American football: ask a coach! Page 5

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  • Deleted user 28 April 2010 09:42:06
    ilmaestro wrote:
    Snakehips76 wrote:
    'Soccer' was a bad example. Try rugby. A real game. Knocks spots of American Football and 'soccer' for that matter as pure entertainment and ball in play per minute
    Oh god, you really haven't been watching England recently, have you? :lol:

    Nope, I'm Welsh and live in Leicester, so I'm spoilt for choice when it comes to decent rugby. England are shockingly dull to watch
  • StarchildHypocrethes 28 Apr 2010 09:45:53 25,425 posts
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    Dal will know far more about this, but I think you have to have one hand on the ground if you are standing at the line of scrimmage. I you move back from this, you then have to stand up.
  • Ivefoundgod 28 Apr 2010 10:13:36 560 posts
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    I think it's fair to say that any sport can produce mind-numbingly boring games, and not just the lesser teams in a sport. I recall many occasions when United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool have played out snoozefests, don't think it's fair to say American Football produces any more boring(something entirely down to personal preference anyway) games.

    I don't know all that much about American Football and sometimes don't understand all the rules but I enjoy watching nonetheless. I've been amazed at the standard produced in the last 5 or 6 Super Bowls I've seen, probably because in general, finals in football are much less exciting and a lot less entertaining.

    One last thing, I supported the Saints last year but still haven't officially picked a team to follow, I was thinking of carrying on with the Saints but don't want to look like I hopped on the bandwagon. Any suggestions for good teams to follow? They don't have to be really good, just fun to watch.
  • ilmaestro 28 Apr 2010 16:08:24 32,406 posts
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    Snakehips76 wrote:
    ilmaestro wrote:
    Snakehips76 wrote:
    'Soccer' was a bad example. Try rugby. A real game. Knocks spots of American Football and 'soccer' for that matter as pure entertainment and ball in play per minute
    Oh god, you really haven't been watching England recently, have you? :lol:

    Nope, I'm Welsh and live in Leicester, so I'm spoilt for choice when it comes to decent rugby. England are shockingly dull to watch
    Let's not pretend Leicester have always been a bastion of flowing attacking play, either, though.

    4235

  • FWB 28 Apr 2010 16:10:20 43,848 posts
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    I didn't read the rest of the thread, but did OP answer why American Handegg is so shit?
  • ronuds 28 Apr 2010 16:22:05 21,788 posts
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    StarchildHypocrethes wrote:
    Dal will know far more about this, but I think you have to have one hand on the ground if you are standing at the line of scrimmage. I you move back from this, you then have to stand up.

    I don't believe a defensive player ever HAS to have his hand on the ground. Not sure if you can take that stance if you're off the line.

    Defensive players can do just about whatever they want prior to the snap. Some teams will send them meandering about so the QB can't read what they're planning.
  • StarchildHypocrethes 28 Apr 2010 16:32:39 25,425 posts
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    I'm fairly sure you have to be in a crouched stance with your hand on the ground if you are positioned on the line of scrimmage, otherwise it's a penalty.

    I think you need at least 3 down linemen, but could be wrong.
  • Salaman 28 Apr 2010 16:39:28 18,870 posts
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    ronuds wrote:
    StarchildHypocrethes wrote:
    Dal will know far more about this, but I think you have to have one hand on the ground if you are standing at the line of scrimmage. I you move back from this, you then have to stand up.

    I don't believe a defensive player ever HAS to have his hand on the ground. Not sure if you can take that stance if you're off the line.

    Defensive players can do just about whatever they want prior to the snap. Some teams will send them meandering about so the QB can't read what they're planning.

    Yeah but those aren't on the front line. And isn't it usually the offense that has people wandering about to try and stop the defense from reading their play?
    And then defensive players need to move to match the changes on the offense side?

    Actually ... that's something I often wondered. You see a often see a guy who's on the far right of the offensive line and then starts jogging towards the quarterback parallel to the line shortly before the snap.
    What's up with him.
    Is he just a receiver type guy hoping to cut through some little lane in the defense or something?
  • ronuds 28 Apr 2010 16:40:48 21,788 posts
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    I'm pretty positive you are not required to have anyone on the line if you're on defense. Offense is a different story.

