Xbox 360 leads PS3 by 1m in Europe Comments by Tom Bramwell

"exclusives??? you gotta be kidding me... have you seen the amount of top quality titles recently released for the PS3?? have you seen the titles coming out in 2009??? i dont want to bring a list in here ;p

seriously, PS3 will crush the Xbox360 in short time... mark my words. Price drop, exclusives, home, BluRay... = big success."

Teeheee! So easy to bait. Truly entertaining.

I dont know why people always want to add the cost of the wireless adapter to the cost of the xbox. I have an xbox and am happy using a wired connection as its more reliable and up to 10x faster than a wireless connection. I admit that the ps3 is a better gadget overall, but £299 is a lot especially when other consoles cost £170. The true fanboys and serious gamers bought their consoles when they had just been released at ridiculous prices and now the market that the consoles are fighting for are the casual gamer who are not bothered about MGS4 being better than GOW2 or Fable II being the GOTY. The reason why the wii is in the lead is in part largely due to its lower price from the beginning.

"Sony declined to comment on the GfK Chart-Track figures"

No spin...no fun

I'll be surprised if Sony are still in the console buisness by xmas 2009 lol

The ps3 has been a massive flop for them, they're losing a fortune on it. They had to sell millions more ps3's to get some money back.
The only thing that can save them is lowering the price, but they can't afford to do it.
What a mess!!!!

Heavy rain and killzone 2 will be big flops, only god of war 3 will help shift some ps3's(if sony are still around next year).

Hmmm.. Vorlon seems to be back from my ignore list. New account?

appologie

"your just a sad fanboy who can accept the truth... PS3 is growing in user base, "

Correct, but it's growing at a lsower rate than the 360.

"exclusives and on-line features and as soon as the price drops, there will be millions flying out of the shelves... right now given what you pay for (on-line for free, hard disk included, AAA exclusives, BluRay, good reliability (altought reliability as i can see it's not a very important issue nowday's, at least for some of us), nice pack's etc..) "

There won't be a price drop in the near future. AAA exclusives.. LBP and.....possibly uncharted... BLuRay is what's keeping the price high. If they hadn't chucked that in they would have shifted it for a lot less and shifted more.

"its the best quality/price product you can buy... next year, even with the economic crysis that benefits both WII and the Xbox, we will see the PS3 dominating, no doubt... as soon as they start to sell the console for 299 Euros, its game over for Microsoft. "

Err it is under 299 Euros....

I thought this year was the year of the PS3.. are you now saying it's next year??

Do we really care? As long as both systems still get great games made for them... ?

We should only start to care about these sales figures if it means a DREAMCAST situation is upon us, which we all agree it probably isn't.

So for october and november sales have been pretty even .....someone tell that to the vgchartz guys that put the 360 heavily outselling the PS3 those two last months.

Sad...people arguing over an entertainment device. Get both and enjoy it all.

Why do people bother arguing with apolol anymore? It's like trying to have a conversation with the crazy guy who mumbles to himself in the street.

Anyhow, these are good figures for MS. France and Germany both HATE MS and the 360, and MS is likely losing there already to the PS3, so to still have a 1m lead considering that is pretty solid. They must be pretty far ahead in the UK, is my guess. Sony claimed a ways back that they'd have the 360 beaten in the UK by 7/08, so looks like they had to push those plans back a bit.

Funny that Sony has no comment when they sure were quick to say something a couple weeks ago about their lead. Now that the real figures are out, what could they say?

And stop quoting vgchartz! They know NO-THING! They said themselves that their figures were guesstimates.

So for october and november sales have been pretty even .....someone tell that to the vgchartz guys that put the 360 heavily outselling the PS3 those two last months.

@Diomedes

Forget about vgchartz. The NPD says PS3 sold 378,000 consoles and the 360 sold 836,000 in November 2008. That's over 450,000 more sold for 360. So what damage control do you have for the PS3 now?

edit: In October 2008, NPD declared there was 371,000 360s sold and 190,000 PS3s sold.

