Year ahead a "struggle" for Xbox

By Eurogamer staff Published 6 June, 2008

Analysts paint a grim picture.

Clever industry analysts have laid into the Microsoft Xbox business, calling its attempts to grab the casual audience "disastrous" and predicting it will "start to struggle in the market" in 2008.

The dissenting voices came from a panel speaking at the Nordic Game 2008 conference in Sweden last month. When called to asses the current state of the worldwide games market, analysts painted Microsoft a less than rosy picture.

"When you look at an installed base basis, the Xbox 360's going to come in third place when all's said and done," said David Cole from DFC Intelligence - some sort of videogames spy organisation presumably.

"The concern I would have with a company like Microsoft is, one of these days they're going to have to make a profit on this business otherwise why are they in it?"

Nick Parker, who runs Parker Consulting, and an analyst from Screen Digest argued that the Xbox 360 failure to win Europe was because of a fundamental image problem.

"The trouble with Xbox 360 is it hasn't managed to shake off this urban, irreverent adult male feel; so it hasn't gained traction in the more casual gaming markets of mainland Europe such as France, Spain and Italy, where it's stalled," said Parker. "And there are already rumours of Xbox 360 being delisted from certain retailers."

Parker, who used to work for Sony, hammered his argument home by suggesting Microsoft had learnt nothing from the mistakes of its first Xbox.

"I think they started off badly with the Xbox itself: blood and breasts. This alienated it immediately to a lot of consumers around Europe, and they never got over that. The brand image never went away. And although Halo 3 is a big game, it just emphasises again what the Xbox is all about," added Parker.

"If you go talk to people in Seville, in Rome, they're not interested in that. They're much more casual gamers, they don't want to have such competitive games."

Cole (from DFC Intelligence - keep up) said although Microsoft was struggling to break its hardcore borders, it was still possible for publishers to rack-up strong sales on typically Xbox titles.

"If you're doing a first-person shooter title, you're clearly going to want to be on Xbox 360, and that's for years to come. [But] their efforts at marketing outside of the first-person shooter crowd have been disastrous," he said.

Microsoft hired former Nintendo Europe chief David Gosen (The Gosen One) earlier this year to to head its casual attack on the continent.

Globally the Xbox 360 leads the PS3 by 19 million sales to 12.85, respectively, although Microsoft had a year's headstart. Perhaps the surprise leader of the generation remains Nintendo with Wii sales of 24.4 million.

While the European picture looks grim for Microsoft, with regional Sony boss David Reeves proclaiming a PS3 win on the continent already, the Xbox 360 still performs strongly in the UK and in its home US territory.

Last month Xbox boss Don Mattrick boasted about reaching the 10 million sales landmark, producing rousing statements such as, "History has shown us that the first company to reach 10 million in console sales wins the generation battle."

The panel accused Mattrick of "clutching at straws".

"[Microsoft] get very defensive because they realise the US is their last stronghold now as their sales go into decline across the rest of the world," said Parker (ex-Sony, runs Parker Consulting - keep up).

"So they're a little bit desperate and they're clutching at straws now to cling on to what they've got in the market which is primarily the US."

Parker also drudged-up the "tremendous brand loyalty to PlayStation", which he claims caused many to hold off entering the new generation until Sony and its familiar brands did.

Cole (DFC Intelligence) rued that "there's always the risk" Microsoft might reconsider its place in the console business because of all this.

"They will have to assess their position after this round, and clearly they were very committed to saying they were going to stick with this business through another console system. They haven't really talked much beyond that and I know that really at some point they are going to have to figure out how they're going to make money out of this business."

And while Cole said he expected "the Xbox 360 start to struggle in the market" over the next 12 months, he admitted that Sony faced similar problems to turn PS3 sales into profit.

The Wii was also picked on; despite its success, the panel questioned its long-term prospects and the commitment of its casual audience.

"There's a risk that they [casual users] could actually put the Wii in the wardrobe if there isn't a steady stream of games that please them," offered Martin Lindell, a Swedish analyst.

Parker agreed: "You've got to remember there's a difference between buying and playing - the fact that you get your grandma to play the game doesn't mean she's going out to buy it. I'm still in that kind of faddish feeling about the Wii."

DFC Cole stood by historical third-party support issues as causing a potential long-term risk for the Wii.

"It's a huge issue that Nintendo dominates the platforms they own, as that's how they make all their money," said Cole.

"We see the Wii having a higher installed base but the PS3 generating, by about 2010 to 2011, more revenue in terms of software."

Microsoft did have one smouldering champion at the session. When the panel began criticising Sony and Microsoft for making too many different models of their consoles - specifically referencing the Xbox 360 Elite - an unusually silent Epic Games boss Mark Rein bellowed, "Are you guys crazy?", claiming the victimised unit had been the only profitable model for Microsoft.

Predict your own future by making Tarot Cards based on GamesIndustry.biz fact.

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Comments (303) Latest comment 4 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Quint2020 #1 4 years ago

    I wish i could be an analyst getting paid to spout off unproven gibberish sounds really easy.
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 14:43

  • CannonAnBall #2 4 years ago

    ...glad I got rid of the Shitbox360! lol

  • mikeck #3 4 years ago

    All these figures etc are interesting , and yes it's very good for Ninty that the Wii has surpassed everybody's expectations perhaps, but the Wii is for the casual/family orientated gamer (in most cases I would say, but of course not all) and the price is also on it's side.

    Of course this is a three-horse race, but I would always consider the Wii to be on the outside of the 360 and PS3, because it is a different beast in a way. Either way, this amount of competition is always healthy, and I love both the 360 and the PS3 and to be honest I couldn't care less which is selling better. As long as the developers concentrate on making consistently good games we all win right?

  • Coughthulu #4 4 years ago

    Is it just me that reads all of their statements as pretty much "Down with this sort of thing!" in general? What do they think about PC gaming, is it too "niche"?

    How do these people actually make any money?

  • CannonAnBall #5 4 years ago

    @ squarejawhero

    Funnily I just thought of the term 'Shitbox360'. Might have read it somewhere else.

    I own a MegaDrive and my favourite game is Desert Strike.

  • PlugMonkey #6 4 years ago

    What a load of unmitigated horse shit that lot was.

    "The trouble with Xbox 360 is it hasn't managed to shake off this urban, irreverent adult male feel"

    While this might be true, I think the fact I don't know a single person who is still on their first one is probably worth a mention too. The chronic reliability problems have definitely been putting off a lot of people I know.

    "I'm still in that kind of faddish feeling about the Wii."

    Yeah. That's what the 'expert analysts' said about the DS...

  • peteb #7 4 years ago

    I feel glad that the 360 isn't "casual", it means I can play some decent games.

    I'm seriously worried what the follow up console will be like should there be one though. It'll have 67 games on launch day, with their titles all ending in "z".

  • Katsumoto #8 4 years ago

    Jungle Strike was x10 better.

  • mikeck #9 4 years ago

    @ CannonAnBall

    Stick your Mega Drive...it's all about the SNES...sucker ;)

  • Quint2020 #10 4 years ago

    "Stick your Mega Drive...it's all about the SNES...sucker ;)"

    /MEGA shuns

  • mikeck #11 4 years ago

    "While this might be true, I think the fact I don't know a single person who is still on their first one is probably worth a mention too. The chronic reliability problems have definitely been putting off a lot of people I know. "

    I'm on my first one (it's a Japanese import though, not sure if that makes any difference)...if I go home now though and it dies on me I'm going to be an unhappy bunny though...just my luck that I open my gob and it would happen too...

  • mikeck #12 4 years ago

    "/MEGA shuns"

    I was trying to make SNES into some sort of catchy comeback and I couldn't...so up your bum and no babies!!! :)

  • Quint2020 #13 4 years ago

    "I was trying to make SNES into some sort of catchy comeback and I couldn't...so up your bum and no babies!!! :)"

    .................................. my place or yours...?

  • systems #14 4 years ago

    Seems about right to me. The Xbox will always be the "typical male gamer" console, the Wii will always be the "casual citizen" console and the PS3 will be somewhere between the two but the high price keeping it away from the truly casual gamers (BD player, fancy styling, PS2 brand familiarity).

    Before anyone moans about fanboyism I own all three so pack that right in.

  • mikeck #15 4 years ago

    ".................................. my place or yours...? "

    Smoothie ;)

  • muscleblade #16 4 years ago

    No matter who wins - the 360 remain the best console for serious gamers.

    I love Nintendo from the past but i dont think they derserve to win with the Wii. And although the PS3 is very good its not as good as the 360 no matter how you see it. If the 360 really loose - the gamers loose.

  • stampax #17 4 years ago

    Whilst everyone likes to have a go at analysts, isnt what the guy was saying pretty likely? Rightly or wrongly people will buy a ps3 purely because it's Sony - the reality is many people still refer to all computer games as 'playstations'. And there is little doubt that however great the 360 is - its unlikely to appeal to mass markets in the way the wii and the ps3 will.
    Whilst there is obviously a massive argument to be had over which is the best machine - don't most agree the likeihood is that the 360 will come last out of the three in the end in terms of numbers bought?

  • Dizzy #18 4 years ago

    Developers and Attach rate. Case closed.

    "And while Cole said he expected "the Xbox 360 start to struggle in the market" over the next 12 months, he admitted that Sony faced similar problems to turn PS3 sales into profit.

    The Wii was also picked on; despite its success, the panel questioned its long-term prospects and the commitment of its casual audience.
    "

    Err?? So all 3 are going to struggle?
    Edited by 2 at 06/06/08 @ 14:58

  • lambtron #19 4 years ago

    "I notice that the main critic was ex-Sony. Says it all really."

    Indeed.

  • peteb #20 4 years ago

    @marronthered

    shooters and racers aren't fun?

  • Goffee #21 4 years ago

    Analysts only make money if people buy their reports. Putting big claims in these reports, especially in 'soft' areas like console futures, where you can make almost any prediction, gives them headlines and attracts buyers.

    The likely reality is infinitely more boring. All three console makers will trudge on with MS and Sony losing some money (maybe break even), Nintendo making pots of money and the developers, apart from EA, struggling to turn a coin for the next two/three years (See this prediction stuff is simple)

    As we enter the next cycle refresh (XXX3, PS4, WiiToo), gaming will hit the worst barrier yet. Games too expensive to make, not enough people buying them until the new machines are cheaper. One of them, most likely XXX3 will not make it far out of the gates, 'doing a Dreamcast' I think it is called.

    The devs will love only having two platforms to create for and we enter a new golden age of gaming with PS4 aiming high and WiiToo being a HD/internet family games terminal. WiiToo will dominate as Nintendo uses the money they are putting in the bank now to undercut Sony prices to ridiculous effect.

    On the negative (or positive, depending on your point of view) side, boxed software all but dies out and all Game stores shut down.

  • DFawkes #22 4 years ago

    @squarejawhero
    I'd be willing to bet you're more qualified to be an "analyst" than these jokers. You should get paid for your analysis :) I'd even appreciate headlines like "All Major Console 'Fucked' says leading Analyst" far more than the usual tripe.

  • Dizzy #23 4 years ago

    Mark Rein was seen laughing his ass off in the bar afterwards ;)

  • qwerty123 #24 4 years ago

    "If you go talk to people in Seville, in Rome, they're not interested in that. They're much more casual gamers, they don't want to have such competitive games."

    sounds to me like the rest of the world are all wimps and its left up to the UK and US customers to keep playing traditional so called 'hardcore' games
    PS. I also own a Wii for the novelty factor

  • Wash #25 4 years ago

    :S is it just me that sees no real difference between the ps3 and 360 libraries?

    Only little big planet seems to stick out. Both of them awash with FPS, JRPG, Western RPG, Action Adventures......

    Maybe i'm just not that up on gaming, or are sony using the blu-ray as the casual draw i guess.

  • Goffee #26 4 years ago

    @marronthered - Yep, selling all my Game shares and shredding my Atari Fanclub newsletters before the narcs arrive.

  • HardToast #27 4 years ago

    What makes me laugh is fanboys, and I do think 360 ones are the worst.
    When the system was looking like it 'could' beat the PS3 everyone was saying, Wahooo!
    Now the fanboys are saying 'OMG at least we have a better attach rate than the PS3' I mean, c'mon get a grip.

  • Eraysor #28 4 years ago

    Nice typo on assess - asses!

  • subtlesnake #29 4 years ago

    From the article: "The concern I would have with a company like Microsoft is, one of these days they're going to have to make a profit on this business otherwise why are they in it?"

    "They will have to assess their position after this round, and clearly they were very committed to saying they were going to stick with this business through another console system. They haven't really talked much beyond that and I know that really at some point they are going to have to figure out how they're going to make money out of this business."

    They've made a profit for the last 3 quarters.

  • Dark_Stranger #30 4 years ago

    "blood and breasts" isnt that an S&M mag?

  • jachap #31 4 years ago

    Looks like they got hit by the COLE TRAIN.

  • ps3owner #32 4 years ago

    @bcolter

    What the FUCK! A MAC FANBOY!!! !!! GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE!!!!!

  • mossychops001 #33 4 years ago

    Well, the Xbox360 has hit its plateau in the logical function S-curve quicker than the original Xbox. So he may be right?

  • miiiguel #34 4 years ago

    CannonAnBall, so you're glad because you don't own a 360 and this guy said it is not for wimps ? okeeee...

  • chrisjm #35 4 years ago

    eurogamer, dig out all of these reports in the last 3-4 years and give us a 'success rate'

    i bet most are wrong (ps3 teh win, wii wont sell etc etc), and hopefully this will shame these people and also stop you printing their made up dribble which only gives it credibility which it doesnt deserve.

  • Killerbee #36 4 years ago

    There's a lot of negativity from all sides there, which I think is a little ill-founded - the industry's in pretty good shape right now! - but the profitability point (about Microsoft) is key though. How long are Microsoft's shareholders, investors and sernior management going to carry on throwing cash at a division that is failing to turn a profit across a product's lifetime? Yes, they've started making a profit recently, but there's a hell of a lot of catching up to do for the losses since project Xbox began.

    Nintendo will obviously continue since (a) they're rolling in cash from the Wii; and (b) gaming and consoles is what they do.

    Sony will also continue - PS3 may have floundered in the early months and years, but it's starting to turn itself around and over the long term I think will come good. Not as good as the PS2, but still worthwhile from a business point of view. Plus Sony execs will always see the sucesses of the PS1 and PS2 as proof they can make the console business work. That's got to be worth doing the Playstation 4 at the very least.

    Microsoft might be the richest company of all of them, but it's also the one that, to be brutally honest, needs to stay in the console business the least. They'd make far more profit selling software and online service infrastructure to the other two than making their own console. MS execs must have thought of this too?

  • space_ace #37 4 years ago

    ps3lo... no wait

  • Les #38 4 years ago

    Have they been reading my comments around here!? ;)

    Despite delivering good software (if HD upgrades are good enough for you) the 360 isn't making any money and shows declining sales. It's a failure. But I'm not sure whether releasing later would have helped. I think 360 might have been in an even worse position. Many of the PlayStation exclusives moved to 360 as well because of its year headstart (and the associated larger installed base) strengthening the position of the machine with regards to multi-plat titles.

  • nickthegun #39 4 years ago

    Brand image? God...im no over-paid-coke-snorting-market analyst but I think the 360 woes can be put down to three things:

    1) Reliability
    2) Reliability
    3) Reliability

  • ps3owner #40 4 years ago

    @bcolter

    sorry I forgot. apple is now intels bitch, no wait, it's the other way around... so, you'll be able to play games as well ;) and yes I am clueless. Apple is the perfect games platform, I am sure it is.... no wait, did I get that right? probably not... you are after all the expert.

    I have no clue

  • miiiguel #41 4 years ago

    er..., what about games? I mean like, in having fun with a 200 Eur box? Reliabilty is important for my car, and my heating system, my gaming box is important but it isn't the end of the world.

  • Canyarion #42 4 years ago

    Playstation is more popular than Xbox in Europe.
    I've always said that it's not because we love Sony so much, but because we hate Microsoft.

    @subtlesnake, who said "They've made a profit for the last 3 quarters."
    And for how long are they in the console business? More than 6 years, and they have to count the time they've made profit in quarters?? Sooner or later they're going to realize it's just a waste of money.

  • miiiguel #43 4 years ago

    "but because we hate Microsoft."
    Speak for yourself, I hate no one.

  • teknohead #44 4 years ago

    I used to have a 360, had three RROD experiences so I switched to PS3. Enjoying it so far.

  • teknohead #45 4 years ago

    Oh and macs are for gays.

