Help please, grammar Nazis. Page 12

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  • Mr-Brett 20 Jun 2012 00:09:43 12,799 posts
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    ...It's unclear if this is based off the Wii release of Okami or the original PS2 game.
    From here: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/06/19/okami-hd-coming-to-ps3-in-japan.aspx

    Is "off" correct in that sentence? It seems wrong to me but I'm not sure.

    Level 37 Social Justice Warrior

  • Whizzo 20 Jun 2012 00:15:23 43,124 posts
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    "Based on" is what I would use.

    Edited by Whizzo at 00:18:24 20-06-2012

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  • RedSparrows 20 Jun 2012 00:23:57 22,722 posts
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    'Based on', yeah. 'Based off' is too clumsy in my head.
  • Dr.Haggard 20 Jun 2012 00:46:00 4,207 posts
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    Although either is infinitely better than 'based off of'.

    /shudder
  • X201 20 Jun 2012 06:39:39 15,476 posts
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    For some reason, the Merkins say "based off" instead of "based on", but they also use words like "Burglarized" so they are obviously wrong
  • DodgyPast 20 Jun 2012 06:56:39 8,468 posts
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    Whizzo wrote:
    "Based on" is what I would use.
    Well since it means your building something on top of something on also makes more sense.
  • FWB 20 Jun 2012 09:23:17 44,583 posts
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    Some Brits say "base off" too. It's more spoken than written, but I'd say perfectly valid. The question is, do you understand what it means? If so, then it is fine.

    But I would say "base on".
  • FuzzyDuck 20 Jun 2012 13:02:01 4,133 posts
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    DodgyPast wrote:
    Whizzo wrote:
    "Based on" is what I would use.
    Well since it means your building something on top of something on also makes more sense.
    Exactly, 'based off' makes absolutely no sense in my head and it sounds pretty clumsy to boot.
  • FWB 20 Jun 2012 13:04:04 44,583 posts
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    Since when have phrasal verbs been based on "sense"? That's what makes the majority of them so hard for learners. You cannot dissect the meaning.
  • DodgyPast 20 Jun 2012 15:54:10 8,468 posts
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    FWB wrote:
    Since when have phrasal verbs been based on "sense"? That's what makes the majority of them so hard for learners. You cannot dissect the meaning.
    There are limited trends and I'd say more than 70% do have some kind of sense, e.g. on for positive and off for negative.

    The being understood thing is nice fluffy efl ology, but in reality if you're dealing with educated native speakers many will make negative assumptions about intelligence based on language.

    One reason I'd strongly advise learning British English over American.

    Edited by DodgyPast at 15:58:32 20-06-2012
  • mal 20 Jun 2012 16:21:03 22,554 posts
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    I've always assumed the 'off' in 'based off' is used in the sense of 'from', as in 'comes from'. But I'm probaby making up a false etymology there. I do quite often say 'based off of' but only because of the rhythm, and the fact it winds up some people.

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • FWB 20 Jun 2012 17:13:16 44,583 posts
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    DodgyPast wrote:
    There are limited trends and I'd say more than 70% do have some kind of sense, e.g. on for positive and off for negative.
    I wouldn't. And assuming so is dangerous.

    The being understood thing is nice fluffy efl ology, but in reality if you're dealing with educated native speakers many will make negative assumptions about intelligence based on language.
    Good thing "native speakers" are not the be all and end all of English. Where do you teach, DP? David Crystal was lecturing in London last week. Worth reading his stuff on the future of Englishes. British native speakers are seldom going to be your main source/target of English. They're not even that in London - written form excluded.

    Am DELTAing too, DP. :) If there is one thing I have taken away from it is that I was previously overly concerned with accuracy at times, which on a spoken level at least is a waste of time. Communication IS the ultimate role of English as a lingua franca.

    Edited by FWB at 17:24:54 20-06-2012
  • FWB 20 Jun 2012 17:18:33 44,583 posts
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    mal wrote:
    I've always assumed the 'off' in 'based off' is used in the sense of 'from', as in 'comes from'. But I'm probaby making up a false etymology there. I do quite often say 'based off of' but only because of the rhythm, and the fact it winds up some people.
    Jim and Jane got off.
    He put off his work.
    Fuck off!

    Doesn't really work making assumptions about the preposition. Accept the collocation as a chunk of language and that it as a specific meaning. No point in analysing it.

    Edited by FWB at 17:22:53 20-06-2012
  • Mr-Brett 20 Jun 2012 17:24:21 12,799 posts
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    Cheers guys, I thought it was a bit odd.

    Level 37 Social Justice Warrior

  • DodgyPast 20 Jun 2012 17:43:15 8,468 posts
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    FWB wrote:
    Am DELTAing too, DP. :) If there is one thing I have taken away from it is that I was previously overly concerned with accuracy at times, which on a spoken level at least is a waste of time. Communication IS the ultimate role of English as a lingua franca.
    Doing the distance Delta, working for the British Council in Bangkok.

    I do agree that many students may never use their English professionally with a native speaker, but since quite a few of mine are planning on doing Masters in the UK it's particularly relevant for them.

