Babylon 5 (WOW!) Page 2

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  • Eighthours 29 May 2008 10:24:36 705 posts
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    BSG's better, but for the time Babylon 5 was amazing. Ahead of its time, in fact. Story arcs, widescreen, etc etc.

    But JMS is an odd one. His plots are amazing, his actual scriptwork is arse.
  • Robot_Chubby 29 May 2008 10:30:34 176 posts
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    redlander wrote:
    "Babylon 5 a pile of shit"


    /runs off for jaffacakes

    :D

    "Get Out!"
  • oldschoolsoviet 29 May 2008 10:31:19 4,867 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    DDevil wrote:
    I always thought the Vorlons were the best designed TV Sci-Fi alien species ever. In terms of looks at least.
    They could have done without the sparkly magicians capes, but they were probably the best realised 'Alien' aliens, especially their tech.

    Especially, when they were finally juxtaposed against the shadows. Their yin/yang nature was revealed and it was cool to see they both had world destroyers and that kind of thing.
    Ahem. Fixed. Truly, a great series. If only the crap "let's fill an hour with typical sci-fi nonsense" episodes had been replaced with deeper, "background exploration of the arc" episodes. I'm looking at you, "old guy who thinks he's King Arthur" episode. Would've replaced that with a "day in the life of a Narn, under Centauri occupation" episode straightaway.

    You can read this ? You've helped ruin the place. :(

  • Deleted user 29 May 2008 10:35:38
    figgis wrote:
    squarejawhero wrote:
    SgtFrog wrote:
    yep, greatest sci fi show period, watched it on tv first time it aired all the way through, then the videos, then the DVDs...and you know it'll come to Blu Ray in a year or two :D

    Harks back to the time shows didn't need to signpost every major plot just in case the retarded audience (Lost I'm looking at you) wasn't clever enough to get it, and the story arcs were amazing.

    It craps all over BSG, BSG got turned into a political statement from the second season and it just wrecked the entire thing.

    I'd disagree with Season Five though, it was good in its own context, the fact it was disjointed kinda reflected that was how the B5 Universe was post "you know what" with uncertainty and stuff, but all the time the slow realisation that the problem had not been beated, merely hidden.
    What... the... fuck?

    /readies shotgun

    BSG was all about the relationships, religion and internal politics from the off. Sorry it wasn't dumb enough and full of comedy aliens from the off.

    /narrows eyes
    BSG went fucking shit in the third season though.
    I'll admit when it hit New Caprica it hit a couple of duff ep's, but the rescue from it and following episodes and conclusion totally redeemed any slight wobble it suffered.
  • shamblemonkee 29 May 2008 10:41:51 13,454 posts
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    pjmaybe wrote:
    /runs in 4 years too late

    "Babylon 5's a big pile of shit!"

    /runs out
    You're fired!

    I have great memories of B5 and am scared of wrecking them by watching it all again. I remember the best storylines being the shadow wars, the final defence of earth, and the war between the scaly lizard type guys and the gay looking frilly guys just before the shadows turned up

    the scale of the universe and it's coherence was just so much better realised than anything else.

    P.s farscape is utter gash in my view. BSG has it's moments but is still inferior.
  • Deleted user 29 May 2008 11:12:03
    shamblemonkee wrote:
    pjmaybe wrote:
    /runs in 4 years too late

    "Babylon 5's a big pile of shit!"

    /runs out
    You're fired!

    I have great memories of B5 and am scared of wrecking them by watching it all again. I remember the best storylines being the shadow wars, the final defence of earth, and the war between the scaly lizard type guys and the gay looking frilly guys just before the shadows turned up

    the scale of the universe and it's coherence was just so much better realised than anything else.

    P.s farscape is utter gash in my view. BSG has it's moments but is still inferior.
    List of people in dire need of psychological help -

    Everyone in this thread who's saying BSG is anything less than televisual writing genius.
  • MrTomFTW Moderator 29 May 2008 11:16:54 31,211 posts
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    squarejawhero wrote:
    I'll admit when it hit New Caprica it hit a couple of duff ep's, but the rescue from it and following episodes and conclusion totally redeemed any slight wobble it suffered.
    I thought all the stuff after new caprica was a bit arse to be honest. I don't give a fuck about a fucking trial... Aren't you all supposed to be running for your lives?

