Star Trek Page 136

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  • DrStrangelove 10 Oct 2017 08:45:34 11,031 posts
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    simpleexplodingmaybe wrote:
    Guys I have a question

    If you filmed the exact same scripts as they had at the time but with modern production values would TOS be the darkest of the previous Trek tv shows?

    It feels like every week people are being in horrific ways by horrible diseases or hideous monsters, life sucked from their bodies, murdered and replaced by alien or robot clones.

    TNG is always pretty cosy, DS9 has the war sure but there's Quark's and Voyager is reasonably perilous but never to the point where you feel like child murder would probably be justified
    It's true that in TOS more people die and that a life doesn't seem to count as much as in later shows, but I think that's in line with its more confrontational space western nature where diplomacy should be avoided whenever fisticuffs are an option.

    I also think it has to do with historical background, the generation of Shatner and Nimoy had consciously witnessed WW2 (they were 14 when it ended--DeForest Kelley was 25), and TOS was aired at times when the Vietnam war was going on. I imagine that may have an impact on how much attention is paid to the loss of a single life. I don't mean this in a dismissive way, I just believe they were much more used to violent loss of life than most of us. TNG's "wise elder" Patrick Stewart was 4 years old at the end of WW2, so imo Star Trek is a truly post-world-war-generation show beginning with TNG.

    However, at the same time TOS was very optimistic and progressive. On the bridge you had Sulu, Chekov and Uhura--again, while the Vietnam war was going on and only two years after racial segregation was outlawed in the USA. It was about a bright future in which mankind would have left behind its much darker present.

    Where it gets really obnoxious is Kirk repeatedly lecturing superpowered beings about how great it is to be human. I actually shouted at the TV screen once, demanding he finally shut up with that tiresome wank.

    Funny enough, early TNG (which feels very TOS-y in hindsight) picked up on that right in the beginning with Q--thankfully Q proved to be smart and challenging enough over the series to not let Picard get away so easily.

    Anyway, TNG. I disagree with it being "always pretty cosy". I understand where that sentiment comes from, especially in the beginning it suffered from the broken premise of a future where everyone's friends with each other. There's also this bright "technology can solve any problem" attitude, but that is shattered when the Borg appear, the antithesis to that attitude. Not only do they represent the dark side of technology, the Enterprise's technology is no match for them: they are such a threat that Picard can't save the Enterprise on their first encounter and has to beg Q to save them. Unheard of in TOS. TOS had crazy scientists, ghosts made of pure negative emotions, dinosaur people, genetically engineered superhumans, Abraham Lincoln etc., but nothing as menacing as the Borg.

    There have been other pretty dark moments in TNG too. The Klingons tend to be stereotypical, but Picard and the Enterprise getting involved in their politics could be pretty interesting at times (I frankly can't see the sedatives that are Discovery's Klingons going anywhere).

    Another thing I'd like to mention: in TOS, Kirk can usually solve problems while following his ideals and instincts. A recurring theme of Picard is that he's confronted with difficult problems (often involving the Prime Directive) that require unpleasant decisions. I think TOS is being much more optimistic in that regard.

    Yes, TNG was often pretty cosy, more than I'd like, but what I'm saying is that it's a show that knows all extremes, in character as well as in quality (its first season alone has several of the worst episodes in Trek history). I'd say one of TNG's standout characteristics is its inconsistent, almost bipolar nature. No other Trek series shows such a mixture of light and darkness, of brilliance and utter failure.

    Edited by DrStrangelove at 08:56:51 10-10-2017
  • DrStrangelove 10 Oct 2017 08:53:11 11,031 posts
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    JoelStinty wrote:
    Zerobob wrote:
    GoodForm wrote:
    Favorite moment of the episode. That time when that overconfident security chief won the darwin award.
    Yeah that scene / character decision seemed really out of place. Do you think the actress requested she was written out of the show or something?
    Tasha yar died within ... something like 8 episodes.
    That was episode 23 actually. Actress Denise Crosby was (understandably) very unsatisfied over the course of season 1 and decided to quit the show, so Tasha died. Cmdr. Landry who died in episode 4 of Discovery was only introduced the episode before if I'm not mistaken, so that can hardly be the result of dissatisfaction with where the show was going.

    Bit of a shame, as (early as it is to tell) from the cast that I've seen so far, she was on top of my list of who I hoped to see more of. Her dumb behaviour did justify her death though.

    Edited by DrStrangelove at 09:07:46 10-10-2017
  • Jyzzy-Z 10 Oct 2017 09:29:02 2,159 posts
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    I can't be arsed to watch this to be honest. I gave it 3 episodes I think that's enough to determine it's not really for me. Seems like a very poor mans BSG crossed with JJ Trek lite for TV. I also really don't like prequels, same reason ENT never got me going. I don't know who this show is for really, but it's definitely not me.

