Motorsport Page 586

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  • superdelphinus 28 Sep 2012 23:07:01 8,011 posts
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    And yes, the Williams one is what I wanted to but I think that would always be out of the question. For now (hopefully)
  • urban 30 Sep 2012 18:32:50 10,923 posts
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    Only got around to watching the Singapore race yesterday, straight up DULL.
    Glad I completely forgot it was on that weekend.
  • AaronTurner 30 Sep 2012 18:50:51 7,591 posts
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    I think McLaren have consistently put together fantastic cars since 98. They are without a doubt one of the teams where its possible to win championships. I don't see how they don't have ambition, they are one of the most ambitious teams out there. They have a fantastic opportunity to win this season, and when you consider that Alonso is out in front in the third or fourth beat car then its up to the drivers to pull their fingers out and get moving.
  • urban 30 Sep 2012 18:54:04 10,923 posts
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    Hamilton move to Mercedes is not a bad one so long as Brawn stays there.
  • Raiko101 30 Sep 2012 19:04:39 6,052 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    I think McLaren have consistently put together fantastic cars since 98. They are without a doubt one of the teams where its possible to win championships. I don't see how they don't have ambition, they are one of the most ambitious teams out there. They have a fantastic opportunity to win this season, and when you consider that Alonso is out in front in the third or fourth beat car then its up to the drivers to pull their fingers out and get moving.
    I think Mclaren's problem is that although they've been very competitive since 2007, they've only won 1 driver's championship. It's not entirely their fault, but they've not been performing as well as a team as others have. Hamilton has thrown away far more chances than his team, but Mclaren throw away more chances than any other team. They're very good at shooting themselves in the foot. :(

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  • superdelphinus 30 Sep 2012 19:33:59 8,011 posts
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    They're great at building race winning cars, less so at winning championships over extended periods.
  • Bremenacht 30 Sep 2012 22:49:26 17,600 posts
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    They also seem to let their drivers race eachother, rather than build the car around the best driver. Good for entertainment; not so good for success.

    I think Hamilton has blown his chances of future success with this move, so he'd better win this year because it's his last chance of success for the next 4 or 5 years. I agree that anything to do with Brawn is good, but they need a car and Mercedes just can't work it out. I think any suggestion that Mercedes will be much stronger with the new engines is ridiculous. Stronger than McLaren or Red Bull or Ferrari? Why should that be?

    Maybe the idea of being *the* man at Mercedes appeals to his ego, but I'd prefer a Lewis who does the business on the track, rather than off it. I very much feel he wants what Alonso's got.
  • SolidSCB 30 Sep 2012 22:57:46 6,386 posts
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    I agree. I just don't see Mercedes suddenly becoming a major force ahead of or matching Red Bull, Ferrari or McLaren. They have done absolutely nothing to suggest they could trump those three teams regularly. It's quite blatantly a commercial move, not a racing one.
  • shamblemonkee 30 Sep 2012 23:14:27 14,256 posts
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    very nasty moto gp accident today - looks a bit silly until the end:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEe6Rz3a1_g



    apparently ok and released from medical
  • AaronTurner 30 Sep 2012 23:46:28 7,591 posts
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    Mercedes will definitely be a major team in the near future. Their financial clout and resources will have a bearing on that. They're going through changes at the moment and whilst I'm sure they would rather be in a better position, they aren't doing badly. They're only going to move upwards. I don't think Hamilton will be without a race winning car.
  • superdelphinus 30 Sep 2012 23:46:36 8,011 posts
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    Bremenacht wrote:
    I think any suggestion that Mercedes will be much stronger with the new engines is ridiculous. Stronger than McLaren or Red Bull or Ferrari? Why should that be?
    I guess because merc have a version of that very engine on a dyno now, 18 months or so in advance. that has got to be some sort of advantage over McLaren as a customer. not so much Ferrari for obvious reasons
  • mal 1 Oct 2012 00:27:45 22,332 posts
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    shamblemonkee wrote:
    very nasty moto gp accident today - looks a bit silly until the end:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEe6Rz3a1_g



    apparently ok and released from medical
    You can see him try to get the bike over so he slaps the barrier and lays it down rather than what happened, but the back wheel's just slipping all over the place and continues to slip further as he tries to correct and flip it the other way, and ends up setting him up for an end-on into the fence.

    I guess he's lucky the slowmo seems to show he landed on his legs. Don't want to land on your back if you can help it.

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • Bremenacht 1 Oct 2012 02:42:42 17,600 posts
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    superdelphinus wrote:
    Bremenacht wrote:
    I think any suggestion that Mercedes will be much stronger with the new engines is ridiculous. Stronger than McLaren or Red Bull or Ferrari? Why should that be?
    I guess because merc have a version of that very engine on a dyno now, 18 months or so in advance. that has got to be some sort of advantage over McLaren as a customer. not so much Ferrari for obvious reasons
    Do we know that McLaren aren't testing their own? They said they'd make it. They could also buy from Renault (who are also testing) or Cosworth. Have Mercedes engines been noticably more powerful than the Renault engines this season?

    Mercedes should be in a better position already. Replacing a 7-times champion with a 1-time champion isn't likely to help them. If they don't build a better car, they're not likely to help Lewis either.
  • Fat_Pigeon 1 Oct 2012 03:26:37 9,796 posts
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    A 7 time champion who isn't performing and well past his best and currently being trounced in the championship by his non championship winning team mate.