Total 360 for Oct & Nov in NA = 1,207,000
Total PS3 for Oct & Nov in NA = 568,000

"While you mumble to yourself on internet forums about how important it is to you that brand A sells more than brand B, because it seems to make your life a little better."

How can you act so smug like you're above the topic, yet comment in here anyway? And it appears I am not mumbling to myself seeing as you've read and commented on my post!

I also forgot to apologize for being interested in sales. How very petty of me to take interest in something that you're not particularly interested in. I bow to your maturity.

This place seems very well suited and more than ready for my tinfoilhat-shop.

Why do some people have a downer on VGChartz?

They use a similar panel analysis techniquel to NPD but worldwide rather than US only; NPD's figures aren't super accurate you know they are guestimates too, both of these are providers use a similar approach to TV ratings.

VGChartz website says that their numbers are used by "Fortune, Business 2.0, Forbes, The Telegraph, The Guardian, New York Times, Süddeutsche Zeitung, Guinness Book of World Records and the New York Post to name but a few" and I've also seen them used on industry sites such as GamesIndustry.biz and mcvuk.com

So if VGChartz are good enough for the press, Guinness Book of World Records, and industry journals ... why aren't they good enough for certain forum posters?

It's not related to what their figures state is it?

@ StooMonster

VG's estimates for console sales are "relatively" accurate, but it doesn't take a genius to make a guesstimate these days. I wouldn't put much stock in them, though. They basically take sales from a few shops and then multiply that by "x" to come up with their numbers...I think they employ mostly teenagers to do their "studies." Their game sales estimates are horrible and shouldn't even be attempted.

Just wait for official numbers and you'll be much better off. Or do a comparison of their estimates for a month against actual numbers. Sometimes they're close, sometimes they're not. Their sales figures for around the world are only as accurate as the information provided to all of us, and then they "estimate" the rest based on known shipped or sell-through figures.

Xbox sellling more than the PS3. With the price drop... colour me shocked. Was this outcome not obvious? And is there really a need for this many posts on every single story that mentions both consoles!?

Also Portsmouth FC FTW

I just love seeing the Sony apologists out in full force, they seem to be dominating this discussion actually.

@ ronuds

If you're not into statistical analysis, Google or Wiki "panel analysis" or "panel data" for a brief explanation. As I said, VGChartz panel analysis is similar to NPD's ... and their technique is similar to how TV ratings have been calculated since the 1950s (i.e. small "representative" sample and scale up).

NPD are only "official" because they have been doing it for longer and charge lots of money for their data, they probably use interns rather "teenagers" to phone the retailers to get the data, although I believe some retailers give them point-of-sale data but that won't make their panel analysis much more accurate; and they are of limited utility because they are limited to US retail only.

The general press and games industry press seem to think VGChartz are okay; and I've seen publishers cite their figures too, so they can't be that bad. Certainly good enough for the use of armchair/desktop pundits pontificating on the relative market-share of the participants of the multi-billion dollar games industry.

@ StooMonster

Are you certain NPD doesn't get most data from the US? I thought all outlets but Wal-Mart reported their figures to them, so it would seem they would end up with a much more accurate figure than VG could ever manage. Not 100% certain, but that was my understanding of how it works.

The problem is that there are only a couple agencies even interested in keeping these types of figures, so no matter if you're 100% accurate or not, any number seems like a good one to outsiders! I tried going by VG a while back, though, and was bitten by it - so I don't take them at all seriously anymore.

@ retibra

Who "officially recognized" them? What does that actually mean?

VGChartz may be newer and have a different approach, but their figures never seem far off the ones provided by market research companies -- and they are good enough for the international press, trade publications, and industry participants (i.e. publishers and developers) ...

... but they are still not good enough for discussion forum? :)

@ ronuds

Last time I checked NPD only had retail data and no online sales or download; and aren't Wal-Mart the largest retailer of games in US?

