Wii Music Comments by Ellie Gibson

"It's not the first time nintendo have released rubbish. They did it with the N64 too. We still all bought the Wii."

some of us didn't, jonsaan

@smelly - Well I'm someone who owns a Wii as well as an Xbox 360 and PS3 but I'm not afraid to voice my criticisms of the Wii and Nintendo when I feel they deserve it.

And, IMO, Nintendo deserves criticism for focusing almost solely on the casual market and totally ignoring those people, the hardcore fans, that helped make them a success in the first place. As others have said also, this will be the first Christmas I won't be buying a single game for my Wii and that is deeply disappointing. If I didn't care then I wouldn't be commenting.

Wii Music might be a great game for 6 year olds as you put it but where are the games for the older gamers like me then? Having games for young children isn't a bad thing at all but it is if that's the only first-party game on offer this Christmas!!! Where have all the Nintendo classics gone...? They seem to have dried up around June... :?

"the hardcore fans, that helped make them a success in the first place"

(looks at cube sales figures)

how?

"Where have all the Nintendo classics gone...? They seem to have dried up around June... :?"

If you're talking about 1st party nintendo games.. Nintendo have published more higher scoring better selling games in the last 12 months than any other publisher.

So to say they're "ignoring" the hardcore is ridiculous.

How many 1st party games have sony or microsoft released exactly? The only 1st party game microsoft have released recently (to my knowledge) is banjo kazoiee (no idea how to spell it, cant be arsed to check) - a kids game

what type of review was this

i've a head ache

i just wanted over the top theatrics, and mad videos

now i see students being involved, and all sorts of crazy shit....

bring back Dominic diamond

"
Indeed, and if you were a gaming web site you might have someone who usually reviews games in a similar genre to review something like Wii Music. "


Oh you're Soooo right.. yes.. she's a GIRL.. that means she's PERFECT for reviewing games aimed at kids... sigh...

'and I have LOTS of friends whose kids LOVE it (my nephew does too!). '

but its not out yet, i find it hard to believe they all have it early imported wii music to play on an imported wii (remember these are casual users) and have played it enough for this to contain any truth.

I think you'll find that Fable 2, created by Microsoft-owned Lionhead, got 10/10 here.

i've said this before

the wii is not a games console. its a toy.

its a toy, that can, from time to time, play video games, but for the most part is nothing more something to wiggle your nuchunk at

Just to clarify : I dont intend to buy this game myself. And my 360 is currently getting more use than my wii (I'm still addicted to skate 1 year later, and will buy the new one in january - also about to get mirrors edge).

'(looks at cube sales figures)

how? '

they made lots of ££ from it.
no it didnt sell as well as they had hoped.

"'ve said this before

the wii is not a games console. its a toy."


I'm sorry to break it to you.. but all games consoles are toys..

When you're running around on screen in your latest shooter thinking you're all grown up.. all you're really doing is playing with a fake gun. You may as well be running around with a piece of plastic shouting "dakka DAKKA DAKKA!" at other kids doing the same to you.

Playing games.. is *shock* playing with toys.

Oh you're Soooo right.. yes.. she's a GIRL.. that means she's PERFECT for reviewing games aimed at kids... sigh...

Did you not actually read the list of reviews I linked to? Ellie is probably the internet's most experienced reviewer of games aimed at the casual market. I think it not incongrouus that we get an opinion of Wii Music from the same person who scored Wii Fit an 8.

"they made lots of ££ from it.
no it didnt sell as well as they had hoped. "

So you're saying - appealing soley to the hardcore market didnt help them, and they ended up with a machine which sold about as many units as the xbox did?

So perhaps maybe the hardcore DIDNT put them where they are today? But the mainstream did?

Just like in he nes era when 1/3rd of american households had a nintendo.. i dont think they were all "hardcore" gamers - do you? Mind you, nowadays "hardcore" just means "violent sweary carbon copy game with guns designed to appeal to teenagers who think that makes them look grown up"

"Ellie is probably the internet's most experienced reviewer of games aimed at the casual market."

What a load of garbage.. and it doesnt make her 6 years old either does it?

*sigh*

Going around in circles - should know better than to try to disagree with the "MAINSTREAM" gamers on here.

Wii is crap.. WiiLol... A grown up is more than perfect to review a game for kids.. WiiLol..

Wii is a toy, wii is for kids.. WiiLol...

360's arent toys, they're for grown up teenagers who like to think they're grown up and not playing with a toy.