  • miiiguel #46 4 years ago

    So, this means we're not having a new Xbox by yhe end of the year like I read in these foruns ?

  • NegativeZero #47 4 years ago

    ""The concern I would have with a company like Microsoft is, one of these days they're going to have to make a profit on this business otherwise why are they in it?""

    I thought that MS had been in the green for at least the last two or three quarters? Pretty much from Halo 3's launch onwards?

  • AliRay #48 4 years ago

    IMHO, the 360 has been my best console since the SNES or PS1 (can't decide), if M$ did leave the console 'arena' I'd be hard-pushed to continue gaming. I also own a Wii which I never use :(

    The continued move towards casual gaming will only end up with the loss of old-school 'hardcore' gamers like most if the folks who read/participate in this site.

  • ps3owner #49 4 years ago

    @bcolter

    no I don't. I suppose by "entering the Hand held market" your mean the iPhone (ipod touch) that should support gaming? (via touch interface... cough...)

    or are they planning on introducing a new handheld? I don't follow the Mac rumor site.. fill me in, you are obviously the expert.

  • bad09 #50 4 years ago

    Wow what a downer on 360! coming from an ex-Sony man though it's obviously utter lies :)

    In truth he is right the 360 cannot make headway in that casual market which starts to snap up consoles when the price goes down. The Wii left gamers alone and went straight for that market and has nailed it big time.

    But I for one am glad, I detest this casual market that they all seem to be scrambling for and the software devs shove out to please it. I'm a gamer so most of this casual crap that has only really surfaced halfway though PS2s life with singstar and buzz etc. has absolutely no interest for me.

    It really concerns me that talk is always of casuals now, at times lately it seems they want to move away from serious gamers. Sure there is a lot of money to be had and devs can make a killing putting average or simple games to please the casual masses but for the love of god don't forget the people who made your industry, us gamers (or "hardcore" gamers if you will).

    The thought of the next gen being all about Singstar and WiiFit leaves me cold and if it did happen I may go back to scrabble and Chess!
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 15:39

  • mossychops001 #51 4 years ago

    Xbox911 war on consoles.

  • snick #52 4 years ago

    What exactly is it about the PS3 that puts it in the middle ground. The main exclusives its had are driving games, FPS's, and MGS. The rest are just the same as the xbox, but as the EG comparisons have shown, inferior versions.

    Sure the xbox has gears and such like, but at the same time its got a huge amount of gaming available on the marketplace that certainly aren't hardcore. Plus its cheaper to get yourself an arcade than a wii. Surely that should speak to the masses.

  • Widge #53 4 years ago

    A new MS console would be suicide!

  • bdaggers #54 4 years ago

    This just in : 78.7% of people in Sweden believe that : "analysts are fucking useless"

    Fact

  • evilbert #55 4 years ago

    @seamonsterneil - I would pay good money to see that! :)

    @EG - can you set up a filter similar to the 'ignore poster' one that automatically blocks anyone that says 'lol' in their post?

    I don't get the whole console wars thing, to be honest. It was the same with Bluray vs HDDVD a while back, with people cheering one on like they were a football team. Surely, more console manufacturers = more competition = better deals for gamers?

  • miiiguel #56 4 years ago

    I can only imagine if this report said "Year ahead "struggle" for PS3"....

    "oh the BIAS! oh you evil dudes! MS payed you? didn't they?!!"

  • Skywise #57 4 years ago

    Could be the first time Mark Rein says something sensible :-)

  • Codger81 #58 4 years ago

    "bcolter

    Everyone knows handhelds are the future, and Apple will be in that game soon enough."

    I agree it's the future, but i don't think it will every supplant home consoles. i imagine most people would rather a massive high def screen and surround sound than a small screen.

  • Eighthours #59 4 years ago

    What a load of absolute rubbish. Hilarious, in fact.

  • bad09 #60 4 years ago

    "I can only imagine if this report said "Year ahead "struggle" for PS3"...."

    But Miiguel, that doesn't need to be said as everyone knows :)

  • Aloominum_man #61 4 years ago

    Speaking of global economic downturn, how's the casual marketplace going to fare when hard-pressed families have choose between petrol, food, mortgage/rent or software for the Wii? PS3 and (more specifically) Xbox owners seem to be a bit more dedicated to their pursuits and, I'd imagine, more inclined to prioritise new purchases even when their finances are under pressure. Thoughts?

  • Dizzy #62 4 years ago

    "I agree it's the future, but i don't think it will every supplant home consoles. i imagine most people would rather a massive high def screen and surround sound than a small screen. "

    Well looking at japan it seems that people prefer to game only when they have time and than means handhelds. PS3 and 360 are a total joke atm in Japan.

    BTW maybe next gen DS and/or PSP will easily connect to TVs? That would complete the circle. And yes power wise, those new consoles would not evolve so fast... do they need to? Maybe that is a market for PC hardcore gamers?
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 15:50

  • sanctusmortis #63 4 years ago

    I read all that as "Xbox will struggle because we say so". Casual gamers are to the industry what casual drinkers and smokers are to off licenses - not as good a source of income as the less casual, more regular/addicted kind.

    The Wii, sadly, is a fad; I don't think I've bought a game since Mario, and have no plans to change that except Brawl; the most use it's seen lately is to play Resident Evil 4 through the GC mode.

  • daedaloz #64 4 years ago

    Seriously though..

    If you want to talk about "serious" gaming getting fucked in the ass.. try us PC gamers.. where the fuck is our love?

    Almost all of the games starting out on PC has shifted to consoles.. are the controles better? no, key + mouse 4tw
    Graphics? no, we ALL know that current PC games have far FAR superior graphics than ANY console ever will have.
    Reliability? maybe.. but PC games can be modded etc to hell..

    The only reason I bought a console is because I realized that the game manufactures along with the industry doesn't give two shits about you or your loyalty.. so why fight it, when all your fav. PC games turn into console games.. they only want to make money, and what better way to do that than to appeal to mass casual players, families.. etc... Wii and PS3 amongst others... It's obvious.. but very very annoying.

    Oh well... I can still laugh my ass off when Starcraft II releases.. Best game of the fucking century.. only on PC :)
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 15:50

  • Codger81 #65 4 years ago

    "@Codger81 - I agree, but it will most certainly be the wii business model, not the 360 or PS3 model with expensive hardware and huge development budgets"

    Makes sense. At the least the current market manages to cater to everyone which is more than can be said of the last generation. If the current state of 3 brands each with their niche continues, I doubt we'll ever see the likes of PS2's 100m sales againanytime soon.

    Horses for courses after all.

  • SWboarder #66 4 years ago

    sad how the best true gaming console is losing, xbox 360 (and the xbox brand in general) reeks of dreamcast :(, great unique titles and solid online play, yet slowly losing to the utter bull sh1t spouted out by Sony. 120fps and 1080p, yea, rite...

  • ps3owner #67 4 years ago

    @bcolter
    "With the enormous popularity of the iPhone and the phenomenal success of the iPod, anything handheld from Apple seems like a sure fire hit."

    so I wasn't all that wrong.

    still. you are c)a Mac Fanboy

    that's based on the fact that you clearly follow the Mac Rumor's "Rumors of Apple gunning to enter the handheld games market have been circulating for a while," (I am good at quoting ey ;))

    go on. call me d) a tit? ^^

  • gingerlink #68 4 years ago

    "I think they started off badly with the Xbox itself: blood and breasts. This alienated it immediately to a lot of consumers around Europe, and they never got over that. The brand image never went away. And although Halo 3 is a big game, it just emphasises again what the Xbox is all about

    With cortana and the minimal amount of blood? or am I missing something?

  • Dizzy #69 4 years ago

    "If you want to talk about "serious" gaming getting fucked in the ass.. try us PC gamers.. where the fuck is our love? "

    As a PC gamer AND a console gamer I have no complaints. PC games have always complemented console games IMHO. In the time of the Megadrive only consoles could do sprite games well. Now my PC is a killer machine for online games (and we have some GREAT ones on PC) and RTS games. Why are PC gamers always complaining?

  • Codger81 #70 4 years ago

    "@sanctusmortis
    I read all that as "Xbox will struggle because we say so". Casual gamers are to the industry what casual drinkers and smokers are to off licenses - not as good a source of income as the less casual, more regular/addicted kind"

    80/20 rule. Although the Wii is making a shed load of profit due to the margins, the actual attach rate is supposed to be fairly low.

  • Les #71 4 years ago

    "I thought that MS had been in the green for at least the last two or three quarters? Pretty much from Halo 3's launch onwards?"

    Accounting profit is something else than actually making money in the business sense (return on investment). Development of 360 cost MS billions. Their division started to make some money two quarters in a row (don't know about the one after that) after the Halo 3 release but that was almost two years after release. Even without taking time value of money into account, those profits don't weigh up to the initial expenses.

    Furthermore Windows games also contributed to those profits. For reasons that should be clear MS has little to gain by giving investors full insight into the performance of the xbox activities.

    "Surely that should speak to the masses."

    Maybe it should but it sure as hell doesn't...

  • L42yB #72 4 years ago

    OK wait...

    1) So the 360 is in trouble because it hasn't appealed enough to the casual market...

    2) The Wii is fucked because it hasn't appealed enough to the hard core market...

    3) And Sony are gonna make the most cash cos of all the awesome games that people are gonna buy by 2011...

    Sheesh! That whole story sounded like a huge steaming load of bulshite.

    1) The 360 pwns USA, and will continue to do so. It also has the highest attach rate and all the best games, and it doesn't look like thats gonna change any time soon.

    2) The Wii always was and still is gonna make the most money this generation. No question. They have targeted their market very well and are absolutely minting it.

    3) Sony have a very sad and crappy group of exclusive titles and still get the poorer side of multi format ports. The only thing that is going to save Sony this generation is their Blu Ray player, not their games.

    There, now who wants to pay me for being a better analyst?

    :)

    EDIT: corrected some spelling :)
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 15:57

  • coastal #73 4 years ago

    "The trouble with Xbox 360 is it hasn't managed to shake off this urban, irreverent adult male feel"

    yes, the same adult male market that buys the 99.99% of all games.

  • Les #74 4 years ago

    "Casual gamers are to the industry what casual drinkers and smokers are to off licenses - not as good a source of income as the less casual, more regular/addicted kind."

    This is true for a one-on-one comparison (so one casual gamer versus one hardcore gamer). But casual gamers have the numbers advantage. They outnumber the hardcore to such an extent that as a group they spend more than the hardcore gamer group.

  • ps3owner #75 4 years ago

    I think bcolter is ignoring me now :(

    shame, thought he could teach me something about the MAC.

  • daedaloz #76 4 years ago

    @ Dizzy

    My main problem seems to be that almost every nice game that gets released, gets released on the consoles first.. and then maybe LATER.. ½ to a full year later.. PC gamers get a fucking port-over by some lazy ass developer.. think how cool and clean the game COULD have been.. if only it was developed on the PC first :)

    Take GTA 4 for an example... this game started out on the PC... then they turned it all around and now it gets released ONLY on consoles and MAYBE on PC... granted, I have GTA 4 for my PS3.. and it kicks ass.. but seriously, why does PC gamers have to wait? It's just not fair... and please save the piracy thing for later.. because Xbox360 is way more pirated than PC games ever will be.
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 15:59

  • bengray66 #77 4 years ago

    I often wonder, if there was only one console on the market, what would all the fan boys do with their time? Seen as most of them seem to spend most of their time slating the other console, rather than just happily playing on their own?
    Why is it that you even have to talk about the other console? If your so happy with your choice, why not just leave it at that?

  • penhalion #78 4 years ago

    Does it strike no-one as strange that these comments are coming from a former Sony man?

    As an owner of all three consoles I don't see any evidence that trying to appeal to the casual market is anything but good. Do they think Sony are also doomed now because they are appealing to the casual market with the likes of singstar and buzz?

    I think it's high time EuroGamer started questioning these analysts about just how they are coming to these conclusions instead of blindly printing them for the shock value. Maybe it's time these guys were put on the spot to justify their clearly incorrect conclusions. In over 4 years I have yet to see a correct prediction from these guys. If this were real business, they'd have been fired 10 times over by now.

  • Codger81 #79 4 years ago

    "bengray66
    I often wonder, if there was only one console on the market, what would all the fan boys do with their time? Seen as most of them seem to spend most of their time slating the other console, rather than just happily playing on their own? "

    It would be an open source collaboration, and it would be called 3DO, and no one would support it so no one would buy it.

  • johnnybrn #80 4 years ago

    Swam et al - I think you will find that a lot of x-bots are anything but myself included, I've owned a PS1 (loved it), PS2 (loved it)and PSP(meh). But the PS3 has tarnished any goodwil Ive had to the brand. Around 2003 I got an Xbox as as xmas present and loved it, it just did everything right (built in memory card, nicer graphics etc).

    But Sonys arrogance has put a lot of people off (HD gaming starts when we say it does, Rumble is last gen) plus being shafted because we are in Europe etc.

    But this generation the hard-core market belongs to the 360 as they have done everything largely right whereas Sony have relied on spin and reputation.

    I dont want to get into a pissing match because ultimately I will be getting a PS3 once its chepaer and has a better library. But the platform doesnt matter as long as the games are good


  • Les #81 4 years ago

    @ L42yB

    1) The 360 pwns USA, and will continue to do so. It also has the highest attach rate and all the best games, and it doesn't look like thats gonna change any time soon.

    Don't see them loosing out in the USA, agreed. But the highest attach rate is a symptom of not being able to break out of the hardcore market. In the end it's about total units of software sold and it doesn't look like they'll keep their lead over Nintendo and even Sony is closing in. Best games is nice for the gamers (though very subjective) but it doesn't help a platform holder much if people don't get their machine...

    2) The Wii always was and still is gonna make the most money this generation. No question. They have targeted their market very well and are absolutely minting it.

    Agreed.

    3) Sony have a very sad and crappy group of exclusive titles and still get the poorer side of multi format ports. The only thing that is going to save Sony this generation is their Blu Ray player, not their games.

    This one is quite subjective and because of the Blu-Ray factor hard to prove with numbers. In the end it's important for Sony to shift a lot of units and the software will follow. But it does look like the video games side has become the trojan horse to the Blu-Ray player...

  • PlugMonkey #82 4 years ago

    ROFL.

    Look at the XBOTS squirm.

    Swam: You are an idiot of quite magnificant proportions.

    But I for one am glad, I detest this casual market that they all seem to be scrambling for and the software devs shove out to please it. I'm a gamer so most of this casual crap that has only really surfaced halfway though PS2s life with singstar and buzz etc. has absolutely no interest for me.

    It really concerns me that talk is always of casuals now, at times lately it seems they want to move away from serious gamers. Sure there is a lot of money to be had and devs can make a killing putting average or simple games to please the casual masses but for the love of god don't forget the people who made your industry, us gamers (or "hardcore" gamers if you will).

    Bad09: You are wrong. This mystic casual/hardcore divide doesn't exist. It really, really doesn't. There's just games. And if you can't find a Wii game that you find utterly fascinating, then I would say you're not really much of a gamer, and certainly not a 'hardcore' one.

  • bad09 #83 4 years ago

    johnnybrn

    Well put!! Most 360 owners come from Xbox who in turn came from PS and so on and so....

    Idiots like swam/headbog etc just call you "Xbot" if you don't agree with their own view that PS3 is da best eva! (which it isn't by a long shot)

    I've been called an "Xbot" a few times by the SDF yet I love PS1/2 & PSP (PS3 "meh";). All you can do smile and back away nervously :)

  • monkie_king #84 4 years ago

    I think the ex-Sony guy is a little behind the times criticising 360 for being all about FPSes. Considering that KZ2 and Resistance 2 are two of the few big PS3 exclusives that haven't been cancelled. As was Haze until the reviews rolled in.

    Ultimately gamers will go wherever the games are, no-one is blindly loyal to a particular plastic box full of wires. In the future that might mean PS3, but for the time being 360 has better exclusives, better multiplatform titles and a better online experience. Sales numbers are neither here nor there really.

    edit: "ultimately I will be getting a PS3 once its cheaper and has a better library. But the platform doesnt matter as long as the games are good."

    ^^^ This. A hundred times this.
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 16:10

  • hobo57 #85 4 years ago

    it only hurts coz its all true...

  • keyboardmonkey #86 4 years ago

    @farticusmaximus

    settle down, you can't go spreading round things like that.

    I think sometimes gamers really don't understand quite how business works. If people take a good look at Microsoft's history they will realise that there is a damn good chance that MS will one day be the biggest console manufacturer.

