Gary McKinnon not being extradited to US

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  • IronGiant 31 Jul 2008 17:05:02 5,017 posts
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    So looks like he'll finally be extradited to the US to stand trial for hacking into their military and nasa systems.

    Personally i think he should go and serve his time, not the 60+ years some stateside have suggested but he should take some punishment. Anyone with a scrap of common sense or intelligence would know to stay clear of US security especially after 9/11 and the paranoia over terrorism. Apparently his defence is that he was looking for evidence of UFOs which i think is rubbish, i reckon he took on the challenge of hacking the toughest systems out there and did it too well. Unfortunately for him he isn't the hero like in Wargames!
  • Von-Doll 31 Jul 2008 17:07:01 2,214 posts
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    IronGiant wrote:
    Unfortunately for him he isn't the hero like in Wargames!

    First thing I thought when the story about his exploits broke: someone's seen too many movies.
  • moggsy 31 Jul 2008 17:09:12 3,859 posts
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    I don't think the systems were all that secure, and he wants to serve his time where the crimes were committed i.e. in the UK.
  • MetalDog 31 Jul 2008 17:16:59 24,035 posts
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    A) He still has the European Court of Human Rights to appeal to

    B) sixty years and one arsehole talking about the death penalty is more than a little excessive for a nerd who wandered into an appallingly unprotected military network (toughest systems out there my arse).

    C) The extradition treaty between the USA and Britain is a fucking joke

    D) It's supposed to be illegal to extradite people to regimes that allow torture - this should apply to both the USA and Britain until they clean up their acts. Flying people into torture-ok countries shouldn't be a loophole.
  • Khanivor 31 Jul 2008 17:20:09 42,763 posts
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    He's admitted he did wrong. Why doesn't he comply with the US authorities and take his sentence of 3-4 years and have it done with?

    MD - if you walk into a shop and the till is open and no one around does that make it any less of a crime to steal?
  • MetalDog 31 Jul 2008 17:23:24 24,035 posts
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    He tried to comply with a deal and asked them to put it in writing. They refused to put it in writing. Would you trust them to stick to a verbal deal?

    I agree he should be punished - but a life sentence in the states is revoltingly unjust for the crime.
  • IronGiant 31 Jul 2008 17:28:19 5,017 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    A) He still has the European Court of Human Rights to appeal to.

    Hopefully he will lose, plead guilty and do 2-3 years. End of story.

    MetalDog wrote:B) sixty years and one arsehole talking about the death penalty is more than a little excessive for a nerd who wandered into an appallingly unprotected military network (toughest systems out there my arse).

    Agreed thats ridiculously over the top but so was his stupidity for attempting this in the first place. Obviously not the toughest systems but i'm sure it was a thrill for him to hack them. Also you don't just stroll into NASA, military and navy systems.. this was planned and executed very cleverly, obviously hoping to go undetected.
  • paul_haine 31 Jul 2008 17:28:44 4,203 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    He's admitted he did wrong. Why doesn't he comply with the US authorities and take his sentence of 3-4 years and have it done with?

    From the guardian:

    If extradited, McKinnon faces up to 70 years in prison and his lawyers have argued that he could even be given "enemy combatant" status, the same category applied to terrorist suspects interned at Guantánamo Bay.

    I assume this is why he's a bit reluctant to wander over there.
  • Deleted user 31 July 2008 17:30:21
    IronGiant wrote:
    Hopefully he will lose, plead guilty and do 2-3 years. End of story.
    Or, even better, he'll win and do 2-3 years over here. End of story.
  • oceanmotion 31 Jul 2008 17:33:40 16,833 posts
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    America are really embarrassed and throwing the imaginary book at him. If he is talented, he will serve some time and be giving a job or be forced to work for the US government while people think he is still in jail.
  • Khanivor 31 Jul 2008 17:35:34 42,763 posts
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    Yes, he faces up to 70 years in prison if he gets the full whack for each charge and the judge makes him serve the sentence consecutively. In other words, not going to fucking happen. I wonder if the deal he refers to is the same one the US is offering him, or one he wanted and they refused to agree with. You have to be careful taking the word of someone who is trying to lawyer their way out of things.

    It's a shame the Guardian was unable to base their article on much more than the claims of his lawyer, who obviously knew how to reel the reporter right in: 'Guantanamo', 'enemy combatant'. That same gitmo which is getting wound down and has had no new inmates in years.
  • MetalDog 31 Jul 2008 17:36:09 24,035 posts
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    Our extradition treaty with the US is all in their favour.
  • paul_haine 31 Jul 2008 17:37:27 4,203 posts
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    Aspic wrote:
    Out of interest, there are several high profile cases where UK citizens have been extradited to the US - this one, the bloke with a hook for a hand, the NatWest 3. But I can't think of one example of a US citizen being extradited from across the pond to serve a prison sentence over here. Has anyone got any examples, or is this just another example of our "special relationship" - you know, like the one those weird blokes had with The Gimp in Pulp Fiction.