WiiLol


(it's like being in a room full of big brother lovers and trying to educate them about, erm, anything)

@ Smelly

How many 1st party games have sony or microsoft released exactly? The only 1st party game microsoft have released recently (to my knowledge) is banjo kazoiee (no idea how to spell it, cant be arsed to check) - a kids game

Erm... that's not a first party game. Rare made it. I know as a Nintendo fanboy you refuse to accept they exist since they left Nintendo's loving arms but they deserve the credit for that middling game. But if you're going to class games that are part of Microsoft Studios as 1st Party then in the last month alone they've released Gears 2 & Fable 2.

I dunno what to suggest to improve things. But it seems that if you're a "hardcore" (i.e. pretty visuals, good story, no gameplay) shooter, the reviewer starts with a 10 score in mind (before actually playing), and subtracts if they find anything wrong.

Accusing shooters of having no gameplay in a Wii Music thread made me chuckle.

Its just dawned on me however - the same kids who are saying "wii is for kids" & "wii is a toy" - Are probably the EXACT same kids who have a plastic guitar hero fake plastic guitar toy under their tv.

"Accusing shooters of having no gameplay in a Wii Music thread made me chuckle. "

Yes you're right.. that should have read "carbon copy gameplay of all the other shooters - play one, play them all"

What a load of garbage.. and it doesnt make her 6 years old either does it?

Oh, I get it. You're saying that only people predisposed to like something should review it, and everything should get 10/10?

Good luck with persuading six year olds to submit 1500 words of copy for your website. I wonder if they'll win Ellie's online writers award next year.

Shigeru Miyamoto: GENIUS

@smelly

No, I don't think so. I don't believe Eurogamers target audience is "family" or "kids" or even "casual" I think it's pretty obvious that Eurogamer's target is the "core" market, therefore it's entirely appropriate that they review games with that target audience in mind. Nintendo may consider this a core title (at least I half-remember Cammie Dunaway encouraging us to check it out in an E3 interview where the interviewer asked where the core games were) but for teens and adults Eurogamer think this is a 5.

If you want a site that reviews games with kids or family in mind then they must exist, it's just not Eurogamer. It is not a failing with this site it's just unreasonable expectations on your part. That said, a Eurogamer spin-off site that reviews these games with younger players in mind would probably be a good idea.

While we're at it; glad to see you wheel out your tired old "if you don't like this you're only interested in grey and brown shooters" strawman for anyone who doesn't fall head over heals in love with this with. That's a bit lazy, to be honest, and is about as applicable as the flip-side argument that if it doesn't look like a rainbow on acid or it contains an actual game then you're not interested in it.

Both assertions are equally bullshit.

I was looking forward to this game (love playing these Mii games with my brother and sister) but looks like I'll give it a miss after that review. Oh well, gonna buy Rayman Raving Rabbids 3 instead :)

sigh.. so many replies.. right.. one at a time:

@kinky_mong:

I was replying to the assertion that nintendo have stopped making games for the "hardcore", and that they're only focusing on kids.

I pointed out that nintendo 1st party have published more higher scoring, better selling "hardcore" games than sony and microsoft.

And you reply by telling me microsoft dont make 1st party games.

Erm.. how does that disprove my point?



@sneetch: "herefore it's entirely appropriate that they review games with that target audience in mind. "

I agree.. But then who IS reviewing games like this with the INTENDED target audience in mind? And surely it's better for a site like this whose target audience is clearly not the same target audience as this game to not review the game at all? For example you wouldnt see a punk music website reviewing the latest westlife (yes i'm out of touch with pop) album would you? Because its not their demographic.

And NO i dont expect this game to get a 10. I dont intend to buy it or play it (im not the target audience - im sure it'll bore me senseless as much as halo3 did - but then im not the target audience for that either), and so i dont know what score it should get. Im just pointing out the idiocy of a grown up reviewing a game for kids without watching a kid play it to see if a kid would like it or not. Its like getting me to review a shooting game... I certainly wouldnt give halo3 any where NEAR a 5 out of 10 (for example)

I have LOADS more to say on the subject but:

a) I cant be arsed as i'm talking to a load of deaf ears.
b Im late for work

I've not read any of the other comments in this thread, nor do I intend to, because I suspect they will largely compose of fanboys beating each other about the head. I really just wanted to congratulate Ellie on a very well-written and informative review. Far too many of the write-ups I've read of this game have felt purely like subjective screeds or blog posts; by featuring extensive analysis from music experts, this one feels like a rational, objective breakdown that went a long way to answering many of the questions I had about the intent and execution of the game's concepts. Cheers, EG! :)

For example you wouldnt see a punk music website reviewing the latest westlife (yes i'm out of touch with pop) album would you? Because its not their demographic.