I am not saying VGChartz are perfect, but it just amazes me that they get slammed on forums such as this one yet so many other people such as the press etc are happy to use their data and figures. :)

[Edit to add Wal-mart comment]

On an aside, I don't know if you're all seeing the same 'I'm a PC' advert as I'm seeing ('The Tron Guy'), but nothing would make me want to buy a PC less than being associated with people like that...

@ Stoo

Not sure about Wal-Mart being the largest seller of gaming supplies. I'd think that crown would go to either Gamestop or Best Buy. NPD estimates their figures, though.

I think the reason VG gets slammed is because they have in the past been horribly inaccurate. As I said, I was quoting them to people once, thinking I was cool or something, as they were the only source predicting the 360 was doubling sales of the PS3. Turns out it was the 1st month the PS3 beat the 360! After that I decided to wait on NPD, Charttrack, etc. O_o

Take away Sony's dominant brand and market position from the previous two generations and they'd have been crushed by now. Only the RROD problem saved them.

If both Sony and Microsoft had have started this generation with the same market share, brand and customer loyalty then it would have been a knockout by Microsoft in the 1st round.

Next generation Sony won't get a free pass. The rest of this generation they'll be struggling to lower prices, but each time they do Microsoft will lower prices and/or throw money at the problem. Sony's cost of manufacturer are just flat out higher than Microsoft's. Tough position.

@ dobbie

Fine ... you hates them, and some site bans hammers people for citing them ... oohhh they must be wrong then!

I've seen VGChartz quoted in mainstream press in UK and US, as well as the gamesindustry.biz and other industry rags, even Eurogamer.net uses their figures. Can they really be that bad? Or are you commenting on the quality of journalists? ;)

I completely agree with you about getting the "representative" right, my opinion (which you'll note that I haven't stated yet) is that they are potentially directionally correct and therefore not 100% accurate, it is my view that NPD and ChartTrack are better ... but they are not perfect either. To "win" an argument with one over t'other is a hollow victory in my books. :)

Sony know they are going to have a bad Xmas, its pretty apparently from the lack of PR stuff coming from them for a start... with the cheap Xbox (which I will think will come back to bite MS on the butt)..they know they are going to take a PR/Sales hit...

But you know what, if Sony can stay in business and drop the price of the PS3 early next year, I still think there is a good chance they will begin to eat in to MS's lead quite quickly. There are quite a few potentially strong games for PS3 next year, and the RROD for MS really is a massive problem and will never truely go away (the word Scoda or Lada reminds me of lack of quality..even after all these years). I really think is MS had their act together when they launched they really could have been where the Wii is... but rush job opened it up for the Wii.

Interesting times for sure!

Apologie, I see you're back, and still a dick. Even though I don't like petty insults, it's kind of more descriptive in your case - not in the literal sense of course, that wouldn't make sense. I thought you said you were leaving the site for good? What happened? Really, I'd like to know.

Djflex92


We were speaking about European numbers ,no US ones.We all know november has been quite bad for the PS3 there compared to the other two consoles.

But in Europe the official source is GFK ,and they are saying sales for october and november are alike for both consoles.....but vgchartz is putting the 360 ahead by nearly 2-1.I pointed it out in their forums and got banned by one of the (wii) fanboys they have as mods .

Well i still say spectrum is better than c64 and that geen screen thingy..............

Who gives a flying fuck, i have a PS3 and i am happy with so bollocks to the lot of you.

HA!

Just to share a couple of thoughts:-

RROD IS a pain in the butt, initially handled horrendously by MS, but then they curried favour with the 3 year guarantee extension - I've just had a brand new Oct 2008 console delivered to me within a week replacing my Oct 2005 360, along with a Free Month's Gold Live subscription; it took one free phonecall, a spare cardboard box and the cost of a metre or 2 of sellotape and one label printout. Can't complain with that.

Just like most electronics companies, Sony are taking a real hammering at the moment; Sony Ericsson reported record losses, sales of LCD's are massively down and it has more than halved it's profit forecast for next year - and this following on from the year it lost more than £2 Billion because of the PS3. Also a pain in the ass for Sony is the Yen's increasing strength, further squeezing profits (so much so that prices of TV's, DVD's etc are actually due to increase).

