CERN's LHC "The most complicated thing that humans have ever built" Page 5

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  • spindizzy 16 Apr 2008 15:05:03 6,427 posts
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    jellyhead wrote:
    0_o
    I bloody KNEW it!
    ... and they want to use the LHC to generate a black hole to destroy the evidence! They are nothing but Rascals from Rascaldom i say!

    Anyway, do you think we're actually in any danger of making something like this that could go horribly wrong?
    What i mean is with all this new stuff, could there be something in the numbers that we miss and the next thing *poof* cockroaches get their chance. :)

    No. As I said before, we're replicating something that happens in nature the whole time (the only difference being that we have far lower energies, but much higher luminosities ... i.e. we have high densities of these particles, but they are less energetic)
  • wobbler147 16 Apr 2008 15:07:49 5,136 posts
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    DOWN WITH THIS SORT OF THING
  • w00t 16 Apr 2008 15:25:31 11,047 posts
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    spindizzy wrote:
    w00t wrote:
    A friend of mine who is a particl physicist works at SLAC in Stanford says there's no way a black hole can be made at LHC, and that these stories make him sad.
    It's certainly not very likely, but it is just about possible.

    Here's one paper on it (which I haven't read yet incidentally):
    http://arxiv.org/pdf/hep-ph/0411095
    Hmm. I have forwarded it to him and will relay what he has to say. Incidentally, here he is working hard. He is in the yellow shirt, attempting to dance.

    The day charity died - NEVER FORGET

    (the mic was OK in the end)

  • mcmonkeyplc 16 Apr 2008 15:44:14 39,384 posts
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    ITER and CERN join forces

    Death Star to follow.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • jellyhead 16 Apr 2008 15:51:20 24,350 posts
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    It's built in France though so no big problem if it does go boom. ;)

    This signature intentionally left blank.

  • mcmonkeyplc 16 Apr 2008 16:03:40 39,384 posts
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    jellyhead wrote:
    It's built in France though so no big problem if it does go boom. ;)

    It cant go boom, science has spoken!

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • w00t 16 Apr 2008 16:05:18 11,047 posts
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    That was quick!

    Here is his response:

    The LHC can produce black holes (if the plank scale is ~TeV and there are 'large' extra dimensions which only gravity can move through as these guys say). The point is that unless the laws of thermodynamics also break down then the black hole would evaporate through Hawking radiation in ~10e-11 seconds.

    The LHC is using proton-proton collisions which are essentially identical to the processes forming cosmic rays in the upper atmosphere all the time (and cosmics can have much higher energies). That means if these things can be produced then they already have been repeatedly many times all over the solar system since it formed around 5 billion years ago.

    /looks out window and notices the Earth and Sun (in California at least) are still there
    So there you have it.

    The day charity died - NEVER FORGET

    (the mic was OK in the end)

  • chudders 16 Apr 2008 16:08:46 755 posts
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    w00t wrote:
    That was quick!

    Here is his response:

    The LHC can produce black holes (if the plank scale is ~TeV and there are 'large' extra dimensions which only gravity can move through as these guys say). The point is that unless the laws of thermodynamics also break down then the black hole would evaporate through Hawking radiation in ~10e-11 seconds.

    The LHC is using proton-proton collisions which are essentially identical to the processes forming cosmic rays in the upper atmosphere all the time (and cosmics can have much higher energies). That means if these things can be produced then they already have been repeatedly many times all over the solar system since it formed around 5 billion years ago.

    /looks out window and notices the Earth and Sun (in California at least) are still there
    So there you have it.

    Yes but can it microwave a Ginsters without making the pastry soggy? Otherwise, a colossal waste of fucking time and money.
  • jellyhead 16 Apr 2008 16:20:10 24,350 posts
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    Chudders, i think you've hit upon one of the great mysteries of the universe there. Solve it and mankind is your bitch for eternity.

    Well, I'd bow to you and make you a cuppa at least. :)

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  • spindizzy 16 Apr 2008 16:41:14 6,427 posts
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    w00t wrote:
    That was quick!

    Here is his response:

    The LHC can produce black holes (if the plank scale is ~TeV and there are 'large' extra dimensions which only gravity can move through as these guys say). The point is that unless the laws of thermodynamics also break down then the black hole would evaporate through Hawking radiation in ~10e-11 seconds.

    The LHC is using proton-proton collisions which are essentially identical to the processes forming cosmic rays in the upper atmosphere all the time (and cosmics can have much higher energies). That means if these things can be produced then they already have been repeatedly many times all over the solar system since it formed around 5 billion years ago.

    /looks out window and notices the Earth and Sun (in California at least) are still there
    So there you have it.