    As for the crouching - not sure, but I don't believe there are any rules for it on the defensive side. Players, like the nose tackle, crouch because it makes them more effective, but I don't believe they're required to.
  • ronuds 28 Apr 2010 16:44:14 21,788 posts
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    Salaman wrote:
    ronuds wrote:
    StarchildHypocrethes wrote:
    Dal will know far more about this, but I think you have to have one hand on the ground if you are standing at the line of scrimmage. I you move back from this, you then have to stand up.

    I don't believe a defensive player ever HAS to have his hand on the ground. Not sure if you can take that stance if you're off the line.

    Defensive players can do just about whatever they want prior to the snap. Some teams will send them meandering about so the QB can't read what they're planning.

    Yeah but those aren't on the front line. And isn't it usually the offense that has people wandering about to try and stop the defense from reading their play?
    And then defensive players need to move to match the changes on the offense side?

    Actually ... that's something I often wondered. You see a often see a guy who's on the far right of the offensive line and then starts jogging towards the quarterback parallel to the line shortly before the snap.
    What's up with him.
    Is he just a receiver type guy hoping to cut through some little lane in the defense or something?

    The only offensive players allowed to mov are those which you describe - the "in motion" guys. This will be a RB, WR or TE. The offensive lineman aren't even allowed to flinch after they're set or it's a penalty. Defensive players will often move about to try and disguise the type of defense they're playing. They have no rules dictating where they need to be before a play begins, whereas the offense has a number of rules about who has to be lined up where.

    Sending someone in motion could be done for a couple of reasons...

    1) Possible to read a defense: If someone follows that receiver -- a cornerback, safety or linebacker -- the defense is more than likely playing man-to-man rather than a zone. of course, defenses can also fool the QB by sending someone with that guy and then playing a zone or other blitzing.
    2) Fool the defense by lining up in a passing formation, then bring a receiver or TE in formation to the line to help with blocking for the RB.
  • StarchildHypocrethes 28 Apr 2010 16:44:59 25,425 posts
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    Salaman wrote:
    Actually ... that's something I often wondered. You see a often see a guy who's on the far right of the offensive line and then starts jogging towards the quarterback parallel to the line shortly before the snap.
    What's up with him.
    Is he just a receiver type guy hoping to cut through some little lane in the defense or something?
    Pretty much, yeah. He'll have either been sent in motion as part of the original play, or the QB will have called an audible change to a back-up play if he's seen something he doesn't like, so the receiver will move to the back-up plays position.

    It's all part of trying to outwit the defense.
  • DAL9000 28 Apr 2010 22:58:20 72 posts
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    ronuds wrote:
    I'm pretty positive you are not required to have anyone on the line if you're on defense. Offense is a different story.

    Ronuds is right! The offense is required to have seven players on the line of scrimmage. Five of them are linemen, who aren't allowed to receive a pass-- that's the "can do X/can't do X" from the original question, incidentally. You misremembered a LITTLE, boo -- your informant was talking about offense, not defense -- but you grasped and retained the essentials.

    The defense can put its 11 players anywhere it pleases, as long as they're on the defensive side of the line of scrimmage.

    ronuds wrote:

    As for the crouching - not sure, but I don't believe there are any rules for it on the defensive side. Players, like the nose tackle, crouch because it makes them more effective, but I don't believe they're required to.

    Ronuds is right again! Not only can defensive players stand anyWHERE they'd like, they can stand in any WAY they'd like.

    In fact, even offensive linemen don't HAVE to have a hand on the ground. There's something called a two-point stance, meaning that only two points of your body are in contact with the ground. Offensive linemen -- in the NFL, usually the left and right tackles -- will sometimes use a two-point stance on passing downs, because it's MUCH easier to get into a good pass-protection stance if you're already standing up.

    So when it's 3rd and 4 and you see the left tackle standing up, you can look like a genius by saying, "They're gonna pass here." The more you know!

