Why WW2 Page 2

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  • MrSensible 3 Sep 2008 12:31:26 25,215 posts
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    It depends how you view these things then, I guess. I'm fine with it in games. Things like CoD have taught me a few things about the war that I didn't know before, to be perfectly honest. Sure it was entertaining but I didn't know about some of the battles. It also made me go and look some of them up in particular.
  • kalel 3 Sep 2008 12:31:36 88,419 posts
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    JuanKerr wrote:
    I agree with what you said, but I think the problem is that when younger kids, for example, start playing WWII games and completely lose sight of the fact that these events they are interacting in actually happened.

    Thatís pure conjecture though. You could equally argue itís a wonderful thing in that it makes them aware of events they otherwise would know nothing of.

    I think trivialise is the wrong word. The only game that came close to doing that was perhaps Wolfenstein, but as I say, I think the more recent WWII games are actually pretty grown up in their approach.
  • JuanKerr 3 Sep 2008 12:33:41 36,311 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    JuanKerr wrote:
    I agree with what you said, but I think the problem is that when younger kids, for example, start playing WWII games and completely lose sight of the fact that these events they are interacting in actually happened.

    Thatís pure conjecture though. You could equally argue itís a wonderful thing in that it makes them aware of events they otherwise would know nothing of.

    I think trivialise is the wrong word. The only game that came close to doing that was perhaps Wolfenstein, but as I say, I think the more recent WWII games are actually pretty grown up in their approach.

    Yeah, you're probably right actually - it is just conjecture and perhaps I am over-sensitive due to my grandad :)
  • Orange 3 Sep 2008 12:35:01 4,849 posts
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    What few vietnam games there have been haven't sold well iirc. Not surprising seeing as the US lost, while WWII they won practically single handed apparently.

    I would love to see a Vietnam game now with the latest foliage tech. One where you can play both as a vietcong stealthing around tunnels and such like, and one as a marine having to look out for traps and ambushes.
  • MrSensible 3 Sep 2008 12:37:26 25,215 posts
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    We don't see many FPS games where you're a policeman. Just a thought I had.
  • Quint2020 3 Sep 2008 12:38:39 3,484 posts
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    thefilthandthefury wrote:
    We don't see many FPS games where you're a policeman. Just a thought I had.

    Some sort of A.R.U. game or "SWAT" would be pretty cool, very underused when you think about it.
  • TechnoHippy 3 Sep 2008 12:38:57 14,719 posts
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    I tried pitching an idea where you played a peacekeeper, so some missions had to be completed using non-lethal force.

    My books, contests, reviews and author interviews on my blog

  • MrSensible 3 Sep 2008 12:40:42 25,215 posts
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    Techno Hippy wrote:
    I tried pitching an idea where you played a peacekeeper, so some missions had to be completed using non-lethal force.

    That'd be good! I'd enjoy that. It'd also be fun having to run through the streets, chasing down the 'perps' or whatever they're called :D

    So basically make an action-packed, FPS, version of Police Quest.
  • MrSensible 3 Sep 2008 12:41:15 25,215 posts
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    Quint2020 wrote:
    thefilthandthefury wrote:
    We don't see many FPS games where you're a policeman. Just a thought I had.

    Some sort of A.R.U. game or "SWAT" would be pretty cool, very underused when you think about it.

    They did the SWAT games on the PC, but other than those ones I think that's been it really. Bit odd it never kept going.
  • Quint2020 3 Sep 2008 12:42:20 3,484 posts
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    Wasn't SWAT for the PC more of a strategy game in the vein of Syndicate though?
  • TheSaint 3 Sep 2008 12:42:33 14,614 posts
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    thefilthandthefury wrote:
    Quint2020 wrote:
    thefilthandthefury wrote:
    We don't see many FPS games where you're a policeman. Just a thought I had.

    Some sort of A.R.U. game or "SWAT" would be pretty cool, very underused when you think about it.

    They did the SWAT games on the PC, but other than those ones I think that's been it really. Bit odd it never kept going.

    Rainbow 6 is kind of a SWAT game.
  • MrSensible 3 Sep 2008 12:47:05 25,215 posts
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    Quint2020 wrote:
    Wasn't SWAT for the PC more of a strategy game in the vein of Syndicate though?

    I thought they were FPS. Oh well I'm not sure, I never played them.

    I'd prefer to just be a normal policeman though (in America, of course) and make it like a TV cop show.
  • TheSaint 3 Sep 2008 12:48:17 14,614 posts
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    "Step out of the car please sir."
  • Deleted user 3 September 2008 12:50:12
    Quint2020 wrote:
    Wasn't SWAT for the PC more of a strategy game in the vein of Syndicate though?

    Only the second one. The first was an FMV adventure (and a hilarious one at that). The third and fourth were Rainbow Six-esque tactical FPSes.
  • Quint2020 3 Sep 2008 12:50:29 3,484 posts
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    Yeah, with car chases and stuff, that would be awesome!