    I'm no Nazi in the classroom, in fact the opposite... but I do make sure students are aware of the implications for different contexts. After all that's more information to plug into schemata that can benefit recall.
  • FWB 20 Jun 2012 18:00:07 44,583 posts
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    Well then for those masters students the written academic language is relevant, but for the majority it isn't. It's all about teaching them probable language, not possible. If they're hardly going to hear it then no need. Hence I'd never suggest learning "British English" (and there are numerous forms of that) over others. It's really about what each student is going to do.

    Going back to the OP's comment... if "base off" is being used - enough that a native speaker is asking about it - then I'd say it's not just a valid form, but that students can freely use it, innit. ;)

    Out of interest? How do your obs work in the distance DELTA? You have to come back to the UK for the Cambridge observation? My DOS told me she never had any abroad, but that was a few years back.

    Used to teach loads of Thai's heading to post-grads. But thanks to the Tory government they've dried up. :(

    Currently working on my LSA2... writing. Fun, fun, fun. BTW, when did you start EFL? I recall you mentioning it a year or so ago, but I know you've been on here a while. Were you already doing it when I went to Japan?

    Edited by FWB at 18:03:19 20-06-2012
  • Whizzo 20 Jun 2012 18:05:57 43,124 posts
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    Name a movie that had "Based off a true story" during the title sequence, rather than "based on".

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  • FWB 20 Jun 2012 18:09:07 44,583 posts
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    Collocation. Doesn't mean the phrasal verb isn't valid.
  • DodgyPast 20 Jun 2012 18:35:58 8,468 posts
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    Being the BC quite a few staff are tutors, so only need someone from Cambridge over for the final LSA. Doing mine over 2 years, done the exam course already though taking the exam in December and starting Module 3 in September. Then Module 2 starts March next year.

    Not sure who started first, coming up to ten years since I started. Though I did break mine up with a PGCE, but still doing EFL in the summer holidays.

    Has meant I'm one of the only teachers who loves teaching teens.

    How's the UK for teaching? Salaries looked rather crap when I looked. After my Delta should be on over 18k which very comfortable given the cost of living. Plus BC pay 70% of the Delta.

    Edited by DodgyPast at 18:39:20 20-06-2012
  • FWB 20 Jun 2012 18:50:10 44,583 posts
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    Guess you've been longer. I trained in Oct 2002.

    I came back a few years ago. Very lucky to have a relatively sturdy job. Student numbers have dropped across the country - government policies - and a whole bunch of people retrained during the recession to become EFL teachers, so there's a surplus of (inexperienced) teachers.

    EFL teacher wages are generally poor the world over to live in a place like London. I'm on 24k pre-DELTA, tho post that will jump. In fact for IELTS it will double to close to £40/hr. Unis/colleges pay well (having my DELTA paid for). I hated teaching when I left Japan. I disliked the mono-culture in the classroom, the lack of practice for students outside the classroom and thus motivation for them to learn. My attitude completely changed here, since they need/use the language on a daily basis and the classes are a right mix. Meet/make friends with people from all over the world on a daily basis. Best part of the job. That said, I still want to live abroad again. I'm doing the DELTA cos a) it is paid for and b) I want to mix things up... teacher training and writing/publishing. Writing has lots of money in it. Still want to teach though.

    Fuck teens. Done my stint teaching them. Particularly European/S.American ones. But I also guess my experience with them in the UK would be somewhat different from yours. Mine would come for a week at a time, during their holidays, so just faffed about. Much prefer the immigrants/refugees and long term students. That said, the teens abroad weren't much better. Can't get angry, I know what I was like as a teenager.

    Edited by FWB at 19:08:51 20-06-2012
  • DodgyPast 20 Jun 2012 19:11:24 8,468 posts
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    My CELTA was August 2003 IIRC, so you just beat me.

    Lack of practice outside of the classroom is annoying but English really is a ticket to greater salaries in Thailand, plus due to the limited creation of media in their own language they can't help but be exposed to some English.

    I'd guess the BC being significantly more expensive than the other schools filters my students.

    Something like 70% of my EFL teaching has been teens. From Thai high school, EFL in Thailand and EFL for Devon summer courses. Plus a secondary PGCE... the experience pays off. Yeah they arrive not wanting to be there, but you build a rapport with them and you'll be surprised how much work they'll do just because they like you. As an aside, try clips from the best of trigger happy TV. I can fit them to a ridiculous number of language points and it really helps the students realise that at the least you have a sense of humour.

    Teens also seem to be the least culturally inhibited, the same lesson plans work with both Asian and European teens.

    Edited by DodgyPast at 19:13:34 20-06-2012
  • FWB 20 Jun 2012 19:16:59 44,583 posts
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    True, true.

    I teach predominately 20-25 year olds, so they're generally pretty liberal and open-minded. Plus they can go drinking. :) Salary aside, I really do enjoy the job. You can make of it want you want and the social side is fantastic. I get paid to go to the pub. \o/
  • DodgyPast 20 Jun 2012 19:30:31 8,468 posts
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    That's a nice bonus. Had that one summer in the UK, when I had a few adult classes. Became quite dangerous after coaxing a Russian doctor past his shyness.

