Xbox Originals

By Tom Bramwell Published 11 February, 2008

11th Feb update: Black, Ninja Gaiden, Pirates!

In December 2007, Microsoft launched the Xbox Originals platform. Part of Xbox Live Marketplace, it allows you to download Xbox 1 games for 1200 Microsoft Points (GBP 10.20 / EUR 12.00) apiece, with the likes of Halo, Psychonauts and Fahrenheit among the launch titles.

Microsoft has continued to introduce games to the service bit by bit, and we've been rounding them up in this ongoing reference guide, which offers a bit of context on each and a link back to our original review where possible, and sarcastic comments where not.

Most recent update: 11th February, for the launch of Black, Sid Meier's Pirates!, and Ninja Gaiden Black.

Halo

'Xbox Originals' Screenshot 1

8/10 review published 13th March 2002. By John Bye.

Quite popular this one, apparently. It's lovely to look to look back at the understated way former editor John greeted its much trumpeted arrival, picking over its contents from the perspective of a hardened PC FPS player. Others would heap more specific celebration on its control scheme (although John was surprised at how easily he took to it), but much of his praise and criticism has stood the test of time. Spoilsport Kristan tells us he thinks the first one is worth a 9, but then he says a lot of things. Whatever the truth of the matter (and you apparently think it's 8.7, judging by our gamepage), Halo proved to be the main foundation upon which the Xbox empire was able to stand with conviction, and so it has proved again and again.

Psychonauts

9/10 review published 23rd June 2005. By Tom Bramwell. (Second opinion by Kristan Reed.)

One of the funniest and most lovely games of 2005, and a game that so many of our panel of end-of-year experts felt the same about that it took our imaginary Game Of The Year gong in the face of strong competition. At the time, Kieron Gillen remarked: "Psychonauts isn't the game of the year. But there's part of me that's aware that in twenty years time, if you ask me about 2005, it very may well be." What a splendid sentiment. As to why, it very nearly achieved the unachievable goal of transferring the "everything is a joke" mentality of games like Day of the Tentacle into a platform setting, taking you to plenty of wonderful and hilarious places in the process. The Milkman Conspiracy, Lungfishopolis... Ahh. There have been very few like it before or since, and Brutal Legend has a lot to live up to.

Crimson Skies: High Road to Revenge

'Xbox Originals' Screenshot 2

8/10 review published 31st October 2003. By Kristan Reed.

Alternative realities are nothing new, but it takes a brave developer to propose one where the USA doesn't exist. But then you can't take Crimson Skies too seriously - it stars Nathan Zachary and the flying Fortune Hunters, for a start, who might as well be opening for Tenacious D - and it's about dogfighting in made-up skies, and does the Starfighter thing of refusing to lock people out with complexity. Kristan felt that PC fans might reckon it a bit dumbed-down, but judging by its popularity on Xbox Live at the time, enough people got past that, and even without the online elements he described it as an "excellent, polished package that offers instant and constant entertainment from the moment it hits the disc tray". Well, there's no disc this time, but then you're probably not a physical goods guy.

Fuzion Frenzy

Never reviewed!

But! It does make an appearance in the Xbox Cult Classics feature we did to celebrate five years of Xbox. "Famously," wrote Kristan, "this was Bill Gates' favourite Xbox game which is an instant kiss of death. It was also slammed by bewildered critics who didn't have time to mess around with a party game when there were so many sexier Xbox games out for launch. But actually, it was a far better compendium of four-player multiplayer games than most people were prepared to give it credit for, and it's no surprise that Microsoft has decided to follow it up on 360." And it was no surprise to those of us bewildered critics who thought it was a bit rubbish the first time to see Fuzion Frenzy 2 crash and burn. Apparently, your mileage may vary.

Burnout 3: Takedown

'Xbox Originals' Screenshot 4

9/10 review published 14th September 2004. By Kristan Reed.

The first child of Criterion's partnership - and later marriage - with EA, Takedown was also the first Burnout game to appear on Xbox from day one, and the first to embrace Xbox Live. There were teething problems - Kristan complained about an over-complicated lobby system, and a lack of integration between single- and multi-player modes (a feature whose implementation would go on to become commonplace across Xbox Live titles) - but the wealth of content and the introduction of racing elements like the titular takedowns stirred him in all the right ways. Crash mode also said hello to the infamous Crashbreakers and Heartbreakers, which continue to divide opinion next to the relative purity of Burnout 2. Subsequent title Revenge is already available on Xbox 360, but, as a way into the series for people who have yet to bother with it, Takedown for a tenner ought to be extremely tempting.

Fable

8/10 review published 8th October 2004. By Kieron Gillen.

"We're very much in Journey over Destination territory," said Kieron, dancing around his idiom with gay abandon (and, if you look back, attempting to abandon a gay husband, who he picked up on a whim). Fable's sequel is likely to be billed as one of the Xbox 360 games of 2008, but in the meantime there's little to stop you going back and enjoying what Lionhead and Big Blue Box accomplished three years ago: not a truly non-linear action role-player, but a game where curious players could take a lot more from the world than merely hit-points and mana.

Fahrenheit

9/10 review published 15th August 2005. By Kristan Reed. (Second opinion by Tom Bramwell.)

Although its inclusion in the Xbox Originals line-up was originally mooted, Fahrenheit seemed to have missed day one to judge by Microsoft's pre-launch press materials. As it turned out - and as we rather belatedly discovered when we went home and downloaded the dashboard update ourselves - it is indeed available, and that's good news. A heavily story-driven adventure game with action elements, it's almost rhythm-response in places, and slightly torturous mechanics rubbed a few people up the wrong way at the time of its release. We adored it though, delighting in its unorthodox camerawork and story-telling techniques, and among the Originals it stands out as one of the best suited to its new price point. If you didn't play it the first time, it's well worth considering.

Crash Bandicoot: Wrath of Cortex

Never reviewed!

Released for Xbox way back in April 2002, Wrath of Cortex struggled to recapture the form that made the very first Crash Bandicoot game so good (and it still is pretty moreish, amazingly), but that didn't stop it selling bundles, because nothing ever stops Crash selling in huge quantities. Whether it's worth ten of your Internet pounds today is debateable, but you don't need us to tell you that.