    We should pitch this to someone! lol.
  • Doomspoon 3 Sep 2008 12:51:54 2,490 posts
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    WW I wouldn't lend itself to a particularly fun game. Stand in a trench occasionally firing a blind volley, randomly die from artillery bursts periodically, then just as the game is about to end charge forwards into enemy machine gun fire occasionally shooting a round off and kicking a football.

    Or you could extend it to a Battlefield style game, in which case the armour can move in and punch a hole in the line, then get encircled for an hour while the cavalry sit on their collective thumbs 'til they decide to follow the now useless advance.

    Vietnam has been done in three FPS games/franchise I can think of off hand, VietCong/Purple Haze, Battlefield Vietnam and Men of Valor. Also in two third person shooters, Conflict Vietnam and Shellshock Nam '67. None of them were especially good games, not that I've tried Men of Valor or Shellshock.

    It's hard to do Vietnam realistically too. You can have a string of urban battles fought in daylight against the NVA which the US can win with minimal loss followed by a series of night raids by the VC where they struggle. Oh hang on, we're in cliche territory. I guess something that will never make it into the games is the paranoia regarding civilians and VC involvement, I think it's acceptable that in other genres 'harmless' civilians can turn into the enemy (Resident Evil, Silent Hill, Mass Effect to name a few) but given the current political climate having that in a war based game isn't going to be a popular choice. Although, for a change they could make a Vietnam game based on the French involvement prior to America's, or even play as the Australians for a change. Oh wait, America won't like that because as far as they're concerned it was them alone fighting the North Vietnamese.

    It seems some are overlooking the fact that most modern squad tactics evolved from WW II. Maybe they could do a game based on the Spanish Civil war, that would be good to play as the Luftwaffe at least, but seriously how many would buy it? How many typical gamers know there was a Spanish Civil war, let alone when it was?

    I've played some good WW II games, favourite amongst them are the Brothers in Arms series. I know many have criticised the mechanics and the nature of the levels but I felt it was a refreshing and intelligent approach to both the subject matter and the genre. A dumb shooter will always be a dumb shooter, no matter what era it's set in.
  • MrSensible 3 Sep 2008 12:52:46 25,215 posts
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    TheSaint wrote:
    "Step out of the car please sir."

    :D

    Yeah and then the guy remembers he has cocaine in the glove box, so pulls a gun and all hell breaks loose!
  • Doomspoon 3 Sep 2008 12:56:30 2,490 posts
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    JuanKerr wrote:
    thefilthandthefury wrote:
    So, JuanKerr, are films about WW2 wrong? Genuine question.

    Well, depends on how they deal with the situation - if they are a genuine attempt at making people aware of what happened and serve a purpose, then fine. However, shit like Pearl Harbour can fuck off.

    Stalingrad and Tuntematon Sotilas (The Forgotten Soldier) were rather good I thought.
  • mcmonkeyplc 3 Sep 2008 13:02:47 39,467 posts
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    JuanKerr wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    JuanKerr wrote:

    It offends me to be honest.

    Iíd be interested to hear you rationalise why.

    I kind of know where youíre coming from, but I actually think the majority of these games handle the subject with a pretty decent degree of sensitivity, the CoD games in particular really make you more aware of the awful nature of war than you might have been if you had not played them. Recently games like CoD 4 even start to blur the lines between the goodie and the baddies, and challenge you to really ponder the current Middle East situation.

    Itís a step towards games Ďgrowing upí a bit, and I think itís mostly a good thing.

    I agree with what you said, but I think the problem is that when younger kids, for example, start playing WWII games and completely lose sight of the fact that these events they are interacting in actually happened.

    I was very close to my grandfather and saw what WWII did to him. He died a few years ago and I know that he wouldn't be happy with the 'commercialisation' of WWII, especially by the games industry.

    Kids that dont know what WW2 is simply need to be shot. It's in our education system. Everyone should know the levels of sacrifice that were made on all sides already.

    Both Games and Films treat the subject matter very carefully to avoid trivilastion of it. WW2 was the defining moment of the last century, ofcourse it's going to be used as subject matter for "entertainment".

    Most games also show graphically how much death was involved, CoD even kills your chrachter. I cant think of any game that has treated it without respect. Apart from maybe Wolfenstein, but thats not even set in the real world.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • Quint2020 3 Sep 2008 13:12:28 3,484 posts
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    thefilthandthefury wrote:
    TheSaint wrote:
    "Step out of the car please sir."

    :D

    Yeah and then the guy remembers he has cocaine in the glove box, so pulls a gun and all hell breaks loose!

    This game is so sold

    ................. wait a minute.........
  • MrSensible 3 Sep 2008 13:15:54 25,215 posts
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    Post deleted
  • glaeken 3 Sep 2008 13:30:32 11,221 posts
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    How about the Falklands? They seemed to have steered well clear of that since Harrier Attack. I want the chance to fight against poorly trained conscripts on a wind swept rock surrounded by sheep.