    Follow me on Twitter: @MrTom
    Voted by the community "Best mod" 2011 and 2012.

  • Deleted user 29 May 2008 11:30:00
    No, because at that point they'd had Caprica 6 tell them how they were being apparently being tracked and were fixing the problem.

    Duh. ;)

    Some of the best episodes were in season 3, some really well played emotional drama, such as Colonel Tai's story arc and the continuing issues between Lee Adama and Starbuck (the boxing ep has practically no science fiction in it, but is phenomenally well written). Then there's the wonderful fallability of William Adama, a man of total convictio,n yet capable of mistakes as much as anyone else. I'd go on but this is the B5 thread.
  • nickthegun 29 May 2008 11:37:54 44,333 posts
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    They start of fairly similar, but they diverge massively towards the end.

    I cant speak for your own perfsonal preferences, but there a few shitters in the first couple of series. As I say, its nothing massively negative, but overall DS9 maintains a higher quality through its run.

    On the subject of ripping off B5, DS9 actually started before B5. But JMS maintained that the paramount had ripped off a load of his ideas from his original B5 pitch. So its fairly murky.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    AGP.SRPT

  • Deleted user 29 May 2008 11:56:25
    Spoiler tags, mr Frog.

    *They don't need the human population alive in Season 3 (except to continue the story).

    This is dealt with. Two of the cylons want the population dead, the other three have reasons to keep them alive. They vote to destroy everyone and don't because they have a system of politics in place.

    *The "hidden" Cylons reaked of being attempts to stretch the story out as their actions make little sense for the most part.

    The characters presume they're cylons based on what happens to them. I've not seen season 4 yet so won't get into it yet but I trust it will makes sense, as everything else does.

    *No one ever explains how Six's copy gets all the way to the Pegasus' Captain room without any warning.

    Not seen this yet, but you do sound incredibly picky considering how big the series is!

    *Baltar + Cylon testing; "lets leave the most single important issue facing us to ONE MAN with no checks, even though we know anyone could be a Cylon!"

    He invented and created the test at this point and is the foremost scientist left alive. I think this was also dealt with and would have to rewatch to specify when, I'm sure he faked his own test? Also wasn't this the point where he was relatively trusted, if a bit odd?

    *The whole New Caprica storyline turned into a political commentary that was so forced a 3D hand may as well have appeared from the TV and rammed it down viewers throats. OH NOES IS THE HUMANS TERRORISTZ???!!!

    Yet it also led to a lot more than that. The repercussions of what happened there was felt beyond being a political commentary - nothing wrong with using real life as inspiration. It also went some way to show the grey areas of each decision from both sides, as well as continuing personal plights.

    I felt it added strength that it wasn't just left behind.

    * BSG didn't have comedy aliens, it had aliens, something BSG steered away from completely. These "comedy" aliens also played a big part in the story arc through season 3 - 4 - 5.

    I'll take your word for it. The design of B5 is what lost me, I can't remember where I left off. And yes they were comedy aliens, no matter how you paint it! The designs are sadly really dated now, I'm glad BSG didn't bow down to riffing on previous sci fi other than its own predecessor.

    * And by the way, naysayers of individual stories in B5 should remember that nearly every episode linked into the overall arc even if it was with bits of information or background information. The Earth-Minbari war special was awesome as well.

    I'll take your word for it again, but I just remember it being poorly written and acted, so stayed away from it after the age of sixteen.

    * DS9....nice idea but Star Trek's utopian feel never sat right with me, feels to much like "UN Trek". Though the film where they went back in time to stop the Borg was good.

    I'll agree with you on Star Trek. Personally I enjoyed it but it all felt a little bland, Enterprise went some way to rectify this originally but then fell into the same traps as its predecessors. DS9 was simply rather boring, imo. Voyager, however, kind of made up for it in scope if not execution...
  • Scimarad 29 May 2008 20:33:44 8,281 posts
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    I love BSG and B5. Just because you like one doesn't mean you have to have a go at the other.

    They really are not remotely alike, though.
  • Anthony_UK 29 May 2008 21:15:16 2,080 posts
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  • Deleted user 29 May 2008 23:27:03
    Thanks for the sweeping generalisations, guys.