Black

'Xbox Originals' Screenshot black

8/10 review published 22nd February 2006. By Kristan Reed.

Criterion may be best known for its smash-'em-up racing games (Burnout 3: Takedown, of course, is already on Xbox Originals), but in 2006 it tried something else: a first-person shooter with the bare-bones, high-intensity attitude of the developer's racing franchise, modelling the impact and outcome of every bullet with the attention to detail that bent wing-mirrors and crumpled bonnets on the road. The result was Black, an almost ceaseless onslaught of projectile death. Its visual impact has diminished slightly since we first saw it (back then it was quite staggering), but the underlying gameplay is still worth experiencing.

Ninja Gaiden Black

9/10 review published 16th March, 2004. By Tom Bramwell.

Rightly regarded as one of the best games on the original Xbox (and one of the hardest), Ninja Gaiden is a third-person hackandslash with a deep, complex battle system and incredibly shiny graphics, based around Ryu Hayabusa out of Dead Or Alive. Whatever you thought about Tecmo's beat-'em-up series, this is worth a look; an unrelentingly violent, grandiose collision of thoughtful mechanics and spectacular scale. Ninja Gaiden Black, the remixed follow-up released here, introduced Mission Mode (score-attack vignettes), the two Hurricane Pack download releases (new moves, more difficulty settings - high and low - and new enemies like explosive bats). Being able to say you've finished Ninja Gaiden Black is serious gamer credibility.

Sid Meier's Pirates!

'Xbox Originals' Screenshot pirates

7/10 review published 2nd August, 2005. By Tom Bramwell.

The "Sid Meier" bit could be misleading; this isn't the epic, turn-based empire-building of Civ nor the slow and steady economics of Railroads, but rather pirate's-life simulation where you set out to avenge the deaths of your family by drinking, bootlegging and mini-gaming it up and down the Spanish Main. Button-matching and reaction time tests dictate your success or failure in the games of love, life, and sword-fighting, while ship-to-ship combat is a top-down cannon battle with silky rigging graphics and the very real danger of losing that ship you've spent ages acquiring. You can lose yourself for days getting washed up on its silly shores, providing you can put up with the repetition.

For more on the Xbox Originals, check out the official website.

Picture of Tom.

About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

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Comments (113) Latest comment 4 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • earobus #1 4 years ago

    got no space to buy 1 of these any chance of putting them on an external hd or is that buy the the 120gb hd gun still aimed at my head! thanks ms.........

  • Beano #2 4 years ago

    Remember folks... these "Xbox Original" games only run as good/bad as when putting the original Xbox disk into the 360 since the games are still emulated thru the same software... just a warning.

  • Phreez #3 4 years ago

    Hmm, I'm guessing that they won't like VGA then....?

  • SirClive #4 4 years ago

    So the moral of the story is... get down to GameStation or such like and buy the physical game disk in the pre-owneds. Chances are they will be under a tenner, you don't need spare HD space and you get something for your money that you can hold in your hands or sell/trade on when you have had enough.

  • urban #5 4 years ago

    mmmmm. no.

  • Kazzahdrane #6 4 years ago

    That's right SirClive, but it's worth bearing in mind that in North America it's very hard to find Psychonauts in stores these days AFAIK. Of course, it's on Steam for even cheaper than this if you can't find it boxed but I'd use a gamepad.

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #7 4 years ago

    get down to GameStation or such like and buy the physical game disk in the pre-owneds

    That partly depends on whether you'd prefer your cash going directly to the shops, or whether you'd prefer the devlopers/publisher/platform holder to get a share.

    Man, I've been reading too much MCV. Besides, I've been looking out for an Xbox Psychonauts for ages, and I've seen bugger all of them.

  • Salubrious_K #8 4 years ago

    When I heard about this XBox Originals I didn't think that there was much to attract me as a previous owner of the XBox. To my surprise though I see they've included Psychonauts, probably the only game on the XBox that I really wished I'd played but didn't get a chance to. That one's a definite purchase for me!

  • JYM60 #9 4 years ago

    I used to love Fuzion Frenzy
    Edited by 1 at 04/12/07 @ 08:59

  • BrokenSymmetry #10 4 years ago

    This overview would have been a lot more useful if Eurogamer had actually taken the effort to re-review these games, telling us how these games run on the 360, and how they have stood the test of time.

  • SirClive #11 4 years ago

    @Mentalist

    Thats a very good point, but despite a portion of the money going to the developers, MS are aiming it at too high a price point to make it a good proposition IMO.

  • Kryon #12 4 years ago

    "That partly depends on whether you'd prefer your cash going directly to the shops, or whether you'd prefer the devlopers/publisher/platform holder to get a share."

    Uh? Why should he care? Assuming the game was sold legally in the first place the devlopers/publisher/platform already had their fair cut from the original sale. I see no reason to not buy/sell second hand games from stores, why should Sir Clive miss out on making himself a bit of cash back when he's tired of a game? Developers and such are professionals who get paid, not charity cases who deserve our cash for nothing.
    Edited by 1 at 04/12/07 @ 09:23

  • spookyzombie #13 4 years ago

    I can buy all those titles (bar Fusion Frenzy) for £7.99 each at Gamestation. These titles are all in their 4 for £20 range.

    They should have made achievements available for them.

  • Rush2112 #14 4 years ago

    Phreez has a point. Any word if the games will play via VGA?

  • erp #15 4 years ago

    For the clueless among us (me), how much do these cost in actual money then?

  • Concrete #16 4 years ago

    Jumpy Ducky returns! :D

  • DonnieDarko333 #17 4 years ago

    Too expensive in my opinion....

    I've also played most of them to death as well.....Fable is attracting me again though!

  • mazzl #18 4 years ago

    nice :)
    i could not find psychonauts anywhere :)
    does anyone else haveproblems with VIII mine doesn't give me anything on screen
    pal rgb cable 60hz

  • peterfll #19 4 years ago

    I was given Fusion Frenzy free when MS did that free getaway to the early buyers of the Xbox when they dropped the price. It was OK.