    Nope, you're right:

    it removes the requirement on the US to provide prima facie evidence when requesting the extradition of people from the UK but maintains the requirement on the UK to satisfy the "probable cause" requirement in the US when seeking the extradition of US nationals;

    More here
  • urban 31 Jul 2008 17:38:57 12,093 posts
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    just as well none of you know anything about the case.

    America should be embarassed and they shouldn't be allowed to extradite one of OUR CITIZENS because he looked at a few of their computers.

    the hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage? that's them realising they had shit security and they needed to buy more.

    he saw all sorts of interesting things on their computers and well..he'll expose it soon enough
  • Khanivor 31 Jul 2008 17:42:19 42,763 posts
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    Last time this came up I wondered if anyone would give two flying fucks about this guy if it was a European country who wanted to extradite him. Of course, we would have to ignore that if it was a European country you probably wouldn't have heard of him till he was standing in their dock at trial, thanks to the European arrest warrant.
  • Articulate-Troll 31 Jul 2008 17:42:31 3,098 posts
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    I remember reading an interview with him in which he described how when he was hacking the system he saw other hackers from all over the world; which leads me to believe his only mistake was hacking from Britain, where the government is keen to jump at the bidding of the US.

    I'm not convinced that what he saw was the top level of the US governments network; doesn't make it right but I also don't really think he compromised anything. I think this is a case of America puffing up its chest so as not to seem weak.
  • paul_haine 31 Jul 2008 17:42:41 4,203 posts
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    urban wrote:
    just as well none of you know anything about the case.

    o.O

    What is it exactly that you know that everyone else here doesn't?
  • Dynamize 31 Jul 2008 17:44:10 1,672 posts
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    Krishna Maharaj and Kenny Richey got a fair-go huh.
  • Khanivor 31 Jul 2008 18:15:06 42,763 posts
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    Articulate-Troll wrote:
    I think this is a case of America puffing up its chest so as not to seem weak.

    It would seem to me that if this was all about the US government not wanting to seem weak then it would have been a lot smarter to just let it be and not make a scene about it.

    Maybe, just maybe, he actually caused damage and broke laws. After 9/11 it's understandable the US would want to come down hard on people who attacked their security network.

    I'm also somewhat sceptical he was quite the noob he portrays himself to be in interviews.
  • Deleted user 31 July 2008 18:25:11
    Khanivor wrote:
    Last time this came up I wondered if anyone would give two flying fucks about this guy if it was a European country who wanted to extradite him.
    o_0

    /wonders when the UK suddenly became pro-EU
  • Deleted user 31 July 2008 18:28:12
    Why should anyone go to prison for unmalicious hacking. Whose the victim? So how come the state can look at my internet comings and goings with impunity. Justice hasn't been upset just an arbitrary law. And can you occupy cyberspace and claim squatters rights?

    He should have got a job and been given thanks for exposing their incompetence before someone who might have actually used the information for violent ends had got in.
  • MetalDog 31 Jul 2008 19:15:44 24,035 posts
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    Khanivor, if you love a country, you ought to be prepared to notice and speak up when its government is doing something wrong. What you seem to be displaying is a love of the American Government instead of a love of the country. They're not the same thing.
  • Khanivor 31 Jul 2008 19:35:11 42,763 posts
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    You could not be more wrong if you tried MD. I do not love the American government and am frankly surprised you would even think that, given my years and years of attacking it. On the very few occasions where you will find me praising the actions of the US government more often than not it is simply to try and provide some alternative viewpoint to the ravages of vitriol which usually pass for 'debate' when that nation is the topic at hand.

    On the other hand, I am not going to instantly dismiss the actions of American government as wrong and evil simply because it is the American government, a habit which is very strong amongst many people, especially on this forum.

    For sure, the US government has done much to earn people's distrust and displeasure and even disgust, but to attack something not for what it is doing but simply because of who it is doing that doing is just as unthinking and blinded as supporting something simply because of who they are and regardless of what they are doing. To say it is wrong simply because it is Americans doing it is the flipside of saying it is right simple because the Americans are doing it.