    P.S. Tomorrow, unless there are any new questions, we'll discuss WHY ronuds is so right when he says: "Players, like the nose tackle, crouch because it makes them more effective." Physics geeks rejoice, for you've already guessed the answer! Feel free to post it ahead of time and steal my thunder.
  • DAL9000 28 Apr 2010 23:30:53 72 posts
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    Salaman wrote:


    Actually ... that's something I often wondered. You see a often see a guy who's on the far right of the offensive line and then starts jogging towards the quarterback parallel to the line shortly before the snap.
    What's up with him.
    Is he just a receiver type guy hoping to cut through some little lane in the defense or something?

    SMART MAN. That's exactly what he is. That particular kind of motion is called "jet" motion, and it's a way for an offense to take advantage of the laws of physics to make defenses /sick to their stomachs/.

    Let me explain! Say you line up in this formation:



    WR...........T.G.C.G.T..........WR
    .....................QB............B....WR
    .....................RB....................

    And you send the B guy in motion, directly behind the line of scrimmage. He's going from right to left.

    Now, you snap the ball before he reaches the quarterback, and the QB hands off to the motion man-- who's /already got a running start/.

    He's going to hit the end of the line of scrimmage VERY QUICKLY, so fast that defenders on the right side of the formation (from the offense's point of view) have no chance of catching him. Not anywhere near the line of scrimmage, anyway.

    We call this "jet sweep," and it's very, VERY hard to defend against. I love jet sweep. It makes me happy in my inside-parts, where gladness grows.
  • DAL9000 28 Apr 2010 23:38:50 72 posts
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    As an addendum: one of the best reasons to send a guy in motion is that it screws with the defense's rules.

    Because there are so many offenses that opponents COULD run, defensive schemes tend to teach players a limited number of "if-then" rules, rather than "OK, here's what we do in every conceivable case that we could face." This is a necessary shortcut but it's one you can exploit with proper use of motion.

    This is but a TINY PORTION of the reason why defensive coaches drink and swear so much. :D
  • ilmaestro 29 Apr 2010 00:05:43 32,406 posts
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    How has your coaching been going btw, DAL?

    4235

  • Zomoniac 29 Apr 2010 08:32:51 7,802 posts
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    DAL9000 wrote:
    NATURE OF GAMEPLAY
    Series of discrete tactical events X------------Y---- Completely free-flowing & improvised

    X is our football, Y is yours.


    I'm guessing you've never seen a Mourinho team play? :)
  • StarchildHypocrethes 29 Apr 2010 09:06:13 25,425 posts
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    DAMN IT I WAS WRONG.

    *mumble*Well done ronuds*mumble*

    /kicks cat
  • Salaman 29 Apr 2010 14:35:31 18,870 posts
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    DAL was in rehab for 2 years. He's just gotten out and is trying to find a new coaching position currently.
    ;-)

    I'm glad to see this bumped though. Very interesting to learn a bit more of the intricacies of the game.

    Wholly unrelated to any of the discussion going on but I'll bore you with it anyway.
    With the superbowl coming up this year I doubted between staying up to watch and just recording it. I set the digicorder anyway and then around 1or 1:30am decided to go to bed.
    I avoided all news/sports websites the next day so I wouldn't spoiler the result for myself.
    Got home .... somehow it didn't record.
    :-(

    Then 4 weeks later we're in a pub quiz and in the round of sports questions they ask who won this years superbowl. Everyone expected me to know.
    As I hadn't seen it really I had to guess. St Louis, although also sounding somewhat French was wrong.
    >:-(

  • DAL9000 30 Apr 2010 23:42:08 72 posts
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    ilmaestro wrote:
    How has your coaching been going btw, DAL?

    Pretty well! I've worked mostly with linemen and linebackers, under two different head coaches-- I've learned a lot, I still have more to learn, aaaaand I have GOT to stop taking the bait when kids ask me personal questions. =( Oh man. The stories I could tell.
  • monkehhh 30 Apr 2010 23:49:01 3,269 posts
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    What are the options for actually watching American Football in the UK? I tend to just download the Superbowl in HD every year and that's about it.
  • ilmaestro 1 May 2010 00:07:43 32,406 posts
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    Coverage actually went down a lot last year, but Sky Sports and Channel 5 still showed a good selection of matches between them. Not sure what's happening this year, but you can always faff about with streams if the worst comes to the worst.