    I *heart* Burnout 3.

  • Bumbuliuz #20 4 years ago

    I own almost all of theese games, except for Crimson Skies and I will pick that up. I wish Fable: Lost Tales was in the release then I would pick that up.

  • Rush2112 #21 4 years ago

    Well, at the moment you can download free themes and gamerpics for these games - with the exception of Burnout. Fahrenheit seems to have taken its place.

  • plok #22 4 years ago

    How many Gb are these? I can see it taking a few days to download

  • Wobble #23 4 years ago

    Besides, I've been looking out for an Xbox Psychonauts for ages, and I've seen bugger all of them.

    this.

    Every time I walk past a game shop I go and look in th 'P' section of the 2nd hand xbox games... never seen it.

  • Dan_LXIX #24 4 years ago

    There are four on ebay right now

  • L42yB #25 4 years ago

    @erp - £0.85 = 100 Microsoft Points.

    Therefore each of these games will cost you £10.20. It is a bit pricey, i guess... the only one I'll be getting is psychonaughts :D

  • Tyronne #26 4 years ago

    I hope this thread does not go the route of the developers/publishers getting part of any second hand sales , as in my mind this is no different than any second/third hand purchase.If I sold my car would Ford be entitled to any part of the money I got for my car after buying it from them in the first place? NO !!! So why all of a sudden are publishers asking for money they have already got from the original purchase.

    It just cries out GREED to me.

  • GamesProgrammer Verified Games Team Programmer, Eutechnyx Ltd. #27 4 years ago

    Anyone know how many gigs each of these originals games is? im thinking your only gonna get 1-2 on a normal HDD at a time, so can you delete them and redownload them when you want them?

    Some people are saying some xbox games dont work through the VGA cable, has that been fixed or is there a list of games somewhere that show compatibility with video modes?

  • AliRay #28 4 years ago

    Fee free to 'old' me, but how much space do these titles take up on my precious, precious 13GB HD?

  • L42yB #29 4 years ago

    Xbox games range anywhere from 1 - 6 Gb... it all depends on the game.

  • MGG #30 4 years ago

    Its not greed you feckless wonder, ITS SURVIVAL.

    Most games companies survive from game to game, and if one game sells badly, that company is normally toast. I should know, I've worked for a few. But still, keep contributing funds to Game cos they bring so much to the industry don't they? Why should Game get a 2nd chance to profit from something they had no hand in producing in the first place?

    Not all game companies are EA, Ninty, Sony, etc and they simply need every penny they can get - this is not charity, this is you as a consumer choosing to contriute to the people who have created a product that brings you entertainment. If you dont want to contribute then don't - go the Game reseller route, but dont EVER complain that all games are just EA yearly rehashes and that there is no originality left in the industry.

    /rant

  • brooza #31 4 years ago

    I'll probably get Halo if it plays over VGA

  • kangarootoo #32 4 years ago

    "Remember folks... these "Xbox Original" games only run as good/bad as when putting the original Xbox disk into the 360 since the games are still emulated thru the same software... just a warning."

    Whilst it is true that they run through the same software, I would expect all of these titles to be checked and double checked, given they are being sold as XB360 products.

    The results of running apparently certified XB games on a 360 were very mixed indeed as many here will be aware, but there was never any guarantee laid down as said games all worked fine in their original target platform. As these new downloads will ONLY work on the 360, I would expect a much higher level of QA to have been applied.

    Question for EG, or anyone who has bought one of these. Is widescreen support prevalent? Many of the old XB games I tried in my 360, whilst supporting widescreen on an original XB, would only run in 4:3 under emulation. Fable being such a case iirc.

  • L42yB #33 4 years ago

    @GamesProgrammer - Far as I know you can redownload them to the same Xbox 360 console that you first downloaded it on...

  • Kryon #34 4 years ago

    "Why should Game get a 2nd chance to profit from something they had no hand in producing in the first place? "

    But why should Joe public lose out on making money back on a game they no longer wish to keep? It's not our fault if your dev team makes unprofitable games is it? I don't care about GAME making cash, I DO care about how much cash is in my personal wallet though. You make it sound like we owe you something because you're team is struggling after making an unprofitable/crap game?

    Edit - I'd just like to add, there are plenty of non EA games made by smaller teams that do commercially well so don't try and use that as an excuse. If you can't make money out of your chosen profession, don't blame us and don't ask for hand outs, it's degrading.
    Edited by 1 at 04/12/07 @ 10:29

  • morriss #35 4 years ago

    Free themes and gamer pics with every game, btw.

  • Tyronne #36 4 years ago

    I do believe I touched a nerve, however I will stand by my opinion that games are no different than any other product and as such should never have ANY special treatment when it comes to their resale value.

    Unless they release console games with a EULA which states that all the punter has purchased is a licence for that game and that they cannot resell it then it is no different than any other goods which can be bought/sold and resold.

    Edited by 2 at 04/12/07 @ 10:28

  • L42yB #37 4 years ago

    @kangarootoo - Widescreen support on the original Xbox was very bad. Many games released on the original Xbox simply stretched a 4:3 image and still claimed widescreen support on the sticker. At the time, M$ TCR requirements stated that as long as a picture displayed while widescreen was selected in the Dash then the game would get approval for the icon...

    360 is much better regarding widescreen and hi-def. Also, I'm fairly certain that the original fable didn't support widescreen... but wud have to check...

  • huxathon #38 4 years ago

    cars rust over time. games remain the same no matter when you buy them. there is no benefit in buying a new game dvd over an old one. this is not true with cars.

  • Vermillion3000 #39 4 years ago

    I remember playing Twisted System for about 3 hours with my mate's sister one day - our eyes were almost bleeding.
    Also, playing FF with custom soundtracks is definitely the way forward! (if they still work on the 360). Basket Case is the preferred track for Twisted System...

  • Kryon #40 4 years ago

    @Huxathon

    Whats that got to do with the right to sell it?