    In this particular case it's undeniable some of the words coming out US prosecutor's mouths give cause for concern. But just because they threaten to throw the book at him if he doesn't comply or that his lawyer - lawyer - throws around emotionally charged words and phrases doesn't mean that we should let the guy off.
  • MetalDog 31 Jul 2008 19:48:18 24,035 posts
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    Yeah, but I don't think any of us have said that he /should/ be let off. Yet you're treating all our arguments against his current likely fate in a 'why do you hate america' way. If the same ludicrous situation was about to send him to quite possible life imprisonment in Jersey, I'd expect most reasonable people to be against it.

    What, exactly, is the objection to his serving a few years in a British Prison?
  • Khanivor 31 Jul 2008 19:58:21 42,763 posts
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    Me? I have absolutely none nor have I come close to suggesting it. If the UK authorities had prosecuted him in the first place then none of this would have come about. Who knows why they didn't. It was only after the CPS decided they couldn't be bothered that the US authorities stepped in.

    I already asked - in this thread and the last one - if this was a European country wanting to extradite the guy would there be such a hoo-haa made over it. Not managed to get anyone to claim that would be the case.

    There are a lot of people in this thread of the impression he did no damage so why should he be in any trouble. After all, it was only the stupid and brutish Americans he went after so what does it matter?
  • MetalDog 31 Jul 2008 20:02:47 24,035 posts
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    I said that "If the same ludicrous situation was about to send him to quite possible life imprisonment in Jersey, I'd expect most reasonable people to be against it."

    So yes, if a British Citizen was due to be extradited to anywhere in europe facing that sort of penalty, I would be as against it.

    The way our extradition treaty is worked out with the states is pretty revolting as well. Or do you think it's fine to have such an uneven treaty?
  • Khanivor 31 Jul 2008 20:13:52 42,763 posts
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    Well MD you're the first to have tried to draw a distinction between what he did and who he did it to. If you can extend that to dismissing the idea he would spend his life behind bars as well - no hacker/cracker has ever come close to spending such time behind bars, even for far more malicious and damaging crimes - then the discussion can move more towards deciding if he deserves to face trial or if he should be let off. So far, every court in the UK has decided he deserves to face trial.

    I mean, does anyone honestly believe this chap would be sent to Gitmo?

    Yes, the extradition treaty with the US seems lopsided and unfair. (*warning: any tone of patronisation is not intended to be taken as such*)Maybe people should pay more attention to such things before they let their government sign their rights away, (the treaty is near identical to treaties signed with NZ, Australia and Canada, btw). People criticise the treaty as if it was imposed upon them by the evil Bush administration, when it was your own 'representatives' who did the dirty. Concentrating ire on them rather than people you have zero influence over would be a more productive way to spend time.

    Which is another reason why I find the negative attitude displayed towards the US authorities a mite confusing. It's somewhat akin to blaming gravity when you fall off the chair you had balanced on a table.
  • MetalDog 31 Jul 2008 20:24:03 24,035 posts
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    Have you somehow /missed/ all the ire I've directed at my own government? And yes, it's them I blame for signing the fucking thing.

    Unfortunately you take everything remotely connected to the states as an attack on the states, which makes it pretty pointless trying to discuss anything connected with the states with you.
  • Khanivor 31 Jul 2008 23:05:46 42,763 posts
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    Well MD I'm not directing everything I say solely at you; I haven't missed what you have said but nor have I missed how this is opposed by most posts. And while some people are indeed able to make distinctions, the majority of opinions expressed on this forum which have anything to do with the US come from a very negative and prejudiced standpoint. The sad fact is most discussions which are anything remotely to do with the USA are indeed attacks on that country.

    I know I can come across as a bit defensive at times; being born in a country about which the people in the country you lived in for most of your life feel utterly content lambasting in the most xenophobic and saddening fashion can make you so. Seeing as the US is the only country which it is acceptable to hate, I'm sure you can understand how important I find it to put across an alternative opinion, (and I'm not just talking about its institutions for its people can blanketly be called stupid, ignorant, unevolved and insane without any fear of censure) Hopefully backed up with a few statements grounded more in reality than a fantasy world which is delineated by lines of black and white.

    Back to the topic - I just disagree with some people's opinions that this person should be ignored by the law simply because it is the US government who is seeking his extradition. The scaremongering of US prosecutors has been matched by that of his own lawyer and while if I was in his position I would be doing the same as he is - whatever I can to avoid facing up to my crimes - I do think that the majority of the attention focused on this case has very little indeed to do with the case itself and the words surrounding it. Maybe some good will come out of it, such as British people finding themselves awarded the same human rights which protect those across the pond, but somehow I doubt this is going to happen, especially with the current government's frightening disdain for the paltry amount of rights they already enjoy.
  • FFS 28 Aug 2008 14:00:12 650 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    Last time this came up I wondered if anyone would give two flying fucks about this guy if it was a European country who wanted to extradite him
    Probably something to do with the US legal system then.
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