    Most of you are probably viewing EG through IE (mmm how much money did IE originally make? Current market share possible 70%+ and earning MS a lot of money)
    It's no accident that most people use Windows as an Operating system.
    Anyone use MS Office? It didn't use to be the most popular office suite

    Well is EG going to contact MS to get a response to the analysts predictions?

    I also agree we should pick up some of the old prediction made by the industry analysts (i believe they said that the PS3 would be the fastest selling console, most powerful and out sell everything in it's first year)

    Well done to Sony for turning around a disastrous launch

  • bdaggers #87 4 years ago

    Getaway 3

    Red Alert 3

    DEAD on PS3 - as pointed out by Idiot Toys.

  • drumbaby #88 4 years ago

    I don't think there will be a working Xbox 360 left by then, so they may have a point.

  • Aloominum_man #89 4 years ago

    @ps3owner

    Since bcolter has done the sensible thing and put you on ignore, here's a tip from me instead:

    • it's 'Mac', not 'MAC'


  • ps3owner #90 4 years ago

    @Aloominum_man

    thanks. sorry for insulting your holy mac... whups Mac. better?

    :)

  • L42yB #91 4 years ago

    @Les

    While you are much fairer and more objective than I am, I think we agree with each other :)

    Maybe u should be the analyst... certainly do a better job than the bunch of morons in the article... I can't really be bothered with all that objective nonesense ;)
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 16:36

  • electrolite #92 4 years ago

    ""The trouble with Xbox 360 is it hasn't managed to shake off this urban, irreverent adult male feel"

    yes, the same adult male market that buys the 99.99% of all games."


    ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????

  • bad09 #93 4 years ago

    @ PlugMonkey

    A lot of gamers would disagree with you there! Like it or not there are 3 groups, people who do not really play many games (casual gamers) and people for who it is a hobby ("hardcore" gamers) and non-gamers I didn't make the terms but they've been here for a while.

    Trust me I've been gaming for many many years and the level of these games that are "designed for everyone" is increasing and has only really been around since the term "casual gamer" started around mid PS2 life. More and more they are all trying for the casuals and (with the Wii) enticing non-gamers. I have no problem with that as long as they don't forget those who game as a hobby and don't want childish party games, play with plastic musical instrument or karaoke.

  • miiiguel #94 4 years ago

    Anyway, MS are really a pain in the arse guys, and you bet they will not give up. If they ever get realy, realy desperate they'll buy Nintendo or Sony.

  • Aloominum_man #95 4 years ago

    @ps3owner

    no problem. glad I made your day by addressing a post to you.

  • Madafunkola #96 4 years ago

    @ monkeyking
    "no-one is blindly loyal to a particular plastic box full of wires"
    I wish you were right but the likes of swam and apologie force me to disagree with you.
    Chelsea could win every match they play next season, but an Arsenal fan will still say they are piss-poor. Unfortunately, some people will also do the same with consoles.

  • cyber_nicco #97 4 years ago

    Weren't analysts the ones that predicted that GTA IV was going to be the thing to turn the tide for Sony?

  • Moonprince #98 4 years ago

    "Parker, who used to work for Sony"

    lol Eurogamer... lol...

  • SEVQA #99 4 years ago

    The points made regarding not being able to shake off the male orientated image are justified in my opinion! As I recall asking my now ex why she disliked my Xbox was purely because of the name which to her sounded too serious!

    I'm inclined to agree, the word Xbox is silly and not a word that emotes fun. I would expect dropping the name Xbox altogether would benefit Microsoft greatly in regards to attracting the female market.

    As at present if I’m not mistaken doing a 360 will return you to were you started!

    Genius!

  • Les #100 4 years ago

    "It's no accident that most people use Windows as an Operating system."

    No, that was brought to be by MS backstabbing IBM. Still an achievement but not really one to be particularly proud of. And of course by later on preventing PC manufacturers from shipping their PCs with another OS by threatening to not licensing Windows to them at all. Not exactly conduct beneficial to consumers...

    Same goes for Office. By porting their Mac portfolio to Windows (and not updating the Mac originals for a few years) while withholding information from the competition so that they couldn't make proper Windows applications of their own, they cornered the office market (IBM sleeping helped as well).

    One could say though that it's not an accident that the Windows market share is declining now that alternatives are finally becoming available.

    As for the IE market share, it's a telling sign that it's only 70% while 95% of PCs come equipped with it. A significant amount of people actually wants to take the hassle of installing an alternative.

    "If people take a good look at Microsoft's history they will realise that there is a damn good chance that MS will one day be the biggest console manufacturer."

    Because 'partners' and competitors have taken a look at MS's history, it's becoming more and more unlikely that they will one day become the biggest console manufacturer. MS is powerful because of all their money but they don't rule the techworld any more. The other parties in the business will work together to prevent MS from gaining as much power as they had in the mid-90s because MS has shown it will abuse that power. But that's a good thing for us consumers, it makes sure there's competition.

  • BadBoyBonner #101 4 years ago

    Surely the Xbox 360 will be the biggest selling console by 2012?

    If everyone who loves there 360 has bought 2 more replacement machines by then, I fully expect it to surge ahead!

  • bad09 #102 4 years ago

    cabbadgecase I disagree about loosing MS and Sony (well unless they buck their ideas up I wouldn't miss Sony now) but I agree Sega should come back. I would buy DC2 on day one even without games...hang on I've heard that somewhere!


    @ SEVQA

    "The points made regarding not being able to shake off the male orientated image are justified in my opinion! "

    Not to me, I got my girlfriend a Wii last September after she'd had not even a month before she was eying 360. I got one for her last month and she is loving it. It's not image that's the problem it's getting many women to take the plunge with a serious console (no offense little Wii).

  • miiiguel #103 4 years ago

    The thing is, if MS wasn't the BIG company with loadsa money, this verbosity would never happen + if 360 was is fact a "disaster" this wouldn't happen too.

    exmaples: Ninty Cube performance was pathetic, I never heard Ninty was doomed, and it was their last console and shit.
    Also, no one talked about Xbox 180 with this "passion", I wonder why ? Maybe because it was never a threat ?

  • ghearoid #104 4 years ago

    "blood and breasts"!



  • yashin #105 4 years ago

    Nintendo made the DS and the Wii kings on the back of two very good titles designed to promote a unique interface (Brain Traning and Wii Sports). Very few of the games that followed on those platforms were really very good, but it didn't matter, the marketing juggernaut hit the mainstream press and despite the inferior tech-to-price ratio, the DS massively outsold the PSP and the Wii comfortably outsold the PS3/360. Who new that casual gamers would prefer touching and pointing at things than twiddling with a 16-button controller?

    Me, I scarcely touch my DS or Wii, preferring the style of 'traditional' games on the PS3/360.

  • monkie_king #106 4 years ago

    Touching and pointing at things: what's not to like?

  • mazk #107 4 years ago

    I'm increasingly becoming tired of Eurogamer's pandering to the console war loving children who obviously must frequent this site. All your guys credibility is being crumbled away with this utter garbage, at least in my eyes. Every time I log on these days it seems like there's some irrelevant news story about the foibles of one console or the other, not to inform but just to start another round of pre-pubescent willy-waving.

    This article isn't quite as bad as the really in-detail frames per second comparisons of GTAIV a week after everyone had bought it (which soon disappeared), but it's still meaningless twaddle (that have been regurgitated over and over) written to incite some kind of flame war.

    It saddens me that what I once considered to be the most mature and interesting games website has degenerated into using these Daily Mail-esque tactics to cause controversy and therefore create website hits.

    I know traditionally Q2 is a frankly awful time for videogame news, even more so now that E3 is in july, but it's still no excuse for the decrease in quality of the content of this site.

    Come on Kieron, Tom and Co. Sort it out!
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 16:41

  • BadBoyBonner #108 4 years ago

    Me and many of my friends have jumped ship from the PC to the Xbox 360 - and still can't get over that the center of our gaming world costs less than half the price of a decent PC graphics card. For me the 360 is right up there with the PS1, Snes, Pc Engine, Amiga and Spectrum.

  • mikeck #109 4 years ago

    @bdaggers

    Red Alert 3 has not YET been scrapped. They have stopped working on it for the time being, nobody has said why nor confirmed if they're going to up tools again on it, but it's not totally dead yet.

  • PlugMonkey #110 4 years ago

    @bad09: I'm sure a lot of gamers would agree with you, but I think they're largely wrong as well. Games companies are going after the 'casual' market because that's where there is currently most growth. I don't see why this is going to mean them stopping making 'hardcore' games. I suspect there may be a window in the market for another GTA at some point. That doesn't seem to have done too badly.

    What I massively disagree with is statements like this:

    "Trust me I've been gaming for many many years and the level of these games that are "designed for everyone" is increasing and has only really been around since the term "casual gamer" started around mid PS2 life."

    So, 'casual gaming' started around the midpoint of the PS2's life? Wow! Your games playing experience must go all the way back to Sony's invention of the home games console in 1994! Seriously though, ALL games used to be for everyone. My parents will sit and play PacMan for hours. Is this new scourge of PacMan going to destroy 'proper' gaming? If some games start returning to the basic idea of simple fun that everyone can enjoy, then that can surely only be a good thing. More people playing more games is surely a positive sign, not a harbinger of doom.

    And I also notice you sniffily dismiss the entire Guitar Hero, rhythm action line of games, which is interesting. You have no interest in one of the most pure, in-the-zone, reflexive game experiences of recent times. Which apparently makes me 'casual' and you 'hardcore'. It's all very odd, and complete and total nonsense.

  • Bumhug360 #111 4 years ago

    "Microsoft did have one smouldering champion at the session. When the panel began criticising Sony and Microsoft for making too many different models of their consoles"

    Does this signel the end of the SKU buzzword?

  • yashin #112 4 years ago

    @ monkie king
    Touching and pointing at things: what's not to like?

    Exactly, we all love a good stroke/poke every now and then.

    But when Sony and Microsoft conceived of the PS3 and 360, there was no casual market to speak of, no one had demonstrated that you could sell £30 titles to grannies in Cheshire. The hip urban male remained the target demographic for both of those machines.

    Having been trounced in its previous outings, but retaininga strong brand, Nintendo took a gamble that it could recreate the success of the DS selling a rebranded GameCube bundled with a unique controller.

    With the benefit of a delayed release, Sony tried to shoe-horn in the half-baked six-axis controls at the last minute, but the die was already cast with its over-priced home-cinema/hardcore gamer hybrid.

  • SEVQA #113 4 years ago

    @bad09

    Why did you buy your girlfriend a Wii first? is it because you’d thought she would like above and beyond the other consoles?

    Which I’m afraid brings back the debate of image! As it took your girlfriend a month on Wii to be interested in a 360 with fairness about a month is how long it takes to get bored of the Wii’s casual shovel ware.

    Both these consoles were bought by you a male which won’t help sales figures one bit in relation to the female market! I want to know what opinions female gamers have, and none gamers for that matter.

    For my female friends that I know who don’t play games I know what their first choice would be and that’s a Wii and/or a DS as for the one’s who do (not many) its DS and Wii all the way! (image is everything, I think Sony pointed that out to us long ago!)

  • subtlesnake #114 4 years ago

    "And for how long are they in the console business? More than 6 years, and they have to count the time they've made profit in quarters?? Sooner or later they're going to realize it's just a waste of money"

    They made a huge loss on the Xbox because they couldn't get the price of the system down fast enough, as they didn't own the hardware IP so were basically screwed by the hardware manufacturers (which is what the dispute with Nvidia was about).

    This time around they've adjusted the price of the system relatively little: the Xbox had a $100 drop to $199 only the holiday after launch, where as we're now two holidays after launch and have had only a $50 cut in the US, to $349. On top of that Microsoft now own the hardware IP, so their component costs should be significantly less. What this means is that they should at least be breaking even on the hardware, and with the huge mark-up on accessories and impressive software sales (which will only improve as the user base grows), they're in an ideal position to make back the money they've lost so far.

    The fact that they made a small profit last quarter ($89 million) with basically no major software titles, shows you how strong a position they're in. Why would they give up when they're finally in a position to make good on their years of investment in the Xbox brand?

  • General_Zod #115 4 years ago

    Well I reckon Microsoft and Sony are not in good shape.

    Everyone is pointing out that MS have had three profitable quarters, how many quarters have been unprofitable? Also dont forget the $1 billion RROD repair bill they wrote off in 2007 and the $4 billion they lost on the XBox and the development cost of the 360, they still have a huge way to getting back to black.
    Microsoft did not get where it is today by running unprofitable divisions, shareholders dont like them you see. One day they will have a meeting and say"Is this XBox business worth it?". I only hope things get a lot better before then.

    Sony have had a disastrous release for the PS3, they are only just now getting on their feet. How they managed to cock everything up so much is beyond me.

    Although you can argue about the wii and DS you have to admit that Nintendo is by far the most clever and successful business. The amount of money they have made astounds me.

  • LetsGo #116 4 years ago

    FACT - PS3 WILL sell more WORLDWIDE than the 360 by the end of this gen.
    FACT - MS WILL get closer to Sony this gen in terms of console sales but wont beat them.

    Thats it. END OF STORY!

  • miiiguel #117 4 years ago

    General_Zod, I stongly doubt that MS (and its shareholders) decide to throw all their successfull IP's in the trash bin. They "gave" the extra 1 year warranty because they wanted to, nobody forced them.

  • Drogul #118 4 years ago

    Looking at upcoming games, the picture seems the same as last year. The only reason to buy a ps3 right now is MGS4 which is not an AAA title, great game indeed, but not AAA. So this year will end and PS3 exclusives are a f*****g joke, yet I see titles coming to 360 like Too Human, AoC, GoW2, etc. Simply put it this way: 360 has better games by far. Ohhh its only shooters, ok then buy yourself a Wii, because PS3's good titles are all shooters.

  • chrisjm #119 4 years ago

    'FACT - PS3 WILL sell more WORLDWIDE than the 360 by the end of this gen. '

    hardware, yes

    software? im not as sure.

  • bad09 #120 4 years ago

    @ PlugMonkey

    Yes this whole casual gaming thing, ie. targeting people who don't play many games or none at all has only surface since mid PS2 life. Sure your parent play pacman but is pacman targeted at people who don't play games?

    I see where you are coming I do, but you are not seeing that there is a clear change in direction which is increasing as time goes on. As I said I'm not against this and course there are games for the hardcore but with the success of the Wii it does seem they are more interested in these new markets rather than serving gamers who paid their wages for decades.

    Come of it Plugmonkey I've played GH3 it's got casual all over it mate, fun don't get me wrong (although I would not pay £70 just to pretend I'm playing a instrument), but casual all the same.

  • monkie_king #121 4 years ago

    Interested to learn that casual gaming was only invented in the last 5 years ...

    /must have dreamt about Tetris and The Sims being two of the biggest selling franchises of all time.

  • Codger81 #122 4 years ago

    " Bumhug360

    Does this signel the end of the SKU buzzword?"

    Suggest you figure out what a buzzword is first.

  • bad09 #123 4 years ago

    monkie_king you're missing the point also, yes Tetris and Sims sold well and people liked them but those games were stroke of genius which people could play with ease that is completely different to the way things are now with casual gaming.

  • bad09 #124 4 years ago

    @ farticusmaximus

    Oh of course I wasn't talking about the difficulty, more the concept in general that's very casual focused!

  • General_Zod #125 4 years ago

    @miiiguel

    I think you will find the cutomer complaints and bad reputation they were getting forced them to. Microsoft did not do it out of the generosity of their hearts, companies dont give away $1 billion dollars because they want to appear nice.

    Who said they would chuck away IP's? I would expect them to continue as a software house (surprisingly) if they decided hardware wasnt their thing. Like I was saying the games and entertainment division are deep, deep, deep in the red. If things really dont start picking up for them what is going to happen?

  • Bumhug360 #126 4 years ago

    @Codger81

    buzz·word (bzwûrd)
    n.
    1. A word or phrase connected with a specialized field or group that usually sounds important or technical and is used primarily to impress laypersons: "'Sensitivity' is the buzzword in the beauty industry this fall" ADWEEK.
    2. A stylish or trendy word or phrase.

    Fairly much sums up the over used and wrong use of SKU over the past few months on gaming sites, or are you so despereate for an argument on the internet you are going to dispute it?

  • KayJay #127 4 years ago

    Why didn't this get a "Sticky" on the front page like the bit of news about the 360 GTA Sales..?