    Although I fundamentally disagree anyway, games age just like anything else but like cars should last well if looked after.
    Edited by 1 at 04/12/07 @ 10:39

  • windowlicker #41 4 years ago

    For those of you who wondered about the game sizes

    Crash Bandicoot:WoC 985MB
    Crimson Skies 4.1GB
    Fable 3.2GB
    Fahrenheit 3.1GB
    Fusion Frenzy 1.9GB
    Halo 2.3GB
    Psychonauts 5.3GB

  • BM #42 4 years ago

    @Sir Clive

    Your first comment summed my thoughts up perfectly; why bother downloading these when you can get for cheaper in the bargain bin and possibly get a couple of quid when you flog them on.

    MS need to half the points on these (as is the case with many of the downloadable games), then people might start to look at them more seriously.

  • Monkey_Puncher #43 4 years ago

    Always wanted to give Psychonauts a go, so I might check that out when I run out of games to play. If they put Black, Castle Wolfenstein, Jet Set Radio and Conker up on the servie I'll be most pleased!
    Edited by 1 at 04/12/07 @ 10:41

  • miiiguel #44 4 years ago

    I'll be evolving me combat, once again.

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #45 4 years ago

    There's nothing illegal about trading secondhand games. But with this download initiative, as with any budget re-release scheme, the consumer is empowered to choose whether their cash goes towards the people responsible for creating and publishing game, or a retail chain.

    I know who I think is more deserving, although I admit there's a certain amount of self-interest there.

    You make it sound like we owe you something because you're team is struggling after making an unprofitable/crap game?

    You realise, in this particular case, it's DoubleFine and Psychonauts you're talking about?

    Edit: tautology
    Edited by 1 at 04/12/07 @ 11:10

  • Darren #46 4 years ago

    Will Halo support 60Hz? I mean it would be annoying if people with VGA monitors downloaded it and found they couldn't play it, right?

  • Darren #47 4 years ago

    I still own some 55 original Xbox games so this service is of little use to me. The only game I haven't got which I wouldn't mind is Psychonauts otherwise I've got all the games I wanted right now.

  • ParanoidZombie #48 4 years ago

    FYI: according to xbox.com, this is Fable + the lost chapters add-on. It's not that bad a deal.

  • groovychainsaw #49 4 years ago

    Does fable come with the additional content they released later? Might be tempted into that if so. Otherwise I've got/played the rest ;-)
    /Edit Dame you zombie, answering my question before i ask it... grrrr
    /Gets chainsaw
    /Decapitates zombie
    Edited by 1 at 04/12/07 @ 11:55

  • Wendelius #50 4 years ago

    EG, what about Fahrenheit? You didn't even mention it.

    Wendelius

  • Vin #51 4 years ago

    You chimps had best pick up Crimson Skies.

  • DefdumBlindkid #52 4 years ago

    too many 'proper' games out at the moment to worry about old crap

  • Flub #53 4 years ago

    I have the UK Psychonauts disk and it only runs in 50htz. Watch out if you're using VGA.

  • miiiguel #54 4 years ago

    I couldn't do the last fight on Crimson Skies, back in those days...
    Then again, I'll have the Evolved thing, more for historical reasons than anything else. Then back to next-gen (I mean, are we there already, Sony ?)

  • BillyBrush #55 4 years ago

    I still feel the Psychonauts review should have touched upon the fact Raz was annoying as fuckery and i wanted to kill him 2 mins after switching the game on.

  • spookyzombie #56 4 years ago

    These really do need to be 600 MS points. Until a time when you can't readily pick them up for around a fiver each in a games shops anyway.

  • Kryon #57 4 years ago

    @Mentalist(air)

    with this download initiative, as with any budget re-release scheme, the consumer is empowered to choose whether their cash goes towards the people responsible for creating and publishing game, or a retail chain.

    You're not getting the point! How am I, as a member of the public supposed to sell a downloaded game? You see, THAT'S my problem! Of course I hate GAME, they suck ( I used to work for them years ago when I was a student) but why should I lose out on the option of making some money back on a game that either I don't like or have completed or just don't want anymore for whatever reason? Yeah Psychonauts was a great game but that still doesn't mean I personally owe you anything (other than to purchase your game in a legal manner). I don't care how good (or not) your games are, if it comes down to a choice between cash in my pocket or 'subbing' you because your company isn't doing so well....Sorry but I'd choose the former I'm afraid... The only charity I give to is Cancer Research mate...


  • SomaticSense #58 4 years ago

    I must admit I was mightly interested in Psychonauts when I saw it up there, as I missed out on it first time and I have a gut feeling it'd be hard to get on disc nowadays. That is until I saw the ridiculous 5.3gb size (the 20 gig drive only has about 12gigs you can actually use, so that's effectively half the drive!), and then realised that if I ever did see it on disc it would likely be a lot less than the equivalent 1200 points.......

  • Darren #59 4 years ago

    @Kryon - Well the idea is that you'd pay £20 for a game from GAME or £10 for the download, the £10 being the amount you'd get if you sold it at a later date. Of course, it doesn't work like that as you can still buy Xbox games from GameStation and often for less than the £10.80 Microsoft are asking. Personally I think the games are slightly overpriced given that they have no second-hand value. £7.50 would have been a better price I feel.

  • Brakara #60 4 years ago

    Why no mention of Fahrenheit?

  • MGG #61 4 years ago

    Kryon

    "But why should Joe public lose out on making money back on a game they no longer wish to keep? It's not our fault if your dev team makes unprofitable games is it? I don't care about GAME making cash, I DO care about how much cash is in my personal wallet though. You make it sound like we owe you something because you're team is struggling after making an unprofitable/crap game?"

    So what you are saying is that you are just plain selfish and don't think where your money is going? Making games is a *creative* process, and like any creative process you never really know if a game is going to be a success or not until its pretty much finished. But unlike, say, music, it costs a hell of a lot to get a game to that stage. Again, games are more like films in this sense, but unlike films we only have 1 revenue stream, something the average punter does not think about. Films have 4 revenue streams - the cinema, rentals (and VoD), sales and TV. Games get no 2nd chance, unless you count reselling on a budget label, or something like XBL.

