilder I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on whether or not it's more exciting. A 2 hour race where the drivers are only really racing for the first 5 laps and the final 5 laps isn't my idea of exciting. I will maintain that they are awful though, there's been quite a few delaminations from 'debris' this season already.

    I don't think there's any chance of going back to the overly reliable days though. They've been pretty good for the past few years, with just one team typically struggling with wear. Last year in particular seemed spot on.

    Also I think referring to the Mercedes as 'one of the fastest cars' is fair. Obviously race pace is crap, but that's sort of my point. They locked out the front row so they definitely have the speed. Reliability and tyre wear don't determine who's fastest, just who wins the race.
  • Nth 13 May 2013 07:31:08 3,119 posts
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    As the Mercedes is so hard on tyres why on earth did they do a 3 stop strategy?
  • superdelphinus 13 May 2013 08:00:15 8,035 posts
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    @mal I disagree - I think the drivers have a relatively small impact at the moment - they're all driving to target laptimes based on their car's treatment of the tyres - probably interchangeable throughout 90% of the grid. I wouldn't be surprised to only see 4 cars out in q3 in canada
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