    Or a driver that is in form is winning races constantly proves he is still of the fastest men in the grid. Even if he is a bit of a dick he's a better choice than shumi

    As for hamiltons chances at Mercedes. Next season may be a struggle. But they have a good team at Mercedes with a lot of talent and the money to back it. Come the rule changes in 2014 I think they will be a major contender. Don't forget red bull practically came from nowhere around about the same time as major rule changes. Now your are saying that a team the size of Mercedes cannot possibly get anywhere near them within 5 or 6 seasons

    Edited by Fat_Pigeon at 11:37:23 01-10-2012
  • Kostabi 1 Oct 2012 07:00:05 4,874 posts
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    Mercedes are the next Toyota F1.
  • superdelphinus 1 Oct 2012 08:55:28 8,011 posts
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    Mclaren will almost certainly build their own engines at some point in the future, but they are a customer until 2015 I think
  • superdelphinus 1 Oct 2012 09:00:57 8,011 posts
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    Also as far as I remember the aero rules won't be changing much for '14 which makes the power of the engine more important, something which I would favour mercedes for historically (as well as Ferrari)
  • Cosquae 1 Oct 2012 09:08:02 1,204 posts
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    @superdelphinus There is one important aero rule for 2014 as far as I'm aware and that's the exit of the exhausts moving to the back underside of the car (where the rain light is currently).

    Designed to eliminate exhaust blowing of the diffuser entirely. There goes some more rear downforce.
  • AceGrace 1 Oct 2012 12:26:00 1,013 posts
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    Raiko101 wrote:
    AaronTurner wrote:
    I think McLaren have consistently put together fantastic cars since 98. They are without a doubt one of the teams where its possible to win championships. I don't see how they don't have ambition, they are one of the most ambitious teams out there. They have a fantastic opportunity to win this season, and when you consider that Alonso is out in front in the third or fourth beat car then its up to the drivers to pull their fingers out and get moving.
    I think Mclaren's problem is that although they've been very competitive since 2007, they've only won 1 driver's championship. It's not entirely their fault, but they've not been performing as well as a team as others have. Hamilton has thrown away far more chances than his team, but Mclaren throw away more chances than any other team. They're very good at shooting themselves in the foot. :(
    And don't forget they now have Sam Michaels! :lol:
  • Bremenacht 1 Oct 2012 13:16:45 17,600 posts
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    Fat_Pigeon wrote:
    Don't forget red bull practically came from nowhere around about the same time as major rule changes. Now your are saying that a team the size of Mercedes cannot possibly get anywhere near them within 5 or 6 seasons
    That's true, but I say that's a got a lot more to do with Adrian Newey than any of their drivers.

    To be fair to Schumacher (and I really don't like being fair to Schumacher, the cheating hun) he knows a lot more about winning WDC titles than anyone and he knows how to get the best out of a team built around him. He had part of that team wih him at Mercedes - Ross Brawn. It should be a dream team, but -and this is my long-winded point- they've not got the car. They bought a title-winning team, they should be doing better. They need something more than Lewis Hamilton to become a race winning team.

    BMW quit after a few years with just one win in the bag. Mercedes have just the one win at the moment. They seem set on being around for some years yet, but I don't think they'll want to stay in F1 if they're not winning. Then again, I'm not great on F1 predictions (see the Castrol predictor league), so don't listen to me!
  • Kostabi 1 Oct 2012 17:31:28 4,874 posts
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    Red Bull actually inherited a very good team in Jaguar and then added Adrian Newey - someone who Jaguar actually tried to hire once upon a time anyway. Sometimes I think it gets forgotten just what a solid grounding Red Bull had when they entered as a team.
  • Psychotext 1 Oct 2012 18:00:50 53,777 posts
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    They were still shit the first three years though. :)
  • Kostabi 1 Oct 2012 18:21:45 4,874 posts
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    It still irks me Ford shit canned the project as they really were so close to cracking it. Plus that green was lovely. ;)
  • SolidSCB 1 Oct 2012 19:48:14 6,386 posts
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    I do miss the Jags on the grid. Lovely cars they were.
  • SaucyGeoff 2 Oct 2012 09:02:52 2,559 posts
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    5 place grid drop for Jenson in Japan. His gearbox has the same issue that put Lewis out in Singapore, so needs changing. Bit of a blow though, I'd of thought the McLaren would be the class of the field at Suzuka.
  • superdelphinus 2 Oct 2012 09:15:23 8,011 posts
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    Might work out ok for button though, force him to try a different strategy from the front pack
  • Cosquae 2 Oct 2012 09:16:25 1,204 posts
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    @SaucyGeoff High speed downforce track... expect Red Bull to shine here. They're due one at least.
  • shamblemonkee 2 Oct 2012 09:24:17 14,256 posts
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    Yeah I'd expect the same grid as last year (swapping massa with alonso) perhaps
  • superdelphinus 2 Oct 2012 09:34:29 8,011 posts
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    I expect something similar to catalunya personally
  • SaucyGeoff 2 Oct 2012 09:42:20 2,559 posts
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    Yeah, I'd have thought we'd get something similar to Catalunya or Spa with McLaren leading the way (in qualifying at least), Red Bull have shown race pace at these circuits with High Speed corners, but Vettel really needs to make sure he doesn't qualify behind Williams and Sauber drivers. Otherwise he could have Catalunya/Hungary experience where he spends the whole race stuck behind slower cars.

    IIRC Lewis looked good for pole last year, but didn't get across the line in time to start his final hot lap.

    Edited by SaucyGeoff at 09:44:58 02-10-2012
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