    It all seemed very promising from pre-production, I thought the anthology series idea sounded fantastic. If they ever get around to making that I'd give it a go.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 10 Oct 2017 10:39:33 4,242 posts
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    @DrStrangelove Crosby's comeback episodes were a bit all over the place though. Like one great (second) send off and then a load of nonsense
  • RobAnybody 10 Oct 2017 10:48:44 1,485 posts
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    Well, I'm also giving up on this - it's not the Star Trek that I had hoped for. Even the turgid Enterprise was 'better'. And as for the newly revamped Klingons, they're crap - all scenes with them are as dull as ditchwater.
  • DrStrangelove 10 Oct 2017 10:56:42 11,031 posts
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    simpleexplodingmaybe wrote:
    @DrStrangelove Crosby's comeback episodes were a bit all over the place though. Like one great (second) send off and then a load of nonsense
    I'm certainly not going to defend TNG on these issues
  • Rivuzu 10 Oct 2017 11:01:18 16,510 posts
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    I think this is a Star Trek show for non-Star Trek fans.

    In that respect, I'm really enjoying it. Missus, not so much. Very on the fence after the 4th.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 10 Oct 2017 11:18:53 4,242 posts
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    @DrStrangelove I'd never considered the post-WW2 generation thing on being reflected in the relative cheapness of life in the two series but I think I agree.

    TOS as space Western always had the frontiersman sense of danger and unknown but a desperation to it too. In its best moments anyway. Humanity out there trying to make the best of itself amid the darkness.

    Or at least until the darkness's mum turns up to tell it off anyway.

    I'm in the middle of some of the chase for the mutineer stuff in DS9 too so the cultural Borg of TNG and it's technology are front and centre at the moment. Although I suppose the fears of accession to the Federation that the Bajorans face is similar.
  • challenge_hanukkah 10 Oct 2017 11:32:51 5,055 posts
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    Do any Star Trek fans actually like any Star Trek?
  • BigOrkWaaagh 10 Oct 2017 11:37:50 6,552 posts
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    I'm a Star Trek fan and I like most stuff that bears the name without too much nerdy whinging. I'm enjoying this and I liked Enterprise. It's all good.
  • dankcushions 10 Oct 2017 13:14:05 319 posts
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    i like michael and that's the thing keeping me watching. that's probably enough.

    i thought the setup after episode 3 was really interesting but now XO is dead and michael's field promotion can't be more than an episode away. meanwhile klingons seem to have divided quicker than they were united. i wonder who's organising these raids whilst whitey was scrounging gagh out the bins?

    there's not really any stakes to it anymore.
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 10 Oct 2017 13:50:44 4,242 posts
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    Speaking of light and darkness

    Im busy watching Sisko commit a straight up war crime using chemical weapons and destroying all life on a separatist planet just to capture one man.

    I'd forgotten how good Sisko is as a Captain. Easily the one with the most intense person journey during his command, Space Jesus or not.

    It's not even a bluff to lure the traitor out either, a whole planet's atmosphere poisoned and thousands fleeing for their lives.
  • Cosmical 10 Oct 2017 14:31:12 108 posts
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    to be honest that was a bit weak.

    the space spores idea is rather lame
  • Cosmical 10 Oct 2017 14:32:23 108 posts
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    BigOrkWaaagh wrote:
    I'm a Star Trek fan and I like most stuff that bears the name without too much nerdy whinging. I'm enjoying this and I liked Enterprise. It's all good.
    Enterprise is criminally underrated. It has no more than any of the other series' its share of duff episodes. Archer was a great captain
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 10 Oct 2017 14:34:36 4,242 posts
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    My complete rewatch still has two seasons of DS9 and all of Voyager to go but I'm hoping the ability to skip Enterprise's theme tune on Netflix helps me reappraise the show.
  • CrispyXUKTurbo 10 Oct 2017 16:20:47 1,162 posts
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    You can indeed, although you might wanna watch the mirror version of it at least once.
  • GoodForm 10 Oct 2017 17:05:21 1,722 posts
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    Zerobob wrote:
    GoodForm wrote:
    Favorite moment of the episode. That time when that overconfident security chief won the darwin award.
    Yeah that scene / character decision seemed really out of place. Do you think the actress requested she was written out of the show or something?
    I actually genuinely loved that scene, exactly because it was so unexpected. It's like the showrunners tossed the Star Trek rulebook. It was a bold move, and I enjoyed that boldness.
  • Rivuzu 10 Oct 2017 17:28:13 16,510 posts
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    Tossed the Star Trek one, picked up the Game of Thrones one.
  • RobAnybody 10 Oct 2017 20:19:47 1,485 posts
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    Rivuzu wrote:
    Tossed the Star Trek one, picked up the Game of Thrones one.
    Unfortunately they picked up the one that was missing most of its pages.
  • DrStrangelove 10 Oct 2017 20:51:54 11,031 posts
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    Cosmical wrote:
    BigOrkWaaagh wrote:
    I'm a Star Trek fan and I like most stuff that bears the name without too much nerdy whinging. I'm enjoying this and I liked Enterprise. It's all good.
    Enterprise is criminally underrated. It has no more than any of the other series' its share of duff episodes. Archer was a great captain
    I'm only in season 2's first half right now, but so far I disagree. There actually wasn't a really terrible episode (iirc), but very most time is spent in depressing mediocrity--or worse. It's woefully unimaginative, almost all scripts are taken from mediocre TNG/Voyager episodes. It's a waste recycling show. If anything, watching Enterprise gives me a feeling that Star Trek did need a fresh start, it just couldn't go on forever like that. So that's one point of approval for Discovery from me there, even if I don't like where it's going.