    "Edit - I'd just like to add, there are plenty of non EA games made by smaller teams that do commercially well so don't try and use that as an excuse. If you can't make money out of your chosen profession, don't blame us and don't ask for hand outs, it's degrading."

    Excuse? EXCUSE? ITS REALITY! Those small companies (and again, I have worked on successful titles at small companies) can have one top of the charts game, but if they don't release another one within 12-18 months, they are dead, it just takes longer.

    And at what stage was I asking for handouts? Unless you mean the handouts the UK "government" (I use that word carefully, the bunch of corrupt morons we have in the UK) give to the film industry, the TV industry and the music industry, but DONT give to the games industry. Oh you mean those handouts! I was simply saying if you don't want to pay the price being charged on XBL (in this case) you may want to think where you're money is going if you were to buy 2nd hand from Game, the bunch of robbing b'stards that they are too - I have seen them charging £3 less for a 2nd hand game than a new original, now tell me, is that not legalised theft to both gamers and developers?

    In the meantime, keep buying and trading your 2nd hand games, and keep watching the European development companies go bust. All the game development is heading to more enlightened places, such as Canada (state hand outs) or Japan. Of course, many developers are simply leaving the industry altogether - me possibly being one of them. And you cant tell me that is not a worrying change?


    Tyronne

    "I do believe I touched a nerve, however I will stand by my opinion that games are no different than any other product and as such should never have ANY special treatment when it comes to their resale value.

    Unless they release console games with a EULA which states that all the punter has purchased is a licence for that game and that they cannot resell it then it is no different than any other goods which can be bought/sold and resold."

    Umm, is this irony? Cos every game DOES come with that EULA last time I checked......

  • SomaticSense #62 4 years ago

    "I have the UK Psychonauts disk and it only runs in 50htz. Watch out if you're using VGA. "

    They can stick it then. Can't be arsed with the faffing around with leads.

    I'm not a tech expert, so I'm not sure how easy/hard it'd be to convert non-HD games into HD, but it would've been nice seeing as the 360 is a HD console and they are bothering to put them up for download.

  • Darren #63 4 years ago

    @SomanticSense - Yeah, the Xbox Download Service is going to be of limited use to those people without a 120 GB HDD unfortunately and I suspect that it may prove to be the undoing of this service in the short term, that and the fact that the games themselves are a little pricey. I'd guess at less than 10% of Xbox 360 owners having a 120 GB HDD so that means most people will be limited to just one or two downloads at a time. Obviously you can delete them but those with 20 GB HDDs aren't going to be able to build up a nice collection of old Xbox games that's for sure. With the 120 GB HDD selling for a frankly ludicruous £130, not many people will be tempted to upgrade either.

  • Darren #64 4 years ago

    @SomanticSense - There's no reason why Microsoft can't remove the region-locking from Xbox games and sell the US versions in Europe as they obviously all support 60Hz and thus VGA. They won't though so you're stuck with some Xbox games only supporting 50Hz.

  • MGG #65 4 years ago

    @Kryon

    "You're not getting the point! How am I, as a member of the public supposed to sell a downloaded game? You see, THAT'S my problem!"

    Why do you think you have the right? You are buying a limited license to use that game, you do not "own" the game at all. Yes, this needs making more clear, and yes, it really hasn't been tested in court - but there is a license there already on almost all non-freeware software, games or not.

    And stop going on about charity - no-one is talking charity, we are simply pointing out you can as a consumer CHOOSE where you money goes, whether you want the creators to have some chance of benefiting, or if you want Game to benefit. Its your choice.

    [edit - typo]
    Edited by 1 at 04/12/07 @ 14:04

  • SomaticSense #66 4 years ago

    So it's literally only the 50hz/60hz thing preventing some games from playing on VGA?

    Didn't know that. That's fucked me off now knowing that.

  • brainbird #67 4 years ago

    Let us rip the xbox originals we've still got in our cupboard to the 360 HD, Mr Microsoft. Thank you.

  • Darren #68 4 years ago

    @Brainbird - Erm... why would you want to do that when you have the game on disc? :?

    Are you sure your name is Birdbrain? ;) LOL

  • morriss #69 4 years ago

    8/10foroneofthebestgamesofthelast10yearslol!

    ;)

  • kangarootoo #70 4 years ago

    jesus, this tread is getting a bit grumpy with far too many touchy devs for good measure.

    Before we have to call in a whole fleet of waaaambulances, please allow me to add my 2p for balance.

    1. I am a dev.

    2. I like money, at a minimum enough to pay my mortgage, preferably enough to buy sweets and beer.

    3. I don't begrudge anyone trading in games, and indeed I do so myself.

    Complaining that people trading in games is taking money away from devs is like complaining that the second hand car market is taking money from car manufacturers, or that the secondhand CD market is taking money from musicians, or that the second hand furniture market is taking money from furniture makers.

    The point is, all of the above is absolutely true, BUT its also just a part of life. I'm not sure exactly what alternative the devs on here are suggesting should take place.

    Should we forcibly restrict the second hand market in games so that people have to buy our products at rrp every single time?

    Can anyone on here actually say for sure whether than would result in more overall revenue for us (let me answer that question for you... NO)?

    I occasionally buy pre-owned games. I also buy new games. Sometimes I trade in my games so that I can buy new games. Someone out there is buying my games pre-owned, and when I buy pre-owned I am buying titles that someone else may well have traded in against a new title.

    If all I could ever do was buy new games, I may well simply buy less of them. If I can't even trade them in after 2 months, I am perhaps less likely to buy new games in the end resulting in less money going to the deserving devs that created them.

    This is not a simple subject, so how about people stop pretending it is. Anyone who says "you should only buy new games, so the money goes to the people who created them " IS asking for a handout, because what they are talking about is moral obligation rather than a free market. Moral obligation, known by its other name, is charity.

    If I worked for a charity I would almost certainly be paid less than I am, and I can safely say that goes for the vast majority of devs. So in the words of Arnie, stop wining.

  • ParanoidZombie #71 4 years ago

    Trying to download Fable... Man, it takes ages and the download already failed twice. The third attempt seems to work so far, but I'm only at 10%... Did anyone actually managed to download the damned thing?