    I did rather enjoy B5 back in the day, and no doubt the story arc is a good 'un, just in my experience, at least iirc the first three seasons (I can't remember where I left off, it was years ago), it's not quite the golden wonder some make it out to be. Mainly because I found the presentation offputting even then (aces combat though) and the characters, although well aligned, very poorly played (particularly that Bruce Willis security dude, but I remember he died or something).

    I only chimed in as I found the criticism of BSG rather astounding - particularly when someone was to list out what makes B5 good. Surely it counts that the similar strengths mean you can enjoy both?

    I am a fan of BSG, yes, but only because I recognise the qualities within. I'm not rabid, there are duff episodes - hell, it took me a year to get over season 3's rather poor start and continue where I left off on DVD, and I still feel that it's at odds with the rest of the series. However, generally, I think it's very hard to say it's not one of the most important television series' since Twin Peaks or The X-Files in terms of how it changes perceptions of how series' can be. The writing itself and acting is uncommonly good, like those sweets with the golden wrappers... and I think that it's easy to recognise those qualities even if it's not for you on viewing an episode. A bad ep of BSG is still better than most other television, imo.
  • Deleted user 28 June 2008 16:11:45
    Post deleted
  • Timmy 10 Sep 2008 14:02:46 9,031 posts
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    I'm getting the 3rd series today. Swapping the 4th series for it. I actually bought (and watched through) the 4th series thinking it was the 3rd. Doh!

    I wanna see the Shadows in all their glory dammit! :(

    Saw it Cex the other day. Hopefully it's still there.
  • Aretak 10 Sep 2008 14:08:23 9,912 posts
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    Does it get a lot better after the first series? I bought a big boxset with all of it ever made inside, only to give up about 10 episodes in because it was so excruciatingly awful. People are always raving about it though, so I'm wondering if it's worth giving it another chance...
  • Timmy 10 Sep 2008 14:23:40 9,031 posts
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    Aretak wrote:
    Does it get a lot better after the first series? I bought a big boxset with all of it ever made inside, only to give up about 10 episodes in because it was so excruciatingly awful. People are always raving about it though, so I'm wondering if it's worth giving it another chance...
    It's not as good as I remember. John Sheridan is a pretty weak character and full of hot air.

    It's the ship battles that are where the quality lies though.
  • SmoothMartin 10 Sep 2008 14:54:33 855 posts
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    Proper baseships and fighters in a TV series for once made it for me. The season three episodes Point of no return / Shattered Dreams were fantastic in that respect.

    A lot of it was hokey and JMS coudn't write comedy at all, but for its time it was way ahead of the competition.
  • von_Doll 10 Sep 2008 15:22:47 2,072 posts
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    Aretak wrote:
    Does it get a lot better after the first series?
    Yup. 2-4 are universally hailed as the show at its best, and it really is. The problem with the first season is that JMS seemed to have structured it to rub shoulders with 70s-style throwaway (ie, campy shite) sci-fi to pull audiences into something familiar. When B5 hits its stride towards the end of the second season, it becomes compelling.

    However, I find that re-watching B5 now requires getting into a groove of sorts, and appreciating that compared to modern TV drama there are parts that really blow. Hell, even at the time (there are moments when you forget that it aired alongside the first 5 seasons of the X-files) it sometimes comes across as that antiquated.

    But when it gets it right, it gets it right.

    Yes dear, I'm linking your new website everwhere I go. see - www.alldogsgotoerinn.com

  • Spanky 10 Sep 2008 15:50:26 14,408 posts
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    von_Doll wrote:
    70s-style throwaway (ie, campy shite) sci-fi
    Go fuck yourself, B5 doesn't have the shoulderpads to rub itself up against Battlestar Galactica or Buck Rogers, B5 = garbage convoluted shit.
    Proof?

    Here
    vs
    Here
    Take that sucka!
    /what did i come in here for...?

    Oh yeah...

    Babylon 5 is a big pile of shite.