    Which is *exactly* what I have been saying, but without being as technical. ;-)

    We might produce them (though it's pretty unlikely) but then they won't be around long enough to cause problems. Your friend might also have mentioned how these blackholes are going to be so tiny that they'd struggle to grow (even if they didn't evaporate as we think). They will have the same gravitational pull as a mosquito, and could sit in the centre of the earth for aeons without causing a problem.

  • w00t 16 Apr 2008 16:48:08 11,047 posts
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    Hooray for scientic consensus!

    The day charity died - NEVER FORGET

    (the mic was OK in the end)

  • spindizzy 16 Apr 2008 16:57:26 6,427 posts
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    FeZZ wrote:
    pff higher dimensions, all crap made up so the math behind it makes sense.

    Possibly. ;-)
  • DodgyPast 16 Apr 2008 17:07:46 8,414 posts
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    jellyhead wrote:
    Chudders, i think you've hit upon one of the great mysteries of the universe there. Solve it and mankind is your bitch for eternity.

    Well, I'd blow you and make you a cuppa at least. :)
    fixed :p
  • coastal 16 Apr 2008 17:25:07 5,377 posts
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    Without trying to sound sexist but tbh still quite sexist. What's the most complicated thing that women have ever built

    Can you build a bath full of candle lights?
    Can you build a shoe sale?

    I can't think of one single thing that women have built. That's shameful. I hope it's my ignorance.

    bf3: sergeant_shaftoe

  • coastal 16 Apr 2008 17:30:36 5,377 posts
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    Windscreen Wipers, Bras and Chocolate Chip Cookies & COBOL. That's it.

    bf3: sergeant_shaftoe

  • chudders 16 Apr 2008 17:36:12 755 posts
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    Rooney wrote:
    FeZZ wrote:
    But women are great to have sex with, so that evens it out.

    You sexist you.

    And most arn't great at that.....the last handjob I got was terrible, she looked like joey deacon playing dice.



    Ha ha, nice one.
  • Ginger 16 Apr 2008 17:39:41 6,826 posts
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    spindizzy - just so I can understand what you said - we're producing lower energies that exist in the collisions in the upper atmosphere, but producing them much more frequently - many many orders of magnitude more frequently, right?

    London open taekwondo champion

  • spindizzy 16 Apr 2008 17:57:21 6,427 posts
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    Ginger wrote:
    spindizzy - just so I can understand what you said - we're producing lower energies that exist in the collisions in the upper atmosphere, but producing them much more frequently - many many orders of magnitude more frequently, right?

    Almost: not more frequently, but more in one place (more concentrated, if you like)
  • warlockuk 16 Apr 2008 18:11:09 19,133 posts
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    I can't believe they're still talking when there's science to do...

    I'm a grumpy bastard.

  • Khanivor 16 Apr 2008 18:12:53 40,360 posts
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    Isn't Hawking radiation an unproven theory? If we are relying on it to stop teh black holez and it turns out wheelchair boy got his sums wrong....
  • warlockuk 16 Apr 2008 18:17:21 19,133 posts
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    They've made black holes already, though? These ones will probably be so small they piss themselves out of existence.

    I'm a grumpy bastard.

  • spindizzy 16 Apr 2008 18:38:01 6,427 posts
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    FeZZ wrote:
    So if they find the higgs bosson, wouldn't that be the most boring thing ever ?
    It's great to be right, but it wouldn't open any new doors now would it ?

    Well, it's not the ONLY thing we'll be investigating!
  • spindizzy 16 Apr 2008 18:38:26 6,427 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    Isn't Hawking radiation an unproven theory? If we are relying on it to stop teh black holez and it turns out wheelchair boy got his sums wrong....

    See earlier comments about cosmic rays.
  • spindizzy 16 Apr 2008 18:39:12 6,427 posts
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    warlockuk wrote:
    They've made black holes already, though? These ones will probably be so small they piss themselves out of existence.

    No they really, really haven't made black holes before. Honestly, trust me on this.
  • Xerx3s 16 Apr 2008 18:40:31 23,944 posts
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    jellyhead wrote:
    It's built in France though so no big problem if it does go boom. ;)

    Oh and you think that they build that tunnel under the sea just for trains?
  • GrandpaUlrira 16 Apr 2008 19:16:30 3,753 posts
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    FeZZ wrote:
    So if they find the higgs bosson, wouldn't that be the most boring thing ever ?
    It's great to be right, but it wouldn't open any new doors now would it ?
    Depends on what type of Higgs they find.
  • Nostrus 17 Apr 2008 15:23:10 376 posts
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    How many types are there?

    Also, I've heard that this thing will consume power relative to that used to run Geneva. Is the power infrastructure in Europe designed to handle this? I mean, how gutted are you guys going to be if you flick the switch on and nothing happens because you just fused the South of France?

    It just seems like a very expensive willy waving exercise to me. You physicists should go do something more constructive, like find out how to stop global warming or something!
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