    I almost missed it ;-)

  • monkie_king #128 4 years ago

    bad09, I'd respectfully disagree with you there. The GameBoy sold millions of units as "the Tetris machine", it was a game with universal appeal and was in a lot of ways the Brain Training of its era. And the Sims was a game largely played by people on the family PC, people whose previous gaming experience extended to Solitaire and Minesweeper. Both titles also caught a big chunk of the female demographic, as well as the over 30s -- very much the casual market. I didn't pick those two examples at random.

  • Codger81 #129 4 years ago

    "Bumhug360

    Fairly much sums up the over used and wrong use of SKU over the past few months on gaming sites, or are you so despereate for an argument on the internet you are going to dispute it?"

    Err, SKU is standard term used in supply chain management. All physical products are SKUs irrespective of what they are. SKU isn't a buzzword, but it's unneccessary usage puts it vaugely within the remit of one.

    So I'm disputing it as you clearly can't tell the difference, but from your response it sounds like you're itching for an argument anyway.

  • smelly #130 4 years ago

    Im sorry but The 360 *IS* shit.

    But I'll clarify that.

    I've had THREE (?!!?) RROD on my consoles, each one has been replaced (so i'm on number 4).

    Recently I bought my favourite pc game (COD4) for the 360 for the comfort of playing on my tv from my sofa.. And I'm having the FUN experience of a game which cant be played for more than 20 minutes without it crashing. In fact i've yet to manager more than 2 online matches in a row without a crash. I *SHOULDNT* have to put up with this sloppyness on a games console! That's for pc's!

    Admitidly i know i've been spoiled with nintendos quality control over the years.. but i wasnt expecting games to crash THIS OFTEN!

    It's the worst excuse for a games machine i've ever had.

    EDIT: And before everyone jumps down my neck calling me a fanboy.. Before you start name calling.. Tell me i'm wrong.. Tell me i HAVENT had 3 RROD's .. Tell me that COD4 doesnt crash more often on the 360 than it does on the pc.. etc etc

    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 17:29

  • miiiguel #131 4 years ago

    "I think you will find the cutomer complaints and bad reputation they were getting forced them to. Microsoft did not do it out of the generosity of their hearts, companies dont give away $1 billion dollars because they want to appear nice."
    er... yes they want to appear nice, as you said earlier in your statement. However what I tried to say is that I find it odd to think that a company that "gave" 1 billion dolars to their customers is not commited to the buisness.

    "Like I was saying the games and entertainment division are deep, deep, deep in the red."
    I don't know about that, what I do believe is they aren't going to go away soon..., look at Zune..., way worse saleswise than Xbox and they keep on coming. Those stories that MS is droping entertainment are fairly old by now, but it hasn't happened.

  • stepneg #132 4 years ago

    Sounds like the Wii and 360 are fucked and the future of gaming is PS3, time to find a new hobby then!

  • smelly #133 4 years ago

    @miiiguel:

    If microsoft hadnt "given" that $1 billion towards repairs.. then as soon as i got a RROD which they WOULDN'T replace - i'd have told them to stuff it and bought a ps3 at that very moment.

    (and i'm sure many others would've done too..)

    20 million 360 sales doesnt look like much when 15 million of them are broken beyond repair.

  • smelly #134 4 years ago

    >Sounds like the Wii and 360 are fucked and the future of gaming is PS3

    That was kinda inevitable since day one.

    But I fully expect msoft to announce a new machine by the end of the year to counteract this happening.

  • miiiguel #135 4 years ago

    "20 million 360 sales doesnt look like much when 15 million of them are broken beyond repair."
    I can live with that, mines are whithin the 5 million "good" ones. I'm sorry for you though (lightly).

    "But I fully expect msoft to announce a new machine by the end of the year to counteract this happening. "
    oh please yes! make it happen!

  • subtlesnake #136 4 years ago

    "Like I was saying the games and entertainment division are deep, deep, deep in the red."

    And they're pulling themselves out of it, one quarter at a time.

  • bad09 #137 4 years ago

    @ monkie_king

    No, I know you didn't pick them at random, I would have excepted GTA also :)

    But what I'm trying to say is it's only since you saw the likes of singstar and buzz on PS2 and then the success of the new direction Ninty took that this is a group of people that is aggressively targeted, there is a big difference from game ideas which hit a cord with the masses and games being targeted to casual/non gamers as they are now, and it's on the increase.

    I repeat though, I have NO problem with it as long as the is balance. As I said before right now I think they all are more interested in tapping these new markets than "hardcore" gamers.

  • bad09 #138 4 years ago

    smelly in all my months of abuse on online COD4 I've not had one single crash on 360 or had any problems online (except Xmas but that was Live!)

    Not to call you a liar on your 3 RRODs but I always take those with a pinch of salt. I only ever hear these horror stories on the net I've yet to actually met someone in person who has had the RROD more than once, if at all.

    I wonder how big Sony's Disk read error would have been if we all had the internet then................
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 17:51

  • smelly #139 4 years ago

    >Not to call you a liar on your 3 RRODs

    yes it's true! I've even got the 3 "free" gold membership cards to prove it.

    And i'm not 100% sure the replacement i got back last week is working properly if it's true what you're telling me about COD4 either..

  • TurboBailey #140 4 years ago

    I hate threads like this. Hypothetical bullshit.

    Fact - the 360 is a hardcore gaming machine. Appeals to adult men. I dont know a single girl that shows any interest in it.
    Fact - The Wii is a casual gamers machine - women love it. Family's love it. Its cheap and novel.
    Fact - PS3 is a good gaming machine with excellent Movie playback. Definately the most desirable console in my circle of friends.

    I have access to all 3 machines in my flat. Ironically the 360 has the most games for it. But the ps3 gets played more on. The wii is just used for partys and piss ups.


  • smelly #141 4 years ago

    What i found really interesting is when i sent my last one off for repair, the woman in the courier shop took one look at the box and said (without even looking at the postage sticker) - "is this a xbox for repair then?"

    After talking to her (and failing to chat her up) she told me that they so many of those boxes of that shape and size EVERY DAY that it gets obvious what it is just by lookign at it..

    She even showed me a pile of boxes she had behind the counter ready to be shipped off which was "todays shipment".

  • TitusCrow #142 4 years ago

    as a mature gamer i am past all the fanboi crap since like 85 - ( when the c64 pwned the zx spectrum! :p ) the new gen ( wont say HD gen because this is spin ) started with many claims that were way over the top from both companies im afraid. gamers expectations were built up to the sky and perhaps we all wanted to believe these claims too.
    the simple fact is that the consoles could not and can not keep a decent frame rate at 60fps at full HD with "next gen" graphical fidelity. This is a worrying fact and rubbishes the claims of both sony and MS, both visions proved to be over optimistic the hardware was rushed out by both in a miopic and downright foolish way without testing for stability, reliability and programability on most parts.
    MS opperating on the assumption that a year head start to build up a user base, was worth any of the back end risks that might come back to bite them, sony looking way into the future instead of delivering for the 2000's infrastructure of broadband and digital medium, and making gamers pay for services in the console price, they cant use / get the best of yet and might not even if the console was released this xmas..
    maybe for the next round they should both concentrate on less hype and just say we'er not going to give you a console that is the all singing dancing crack of the world we will give you a reliable console that doesnt over heat and doesnt have features that you wont need for 5 years or more - we are going to give you a console that plays great games at a great frame rate and at a reasonable price...
    it could work you know. consoles built like 1979 saabs ( they fking last! ) and made to take advantage of the tv and bb we have during the consoles lifetime.
    oh and as to cassual gamers, they dont stay casual for long thats all the way we get into this stuff, we think this game is cool and if it only was 3 times as big and had that feature and this feature it would be better, then suddenly we realise that there are games out there like that and we want them and to play them we need more skills and practice - suddenly you are a full hardcore gamer.
    on the other hand if its not meant to be then you play at somones house maybe dither with getting a system and even get one, find u dont have the time or inclination to get into this stuff right and thats as far as you go, im not sure why this kind of person would turn a profit or be a worry for the console lords right now but maybe somewhere i missed something ( possible was trying to complete a game durijng that class :) )

  • smelly #143 4 years ago

    @TruboBailey:

    "Fact - the 360 is a hardcore gaming machine. Appeals to adult men. I dont know a single girl that shows any interest in it. "


    I'd disagree that's a "fact"... It appeals to teenage adolescent boys. For proof, plug in your headset during a match on live..


    "Fact - The Wii is a casual gamers machine - women love it. Family's love it. Its cheap and novel. "


    I'd disagree with that too. That's what the MARKETING men want you to think.. but show me ONE family that actually plays wii together (or indeed many women).. My main experience seems to indicate most wii owners are either adults (usually men) who have grown up with nintendo or children.

  • bad09 #144 4 years ago

    @smelly

    Damn bad luck mate! I'd probably be pissed at 3 but only once for me since launch! As I said I wasn't calling you a liar but so many people come out with 3,4,5 I've even heard a 9 before :)

    Yeah your COD4 problem sounds suss mate I 'd ring MS and see what they say

  • smelly #145 4 years ago

    >Yeah your COD4 problem sounds suss mate I 'd ring MS and see what they say

    Yeah.. i'm gonna try a few more games over weekend .. if it's a console fault (thus needing my FORTH replacement) the minute it gets back i'll be putting it on ebay.

  • General_Zod #146 4 years ago

    @miiiguel

    What would have been the effect of MS not offering to fix the RROD consoles? Are you honestly saying MS wrote off that $1 billion because they felt really, really bad about releasing a sub standard manufactured console and wanted to do their customers a big favour? I think you will find the average 360 owner does not see Microsoft as being nice for the extended warranty but more along the lines of it being a necessity.

    Yes Microsoft is committed to the business now I never claimed otherwise. What I did say was one day a decision is going to be made about whether breaking into the hardware market was worth it for them, has it met their predicted profits and future growth and profit predictions.
    Microsoft has made zero money in 7 years off the XBox, how much life does the 360 have left in it before they have to spend a couple of billion on the 720 and the cycle continue again?

  • Xerx3s #147 4 years ago

    "yeah they are but the world is saturated with them imo."

    The world is saturated with all genres. Especially casual games.

  • TurboBailey #148 4 years ago

    @ smelly

    Okay - should change that to adult men and smelly american teenagers. (missed that point cos im never on LIVE)

    Regarding the Wii.... Well my family own a wii and play it fairly often. 2 of my uncles and their family have Wii. Loads of women i know have either a wii or a ds. especially the oriental ladies... they love em. On the other hand, I only know 1 adult male with a Wii - and thats my flat mate.

    I can only speak from my viewpoint.

  • bad09 #149 4 years ago

    @ TurboBailey

    To be honest there are quite a few girl gamers out there playing 360. My girlfriends one, I've even played a few online and of course you have gamerchix.

    Admittedly not enough but there are some out there!

    As for Wii I would say, children and Ninty fans more than families but they're getting there with WiiFit etc.
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 18:07

  • miiiguel #150 4 years ago

    General_Zod, what I said is that you contradicted yourself by saying "MS don't spend 1 billion just to look good" and then you said "MS image would suffer if they didn't...", I mean you can't bash them for and for not...

    "how much life does the 360 have left in it before they have to spend a couple of billion on the 720 and the cycle continue again? "
    Not much, I hope, lol! The poorer gamers have to excuse me but I'd love a Xbox 720, and realy, realy hardcore and baddass and all that naughty shit. Sorry...
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 18:08

  • PlugMonkey #151 4 years ago

    Bad09: "Yes this whole casual gaming thing, ie. targeting people who don't play many games or none at all has only surface since mid PS2 life. Sure your parent play pacman but is pacman targeted at people who don't play games?"

    I'm sorry, but that really is just absolute nonsense. There have always been games targeted at people who don't play games. Who do you think PacMan was aimed at if not people who didn't play games? Back then, the only market was people who didn't play games.

    "I see where you are coming I do, but you are not seeing that there is a clear change in direction which is increasing as time goes on. As I said I'm not against this and course there are games for the hardcore but with the success of the Wii it does seem they are more interested in these new markets rather than serving gamers who paid their wages for decades."

    You see, I'm not sure you do. During the PlayStation era games got massively more complicated and in depth, which went along with a huge expansion as the market grew from kids to adults with more money, but this expansion happened at the expense of people who didn't want this level of complexity - and ultimately it's a bit of a limited market. All the Wii is doing is going back to gaming basics. I applaud and welcome this as it means I can get to play a wider, more interesting range of games; but the concepts these games are selling on certainly aren't new, and they sure as hell pre-date the Playstation 2 by the minor margin of a decade or two.

    "Come of it Plugmonkey I've played GH3 it's got casual all over it mate, fun don't get me wrong (although I would not pay £70 just to pretend I'm playing a instrument), but casual all the same."

    And this is the thing that drives me INSANE: "but casual all the same". What a load of pretentious, sneery bollocks. If it's fun, who gives a flying mother if it's 'casual' or 'hardcore' or any other pointless label. It's not like we're talking about a game with no depth. Guitar Hero has universal appeal for those who aren't too unbalanced by the chip on their shoulder. Have you tried the later Guitar Hero songs on expert? Ikaruga's got nothing on it, that's for sure.

  • monkie_king #152 4 years ago

    smelly: the only time I've had COD4 crash was when they put out the map pack and the whole of Live went on the blink for 24 hours. If it's hanging on the matchmaking screens you may have some network weirdness, otherwise you have a knackered 360 I'm afraid.

  • Kengro #153 4 years ago

    If there's one group of assholes i don't trust a bit it's analyst and politicans, they are full of shit. Why even bother to print shit like this, let them go away quietly

  • miiiguel #154 4 years ago

    smelly for the times I read about your issues with RRoDs I think you're miscalculating that 3..., I think it must by 6 or 7 by now.

    You also seemed to have a grudge towards 360 users, however, must be said, you seem more polite nowdays.

  • timberwolf #155 4 years ago

    wii = gimic , xbox = overheat, ps3 = no good games yet

  • bad09 #156 4 years ago

    @ PlugMonkey

    "I'm sorry, but that really is just absolute nonsense. There have always been games targeted at people who don't play games. Who do you think PacMan was aimed at if not people who didn't play games? Back then, the only market was people who didn't play games."

    I was around (although a little young) when Pacman hit the ARCADES (not many non gamers in those), so we'll agree to disagree.



    "You see, I'm not sure you do. During the PlayStation era games got massively more complicated and in depth, which went along with a huge expansion as the market grew from kids to adults with more money, but this expansion happened at the expense of people who didn't want this level of complexity - and ultimately it's a bit of a limited market. All the Wii is doing is going back to gaming basics. I applaud and welcome this as it means I can get to play a wider, more interesting range of games; but the concepts these games are selling on certainly aren't new, and they sure as hell pre-date the Playstation 2 by the minor margin of a decade or two."

    You are right there, games did get more complex from the PS1 era onwards but I don't think this happened at the expense of people who didn't want this level of complexity. Even when gaming "grew up" people who were non-gamers looked down on gaming That attitude is only now really changing (thanks to Ninty) which is why all 3 in this gen are falling over each over for these new markets.



    "And this is the thing that drives me INSANE: "but casual all the same". What a load of pretentious, sneery bollocks. If it's fun, who gives a flying mother if it's 'casual' or 'hardcore' or any other pointless label. It's not like we're talking about a game with no depth. Guitar Hero has universal appeal for those who aren't too unbalanced by the chip on their shoulder. Have you tried the later Guitar Hero songs on expert? Ikaruga's got nothing on it, that's for sure."


    Mate You obliviously love GH so we could argue all night and neither of us would change our mind. Yes it has Universal appeal (i did say it was fun), but it's casual gaming at it's finest regardless of difficulty (casual games don't need to be easy).



    Edited by 2 at 06/06/08 @ 18:26

  • subtlesnake #157 4 years ago

    "Microsoft has made zero money in 7 years off the XBox, how much life does the 360 have left in it before they have to spend a couple of billion on the 720 and the cycle continue again?"

    Well, you wouldn't expect Sony to launch the PS4 for at least another 3 years (given that they're only 1.5 years in), and Microsoft have committed to supporting the 360 for another 5. Even after the 720 is launched, Microsoft should still be able to make profits off the 360, because its component costs will be very low, and the user base will be much larger - as with the PS2, which is still hanging in there, 8 years after its launch, and is making more profit for Sony than the PS3 is at the moment.

    Finally even if Microsoft isn't able to make back all their losses in this generation, why can't they finish things off in the next generation?