    4235

  • DAL9000 1 May 2010 00:10:29 72 posts
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    So the other day I said I'd talk about /why/ the fat guys crouch down the way they do before a play. The reason is leverage: you want to keep your body low, low, LOW at the moment of contact, and explode upwards as you try to move the other guy off the ball.

    You always wanna block from low to high, and then explode into contact. Starting with a hand on the ground really helps to keep you low. There's a ton of detail surrounding how you get from "hand on ground" to "making a block," but I'll refrain from sharing it for now -- today's my birthday AND my payday, and it's just about time to hit the town!
  • Salaman 1 May 2010 00:14:08 18,870 posts
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    Excellent combination! Go paint it red!
  • DAL9000 2 Aug 2011 14:25:56 72 posts
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    Clearly if it's been a year-plus since anybody posted here, that means that interest in the thread is SUPER-vibrant!

    But what the heck, I've got a bit of time today. If anyone has questions about American football, now's the time to ask!
  • KingOfSpain 2 Aug 2011 14:32:57 5,187 posts
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    Ok, easy question for you.

    Is there a website that you'd recommend for a American football fan who has been trying to get into the sport for the past 2 or 3 years but still only has a basic understanding of the game?

    I don't need help with the rules but I would like somewhere I can catch up with all of the news.

    EDIT - Go Steelers!!
  • DAL9000 2 Aug 2011 14:50:50 72 posts
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    Now that's an interesting one. Websites generally don't post basic overviews of what's happened in the NFL in the past couple of years. What kind of news are you looking for-- just the records of teams and player statistics? I'd say Football Reference is your best bet for that.

    If it's broader trends you're looking for, here's a short summary:
    * There was labor unrest this past summer, but all is well now.
    * The league continues to trend towards passing-heavy offenses.
    * Passing defense is correspondingly important -- cornerbacks are getting HUGE money in free agency this year.
  • President_Weasel 2 Aug 2011 15:13:32 8,977 posts
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    which leads me to the question: what is a cornerback? I suspect it is a defensive player who specialises in making passing difficult for the opposition
  • DAL9000 2 Aug 2011 15:22:28 72 posts
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    Bingo! The cornerback's job is to line up opposite a wide receiver and, depending on the play call, either shadow the receiver or defend a particular area of the field.

    The position requires extreme athleticism -- cornerbacks need to have straight-line speed AND be able to change directions fluidly. A cornerback will routinely be called upon to backpedal for several yards, then plant his feet, change direction, and explode up to make a tackle, all in less than 3 seconds.

    The position is also very technically demanding; one small mistake in technique can easily cost your team a touchdown. Or a game.
  • DAL9000 2 Aug 2011 16:10:19 72 posts
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    By the way, people sometimes ask if American football players could do well in professional soccer, or vice versa. One wide receiver in the NFL gave it a shot during the recent lockout. He was released at the end of his tryout -- he had speed and athleticism, and a decent first touch, but couldn't cross the ball to save his life. Which is a problem when you're a winger.

    So what about the converse? To my knowledge, it's never been tried. I could see using a soccer player as a smaller running back -- someone who makes his living with speed out in the open field. But I think it'd take at least a year in an NFL weight room before I'd trust a soccer player to not get killed; NFL players are just ridiculously strong.

    Note that soccer players do occasionally find their way over here as kickers, but pfft. Who cares about kickers? (Likewise, I suspect a lot of NFL players could be very good goalies. But, pfft. Goalies.)
  • ilmaestro 3 Aug 2011 02:20:18 32,406 posts
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    KingOfSpain wrote:
    Ok, easy question for you.

    Is there a website that you'd recommend for a American football fan who has been trying to get into the sport for the past 2 or 3 years but still only has a basic understanding of the game?

    I don't need help with the rules but I would like somewhere I can catch up with all of the news.

    EDIT - Go Steelers!!
    Also most fun "blog-type" site to read is coldhardfootballfacts.com.

    4235

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