    EDIT: done! But I'm not sure this is the lost chapters versions... The main screen says "fable blahblahblah copyright 2004", and I'm sure the lost chapters have been released in 2005.
    Edited by 1 at 05/12/07 @ 12:03

  • yegon #72 4 years ago

    I would have bought Halo if it worked via VGA. Like someone said, would it really be that hard to flog the US version?

  • SomaticSense #73 4 years ago

    "If all I could ever do was buy new games, I may well simply buy less of them. If I can't even trade them in after 2 months, I am perhaps less likely to buy new games in the end resulting in less money going to the deserving devs that created them. "

    ^^^ The simple truth.

    By all means go ahead and restict the sale/buying of second-hand games (which would be against our legal rights as consumers btw...), but it means people like me won't then be able to afford your new games. I'd certainly be buying a LOT less than I do now, and so would many others.

    While we're at it, why not ban car boot sales?

  • mazzl #74 4 years ago

    just a little on topic.
    in the deashboard i can set the xbox to 50 or 60 mhz.
    will changing this to 50mhz make xbox originals or BC games work better?

    and i do buy second hand games, not rich enough to buy all new.
    it helpes stop me from pirating the games, so to me it makes sence.

  • Royal Fool #75 4 years ago

    One thing becomes obvious when these huge downloads appear on the marketplace:

    Microsoft should have added a bandwidth status meter so you at least have an idea of how fast your download is going. Asking people to download a 5+ GB file and not showing them any info is crazy.

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #76 4 years ago

    I do not propose that we ban secondhand games. I have probably bought as many secondhand games as most people here. BUT I'd prefer to buy ones that aren't preowned, if they're of comparable price, even if they don't come with a physical disc.

    Early posters in this thread were dismissing this download service as pointless, because of the pre-owned market, and I think that simply isn't true. Mind you, Nintendo's download service is rip-off central, and it's selling loads and loads, so I guess I probably don't have to defend these things, they'll sell themselves.

    Still, I think the pre-owned market for games in the UK is a little disproportionate, when you read about the likes of HMV trialling pre-owned sections. You don't see them doing that for records, or films do you?

    I suppose the solution is to make sure that new games are available cheaply enough that they are more attractive than secondhand ones. These sorts of £10 downloads (the equivalent of £3 DVDs in Tescos) will hopefully help with that.

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #77 4 years ago

    Actually, I'm reminded of how Bad Boys 2 on PC broke into the All-Formats top 10 because it was available for a couple of weeks at 99p.

  • Kryon #78 4 years ago

    @kangarootoo

    Thank you for being reasonable (as usual) ;) +1

    And to a certain twit who claims I'm being 'selfish' by not giving them financial gain out of my own pocket for nothing in return, I'm sorry but some of us have families to look after, hmm, should I give an unknown (to me) games programmer this 20 quid out of my wallet for nothing or should I spend it on my family?... Oh no! I better give it to the devs, wouldn't wanna look selfish or anything....

  • lennon #79 4 years ago

    A thought off the top of my head could I download the US version of Pyschonaughts and play it over vga?

    /wonders if im being stupid :)

  • banjo21 #80 4 years ago

    I think its a fine idea and a decent price if you haven't bought/played the game before. I aint seen Pyscho in the flesh and may give it a whirl. For anyone (is there anyone) that hasn't played Halo CE I'd recommend that over the newer offerings any day - in fact I wish I'd never completed it 24 hours after XBOX 1 release. But I'm not foolish enough to buy it again - why on earth would I??????

    I think that anyone who re-buys a game they have previously sold-on/thrown away deserves all they get in disappointment - just remember that waste of money feeling you were getting from Missile Command, Galaga, Gauntlet et al from XBLA once you'd got over the 20 seconds of going "look bro its just like it looked in the Arcade 20 years ago". I'm not saying the quality is poor - its just that once you've played a game out of your system, you've played it out of your system.

    Good idea which if at the right price will be used in my house.

    PS. Anything thats stops money going to GAME is fine in my book - whether its me not buying a used copy from them or trying to flog a used copy to them.

  • SomaticSense #81 4 years ago

    "A thought off the top of my head could I download the US version of Pyschonaughts and play it over vga?
    "

    Er yeah, good idea.

    Could anyone actually confirm this? I have a US account, and this sounds like it solve the prob.

  • squeakyg #82 4 years ago

    Good post, kangarootoo.

    I think most people have a fairly firm belief about how much they are willing to pay for a piece of entertainment. Some people (lets call them Group A) are willing to pay RRP because they have lots of disposable income and they think £40 is reasonable for 12 hours of entertainment. Other people (Group B) are only willing to pay less, because they are children, or parents of children, or casual gamers who need value for money.

    If you ban the second-hand system, all that will happen is that group B will stop being frequent gamers. The same number of Group A people will fund the industry as before. And the hobby of videogaming will be about as common as Games Workshop.

    Group B may not be funding the industry, but they add to the mass of gamers who build the culture of gaming. Their sheer numbers make videogaming more than just a geek hobby in the eyes of society. And every so often they'll buy a new game at RRP, or trade in a few games to buy a new one. Or get their non-gamer friends involved in gaming, who then go out and buy new games at RRP.


    Personally, I'm group A and B. I buy some games brand new, and some pre-owned. If a game came out more than a year ago and I finally get round to buying it, I don't want to pay £40 like the day it came out. Or if I know a game only offers a quick weekend of play, I'm definitely not going to pay £40.
    Edited by 1 at 04/12/07 @ 17:17

  • Feanor #83 4 years ago

    "There's nothing illegal about trading secondhand games. But with this download initiative, as with any budget re-release scheme, the consumer is empowered to choose whether their cash goes towards the people responsible for creating and publishing game, or a retail chain."

    Good point. When I go into a game store I will sometimes pay extra for a new version of a game just because I like the developer and/or publisher, while I only buy EA games when they are used.

  • brainbird #84 4 years ago

    @ Darren and whoever else cares.

    I want to be able to rip my xbox games to the 360 HD for convenience purposes. Nothing else.