People are really, MASSIVELY under estimating this coming recession and the effect it will have on the average family and ergo companies supplying expensive non essential items. electrical or otherwise. With all the uncertainty and huge debt many people have found themselves in, I'm sure a £300 Console/Blu-Ray player is not top of their shopping list - a Wii or 360 will do for now to compliment the family DVD player that can see a further year or so's use.

Now if demand is down, production will be reduced, so when a PS3 45nm chipset comes onto the market I would not be so sure of big price cuts (especially as this will be post Xmas "Credit Card Bill time" Jan-Feb-Mar), simple economies of scale and all....

The people on here saying £300 is not a lot of money are either too young to remember the last recession (negative equity and all), are convinced their job is totally secure, or live at home. In all but the last case you're lucky...

@ Diomedes

This thread has the worst use and overuse of the word "official" I've seen in a while. The preeminent provider of game sales data in the UK is Chart-Track, which GfK bought a large stake of in July 2008, and for September through November they showed 360 outselling PS3 by at least 2 to 1 and sometime up to 3 to 1 -- plenty of news articles on games sites.

UK is the largest market in Europe, and measured on its own is the third largest market in the world after Japan and USA; according to ELSPA the UK also has the most mature players in Europe with average age being 33, but I digress.

In regard to November, GfK-ChartTrack data suggests that the 360 outsold the PS3 “across the entire region and in particular has seen significant gains in markets like France, Spain and Italy, where it has been outselling PlayStation 3 week after week.” EDGE http://www.edge-online.com/news/microsof...

"[360] sales are up 32 per cent and PlayStation 3 sales are down eight per cent," confirmed Chart-Track's Chris Poole. GAMESINDUSTRY.BIZ http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/xb...

So where do you get that GfK says that 360 and PS3 were head-to-head in Europe since the 360 price drop?

HAHAHAHAHA!!! 1mill lead....is that all.....surely 2million 360s have RROD'd is that factored in? Just by reading this site , you'd think the lead would be 40 to 1. Guess the console crowd make-up round here is an is disproportionate to the real world's.

So Sony empire is crumbling in Europe,oh wait Nintendo took that crown years ago...lol

Well done MS, your business strategy has seen you displace the playstation brand in Europe into 3rd place!!!

Completely inconceivable at the start of the generation

Sony's losses are going to get bigger and bigger.

Kudos to EG for cutting through the PR crap and telling it as it is, hope you dont get into trouble!

VGChartz may be newer and have a different approach, but their figures never seem far off the ones provided by market research companies

That's because they retroactively adjust their figures when more reliable data is released by professional retail analysts.

everyone keeps talking about price cuts

sony just had its share guidance downgraded because of under performing sales

they haven't broke even on PS3

And now you think they're going to slash prices on their lead home entertainment product

the fact is, only a 50% price cut is going to encourage people to buy it in this climate, and sony aren't going to do that, because it'll REEK of failure

they've painted themselves into a box with that PoS3 that they now cant get of

it stuns me that fools like apologie will run out and defend Sony, talking about what bastards MS are, when Sony, sold a sub standard, feature reduced machine here for twice the price of any other territory.

""HAHAHAHAHA!!! 1mill lead....is that all....."

Rather amusing how a 1m lead is now viewed by some as 'not very much', but when PS3 overtook 360 earlier in 08 and were leading in Europe by no more than around 300,000, Europe was being lauded by the faithful as "Sony's heartland".

Those with bizarre unshakable console allegiances will tell themselves all sorts of things to make themselves feel warm & secure.

Is that all?

It's been out a year longer

Sorry if i'm stating the obvious, but wouldn't Microsoft and everybody else expect the 360 to be leading in europe after being on sale for 15 months longer than the PS3?

Headlines like this are misleading, it was the same when the 360 outsold the PS3 in Japan for 3 or 4 weeks, in real terms this didn't make a blind bit of difference, as following this, when the PS3 outsold the 360 again, the margin was more than the total amount the 360 sold during those weeks!