  • Doomspoon 3 Sep 2008 13:42:03 2,490 posts
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    mcmonkeyplc wrote:

    Both Games and Films treat the subject matter very carefully to avoid trivilastion of it...

    Most games also show graphically how much death was involved, CoD even kills your chrachter. I cant think of any game that has treated it without respect. Apart from maybe Wolfenstein, but thats not even set in the real world.

    But this is part of the problem, it's cartoon death. The more soldiers that CoD2 throws at you the more detached from reality it becomes. They're dumb robots that come in wave after wave from nowhere until you hit the scripted checkpoint. When your squad get shot they magically respawn behind you moments later. Yes that 'twist' in CoD 4 was genuinely sickening, that was a good move but other than that using CoD games is a very poor example and further highlights JuanKerr's point.

    Throughout CoD 2 you get to be a hero, it's in action film territory. Compare this to Brothers in Arms as an example, yes your squad plays a pivotal role in events, based on real accounts and actions but for the most part you're trying to survive getting from A to B. The firefights are typically not massive with wave after wave of robots. Again BiA has been criticised by gamers for being a bit bland, I feel that it's communicating an intelligent approach. The narrative is at least trying to communicate some real feelings, genuine fear and loss.
  • Articulate-Troll 3 Sep 2008 13:43:42 3,101 posts
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    The Korean war is another interesting possibility - you have the clearly defined "bad guys" (commies), good guys (everyone else) and proper pitched battles against an easy to predict foe. The game would also get interesting about half way through when the vast hordes of the Chinese show up, suddenly making the game a lot more challenging.

    Anyone who's seen the Korean movie "Brotherhood" knows this would be a good idea.
  • Red-Moose 3 Sep 2008 13:45:11 5,346 posts
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    ToonMonkey wrote:
    I vaguely remember a Vietnam game on the Amiga with a mixture of first person and third person bits. Always got chinned in the sniper section. Anyone else remember it?

    Was that Lost Patrol by any chance? Not a bad game, but not great either.

    No chance of further exploration into Vietnam as it made the US look like wankers.

    however, that in itself is not the only reason because Desert Combat and BF2 were/are fantastic and popular. It must be something else.

    1. Make sure america doesn't look retarded
    2. Make sure the enemy can gain no sympathy from the public (Nazis, Muslims)
    3. ?????
    4. Profit!

    There have been plenty of cold war type games (Silent Hunter, eh....Hunt for Red october....and./.....any more?)? Does Tom Clancy make games? or is it just those shit shooters which obey Rules 1 and 2.

    As for the comment saying kids these days should know WW2 and what happened, why don't I recall seeing

    a) the Company of Heroes or MoH mission to blow the shit out of 125000 children and other civilians in Dresden when the intelligence report says it's a civilian refuge? Expansion pack maybe?

    Or the other classic, and hilariously overlooked "torch 80000 people with nuclear weapons" mod that can be added to Battlefield 1942. Oh yes, maybe it's because it was in 1942 that it's not in it.

    Not least of which, I don't think there was a "call in a Napalm strike to disfugure and burn villagers" in Battelfield Vietnam?

    But I may be wrong. Maybe most WW2 aren't just pushing the same old pro-Anglo Saxon agenda. We see plenty of mainstream press being very pro EU in both the US and UK.

    /controversy
  • MrSensible 3 Sep 2008 13:46:19 25,215 posts
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    @Articulate-Troll

    Ah yes, good idea! Brotherhood is a brilliant movie actually, I really need to buy that.
  • WrongShui 3 Sep 2008 13:51:47 6,620 posts
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    fWhile my squad use covering fire from the 30th perfectly placed overturned truck/tractor/cow I shall flank your BiA love and kill it.

    It's a puzzle game, not an fps.
  • J.C 3 Sep 2008 13:53:34 1,271 posts
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    The american civil war? that could be interesting. granted the weapons would be old smith and wesson rifles and pistols etc. but their were swords gatling guns cannons and all sorts. could be awesome!
  • MrSensible 3 Sep 2008 13:54:23 25,215 posts
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    J.C wrote:
    The american civil war? that could be interesting. granted the weapons would be old smith and wesson rifles and pistols etc. but their were swords gatling guns cannons and all sorts. could be awesome!

    You'd just end up getting in a line and firing, then kneeling to reload while the people behind fire.

    That's all they seem to do in films anyway! :D
  • J.C 3 Sep 2008 13:55:48 1,271 posts
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    thefilthandthefury wrote:
    J.C wrote:
    The american civil war? that could be interesting. granted the weapons would be old smith and wesson rifles and pistols etc. but their were swords gatling guns cannons and all sorts. could be awesome!

    You'd just end up getting in a line and firing, then kneeling to reload while the people behind fire.

    That's all they seem to do in films anyway! :D
    Oh. your right! lol
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