    I've got tons of "old" games and I'd like to play some every now and then, wince they are fun online. But I've got them stored away (or on my modded xbox HD (see, it's possible)) and I'm too lazy to go looking for them every time I'm in the mood. Everybody with a large game collection knows what I'm talking about.

    You might think it's not impossible for Microsoft and their "programming ninjas" to offer a button in the dashboard where we can rip the games. It's the same game they offer as a download, ffs! But then again, you can't make money with it...

  • kangarootoo #85 4 years ago

    @SomaticSense

    "By all means go ahead and restict the sale/buying of second-hand games (which would be against our legal rights as consumers btw...)"

    Not strictly true, as we never own the games we buy. We have indeed simply purchased "a right to use". MS tried to stop people selling on copies of Window on ebay on that very basis, and actually succeeded.

    Not saying its right.


    @Mentalist(air)

    I think core to this is cost. One of the issues holding back this download service is that many of the games can be purchased pre-owned on disc for less. Regardless of the morality of it, we have two product groups competing for the same customer cash.

    If new games were cheaper would people buy more? Probably.

    But if new games were cheaper, would that make pre-owned games cheaper in turn? Almost certainly.

    Not sure what my point is this time... :)


    @squeakyg

    "Group B may not be funding the industry, but they add to the mass of gamers who build the culture of gaming."

    A good point. Some gamers may buy pre-owned all the time, except when they buy games for others at Xmas and have games bought for them by others at Xmas.

    That they exist as gamers at all means occasionally some of their money, or that of their friends and family ends up in my pocket, which as a dev with bills is really all I can hope for.

    And lets be clear, compared to piracy buying pre-owned games is hugely preferable (for the associated sale reasons I mentioned earlier).

  • kangarootoo #86 4 years ago

    @brainbird

    I suggest you are in the minority when it comes to ripping games you own for convenience. Regardless of your legitimate reasons for wanting such a feature, overall it would lose piles of money as it would be exploited dishonestly far more than otherwise. Companies can't base their business on an honest minority, unfortunately.

  • J.C #87 4 years ago

    I have the UK Psychonauts disk and it only runs in 50htz. Watch out if you're using VGA.

    Hah! i have the lost chapters pal version, and it runs through VGA!

  • AtomicBanana #88 4 years ago

    Already own all the good ones thanks MS :)

    On day one no less. I remember getting some of them on principle, even knowing they wouldn't sell well and thus could be had cheaper not that much later. Not that anyone else cared :D

    Psychonauts was fantastic, right up until that last level... eugh, horrible. I can't stress how fantastic it was up until that point though.
    Edited by 1 at 04/12/07 @ 20:35

  • SomaticSense #89 4 years ago

    "Hah! i have the lost chapters pal version, and it runs through VGA! "

    I wasn't aware a 'Psychonauts: Lost Chapters' version existed :\

    If you mean Fable, then the original non-Lost Chapters one also works through VGA anyway.

  • JackB #90 4 years ago

    To those that say, "You can find them cheaper somewhere else...".

    Yep, but it's all about convenience. I checked the Originals page on the Live Marketplace and seeing the Box art staring me in the face, I was compelled to "click" the box art and purchase.

    My will power held however and I abstained. Many will not.

  • AOFanboi #91 4 years ago

    1) The net price of a game to the consumer is price paid minus what they get for it when they trade it in or sell second hand. Remove the second hand market, and the net price increases thus making it less of a "good deal".

    2) The largest second hand market is run by the EXACT same stores (Game, EB) that are the channel for firsthand titles. By all means demand they drop that business, but since they make more money that way they will need to cut down on other inventory - most likely that would mean no quirky games like PsychoNauts and ICO in the stores. Do you want a world where all you get is EA Sports titles and Magic/Pokemon cards?

    3) The "you don't own it" crap is just industry fearmongering: You DO own the physical media the game is distributed on, and the in-game EULA saying you don't own the game is unenforcable in any European country that requires a contract to be available to read before deciding to abide by it. So you can sell the physical media you bought, and lo and behold, the game is still on it. The only way to "stop" that is the MMO way of having license keys you use up.

    4) Second hand only "damages" the makers while the full-price title is in print. As soon as it is out of print, second-hand is the way to get it. Also, if the manufacturer wanted to sell 50,000 copies they would print 50,000 copies, not 25,000 and expect to sell each of them twice.

    5) There are second-hand markets for everything under the Sun, including books, movies, CDs etc. but these have not made those industries fall down exactly.
    Edited by 1 at 04/12/07 @ 22:10

  • cobracotton #92 4 years ago

    I'm surprised people are moaning about 2nd hand game trades purchases whatever damaging revunue of developers... there is a simple a fix for this make great games that people rush out and purchase on the day of release for full price, rinse and repeat... (I would also like to say suck it up princess)

    There are so many alternatives to the high street retailers which as tech fans we should be considering push Game and EB out of business because they try to sell to you at over inflated prices...

  • jonnyreb #93 4 years ago

    Hmm, a couple of those will fit nicely on my newly acquired 360 Elite complete with 120GB HD :)

    And it's soooo much quieter than my 'launch' one.

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #94 4 years ago

    @Kangarootoo
    But if new games were cheaper, would that make pre-owned games cheaper in turn? Almost certainly.

    But with more cheapness of secondhand stuff comes lower profit margins of the people selling them, until it becomes not worthwhile and the secondhand market ends up back at the pawn shops, jumble sales and local independent stores where it belongs, not taking up 1/2 the space in the middle of hundreds of national chain retail outlets. Still, this is talking about the issue as a whole, and my (biased) opinion of it, which is not the point I was trying to make in the beginning.

    @AOFanboi
    Second hand only "damages" the makers while the full-price title is in print. As soon as it is out of print, second-hand is the way to get it

    Which returns me to my original point. With being released to download in this way, the 'Xbox Originals' titles are back in print, and at a reasonable price. And of course with the convenience of not having to leave your home to get them.

  • adamamosa #95 4 years ago

    m gonna be voting with my sterling and buying the first title that takes my fancy on xboriginals (probably Psychonauts). This is how I want to buy my games. And by the time Ive paid for petrol and parking its probably no more expensive.