Personally, as a gamer, I don't care who's winning, all I want is great games, great exclusive games! as long as they both sale enough units to keep this up we should all be happy!

"Sorry if i'm stating the obvious, but wouldn't Microsoft and everybody else expect the 360 to be leading in europe after being on sale for 15 months longer than the PS3?"

Not when mainland Europe (France, Germany, Spain, Italy especially) have been wedded to the Playstation brand. The US and UK are far less brand conscious when it comes to consoles, maybe because console gaming has been big for decades well before Sony entered the market. In mainland Europe, consoles = Playstation in the general public mindset. PC gaming is also far more popular. Most of mainland Europe held out for the PS3 because of the brand and ignored the 360's early release.

It's worth noting that the 1m lead is still mostly because of the UK, where 360 has a 1.5m-ish lead over PS3 just on its own (which represents almost a 2:1 ratio). Mainland Europe was outweighing that previously, but now it's not anymore. Still, if you exclude the UK the PS3 is doing better than 360 in Europe. But the UK is also the largest and most mature single gaming market in Europe. Make of that what you will.

"Not when mainland Europe (France, Germany, Spain, Italy especially) have been wedded to the Playstation brand. The US and UK are far less brand conscious when it comes to consoles, maybe because console gaming has been big for decades well before Sony entered the market"

I agree to some extent, but you could argue playstation is responsible for making the industry what it is today, the Playstation made gaming 'cool' and it did for consoles what Hoover done for Vacum cleaners. Don't get me wrong, i'm no fanboy, i never owned the original playstation, i had the saturn, but when that was released it didn't have nearly the same impact...

Even so, sales figures are going to change based on many different things, price is expecially important to people at the moment, and there are many people waiting for the big PS3 exclusives beyond MGS4.

I think competition in the market place is important, this will give us all better games, and great games are far more important than sales figures.

Realistically Sony has the engineering knowhow and bandwidth to do this

Not for Home they don't lulz

It is the cheapest home console on the market (appart from PS2 i think) and it is the most advertised, it's not rocket science.

If anything taking those two factors into account I'd have expected better sales... but whether MS want to admit it or not... the Wii is killing their efforts.

"I agree to some extent, but you could argue playstation is responsible for making the industry what it is today, the Playstation made gaming 'cool' and it did for consoles what Hoover done for Vacum cleaners. "

If you're under 25 maybe. I agree that PS shook things up in the late 90's, but so did every generation of home gaming platform - and each iteration more people got involved. That's as much to do with pop culture, the increasing average age of gamers, and the general march of technology as any individual company's efforts. I wouldn't say Playstation was any more important in the grand scheme of things than Atari in their day, or Sinclair / Commodore, Nintendo, Sega at their height etc. Each successive generation that sells well brings in more punters - at the PS time it just made good business sense to market to teens / young adults rather than kids because the market was getting older. This time it's Nintendo's turn again with the Wii, responding to the over-emphasis perhaps on the mature over time. It's all cycles.

The issue is that some environments are 'older' than others. Mainland Europe 'grew up' with Playstation in many ways - console gaming was never big there before that. The US and UK both have a longer tradition of gaming so remember that there were other revolutions before Sony came along, and will be others afterwards - so brand loyalty isn't such a pervasive force.

Edit: yes, I'm a relatively 'mature' gamer. More than 25 years of gaming under my belt and counting. For the majority of that time, PS didn't exist ;)

"Edit: yes, I'm a relatively 'mature' gamer. More than 25 years of gaming under my belt and counting. For the majority of that time, PS didn't exist ;)"

I thought so, nice to read something interesting in the comments, and something that makes sense rather than just sales figures!

I don't think they even bother with Wii sales figures anymore, The Wii has opened the market to a new audience that the PS3 and 360 still don't really appeal too.

seriously, PS3 will crush the Xbox360 in short time... mark my words. Price drop, exclusives, home, BluRay... = big success.

you have been saying the same shit since launch!

wake up retard!