  • KD #158 4 years ago

    I've enjoyed my 360 and its been a good purchase in my own opinion just like my dreamcast was and happy i've had both so thats all that matters to me, looking forward to the ps3 when theres a better amount of games on it i want and a faster production time when they get the dev tools and techniques sorted so I couldnt care which one i end up liking more or how much cash the company lost on it. Some analyst aint gonna swing my view or some forum comment by someone i have never met, i will say i do like the comedy value on some tho.

  • daedaloz #159 4 years ago

    [link url=http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=_iYBmAVuBns
    ]http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=_iYBmAVuBns
    [/link]

    I rest my case.

    WiiLOL

  • stevencole7 #160 4 years ago

    The amount of money Xbox have lost, no other buissness could afford to run like this. But Xbox (or Microsoft) can afford to lose huge amounts of cash, as they hope to gain market share around the world and start making a profit. I think in the near future they will end up 3rd and Sony will probably, in time, overtake them in America too.
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 18:43

  • Vin #161 4 years ago

    Too bad the worth of the analysts, as they say in the land of bad dentistry and buggery, is total fucking bollocks.

  • Xerx3s #162 4 years ago

    It's funny how people seem to forget that ms has been making a profit for some time now on the 360 despite writing off a billion or so to the 3 year warrantee thing.

    Well that and ms might have a different agenda than just pure profits.Take a look at the HDDVD drive i.e.

  • bad09 #163 4 years ago

    daedaloz that was fantastic LOL!!!! :)

  • timberwolf #164 4 years ago

    its all about value for money... i think casual comes hand in hand with short. personally oblivion isn't big enough or deep enough to satisfy me as a gamer... so i lol at people applauding bioshock with it's 10 hour campaign.

  • niteninja #165 4 years ago

    Heres my take on it.
    Sony priced the ps3 to high at launch,MS lost customers confidence with poor hardware failures which they still cant fix.
    While Sony still keep the ps3 price point to high.
    MS fractured the market to much way to many xbox 360 models on sale now leads to confusion,Leaving stuff out that should be in the console in the first place wireless lan adaptor still 60 quid.
    Sony axed backwards ps2 games was a dirty trick.
    Nintendo makes a console that most of the games are free to play on flash websites.

  • stevencole7 #166 4 years ago

    Xerx3s

    Look at the bigger picture........ Microsoft have started to make a profit, but still have lost Billions and Billions as a business. The profit they have made, is a tiny dent into what they have spent over the years. It's a bit like me spending a Million pounds..............then make 20 quid over a few years.
    Edited by 2 at 06/06/08 @ 19:24

  • FladgeMangle #167 4 years ago

    I wonder, do the profits mention here account for the $1bn put aside to cover the cost of RROD replacements?

    The truth is the Xbox division is far from being in the black, it's just that they are no longer losing money on every console sold.

    It doesn't really matter where it ends up in this generation. If everybody who want's one buys one and there are still great games released for it. It's hardly going to become the next Gamecube or Dreamcast is it?

    I'm sure Microsoft aren't done yet and no matter what, there'll be another Xbox for the boys :o)

  • miiiguel #168 4 years ago

    "t's a bit like me spending a Million pounds..............then make 20 quid over a few years. "
    No offense m8, but hardly... lol. The BIG difference is that they can spend billions and like Xerx3s said they have an agenda beyond gamebox+mp3 player, and that is called Live.

  • GamesConnoisseur #169 4 years ago

    I am still suprised at a lot of biles against MS, as if they should never dare to challenge Sony who somehow has the god given right to be dominant force in gaming on this Earth?!

    Sure Sony did brills to break through the barrier and make gaming more mainstream, but their tendency to overegg PS2 and PS3 is something I felt unforgiveable and thankful they got their punishments for most of 2007. Still not treating European as well as they could have, where DualShock 3? Reason for the difference in PS3 SKU and value for US and Europe?

    MS cocked it up and they lost whatever reputation for reliability even if not deserved with current model revisions, but am thankful to them for giving me numbers hours with great hardcore gaming.

    I played Wii much far less than I do PS3 and still the most on X360. If MS depart from gaming it would be our loss such as people now laments for Dreamcast. But heck didnt they the same people who fell head over heel for PS2 at expenses of DC?! Resident Evil Code Veronica played and looked far better on DC than PS2!

    I agree that X360 will be in the third place but I would prefer for a more proportional share.

  • assache #170 4 years ago

    "The trouble with Xbox 360 is it hasn't managed to shake off this urban, irreverent adult male feel; so it hasn't gained traction in the more casual gaming markets of mainland Europe such as France, Spain and Italy, where it's stalled," said Parker. "And there are already rumours of Xbox 360 being delisted from certain retailers."

    Thank fuck! Who wants casual gamers anyway, go suck on a WII!

  • bad09 #171 4 years ago

    "But heck didnt they the same people who fell head over heel for PS2 at expenses of DC?!"

    "Resident Evil Code Veronica played and looked far better on DC than PS2! "

    Agreed on both counts, also did you notice SC2 looked at lot worse than the original DC one?

    / wipes tear away and morns his Dreamcast, good times, good times....

  • ronuds #172 4 years ago

    Oh those crazy analysts...never seem to have a clue what they're talking about. Pachter's my favorite because he's quoted all the time and you can tell the guy has never even played a video game, let alone is qualified to comment on them. This Cole and Parker are even worse because they're using nice a big words, but give no explanations for anything.

    Like, in what way has MS failed to capture the casuals? I haven't seem them push for the casuals too much with anything other than the Arcade model, so in what way are they failing so hard? I think this year they're trying more than ever with Banjo Kazooie and Viva Pinata 2, plus Fable 2. We've been hearing reports of the 360's demise for quite a while now. I guess along with the purported "year of the PS3", we'll have to keep waiting on the reports to actually come true. I have a feeling they may never do so because everyone's relying on last generation for proof or evidence of how this generation is going to end up, but it's really not that easy.

    Oh well, at least their complete lack of grasp on the market sparks some conversation.

  • stevencole7 #173 4 years ago

    Quote-

    "The BIG difference is that they can spend billions and like Xerx3s said they have an agenda beyond gamebox+mp3 player, and that is called Live."

    Don't forget Vista........
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 19:18

  • niteninja #174 4 years ago

    If MS does a new xbox say in a few years time it must learn.
    1,Dont rush to market to get an early lead,test your product hard before launch make sure it works
    2,One sku repeat ONE sku no extra rubbish example,play charge kits,wireless adaptor
    3,Free xbox live paying 40 quid a year to use a service which wont allow me to use full internet is a joke.
    4,Drop your big brother system allow developers to create large games for download allow people to use online email and youtube.
    5,More creative games instead of endless fps,have you seen a game like shadow of collosus on 360? no neither have I.
    6,Dont kill off your last console over night like they did with the original xbox.
    Rushing a product to market comes back and bites you in the arse in the future.

    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 19:12

  • electrolite #175 4 years ago

    @assache

    Microsoft, Sony and every other gaming company under the sun. Otherwise you finish up like Nintendo in the last gen. Or Microsoft in this one. Appealing to 'hardcore' gamers alone, who have in a lot of instances been outed as insular and conservative by the Wii, is a dead end

  • smelly #176 4 years ago

    "smelly: the only time I've had COD4 crash was when they put out the map pack and the whole of Live went on the blink for 24 hours. If it's hanging on the matchmaking screens you may have some network weirdness, otherwise you have a knackered 360 I'm afraid."


    Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    FFS.. it better not be or i'll cry.. I'm DESPERATE to play GTA4 (my machine took 6 weeks to be repaired this time.. takes forever over here thanks to the US postal system)



    "You also seemed to have a grudge towards 360 users,"


    Nope.. only ones which troll wii/ps3 threads.

  • smelly #177 4 years ago

    SERIOUSLY.. no-one else has a problem where the whole 360 locks up while playing COD4? I had 5 or 6 lock-ups in 2 hours of play last night?

  • ronuds #178 4 years ago

    To those of you thinking we won't see an xbox 720, don't get your hopes up.

    Let's say you were MS. Ok, you've spent 7 years in the console biz and have lost billions. After losing, losing and losing some more, you finally begin making a profit - and for 3 consecutive quarters (meaning, maybe the profits weren't just a fluke). Would you suddenly leave the business? WTF kind of logic is that, someone please explain? I think it's wishful thinking by the SDF.

    "Duh, so I've invested all this money in a product, duh, but when it starts turning a profit I'm going to give up on it! Woo hoo, I'm a retarded idiot!!!"

    That's not how a business makes money. They invest and in time hope to recoup the investment, plus turn a profit.
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 19:18

  • bad09 #179 4 years ago

    "Rushing a product to market comes back and bites you in the arse in the future. "

    We keep hearing this about MS but the thing everyone doesn't realise is that MS had no choice to rush release. Xbox came late and the PS2 was a huge success, as was PS1. To do anything the that dominance they needed to be first. Remember, at the time PS3 was due not too long after, it was only when they wanted to shoe-horn in Blu it got delayed.

    Sure it resulted in an embarrassing hardware rep but at the end of the day those problems are solved and MS stepped up and took their punishment, extended the warranty and took a huge beating to the wallet. Did Sony do the same with PS1 and PS2 which had their own problems? The other day talking on a thread here I found between me and two other people we'd gone through 12 PS1's!!! (3 for me, 5 for one guy and 4 for the other).

    So for me 3 PS1's and 3 PS2's as well (although my third, and slowly dying, PS2 was stolen from my girlfriend and not bought). Still on my first 360 though and although it did RROD it was picked up, fixed and sent back all for free. I really don't see the big problem some make of RROD

  • Calgon #180 4 years ago

    Let it never be said that Eurogamer are Xbox fanboys... theres no way they would have even give these people the time of day if theyd have been saying the same of Sony or Nintendo.

    Right first off Sony spent more than MS this gen... development costs are still alot higher too apparently.

    Second MS have been turning profit... oh right "not enough... not important"? Bollocks... did Les and his friends blag Eurogamer into a meeting pretending they were analysts?

    Third jasper is literally a couple of months away... it will mean 360s as reliable as PS3s at the very least you can quote me on that, noise is another matter hopefully theyve sorted it. Why does this matter? Maybe even the average joe is getting more clued up these days... the reliability issues did get exposure to the general public too but they were already slowing before then(word of mouth Im sure of it... everyone knows someone whos online atleast these days ect).

    This sounds the same paid for propaganda Sony spread about last gen... its bullshit; Sony are still 3rd place, theres one potential system seller in GT5, if that doesnt do it then they may eventually over take the 360 but not by a margin worth getting chuffed about... lets be honest here Sony have alot to make back too here... wheres their FUD? They cant afford to take even the same losses as MS let alone greater ones.

    PS3 is teh doomed... me is super smart analyst, totally professional, no guesswork or bias here move along.
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 19:29

  • Les #181 4 years ago

    "And they're pulling themselves out of it, one quarter at a time."

    Because of the time value of money it's too little, too late. I don't think MS will pull out. As its windows empire is slowly but steadily unravelling, they'll need something else to make money with. Apple's model (controlling hardware and software) turns out to be the better one. In their quest for easy profits MS became too much focussed on making sure there wasn't competition at all instead of creating products that customers would like best. It will be a gigantic struggle to overturn the company and it probably won't happen as long as the old leadership hangs around. Bill will be gone soon but Balmer's still there...

  • niteninja #182 4 years ago

    I was a fan of the 360 when I first got it,but 4 bust consoles in a year and then being told it was my fault for turning it on.
    Failure rates are at about 15 a week at my local indie,much lower than in the past but the sales have pretty much grounded, gta4 wasnt a system seller,almost everyone who got gta4 had a 360 to start with.
    I will say now the ps3 is the much better hardware but its still to expensive for the mass of people.
    As for a new chipset stoping failures didnt they say that last time?
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 19:37

  • smelly #183 4 years ago

    I cant believe my 4th 360 is apparently borked.. FFS!

  • Bremenacht #184 4 years ago

    I think Microsoft have done Ok this time around. What's wrong with that?

    [finds the win/lose arguments boring]

  • stevencole7 #185 4 years ago

    niteninja -

    Know how you feel.........I've gone through 6 (YES SIX) 360's. Shite hardware!

  • miiiguel #186 4 years ago

    les was raped by the evil windows (which is steadly doing something less).

  • Calgon #187 4 years ago

    I could have sworn Bill had already retired to do his gates foundation charity work full time?

    I dont trust Wiki much anymore either but I'll take their word he's still as high as no3 richest person in the world(even though the main article hasnt been updated and still states richest).

  • miiiguel #188 4 years ago

    My Wii broke! damn you smelly dude you must have jinxed it!

  • smelly #189 4 years ago

    @miiiguel: Why me?

    Besides didnt think you ever turned it on and it was gathering dust! :-)


    As for the COD4 issue.. i'm wondering if my game disk is fucked.. i'll try to return it for a new one..

  • miiiguel #190 4 years ago

    I can't stand the waiting thing, I'm out to get another. Later.

  • Les #191 4 years ago

    "It's funny how people seem to forget that ms has been making a profit for some time now on the 360 despite writing off a billion or so to the 3 year warrantee thing."

    People that don't understand economics shouldn't comment on them... ;)

    MS made a big loss the quarter before Halo 3, also caused by the 1 billion waranty write off. Normal practice will be that the write off has been calculated on the maximum cost of the warranty. But because not everyone will turn out to actually make use of it, each quarter after the write off MS will be able to add a little ' unrealised cost' as income to the P&L (same will happen with the billion dollar write downs the banks had to post because of the credit crisis; accounting rules are a poor indicator of actual performance).

    Then there's the fact that if you invest billions, make huge losses for two years and then start to make small profits afterwards, it will take you a long, long time to break even in absolute value. And it will be impossible to make a return if you take the time value of money into account.

    Small simplified example:

    If you spend 1 billion this year and the cost of investing the capital is 20% (not uncommon for a company like MS), you will need to earn $1.2 billion the next year, just to break even. If you'll only start to make money after two years, you'll have to make $1.44 billion, again just to break even.

  • VMerken #192 4 years ago

    At the very least, these analysts get tongues rolling and this may have an effect on the market. Which is exactly why they're being paid. As for me, as soon as I hear the word "analyst", I no longer need to continue to read.
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 20:01

  • Les #193 4 years ago

    "Xbox came late and the PS2 was a huge success, as was PS1. To do anything the that dominance they needed to be first."

    The PS2 came late as well and turned out to be a huge success... MS was so obsessed to 'do a PS2' that they didn't realise that creating a HD PS2 wouldn't be good enough for PS2 owners to actually move on. Sony was smart enough to include Blu-Ray so that at least it offered some benefit as opposed to the last gen besides just prettier graphics. And Nintendo was smartest of all and realised that it's hard to make people buy the same thing twice so built something they didn't have yet.

  • smelly #194 4 years ago

    "Xbox came late and the PS2 was a huge success, as was PS1. To do anything the that dominance they needed to be first."


    The ps2 came out late too.. Remember the dreamcast was available a year before, and was GREATLY technically better than the ps2.. But the ps2 did better.

    360 comes out a year before.. is technically better (seemingly looking at the games).. Does history seem to be repeating itself here?

    Hang on.. the 360 pad LOOKS kinda like a dreamcast pad... :-)

  • Calgon #195 4 years ago

    See more proof that Les talks bollocks... a HD PS2? What planet is this dickhead from?


    Even the Xbox offered incentives over the PS2 for those who knew what they were on about... like the first decent online service at the time in LIVE? Clearly more capable hardware?(these are bigger points than blu-ray IMO even without realising PS2 prooved that you dont always need to offer more or have the best hardware to "win";) Good PC ports?, Good FPS'... compared to other consoles there was no contest... what a utter douche he is... youd almost think Nintendo or Sega never existed the way he goes on. Sony's main strength has always been marketing, the rest was arguably not even as good as what the competition offered(with PS2 once their dominance was settled there was nothing could do to mess things up even if they tried, developers flooded in and did it all for them, this is why I beleive they are struggling this gen).
    Edited by 2 at 06/06/08 @ 20:23

  • ronuds #196 4 years ago

    I love the doom and gloom talk, but we all know that the main reason the PS3 is taking Europe and Japan is brand recognition. It's not because of blu-ray or anything else you'd love to believe, it's simple brand recognition. The problem Sony has in the US and UK is that MS and the XBOX are also strong names, and given the games library (the real reason to win a console war) for the 360 is so much stronger right now, that console is winning in those territories.

    The Dreamcast vs. PS2 battle was such a different story and to compare it to the 360 vs. PS3 is complete nonsense. Whatever Sony did to bring EA to their side basically decided that battle, it had nothing to do with the DC being in any way inferior to the PS2. The DC simply didn't have the games available. Believe me, I know...I had a DC!!!! Still do, actually.