  • SomaticSense #96 4 years ago

    I'm going to go and have a look at some of MY game's manuals to see whether or not there is any mention of the fact that I don't actually own them. I've never seen any mention otherwise in my games before, and if there is a mention of it that I've missed before, then I will seriously consider giving up the hobby.

    If I go out and spend upwards of £40 on a game, I expect to bleeding well be the owner of that disc. I expect to be buying the disc with the game on it, not just the rights to play it.
    Edited by 1 at 06/12/07 @ 13:16

  • Epitaph #97 4 years ago

    Can these be downloaded to the 360's HD, copied to my external USB hard drive and played directly from said drive?

  • djed #98 4 years ago

    the milkman conspiracy...
    that was one creepy mind trip, imho. It didn't help that I got stuck at the post office and ran around that level for a good three hours straight, doing nothing but talking to the MiB...

  • AOFanboi #99 4 years ago

    The creepiest was definitely the "hidden" areas of the disco-mind of the female agent.


    SPOILER!



    Where we learn that she used to be a orphanage caretaker who could not save the children from a fire. At the top level burned ghosts drift around complaining why they were not rescued. Not sure whether that fire was linked to the Milkman's arsonist tendencies. I gave up near the end because it was frustratingly hard to get to the little boy and rescue him from the giant rats if you mis-stepped and fell down from the higher platforms.

  • monkie_king #100 4 years ago

    PAL Halo: CE has some weird herky-jerky motion thing going on if you play it in 60hz (the original version anyway). Best enjoyed in 50hz, I found.

  • SomaticSense #101 4 years ago

    Well, where are the new 'originals' then?

    There's a new news update on the dash, which says you can buy them now, but they are nowhere to be seen! Got work in an hour and was hoping to get NBG ready for downloading before I went ready for when I get back as I feel it'd take a while :(
    Edited by 1 at 11/02/08 @ 13:43

  • kangarootoo #102 4 years ago

    Fahrenheit.... 9/10.... appalling stealth sections, over long QTEs and absurd plot.... grumble.... overrated.... etc.

    The screams never quite stop.

  • SomaticSense #103 4 years ago

    Those horrible stealth sections completely put me off the game. I completely stopped playing it after the second stealth bit.

    I though it was ok otherwise, although admittedly nowhere near 9/10.

  • Monkey_Puncher #104 4 years ago

    I'm really tempted to give Black a go, I'll have to make some space on my hardrive though me thinks.
    Edited by 1 at 11/02/08 @ 13:45

  • Ryze #105 4 years ago

    Yeah, the repetition in the stealth sections (reload, reload, reload), the dodgy camera, annoying QTEs, and some dull button mashing had ruined parts of this game.

    Potentially a 9/10 - but I reckon it's a 7 thanks to the flaws.

    With all of these games trying to be movies, it'd be nice if they remembered to include a 'rewind' function, allowing us to avoid sitting on load screens to go back 25 seconds worth.

    Definitely worth experiencing, though - and on the 360 running off the HDD it should be more than bearable.

  • kangarootoo #106 4 years ago

    I should add I played Fahrenheit right through, and it had come good moments. It was not however, the saviour of the story driven adventure game it purported to be. I am old enough to remember the real classics that could show Fahrenheit how to tie its shoelaces.

  • coach_mcguirk #107 4 years ago


    I have the UK Psychonauts disk and it only runs in 50htz. Watch out if you're using VGA.

    Yuck. I guess this answers the question I was going to ask - namely, I bought a cheap copy of the PS2 version, and it was so retina-obliteratingly ugly that I gave up playing it. It was also 50hz only. Was wondering if the Xbox version would be easier on the eyes.
    Edited by 1 at 11/02/08 @ 14:40

  • JackB #108 4 years ago

    For the 1,000th time. Xbox Live and Digital Downloads of anything have a convenience factor to consider. You sit on your nice sofa at home and click a button. You can often find someplace, somewhere to buy these for less money, but that's not the point.

    They are often hard to find, and even at times at a higher price and you may have to make a special trip to play them if you decide on a Friday night you'd like to try Psychonauts or similar. One click. Done. People often spend way too much time trying to save money. Others just jabber about saving money hypothetiically, but haven't actually checked to see if the game they want is in stock somewhere locally at a lower price.

    It's the same with movies on-demand. Convenience is worth something.

  • atrus #109 4 years ago

    Can anyone on here who's previously owned and played NGB to death assure me that it still works well enough on the 360 for me to still enjoy it?
    IMO Ninja Gaiden Black is emulated nearly flawlessly on 360 - and upscaled to HD. As you say the old games don't work, but apart from that its brilliant. I've played it all the way through to the end and had no problems with the emulation.

  • kangarootoo #110 4 years ago

    "People often spend way too much time trying to save money. Others just jabber about saving money hypothetiically, but haven't actually checked to see if the game they want is in stock somewhere locally at a lower price."

    Truth.

  • systems #111 4 years ago

    Thank god they added Ninja Gaiden Black - I've only seen it on eBay.

    It's a shame that Fable is the original version though and not the expanded one. I can get the later Fable for cheaper than the download on disc.

  • convercide #112 4 years ago

    I have NGB and Halo on disc. The only one here that interested me for download was Black. I had it at the tail end of the PS2's life but never got into it. I don't know why. It's really good. Looks damn amazing on my HD telly too.

    I just wish they'd make Deus Ex 2 backwards compatible. I've never played it and it was £5 a while ago at GAME so I bought it assuming it'd be popular enough to make the list. It hasn't and I don't think it ever will. :(

  • Beek4257 #113 4 years ago

    Just downloaded Fahrenheit, cause I never got round to it first time (works fine through VGA, btw). Intriguing is a good discription, I guess. Dated graphics are irrelevant for a game such as this. At this point, I really want to know how it al pans out. This in spite of the WORSE THAN HELLISHLY ANNOYING in-game camera.

    NGB is next, after I'm finished with DMC4. Makes for a nice comparison piece. XBOX vs 360: FIGHT!