    Plubs

  • Tremendosaurus 11 Sep 2008 08:55:00 1,192 posts
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    TheBlackLodge wrote:
    Would have been nice to see the Ivanova/Byron/Talia love triangle play out.
    Byron was a shit character, played by a shit actor. He's the primary cause of me hating that series.
  • paul_haine 11 Sep 2008 19:23:22 4,205 posts
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    Tremendosaurus wrote:
    TheBlackLodge wrote:
    Would have been nice to see the Ivanova/Byron/Talia love triangle play out.
    Byron was a shit character, played by a shit actor. He's the primary cause of me hating that series.
    I liked the bit where he gets a guy to punch him in the face a few times. Best Byron moment by far that.
  • Sorbicol 11 Sep 2008 21:05:35 591 posts
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    Having re watched it last year I thought that B5 still stood up as a great series (especially season 3 and Londo's descent into the Narn Genocide) but it hadn't aged all that well. Season 5 was shit because JMS had written it as a 5 season series. I think it was Warners who told him they wouldn't fund a 5th season at the start of filming the 4th season, so he had to cram 2 seasons worth of plot into that 4th season This is why the Shadow / Vorlon war ends so abruptly. The sci-Fi season picked it up again and he pretty much had to write the 5th season from scratch, hence is was so crap!

    BSG pisses all over B5 though. It's better acted and better realised.
  • Sar 12 Sep 2008 23:47:27 273 posts
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    B5 - Favourite series EVAR.

    BSG - Favourite currently airing series, which will sit at #2 after B5 when it finishes airing.
  • TakeTheVeil 17 Aug 2009 21:59:47 5,058 posts
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    Has anyone ever noticed the kind of false endings B5 has. Nearly every episode has a scene that feels like the final scene in that episode but then goes on to do another one or two scene before ending. Its just something I noticed while watching it here.

    It even has that last-scene dramatic music but then cuts back to a normal scene before finishing
  • TakeTheVeil 17 Aug 2009 22:01:07 5,058 posts
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    I'm just finished watching 'The Coming of the Shadows', half way through Season 2. Easily the best episode yet. Bit of Sinclair too
  • WrongShui 17 Aug 2009 22:05:36 6,466 posts
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    TakeTheVeil wrote:
    Has anyone ever noticed the kind of false endings B5 has. Nearly every episode has a scene that feels like the final scene in that episode but then goes on to do another one or two scene before ending. Its just something I noticed while watching it here.

    It even has that last-scene dramatic music but then cuts back to a normal scene before finishing
    Something Smallville does on each ep, there's the ending and then the epilogue.
  • M83J01P97 17 Aug 2009 22:09:38 5,750 posts
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    Ergh... I so want to watch B5 properly (only saw an episode here and there when it was on TV) but have just got into the new BSG and after starting to watch all of DS9 from the start earlier this year I kind of think watching B5 now just won't be as good as it could be without all the other great Sci-Fi running through my head...
  • TakeTheVeil 17 Aug 2009 22:14:56 5,058 posts
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    M83J01P97 wrote:
    Ergh... I so want to watch B5 properly (only saw an episode here and there when it was on TV) but have just got into the new BSG and after starting to watch all of DS9 from the start earlier this year I kind of think watching B5 now just won't be as good as it could be without all the other great Sci-Fi running through my head...
    Well thats exactly what I did. All DS9, then all BSG in the last few months.. now im watching B5 and thoroughly enjoying it.
  • Deleted user 17 August 2009 22:19:33
    The false endings are not really that, more a reflection that the idea of B5 was to make each episode about more than one story, like a real day - albeit fantastical.

    BSG had great ideas, and some truly great moments - BSG free falling onto New Caprica whilst throwing Vipers out was a rival to any moment in B5, plus Pegasus and BSG facing each other down - in fact that whole two episode story was amazing ....however it then wrecked itself with a convoluted religious plot mixed with a repetitive Cylon/human theme, and trying to make itself some kind of modern commentary on current events which then crapped out to nothing.

    B5 had a greater sense of universe to it, with a history and scores of races - BSG made no sense that somehow mankind finds 12 habitable worlds which support life BUT have no other life on them bar animals. The previous Cylon War was only vaguely touched upon in BSG, whereas in B5 the Earth Minbari war became central to the series. When it first aired the mystery of why the Minbari surrender despite being on the verge of ahhnilating Earth was a massive wait, nearly 2 years of on and off C4 airing!

    BSG was also guilty of the most unforgivable of devices being used by shows right now - plot twists done by characters which are explained away by alternate personalities/being someone else. B5 nearly always had hints that you could spot and it made it all seem more real.

    Both are good, but for me B5 was an outstanding series, BSG has some outstanding episodes.

    And both are far better than 99% of the toss passing for scifi/fantast tv right now.
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