  • bad09 #197 4 years ago

    True Les the PS2 did come late but MANY gamers shunned DC and waited for PS2, and let's be honest the Saturn wasn't Sega's swan song which may have also dented the image of the DC.

    MS came to late with Xbox and by the time the sorted out the controller and everything settled down talk was already about the next gen. I don't think they wanted to "do a PS2" as such but to stand a chance of breaking Sony's market dominance they had to be first out the door. For all intensive purposes mission accomplished. Although Sony's own arrogance helped a lot I think! :)

    The real problem is what now, they have a good base of "hardcore" gamers but the real numbers usually comes when the price goes down and casuals or families that buy the cheaper consoles for children come into play. With Ninty turning that business model on it's head and going in the opposite direction it's is hard to get into the family/casual markets which as you said has the bigger numbers than us "serious" gamers. They all want the same markets but Ninty did in a way that hit the casuals first which takes from MS and Sony markets down the line. That's why the desperate "look at us we can do casual to!" is coming from them now instead of later in the consoles life.
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 20:31

  • craziii #198 4 years ago

    lets wait till 2010 and see shall we, everyone just loves making useless conjectures.

  • bad09 #199 4 years ago

    Don't tempt fate smelly DC was my fav console last gen! :)

    To be honest like the DC last gen, 360 is the best console this gen for gamers IMO. I couldn't care less if it finished last, it's still given me the best gaming I've had in years! As long as MS stays in the the games industry I'm happy and I'll always give 'em some cash, they've done a great deal for gaming.

    Psst, Sega I'll give you some to if you want to make DC2.......

  • cyber_nicco #200 4 years ago

    "Tell me that COD4 doesnt crash more often on the 360 than it does on the pc.. etc etc "

    It doesn't. I played the heck out of COD4 and it never crashed once.

    /edit: removed pointless slander
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 21:04

  • ronuds #201 4 years ago

    @ MattDamon

    I know, but I like to pretend.

    He deleted his comment? He said I didn't understand anything...
    Edited by 1 at 06/06/08 @ 21:39

  • sneetch #202 4 years ago

    "asses"

    Spelling mistake or a subliminal commentary? I wonder.

    Apparently all consoles are doomed! Quick everyone fall back to the PC!

    That's probably doomed to, isn't it? Oh well, gaming was fun while it lasted. :(

  • Mudo #203 4 years ago

    Hyperbole and exaggeration ftw

  • kopykatt #204 4 years ago

    I read somewhere about MS making a profit for the last 3 months...WOW.
    Can I just remind you that the X-box brand has lost £millions (rumoured to be £billions) since its conception. The only reason Microsoft continue with the whole thing is because they want to rule the world (or something).
    It suceeds in the US because Americans are patriotic and suceeds here because we have a, recent, habit of copying the US.

  • Nige #205 4 years ago

    "and was GREATLY technically better than the ps2.. "

    ...now I know you're not for real.

  • Rodney #206 4 years ago

    havnt read all the posts yet but here are my first few thoughts.

    It seems these analysts are comparing Wii's success with 360/PS3 moderate success and coming to the conclusion that the hardcore game market is no longer viable and casual is the way forward.

    The thing is, the harcore market has been a viable business model for the last 10-15 years and its even bigger now than it has ever been.

    Personally, I hope we dont see a huge generational leap 'next-gen' because I dont believe this next-gen arms race cycle is sustainable as we have seen with the current gen. Graphics are already pretty good and near pixar quality in some instances. We dont need that much more, just slightly better with solid reliable hardware at an affordable price is what is needed next-gen.

    Next-gen should do what this gen failed to deliver. Each console should have only one SKU; reliable/good buildquality, should sit in and not look out of place in system rack under the telly; equiped with large HDD, should be powerfull enough to support 1080P at decent frame rate; BR player; wifi; wireless controllers with rumble & rechargable battery packs and charger kits; all at a reasonable price accessible to both hardcore and casual consumers.

    That is what I think next-gen should be. The bigger install base would also help the problem of big budget games needing greater sales to cover their development costs



  • cnlfailure #207 4 years ago

    Price point is irrelevent.
    Best games is irrelevent.
    Gamer opinion is irrelevent.

    The only thing that matters when it comes to console sales is how regular blokes - not those who religiously read the gaming press - can "sell" the woman on how to get one into the living room under the big ass TV that was bought for her to watch CSI on, so he can play FIFA on it with his post-pub mates on a Friday night.

    PS2 did it by being a DVD player and games console for the same price as a DVD player. Blu-Ray? Not sure, but it's being carried by Blockbuster which means the masses will notice it soon enough. The Wii does well cos, y'know, it's for the kids and they'll be active while playing it.

    The console war will not be won and lost by those who consider themselves gamers, it will be won and lost by blokes called Dave who convince their other half to let them have a [insert console].

  • Nige #208 4 years ago

    >The only reason Microsoft continue with the whole thing is because they want to rule the world

    Yes, and Sony are in it for philanthropy... it all makes sense now; that's why they want to own the content (Sony Pictures, Sony music and Sony games), the platform, the medium, and the display technology (moving onto OLED as they completely arsed up with LCD and Plasma)

    Tool.

  • smelly #209 4 years ago

    @Nige: "...now I know you're not for real."


    Yeah? Well lets see the ps2 do shenmue (or even soul calibur 2 as well as the dreamcast looked)

    Fact was, the dreamcast could produce better gfx than the ps2 despite being out a year earlier.


    And here we are.. 360 out a year earlier than the ps3.. and can produce better gfx than the ps3..


    (The fanboys wont be able to admit it, same as they cant admit the dreamcast had better pixels than the ps2)

  • Les #210 4 years ago

    "It suceeds in the US because Americans are patriotic and suceeds here because we have a, recent, habit of copying the US."

    I must say I'm a bit disappointed in the Brittish looking more and more like Americans (not just in this regard). I guess all those decades of binge drinking because of the pubs closing early are starting to show their effect... :p

  • Xerx3s #211 4 years ago

    Rodney: Hear hear.

  • Xerx3s #212 4 years ago

    Les: We'll see. iirc ms reduced production costs far enough as of last september so might be an alternative explanation. Truh is, neither you nor me nor anyone else here can comment on it as we don't have insight into their accounting specifics.

    My point is just that people are a bit to dismissive, sure the 360/ps3 won't be the biggest this gen, but if you need to be the biggest to have a viable part in this world then this is a rather grim world (especially if the biggest part is casual games).

  • Xerx3s #213 4 years ago

    A MS person once commented that MS's motives to get into the console industry where to halt the massive success of the PS brand because their analysts had predicted that the next version might break into the OS market, if that is true,they where on the money and it was worth the investment.

    But then that comment has never been proven. It most certainly sounds like a dirty ms tactic.

  • Bluetooth #214 4 years ago

    Three things -

    - former ex-Sony

    - Xbox 360 have done more for the casual gamer than any of the three; they're the one that has introduced the gaming industry to the online world through Live - at the time Nintendo was crying "ooh, gamers don't want online) and Sony had the most crippled service ever. They have done everything right except for a) the crappy Arcade releases of late; b) that onster DVD drive.... rrooarrrrr

    - he's an analyst. Who pays these guys for thinking up shit

  • zrerz #215 4 years ago

    as a once loyal PS3 owner, all I'd like to add is this, I've just got rid of my PS3 and bought myself an elite, why?, to play games!
    Sick to death now of all the lies, and broken promises from sony over everything, to repeat alan sugar from the tv show apprentice "they havn't got a bloody clue"

  • bad09 #216 4 years ago

    @ Swam

    come on then I'm bored so I'll have a laugh before I go out :)

    "And while you get to play Gears of War 2, which is exactly the same as Gears of War 1 but with outside bits"

    ? A great deal of gears 1 is outside, try playing a game before you knock it swammy boy, besides ALL sequels are more of the same with a few new things, kind of like your precious MGS,Killzone, RFOM, Motorstorm, GT, Tekken, Singstar, Buzz, Wipeout......... :)


    I get to play the most inovative game of the year Little Big Planet, and a massively upgraded sequel to Risistene: Fall of Man, along with exactly the same 3rd party titles you wil be playing. "

    The most inovative game of the year Little Big Planet? Have you played it or are you suckling the hype teat as you was with Haze before it turned out shite?

    Resistance? Your bragging about a sequel to a very mediocre launch title and have the cheek to knock the superior Halo 3?? Sometimes you really do make me laugh mate :)


  • bad09 #217 4 years ago

    So swam, if I'm an xbot what should I do with my PS2, PS3 and PSP? :)

    Edit - Nice way to avoid my points as well mate :)
    Edited by 1 at 07/06/08 @ 11:21

  • Kenshin001 #218 4 years ago

    "So swam, if I'm an xbot what should I do with my PS2, PS3 and PSP? :)"

    You should keep them and become a champion of Sony now we know the 360 is last year's console and only fit for spotty teenage boys.

  • bad09 #219 4 years ago

    @ Kenshin001

    Ha Ha no chance having experienced both I know for me 360 has the best games, best multiplatform, best online, best controller, and judging from the SDF the best community :)

    PS3 does blu better though.......

  • miiiguel #220 4 years ago

    I never understood the hate (or at least it seems) for younger people - the "15 years old" - Americans, and now males, and in a nutshell 360 users. I mean in what way did we hurt you ?

    Another question: if MS is so far out in what to do, care to give some expertise in matter and enlight us in examples of what could have been done?

    yet another: fair enough, you grew above the Sony umbrella, you like them because of an emotional thing (because it can't be because of PS3s games, sorry that one doesn't stick), but in what way the fact of MS has a console than many (or few, put as you like it) enjoy it so much bothers you ?

    As far as I'm concern you fellow Sony acolytes can go and have babies with Sony, I don't care, really.
    Edited by 1 at 07/06/08 @ 11:58

  • bad09 #221 4 years ago

    The funny thing is miiiguel who are the PS3s demographic.......

  • miiiguel #222 4 years ago

    And the "15 years old" bullying that appears here a lot, from the so called "mature", I guess you can be older but you're clearly either not mature enough to understand what is like to be "15 years old" or you're simply too old to remember. I remember how it's like, and it was a lot of fun, yes I could be an anoying brat like most of you also were, but I do remember, and I don't think they should all disapear from the gaming community. If one doesn't one to be "bothered" by "15 years old" maybe one should go read a book or play chess?

  • bad09 #223 4 years ago

    @ Miiguel

    I agree completely mate - but I have to admit a lot of the youngsters on Halo and now GTA4 (even though it's an adult game) are annoying. Having said that some of the "adults" are to.

    But then again that's just people rather than consoles I've played idiots on PS3 and PC as well.

  • miiiguel #224 4 years ago

    of course they are annoying, and they sure have an obnoxious high pitch voice, but... I mean, they're kids, ffs.

  • bad09 #225 4 years ago

    Yeah true and you have to be patient with children, but the constant "gay, gay you're gay" or "yeah nigga, take that nigga, nigga nigga!" or the ones that just make noises constantly do drive people (myself included) mad!

    All from yank land as well I'm my experience.....

    Makes me think of this, which someone on EG linked a while back :)

    http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=3atx7Jm-jvI

  • pokeken #226 4 years ago

    I haven't even bothered reading al of this post as whenever I see the words "analyst" then I just burst out laughing.....people who call themsleves analysts are just morons who want to be in that industry but are not capable enough so just pretend to "analyse" from afar. I would advise (lol) that you all ignore these pointless rantings as they are just basic outputs from their futile attempts at SWOT and PEST analysis....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  • Codger81 #227 4 years ago

    "evilfoxhound

    Uncharted
    UT3 (With mods!)
    COD4
    MGS4 (Next week)
    R&C Tools Of Destruction
    Burnout Paradise
    GTA4
    Motorstorm
    GRID
    GT5 Prologue

    If you don't like these games then you shouldn't bother buying a 360 either because you clearly don't like videogames"

    Oh, how I chortled.

  • Codger81 #228 4 years ago

    "Rodney

    Next-gen should do what this gen failed to delive ... BR player"

    Fraid I have to disagree as BR is a bastard product, that manages to be the PS3s biggest asset and weakness at the same time. The data volumes are huge but the read speeds are low. PS3 cross platform versions still generally have slower frame rates even with the installations.

    If they can sort out the read speeds I'd agree with you.

  • Codger81 #229 4 years ago

    "Les

    I must say I'm a bit disappointed in the Brittish looking more and more like Americans (not just in this regard). I guess all those decades of binge drinking because of the pubs closing early are starting to show their effect... :p"

    Funnily enough binge drinking and violence in the streets after the pubs chuck out isn't really found in the US that much.

  • miiiguel #230 4 years ago

    swam made a post without using the XBOT word! It's a mad world...

  • timberwolf #231 4 years ago

    it's all about the games and the price point.

  • bad09 #232 4 years ago

    @ swam

    LOL! Well I think it's more the venom and rabid way you put your arguments across and your constant "you're an Xbot" remarks when anyone doesn't agree with your own view and love of Sonys console that I (and everyone else) call you SDF.

    I'm curious what games do you enjoy on your 360 then?


  • orenishii #233 4 years ago

    So according to the annalysts the PC market is dead? xbox is gonna crash? PS3 is destined to struggle and the Wii user base is about to implode!?! It's a good time to be a gamer then!

    Gets out atari 2500

  • penguin_overlord #234 4 years ago

    I think that in 5-8 years when this generation of consoles is summarised, it will be said that the 360 kick-started it, the Wii showed early dominance and the PS3 had a very poor start. However, it will also say that Microsoft didn't do enough to capitalise on their early start, the Wii ran out of steam as (like any toy) people got bored of it AND its lack of HD made it look increasingly basic, and the PS3 made up for its initial poor start with big exclusives that eventually saw it become no.1.

    This process is already starting as the PS3 now regularly outsells the 360 in all territories and that's without big exclusives and hindered by a much higher price. What becomes of the 360 when the PS3 drops below £200 and it has a solid catalogue of big exclusives? As for the Wii, I think eventually more people will start to appreciate the benefits of HD gaming and the PS3's lower price point, coupled with more mainstream titles like Singstar and Buzz will see it make progress. Plus, there's talk of a new motion controller for the PS3.

  • miiiguel #235 4 years ago

    penguin: youll be surprised with US numbers then... 360 will ousell PS3 again. Get over it, PS3 is but an emotional thing, it is the worse gaming system. But if you're willing to wait 8 years, although you said in this very forum that PS3 would outsell 360 in 2008 - PS3 year... yeah... right, what a good year it is... lol.

  • malloc #236 4 years ago

    These analysts are probably correct.

    Nintendo's problem has always been to keep the momentum going. That said they have a new chap in charge who looks like he's doing things differently, so we'll see. The DS has already hit saturation point in Japan, so they must be thinking about what to do next. Maybe at E3 we may hear something? Next year?

    M$ are in a bit of a comfort zone with their blood and boobs console. It's sells games, alright, aslong as they're shooters, which is fine, but means that M$ are going to be reaching saturation point sooner rather than later. Trying to move out of the comfort zone with the Japs and with Rare, seems to have failed, so they have choices to make.

    It's fine saying that the PS2 sold as a DVD player, but then look at how well the PS1 did. They've been doing something right and seem to be able to get the momentum going, even if it takes years, fair play to 'em.

  • woodnotes #237 4 years ago

    @ malloc:

    "M$" and "only shooters sell"? Oh ffs.

  • electrolite #238 4 years ago

    Most people don't give a toss about playing games in HD. A lot of houses barely have one HDTV, let alone two, which to really hit the mass market userbase is going to be needed.

  • memeroot #239 4 years ago

    this console 'war' seems to have been going on for 4 years now,

    the 360 still has the best graphics, has been out nigh on 3 years and cot less than a ps3 does now.

    if you bought it you won. excellent!!!!!!!

    now however were looking (or should be) for the next big thing, and because we all pirated crysis its not graphics that'll be the next step but some flash game.

    this gen is about the pheriables, get over it

  • kopykatt #240 4 years ago

    You know what really worries me? They say competition is a good thing but with the world market split between the 360 and the PS3 it seems the opposite. Who's going to invest large sums of money in a major project in either console if they can only sell to half the world?
    By the way, I own both machines (so I have the choice of whatevers released) but prefer using the PS3. Its a far nicer machine to use, quieter and better quality machine. Although I'm not daft enough to buy a game on the PS3 if the 360 version is better.
    You gotta love fanboyism.