    The most telling moment for me was an episode somewhere in the middle of season 1 ("Dear Doctor"), when I was downright shocked: "wow, this is actually good". It was nowhere near as good as the strong episodes of TNG or DS9, but it stood out against the rest of Enterprise. I think Enterprise's season 1 had 2 fairly strong episodes, about 5 ok ones, and the rest was just a waste of time with nothing interesting happening. That's not enough.

    I also think Archer was the weakest Star Trek captain so far. I still have about 2.7 seasons to go, but what I've seen so far was sadly even less interesting than Voyager.

    Edited by DrStrangelove at 20:54:54 10-10-2017
  • Kronos 10 Oct 2017 21:02:09 681 posts
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    RobAnybody wrote:
    Rivuzu wrote:
    Tossed the Star Trek one, picked up the Game of Thrones one.
    Unfortunately they picked up the one that was missing most of its pages.
    ..and filled the gaps with pages from Farscape.
  • millerlfc 10 Oct 2017 21:20:40 526 posts
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    The 'Darwin Award' moment made it hard for me to like the episode, just seemed so incredibly stupid.

    Also not liking this travel-anywhere-instantly drive. Surely makes them unstoppable (although I imagine the crew will continue making stupid decisions to counter-balance this).
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 10 Oct 2017 21:29:43 4,242 posts
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    I can't imagine Yar, Worf, Odo, Kira or Eddington making the same mistake if they had a Pinky demon locked away like that. Standards for Star Fleet tactical/security officer training obviously weren't as high back in the old days
  • reviewer 10 Oct 2017 21:34:52 4,640 posts
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    For those complaining it's not trek enough for them, what's the actual problem with it? Even then it seems decent enough to not just stop watching it.

    Most of the other treks have loads of episodes far worse than anything I've seen so far, like all those TNG historical holodeck episodes.
  • DrStrangelove 10 Oct 2017 21:40:43 11,031 posts
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    Am I the only one who thinks Burnham was also asking for a Darwin award by needlessly putting her life at risk like that?
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 10 Oct 2017 21:45:01 4,242 posts
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    I think it's not Trek-ness comes from it being a darker more action focussed show. It's a show about conflict rather than resolution and the cast aren't all selecting the paragon choices at the rate they did in previous series (especially TNG).

    I still think it's a good show though. You'd struggle to have a TNG show taken seriously these days.
  • DrStrangelove 10 Oct 2017 21:53:42 11,031 posts
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    reviewer wrote:
    For those complaining it's not trek enough for them, what's the actual problem with it? Even then it seems decent enough to not just stop watching it.

    Most of the other treks have loads of episodes far worse than anything I've seen so far, like all those TNG historical holodeck episodes.
    What I liked most about Star Trek was a sense of exploration, wonder, curiosity. Even Enterprise had that to some extent. Discovery so far doesn't.

    And in Trek's better moments, you had multi-dimensional characters that weren't just empty caricatures. It may be too early to tell, but as far as I'm concerned, Discovery has yet to deliver on the character level.

    It may be too early to judge the character thing, we're only 4 episodes in, and it wouldn't be the first Trek series to not develop interesting characters at that point. But about my former issue, to me Discovery looks like a series that will ignore that aspect.
  • DrStrangelove 10 Oct 2017 21:58:00 11,031 posts
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    simpleexplodingmaybe wrote:

    I still think it's a good show though. You'd struggle to have a TNG show taken seriously these days.
    I find it much harder to take what I've seen so far serious than any of TNG but its most wretched episodes, even today.

    However, it feels somewhat odd to compare Discovery to previous Trek series. You can compare the first 5 Trek series with each other because they all do something similar. Discovery goes in a completely different direction. It's like arguing if death metal or black metal is better.

    Although it must be said that objectively, black metal is better.

    Edited by DrStrangelove at 21:58:41 10-10-2017
  • simpleexplodingmaybe 10 Oct 2017 22:12:14 4,242 posts
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    Black Metal is definitely better
  • millerlfc 10 Oct 2017 22:20:36 526 posts
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    DrStrangelove wrote:
    Am I the only one who thinks Burnham was also asking for a Darwin award by needlessly putting her life at risk like that?
    True, and she was probably being even more stupid given what had just happened.

    Also her hypothesis about pinky only being aggressive when threatened seemed a bit shaky given how it was aggressively attacking the barrier when no one was threatening it. And the fact it had relentlessly pursued her on the Glenn - what if it had recognised her as a threat from that earlier encounter?
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