    I sometimes meet up with the students I used to teach when they were at high school, quite nice since a bunch of them ended up using their English to go to good Universities and now have good jobs.

    Sadly the adult men tend to be a bit intimidated by foreign men and the women lose interest once they know you have a girlfriend.

    Edited by DodgyPast at 19:35:10 20-06-2012
  • lucky_jim 20 Jun 2012 20:12:28 5,297 posts
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    I'm just coming to the end of my first term teaching English in Prague. My preparation takes me ages as I'm such a noob, but I'm hoping it'll be a little easier once Iím able to look back at how I taught something last time. At the moment, I'm teaching everything for the first time, as the only experience I had before this job was my CELTA training in London.

    I enjoy it enough that I don't mind the hard work too much, which is a nice change after hating every minute of the final two years of my decade-long previous career. I mean, I get to live in Prague, which is full of Czech girls and awash with Czech beer! If that's not worth a bit of hard work, I don't know what is.

    We should have a thread or group for EFL teachers. Or is this effectively already one?
  • FWB 20 Jun 2012 20:18:39 44,583 posts
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    A few years down the road you'll be able to prep in a matter of minutes, if needs be. In fact it's one of the tasks my DOS gives teachers she interviews, since you might be asked to pick up a class with a minutes notice. Never be afraid to ask other teachers for help. Anyone worth their salt will be more than willing to give you a hand. I find that 90& of EFL teachers are extremely helpful and chilled out people. The profession draws those kinds of people. Has to. The money doesn't.

    It's all about experience. You'll build up a repertoire and just keep on expanding it. Plus you'll be able to look any kind of material and make a lesson out of it in a split second. Plus there's always Dogme. :)

    Edited by FWB at 20:20:05 20-06-2012
  • DodgyPast 20 Jun 2012 20:44:01 8,468 posts
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    Most of my time tends to be either cutting stuff up for activities or preparing IWB flipcharts to minimise the amount of faffing about I do in class.

    Today I planned 19 hours of teaching in less than 5 hours. Though a couple of the repeated classes helps.

    Think there was an EFL group but it died.

    As FWB says, ask... ask... ask

    You'll pick up activities off other teachers. Personal favourites include pictionary, backs to the board, running dictations, gambling for answers to multiple choice questions, getting students to make both true and false statements so their partner has to guess and verbal tennis.

    BTW, good you did the CELTA, not having some shitty qualification will stand you in good stead, there are better teachers than me earning less because they did their CELTA later in their career.

    Edited by DodgyPast at 20:47:08 20-06-2012
  • lucky_jim 20 Jun 2012 20:50:57 5,297 posts
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    The money's surprisingly decent out here. Ok, I've had to cut back my spending on games and gadgets, but I was mental anyway (I impulse-bought a 3DS at launch, for example). I don't feel I'm missing out on anything important, although I might change my mind when the new consoles come out.

    To put it in that most useful of international currencies, each 90-minute lesson earns me enough to buy 13 pints. The cost of living here is pretty low and demand for English teachers is pretty high, it's a good combo. I've had enough people pleading for lessons to know I could earn a lot more freelancing, I'm just nowhere near experienced enough for that yet.
  • FWB 20 Jun 2012 20:56:20 44,583 posts
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    TBH I think the Trinity qualification is just as good. But of course there is still some prestige attached to the CELTA. I know it got me extra cash when I was abroad.

    As a note Trinity has just picked up the exam contracts for the Indian and Chinese government. They're cheaper, quicker (as in results given), more specialised (you can just go for a speaking cert if you want) and probably just as good. Just need to build a bit more of a rep. Cambridge are in trouble.

    Also, don't know how much you know about accreditation in the UK, but the ISI are inspecting schools from 2012. Still got the BC, but they're eventually going to disappear (in terms of accreditation) and hand everything over to the ISI.
  • DodgyPast 20 Jun 2012 21:05:30 8,468 posts
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    Interesting way of thinking 1 hours overtime covers 17 large bottles of beer, or 8 pints at happy hour... but Thailand isn't particularly cheap for drinking.

    I do get a 55 square meter condo plus bills, cable and internet for less than a third of my salary... and food's ridiculously cheap. A superb island is 5 hours away as well.

    OTOH flights are insanely expensive and 4 months of my savings are required to cover a return flight. Missing steam because I'm waiting to qualify for a local credit card... But can use PSN and buy games locally.

    Trinity's pretty much the same, maybe better because it's more flexible. Was referring to the other weird and wonderful stuff people end up with.

    BC accreditation in the UK was a joke, the places I taught at had it but no one ever seemed to get around to inspecting us. Probably a good thing someone more specialised is taking over.

    Edited by DodgyPast at 21:10:14 20-06-2012
  • FWB 20 Jun 2012 21:07:43 44,583 posts
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    I didn't have a computer/console when I was abroad. Didn't need or miss it.
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