  • eepic #241 4 years ago

    Hmm I don't believe at all that the 360 is going to struggle.. like someone said, it's all about the developers and attach rate. 360 games SELL. And they are on par with ps3 games graphically, sometimes multiplatform games are even better looking on the 360... So i won't be trading in my 360 for a ps3 just yet. Also you gotta take into consideration that there are not as many f*cking niggers on xbox live, i've played on psn at my friend's house and it seems like 70% of the players are just stupid nigger faggots _ruining_ the game for other normal people (try playing cod4 tactically with those "people".....)

    Just my 2 cents heh.

  • Chupakun #242 4 years ago

    Gears of War 2 should move a fair few units.

    Calling the Wii a fad is pointless. It is and will continue to steamroller on ahead. It's created an image of value added fun with a gimmick that works. The voices on the internet are a FEW of MANY and aren't really the target audience, so they're going to deride the product. In a family of four with a mum, dad, brother and sister, the Wii aims for three out of four of the members instead of the one. By aiming for that, they've created the opportunity to expand the market significantly. With gaming get more media attention, parents as well will tend to endorse the Wii since it's the exact opposite of the negative points brought forth. Call it as much of a casual console or perhaps something to get disenfranchised with as time goes on, but it's a device that has you at hello and that's not going to change. By then you'll have bought it.

    Perhaps the numbers will wane over time due to these reasons, but the initial market explosion has enough momentum to keep it going.

    Note: I own a PS3. Not an Xbox 360 or a Wii. I'm merely talking about the fantastic business acumen behind the Nintendo Wii.

  • Chupakun #243 4 years ago

    ^^^

    "Arbiter
    08-Jun-08 01:39:36

    You need to understand the way analysts think, to understand why they make the assessments they do..."

    Who, me?

  • Kryon #244 4 years ago

    @swam (AKA. Headbog, frub, etc)

    I've put this question to you many times but you always try and duck it, so, I'll ask again. You clearly stated on many occasions that you 'sold' your 360 at the beginning of the year (this was when you used to go by the user name of 'headbog') yet now you claim to still own one. So either you never sold your 360 or you have since purchased another one (or more likely, you've never owned one at all). So, what's the truth? Using multiple sock ID's doesn't fool anyone.

    Anyway, I'm sure you will choose to ignore this post because you know you can't answer it without looking like even more of an imbecile but I'll keep asking all the same.

  • Kryon #245 4 years ago

    @swam

    So, I'll ask again, as it's obviously a difficult subject for you to comprehend. Here we go again.

    Why did you claim to have sold your 360 months ago under a different UID but now you claim to own another one?

    DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION SWAM?

    As for Gears2 not selling many systems or MGS shifting loads, blah blah, etc. I really couldn't give a toss. (A) - because I'm not a teenage boy (like yourself) and (B) - because I actually do physically own both systems (unlike you).

    Edited by 1 at 08/06/08 @ 09:46

  • penguin_overlord #246 4 years ago

    Looking at the market situation today and over the past couple of years, it's entirely possible that both Sony and Microsoft mis-judged the need today for HD gaming at this point. The run-away success of the Wii, combined with still solid sales figures for the PS2, clearly shows that a lot of people (in fact the majority) are not so seduced by hi-res visuals to place their importance over gameplay. Speaking as a PS3 owner, I know a lot of people who just can't see the difference between SD and HD on a 32-inch TV and let's not forget that HD TV's still represent the miniority of the userbase, even if they are the majority of current sales.

    Two scenarios would have been possible had both companies waited. One is that Microsoft and Sony could have released a new standard-def console a couple of years ago that still had superior power over their predecessors but could be instantly sold for something like the price of a Wii. The second option would have been to just keep the current consoles and release the new games on them. I understand that probably wouldn't have been a good option for Microsoft as Xbox figures had stalled but Sony's gaming division would have been extremely profitable keeping with the PS2. A lot of the PS3s current library (including GTA4, Ratchet & Clank, Drakes Fortune and others) could have survived on the PS2 with lower-res visuals. I think we'd have seen a very different landscape today.

    But, of course, Microsoft wanted HD as it needed to start with a fresh chance of being number one and Sony needed the PS3 to push Blu-Ray.

    Just food for thought.

  • electrolite #247 4 years ago

    @swam:

    I agree, but that's an issue for the next gen. MS and Sony tried to make it a big issue in this gen but it's just not relevant. Neither is BR, and personally I don't think that ever will. That's why they're losing the race this gen, trying to sell to the people based on selling points that the people, in the main, don't want yet

  • Amoebalove #248 4 years ago

    Why did you claim to have sold your 360 months ago under a different UID but now you claim to own another one?

    Come on swam answer the question!

  • Xerx3s #249 4 years ago

    "Uncharted
    UT3 (With mods!)
    COD4
    R&C Tools Of Destruction
    Burnout Paradise
    GTA4
    Motorstorm
    GRID
    GT5 Prologue "

    Mentioning games that aren't out yet ftl. 6/9 are shooters, ps3 = shooter/racer box confirmed!! ;p

  • Xerx3s #250 4 years ago

    "I guess I must be the case that proves the point as I have an XBOX 360 and Wii sitting next to my PS3 - but you all think I am a rabid SDF member. "

    You know, it really isn't nice to steal other peoples gamertags just so you can claim to own a 360.



    EDIT: "I rarely use my 360 these days as the exclusives are few and far between now, and those that there are are rubbish. "

    Oh nice dodge there, needed more time to see what te guy played?

    EDIT2: Ahhh, I see that you are learning.You removed your GT after I called bull on that last time. The guy had no clue about you.
    Edited by 2 at 08/06/08 @ 11:16

  • Kryon #251 4 years ago

    @Amoebalove

    swam will never answer that question, he can't because he knows he's lying through his teeth. It's amusing watching him clumbsily try and dodge it though :D

    My guess is that he's probably about 14/15ish, saved up his pocket money & paper round wage for a year or two and just managed to scrimp together enough cash for the 'legendary' console of (his) dreams, only to realise that Sony had duped him and that the PS3 is in fact not 'X' amount of times better than the 360.

    That's when the jealousy and hatred started. Just as Sméagol became Gollum in LoTR, Headbog became swam, a sad and pathetic creature filled with hatred, anger and self loathing, driven to incoherency by his mental anguish, the creature can now only mutter the word "XBOTS" repeatedly under his breath while skulking in the darkened corners of the EG comments sections... Poor thing, bless his cotton socks :(

  • bad09 #252 4 years ago

    @ Kryon

    LOL yeah I imagine swam/headbog to be 14/15 :)

    Swam, I can't believe you own a 360 but don't use it, what's the point? I find the Wii pretty poor but there is still some fun for me to be had. If I didn't like a console completely I would get rid of it to raise cash for stuff on the consoles I did enjoy. I can't help but agree with Kyron that it's lies. Of course I would never know this as I don't know you personally friend but judging by the games you play there is plenty on offer for you on the good old 360 so I can't see the why the hate.

    Anyway it's a nice day and Euro has started this weekend so let's all call a truce on the console war and argue footy instead, who's gonna win guys? :)

  • malloc #253 4 years ago

    @ woodnotes

    Re: M$, isn't MS a trademark, so you're not supposed to use that? I'm not trying to be clever with.

    Re: shooters selling. Halo 3, CoD 4, GoW etc. come no mate, it may ave been a bit of a simplification but it's hardly a controversial statement. My point is that they have a smaller market to target and attempts to break out of it with Rare and the Japanese efforts haven't been particularly successful.

    Do you have anything to say on those points, or just acronyms, hmm?

  • Xerx3s #254 4 years ago

    The 360 may be the best in shooters and all that but that doesn't mean it isn't good in other things as well. An those attempts aren't so bad, most people just don't know about it. Many people think that VP flopped i.e. But it sold well over a million copies by the end of 2k7 and continues at a steady rate.

  • penguin_overlord #255 4 years ago

    Personally, I don't really care which console wins providing the games I want to play are available on the PS3. Whenever I comment on these forums, I'm only looking at it subjectively from a business perspective.

    This console generation will be remembered as the one that suffered growing pains. It's unique because HD challenges consumers and fights for their mindset. All previous generations did not require consumers to invest in new TVs to get the most out of their consoles. There is no doubt that HD will become the defacto standard in the years ahead but for a lot of people it's not a factor for gaming today. I don't really think it's until the next generation that HD will become the standard when Nintendo themselves have a HD console and both Microsoft and Sony have consoles that can properly do 1080P games.

    Looking at the current generation from a business perspective only, there is no doubt at all that the PS3 will outsell the 360. The 360 lacks any enticing exclusives in the near to mid future that will propel the sale of consoles like titles like MGS4, GT5, LBP or FFXIII will. I'm not doubting the quality of titles like the new Gears of War or Fable releases but they won't sell consoles. As has already mean mentioned, GT4 did not do for 360 business what it did for PS3 business and neither will GOW2. However, FPS games like Resistance 2 and Killzone 2 could sell PS3s as the hardcore FPS gamers choose to either switch to PS3 or buy one as an additional console.

    The 360 is selling to the same core audience as the original Xbox. It will outsell it but probably only by about 10-15 million, still putting it far behind what the PS3 will achieve (although I don't think the PS3 will have the same success as the PS2). The original Xbox benefited from the release of two Halo games that gave it both a big kickstart at launch and a good mid-life push. No new Halo game has been announced yet (Halo Wars doesn't count) so it's hard to see what will give the 360 a push in the next 12-18 months. My numbers are pure speculation but the fact that the PS3 will outsell the 360 is a fact. If you dispute that you're obviously a fanboy because you're incapable of understanding pure logic.

    The sad thing for Microsoft is that probably the same thing will happen next generation as well. And I think Sony will come back stronger next time because it won't be trying to launch a new DVD format so that won't delay the launch or inflate the price. Microsoft's best ever chance was this generation.

  • bad09 #256 4 years ago

    "My numbers are pure speculation but the fact that the PS3 will outsell the 360 is a fact. If you dispute that you're obviously a fanboy because you're incapable of understanding pure logic."

    penguin_overlord, so people are fanboys if they disagree with your own fanboy speculation? Wow......
    Edited by 1 at 08/06/08 @ 12:55

  • Kryon #257 4 years ago

    Sales of consoles do not interest me, games interest me, hence I buy the console that supplies what I want, that's why I favour the 360 (although I do own both).

    Where are the JRPGs on PS3? Hmm, there aren't any, shame. The 360 has the better fighters, better racers better JRPGs, better online play and yes, better shooters as well. Where are all the quirky niche titles on PS3? Well, there's a few (Super Stardust HD is a laugh) but there are just as many niche type games on the 360. The only game I actually use my PS3 for is Tekken, which is just an updated PS2 game and really doesn't compare to VF5 (online version)... It's nice watching Sweeney Todd in HD though but that's really the systems only saving grace at the mo, Blu-ray....

    Analysts can spout all the bobbins they want and yeah, I'd agree that in ten years the PS3 will quite possibly have outsold the 360, because in ten years time maybe it will actually have a decent software library. I seriously don't see MS 'struggling' over the next year though and I don't see the PS3 ever overtaking the Wii sales wise.

  • bad09 #258 4 years ago

    @ Kryon

    Do people still play Tekken online? I love Tekken DR and am thinking of getting the online version but it's been out a while so if no one plays it now i might not bother

  • Kryon #259 4 years ago

    @bad09

    Yeah, there's always someone on Tekken, can take a few minutes to find a decent room sometimes but it's definitely worth a download, it does look lovely upscaled too :)

  • bad09 #260 4 years ago

    cool, I'm gonna get it, I need something online to tide over until SC4 :)

  • Kryon #261 4 years ago

    @bad09

    SC4 is where it gets tricky for me, usually I'd go for the 360 version as it will probably look slightly nicer (with AA and such) but the lure of Vader has me confused, unless they announce down loadable characters before launch day, I may go for the PS version.

    Anyway, I've sent you my PSN id so you can fight me on Tekken anytime dude, I warn you though, after last night, even swam admits that I'm the true king of Iron Fist! :D

  • bad09 #262 4 years ago

    @ Kryon

    Cool! I'm gonna get it tomorrow so I look forward to it!! :)

    Oh, 360 SC4 for me yoda FTW everytime, the quick little dude is gonna be a laugh!

  • Codger81 #263 4 years ago

    @penguin

    "The 360 lacks any enticing exclusives in the near to mid future that will propel the sale of consoles like titles like MGS4, GT5, LBP or FFXIII will"

    Have to disagree, but I still think the PS3 will sell more in the end on reputation alone.

  • DAN.E.B #264 4 years ago

    well if it looks bleek for the the console with the best games then it looks pretty bleek for the gaming industry as a whole.

  • Rash' #265 4 years ago

    Xerx3s, The problem with VP, from what I understand, is that it has an identity crisis. On the one hand it's a IP geared to towards a young market and on the other it's a complex strategy game that doesn't appeal to such a market. Good games they may be, but in terms of a strategy to appeal to a mass market, coming up to threes year in the system's life, 360 has failed considerably.

    I still believe PS3 will come out the leaders in installed user base by the end of this generation. The problem with the other two is they both have intitially been reliant on a one trick pony strategy (family friendly with Ninty and the hardcore with Microsoft). Sony on the other hand have lend the way in defining the brand image of their console. Adventuring with Nathan Drake, to platforming with Ratchett and Clank. Arcadey action with Motorstorm to refined racing with GT. Unshamed Karaoke fun with Singstar to the soon to be released brain teasing quiz Buzz! FPS checklisting with Resistance to the PS Eye. They may not all be genre defining brillant games, but they don't have to be. For mass market appeal (note: not casual) the key to success is diversity, which I still don't think the other two fully appreciate.

  • Kryon #266 4 years ago

    @DAN:SOLO

    I totally agree, it's actually a bit depressing if you dwell on that thought for too long...

  • Kryon #267 4 years ago

    @Rash'

    It seems as if you think (or want to believe) that this gen will be a repeat of the PS2 era. The problem I see is that, the kind of people who want to play Sing Star/ EyeToy type games will buy a Wii, because it's better for that kind of thing. People who want JRPGs, shooters, fighters, drivers, etc, will buy a 360 because (as of yet) it is better at that kind of thing (and that wont necessarily change). The PS3 is a jack of all trades, master of none.

    It's not like the PS2, which in the end really did have such an excellent and diverse library of software and no one what so ever to rival it. This time things are different, there are two very powerful rivals this time. The PS3 will never reign supreme as its predecessor did.

  • Rash' #268 4 years ago

    Kryon, The Wii isn't a HD console with Bluray. The 360 isn't a family friendly console with Bluray. Sony has the most important thing going for it along with the strengths that the other two lack, brand loyality. That loyality, as I've mentioned before, is there because that one console caters to a diverse group of people. Lets just agree to disagree and see what happens because you won't convince me and I won't convince you.

  • Kryon #269 4 years ago

    @Rash'

    Fair play, I'm not trying to dictate to you or change your mind, I'm just calling it how I see it. Again, I'd say people who want casual games aren't the ones who care about HD. Blu-ray players are getting cheaper by the second, so that isn't going to be such a major plus point to the PS3 soon (especially if the rumour that MS are unveiling a new BD 360 for Christmas at a price below the current Elite model are true) . <a href=http://kotaku.com/5014349/rumor-micr osoft-to-announce-blu+ray-xbox-on-monday>Apparently they may announce it tomorrow</a>...

    Anyway, like you said, we'll see.

  • Rash' #270 4 years ago

    Kryon: A note: it's not casual, which imply's gaming for the less dedicate, rather mass market which is a broad demographic of people which a product appeals to.
    Edited by 1 at 09/06/08 @ 02:32

  • Kryon #271 4 years ago

    What I said was in reply to "The Wii isn't a HD console with Bluray"... I don't believe the average Wii owner, really cares whether it's HD or has Blu-ray.

    You talk of the PS3's 'mass market appeal' , Sorry, but I don't see it, the Wii has said appeal, (relatively speaking) the PS3 does not. Neither does the 360 imo.

  • eepic #272 4 years ago

    shut up you fucking faggot ps3 fans... xbl owns your stupid mgs4 bulshit haha still no in-game music or messaging..

    go play with your non-rumble six-axis lol fucking niggers
    Edited by 2 at 08/06/08 @ 23:41

  • Teamallstar #273 4 years ago

    It is sad that the PS3 manages to get by on an uninformed population of Europe. I own a PS3 and a 360 and there is nothing that the PS3 does that the 360 doesn't do better.

    I feel sorry for people like swam who really don't know what they are missing.

  • Rash' #274 4 years ago

    Kryon, The wii hardly has mass market appeal. It has nothing to appeal to the 20-40 male demographic that enjoys games readily available on 360 and PS3. It doesn't have as establish an online infrastruture as 360 or even PS3. Mass market is to appeal to as many different demographics and at the moment Wii appeals to the family friendly casual market, which just happens to be the largest portion of the pie. People like yourself confuse that with mass market appeal, which it isn't. There are many dedicated gamers that don't own a Wii simply because it doesn't have anything to cater to their tastes. That's not mass market. That's, as I've said before, a one trick pony.

  • Kryon #275 4 years ago

    "Mass market is to appeal to as many different demographics and at the moment Wii appeals to the family friendly casual market"

    Exactly, so the Wii appeals to children, women, the elderly and the 'casual' male gamer as well. It also appeals to many 'hardcore' 20 - 40 year old male gamers because many of us have families/girlfriends to buy it for and therein lies the appeal, also, most 20+ males enjoy getting drunk with mates and playing stupid mini games. That's what you call mass market appeal. Not to mention that there are actually some 'hardcore' games worth owning on the Wii as well. RE4, Zelda, MP3, SMG.

    The PS3 (and 360) appeal to the single adult male. Surely that's the 'one trick pony', no?

    (Disclaimer, I personally don't like the Wii, I did buy one to make my own mind up and it didn't do it for me so I sold it, Wiilol)

  • Kryon #276 4 years ago

    @swam

    "Well since you all think that because I have a negative view of the 360 and a positive one of the Ps3 that must mean I dont own a 360"

    No, we know you don't own one because you told us that you SOLD IT FFS and because Xerx3s caught you out using someone else's GT as 'proof' of your ownership (which you have since removed after realising you'd been rumbled).

  • onyx_elite #277 4 years ago

    What a load of old shit. I've never heard such claptrap in all my life. It's clear that the main proponent of all this unfounded criticism is purely an ex-Sony crony with a big mouth. Xbox is strides ahead in the casual and non-casual sectors and both are backed up by a decent online service. None of which can be said for the PS3.

    Also squarejawhero is a tool.

  • muscleblade #278 4 years ago

    @swam

    Your a damn lier. You never owned a 360 everybody can easily see that. Moron.

  • Les #279 4 years ago

    Funny thread this. :)

    To all the 360 fans: The fact that you love the machine to bits is very nice but it doesn't mean anything for market success. Maybe it's better than the PS3, maybe it's not. Doesn't matter in the end, as it's all about which console makes the most money for its company. That's clearly the Wii and PS3 and 360 will not come close this gen (unless Blu-Ray really takes off the coming year).

    Futhermore, a lot of people still don't seem to understand that online is largely irrelevant. About 50% of 360 use Live, for Wii and PS3 it’s lower of course. It’s still not a deciding factor when people make the decision to buy a console – or a game for that matter. It will become more and more important of course as time progresses but right now it’s nice that it’s there but it will not score you many bonus points in the eyes of the general consumer. Maybe Home can change that, maybe not, we’ll see.

    As for those discarding the views of analysts in general and this story in particular: As time progresses, their predictions will be more and more accurate as the information that they have available increases in quality and quantity. The analysts were way off with the Wii and PS3 at the start of this gen but that doesn’t mean that they will stay way off…

  • anomagnus #280 4 years ago

    Couldn't be arsed reading all the comments, but my own thoughts can be summed up in an equation

    analyst = wank

    Quite frankly, the whole gist of the argument was

    Europe = Great
    America = Not good
    MS = Bad

    What total bullshit. I have serious, serious concerns about this so called 'casual market'

    For a start, its pretty clear that while millions buy the wii, they're NOT buying games in sufficient quantities. Lets be clear on this, without games, we're not really in a games industry. Its just a fucking hardware industry. Quite frankly, i'm amazed any developers make games for the wii, they're either first party excellence, or thrid party shite, and those games that are good are bought by the committed gamer anyway (barring some adventurous customer that takes their eyes of wii sports) negating the whole purpose of the 'casual' gamer.

    As for Sony's 'dominance' in Europe, true, its always been there, but i question how long that will last given how much they've pissed all over Europe this time around.

    Quite frankly, MS came into the game late, and have proven themselves to be a market leader, and some Anti America, ms hating bitching nordics really seem out of touch.

    But moving on, these assholes seem to have no confidence in the market at all. I question why they even bothered to turn up, if they have so little confidence in the market.



    Edited by 1 at 09/06/08 @ 09:23

  • InsoFox #281 4 years ago

    Usually a bit of competition can be a good thing, but I can't honestly think of much good that's come of the boring 360/PS3 rivalry. Next gen I'd be happy for one of the consoles to die, I don't care which one. Not that it's going to happen. Nintendo can carry on doing their own thing because that's what they do best, but as far as I'm concerned the sooner people stop feeling the need to defend their own purchase the better, as far as I'm concerned.

  • Kryon #282 4 years ago

    A quick translation of Les' (I'm not a fanboy, honest!) comment -

    The analysts were way off with the Wii and PS3 at the start of this gen but that doesn’t mean that they will stay way off…

    Translates to -

    The analysts are wrong if they diss Sony because I love them, I freely admit to disliking MS though, so the analysts must be right this time

  • Charlie_Miso #283 4 years ago

    the battle to come second, and to a toy no less, rages on across the universe.

  • Andy247 #284 4 years ago

    Hasn't the Xbox already made a profit? If the "analyst" can't even get that right then I don't really think he has a lot of creedence.

  • Les #285 4 years ago

    "Hasn't the Xbox already made a profit? If the "analyst" can't even get that right then I don't really think he has a lot of creedence."

    Accounting profit in one or more quarters is completely different from a project (in this case the 360) actually generating money for a company. Timing of cash flows and a required rate of return on invested capital complicate matters. But even when not taking those factors into account, the 360 cost billions to build, there have been operating losses the first two years and next it made small/medium profits (including btw sales from the windows game division amongst others) for a quarter or three. These definitely didn't outweigh the earlier losses (they'd have a hard time to outweigh the billion dollar warranty write-off).

  • DjFlex52 #286 4 years ago

    A quick translation of swam:

    "I really have nothing to say so I'll just add to my post count"

  • DjFlex52 #287 4 years ago

    It's going to be so much fun to watch what Les says after all his MS gloom & doom don't really happen this year :)

    He said the same things in 2007. He was wrong!

  • Kryon #288 4 years ago

    @swam

    You've been publicly outed as a lying fanboy halfwit who uses other peoples gamer tags (without permission) in a pathetic attempt to 'prove' you own a 360. When people remind you of the times you've denied any longer owning the system, you completely ignore them, as if you've lost the ability to read. It's almost as if you really do want a 360 so badly but can't afford it? Did you blow your dole money on Haze or something?

    I'll ask again though (because the more you ignore it, the more pathetic you look), Why did you claim to have sold your 360 months ago under a different UID but now you claim to own another one?

    Try and answer it this time.

    /waits for pathetic excuses...

  • Rash' #289 4 years ago

    Kryon, I see. So Wii is a mass market product that didn't suit you tastes...

  • DjFlex52 #290 4 years ago

    Kryon, I see. So Wii is a mass market product that didn't suit you tastes...

    @Rash'

    I agree with Kryon...Wii doesn't suit me either. The same with those energy drinks which have become mass market...hate em!

  • Kryon #291 4 years ago

    Rash', just because a product is mass market, it doesn't mean that every single person in the entire universe is going to love it.

  • FortysixterUK #292 4 years ago

    MS hold the reins over the console world right now ( except maybe for DS ).

    MS 360 has the best selection of games and the best networked environment.

    Sadly, what it also has is the worst built piece of hardware since the underwater hairdryer.

    My 2nd xbox since release went down just 2 weeks ago ( now replaced by a new Elite courtesy of Game) and my nephew had 3 go down in 10 days on him, the last one going down just last saturday morning ( just an example of the poor build quality in my experience).

    Improve the build and durability of the machine ( It's in a metal case FFS, so thats not gonna break, so why not make the innards more durable ?).

    I suggest making the Mobo, the wires, the CD laser and everything else out of the same metal as the case is made from. That way nothing will break or overheat. Or am I missing something here ?

  • Rash' #293 4 years ago

    I bought the Wii and a lot of the time it gathers dust, so I know what you two mean about it not suiting your tastes. The difference between you and I is I don't believe we're alone in this. There isn't enough variety in it's library, certainly not in Ninty's portfolio which is concerning as it's the only company making profit of software sales. As I said most content on Wii is geared towards a family friend market, there is little out there for a gamer (casual or otherwise) looking for mature content.
    Edited by 2 at 10/06/08 @ 12:04

  • Kryon #294 4 years ago

    OK, so, the PS3 & 360 rock and the Wii is lol. I'm happy to go with that :)

  • Rash' #295 4 years ago

    Kryon, I wouldn't say lol, just that's it's not mass market imo.
    Edited by 1 at 10/06/08 @ 12:44

  • Kryon #296 4 years ago

    Well, I see no logic in why you would believe it to be otherwise, apart from all the points I've already put across, the sales alone speak for themselves. Maybe you have a different understanding of the words 'mass market' than I do but I don't see the 360 or PS3 appealing to little girls, housewives, old grand parents etc, the Wii does and that's a fact.

  • Rash' #297 4 years ago

    Kryon, As I've said by definition mass market is to appeal to as broad a demographic of consumers as possible. I think you're confusing sales and appeal to "girls, housewives, old grand parents" to mass market appeal. Sales I attribute to it's low launch price and as I've said the system doesn't appeal to the demographic console makers have traditionally appealed to so it hardly appeals to a broad demographic. This can change but I don't see it changing dramatically as third parties will most likely follow Ninty's lead and produce content that suits that market i.e. games for "girls, housewives, old grand parents".

  • Kryon #298 4 years ago

    But don't you see, it doesn't matter whether the appeal is because of a low launch price or just because it looks 'cute' or whatever. It doesn't matter why someone wants it, or why it appeals to them. The fact that they do want it and it does appeal to them is all that matters. I don't believe it has anything to do with price though tbh, the 360 is now cheaper than the Wii but we haven't seen a massive sales spike...

    "the system doesn't appeal to the demographic console makers have traditionally appealed to so it hardly appeals to a broad demographic"

    Erm, the fact that Nintendo deviated from the norm is the exact reason that the console does appeal to a broader demographic. I am really stumped as to why you're not grasping this?

  • Rash' #299 4 years ago

    Kryon, I don't believe Ninty has reached out to an audience that wasn't there to begin with. Sony tapped in to them with their Eye Toy, Sing Star and Buzz! franchises last gen. The difference with Ninty's strategy is that rather than court the the proven market with the hardcore first, they've gone straight for the casual family friend approach with greater intent and propose than Sony ever did. What you're over looking is that to be mass market Ninty needs to appeal to all demographics not "deviated" from those that have made the industry what it is. Sony's strategy is proven and has lead it to mass market success before. It's strategy is, come out with a high end, high price console and reach out to the hardcore. As the price drops broaden than reach to a wider demographic with titles that appeal to them. PS3 is pricey at the moment, but as the prices drop the titles will be there to appeal to that wider demographic: Buzz!, Sing Star, PS Eye, Littlebigplanet as well as a rumoured Wiimote imitation. Ninty it seems decided that it would do away with Sony's first step aimed at the hardcore and, with an appealing entry price for it's intended market, go for the wider demographic. It's succeeding because it's the focal point of their strategy, but there are still uncertainties about their strategy. How will anyone other than Ninty make profit on the console. Will these consumers, who have traditionally been indifferent to gaming, continue to invest in their Wii Sports console? How will the technology stand up two to three years from now? We've returned to this point where we're both trying to convince each other of our logic and failing miserably. I'm just not convinced Wii is as mass market as you and many others believe here. Time will tell.

    Edit: 360's pricing is relavent because Microsoft's mass market strategy is a shambles... to put it bluntly. People don't care for it's price because there are no titles to appeal to a wider demographic.
    Edited by 1 at 11/06/08 @ 02:03

  • Kryon #300 4 years ago

    So, because the PS3 will have two or three casual games spliced in with the sea of FPS and racers, in your book that makes it mass market, where as the Wii has a few hardcore games spliced in with all the family orientated stuff but that's somehow not mass market?

    My friend, you have things the wrong way around. The family/casual market is potentially a lot bigger than the 'hardcore' market, so it makes good business sense to cater to peoples needs accordingly. That may not be what 'hardcore' gamers like myself wanted from Nintendo but Nintendo don't care, they just want to make money and they're doing rather well in that respect.

  • Les #301 4 years ago

    "Ninty it seems decided that it would do away with Sony's first step aimed at the hardcore and, with an appealing entry price for it's intended market, go for the wider demographic. It's succeeding because it's the focal point of their strategy, but there are still uncertainties about their strategy. How will anyone other than Ninty make profit on the console. Will these consumers, who have traditionally been indifferent to gaming, continue to invest in their Wii Sports console? How will the technology stand up two to three years from now?"

    Other developers can make money on the console by releasing good games, very easy (though making said games of course can be quite difficult). Western developers underestimated the Wii and thought that just putting PS2 ports on it was the best way to the consumer's cash. This turned out to be a wrong strategy. With the best development resources committed to long term 360 and PS3 projects, it will be a while before the best talent is used on the most promising and profitable platform.

    A significant part of the Wii userbase are not hardcore Nintendo fans and therefore are open to quality software from other publishers. But if 3rd party publishers wait too long with delivering quality to the Wii, all those new gamers might start to associate quality gaming with just the Nintendo brand, turning the Wii into another GC when it comes to 3rd party games. That would be a colossal mistake of the 3rd party publishers because it will hurt their long-term sales potential by making it less likely that Wii-users branch out to other consoles.

    I think the tech part is fairly irrelevant. Wii tech is good enough for representing engaging game worlds and that will still be the case a couple of years from now. It's a myth that better graphical fidelity will eventually lead to mass market adoption of games. The hardcore are obsessed by it, the consumer plays PS2, DS and Wii games and couldn't care less...

  • Rash' #302 4 years ago

    Kyron. I don't agree with you. Your arguement is flawed. The market isn't divided in to hardcore and casual. It's a mix of racers, FPSs, platformers, fighters, RPGs, adventurers, shooters, idiosyncratic as well as the casual, all with sub genres of their own. You seem to think everything other than casual is hardcore and therefore isn't a market large enough to sustain mass market success. You are wrong. Mass market success, history has shown, comes to the console that caters to as many of the above tastes has possible. Catering to just one isn't a proven strategy for mass market success. Like I said, you see the sales and assume that it's a given that the generation will continue this way. I'm not convinced. There's still a long way to go in this generation and I suspect the holes in Ninty's strategy will start to show soon if they don't recognise the need to cater to a wider and more mature audience. Once again, it's about leadership. If Ninty lead with the intent soley to appeal to the casual and family orientated then in the long run I suspect their market won't continue to expand. These are my opinions, so give it a rest, you aren't going to convince me.
    Edited by 3 at 11/06/08 @ 12:41

  • Kryon #303 4 years ago

    "You are wrong. Mass market success, history has shown, comes to the console that caters to as many of the above tastes has possible."

    Well it would seem that history doesn't always repeat itself, because if the above was true then the 360 would be the market leader by a mile at present as it has the most varied ,diverse and indeed best catalogue of titles available at this moment in time, no one can really deny that. You seem to think that 'mass market' means that a certain product must appeal to every man and his dog. That's not the case. Mass market simply means a product must appeal to the 'masses', that doesn't necessarily mean you can cover every single base though. Coffee is a mass market product but there are many people who dislike it and prefer tea.

    "Like I said, you see the sales and assume that it's a given that the generation will continue this way."

    I feel it's you who has seen the success of the PS2 and believe things will carry on as they were last gen, maybe so, but I personally think you're setting yourself up for a disappointment...

    Edit- I'm not trying to convince you, you're blinkered beyond any reasoning so there would be little point. Too many of your arguments contradict your other points of view, I think you will just believe what makes you happy, and that's fine. Console wars don't bother me as I'm very happy with my gaming rig.
    Edited by 3 at 11/06/08 @ 17:00

  • Rash' #304 4 years ago

    Kryon, All those that are confident of ones opinion are susceptible to some form of blinkering...

    "Too many of your arguments contradict your other points of view"

    "You seem to think that 'mass market' means that a certain product must appeal to every man and his dog. That's not the case. Mass market simply means a product must appeal to the 'masses'"

    I'll leave it to you to decide who is "blinkered".

    Thanks for the interesting discussion.

  • Kryon #305 4 years ago

    I'm guessing the above post is in someway meant to be clever...

    o_0

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