Aha! But you certainly would expect a punk music website to review Marky Ramone's new album of Westlife covers. It might not be intended for their demographic but it is within their sphere of interest.

I believe that may of eurogamers' wii owning readers were hoping against hope that Miyamoto's influence might have meant that Wii music was something more than it appeared to be, and was actually really good fun, or of genuine usefulness (like Wii Fit). But it wasn't, and we deserved to be told, rather than have the matter swept under the carpet.

smelly in response to your lengthy review of the review, I feel this one concluding paragraph that you may have missed summed up Ellie's issues with Wii Music succinctly and well:

"Not all videogames have to be about cars or guns, and I don't believe every piece of console software should have to be a videogame. I do think software should be entertaining, or educational, or preferably both. Wii Music isn't very entertaining and it's not very educational. There aren't enough goals for it to work as a game, and there's not enough musicality for it to work as a toy. It's not clear what it is or who it's for. One thing's for sure: it's not worth forty quid."

That's not missing the point at all, that strikes me as a fair appraisal. They may be Ellie's issues, but they're issues that a lot of EG readers will understand, relate to, and base purchase decisions around (either for themselves or young relatives), and I think it would be entirely fair to do so.

That said, even mitigating for any absence of that paragraph, the reason it's being judged from a 'grown up' perspective is because EG is a website for 'grown ups', it doesn't cater to children, as you rightly pointed out.

That said, it's a moot point because ellie does try to review it regarding its worth as a program for children, as you can see in that paragraph I quoted, and she thinks it has shortcomings. That's no worse - indeed it's much better - than the conceit that you somehow ARE able to see this from a kids point of view, and guarantee that a parent's young kids might love it. Frankly I think the childhood me would be bored shitless by something like this. Maybe not, though. Or maybe I would but after an hour of vague smiling and a warm feeling of pleasantness subsided.

Incidentally, and this is a topic for another day: If you were hinting at this, and I apologise if you weren't, it does not, and should not require 'journalistic training' to be a games journalist. I think it's fair to say that formalised 'journalistic training' deals with a type of journalism that is somewhat more demanding (probably a bad word but still) than opinion-based specialised forms of journalism such as this (or film reviewing, theatre reviewing etc and so on, which for the record is a form of journalism I have a great deal of time and respect for). An arts degree would instead perhaps be the most appropriate qualification for jobs such as that (arguably still an arts degree is also a more than adequate form of training for more news-based journalism but again this is off topic).

I agree that games journalism has a lot of room for improvement in general, mostly in terms of writing quality and the need to find more interesting things to say, but I see no real problem with this review. I also think your suggested formula for how EG writers come up with their review scores is a bit patronising at best, at least in terms of EG reviews.

@smelly
"a) I cant be arsed as i'm talking to a load of deaf ears.
b Im late for work"

On a)
No, not deaf ears. Sure some people will never change their minds at all but others are more interested in debate and quite open to convincing. However, in my loooong years on this wonderful internet of ours I've come to the conclusion that a lot of people won't actually read what's been written, rather they read what they want to see, inserting tone and "implications" into whatever it is so that it will back up their opinions so they can then throw their hands up and roll their eyes at the "dense" people they're dealing with. From your posts I get a sense that you have given up a long time ago hence your repeated assertions that we're all FPS lovers who aren't interested in novel or original games any more and just want another grey and brown blah blah blah despite the fact that that is just a ludicrous and indefensible load of old bollox.

As for who should be reviewing this, I think you are right, kids are the appropriate ones to review a kids game so I think an ideal review process for a kids game (but not for this site) would be an attempt to capture and transcribe the experience children have with this.

That said, at the end of the day this is a game and Eurogamer reviews games, it's their "demographic" so to speak, it's entirely appropriate for them to review this one. To continue your analogy they're not a punk magazine they're a music magazine.

On b)
Screw 'em, the fate of the world depends on this. ;)

"There is a difference though. Like the difference between someone that only listens to chart music or the huge bands that fill stadiums, and someone that had a huge collectiono of music, most of which many people havent heared of and goes to gigs every weekend.

Or between someone that only goes to see blockbuster movies and someone else that goes to the small independant cinema to see the latest independant movie or can name that 10 films that any actor was in."

The problem with this comparison is that it positions "hardcore" fans as the ones who seek out the unusual, the obscure and the innovative and the "casual" fans as the ones who simply favour the big, obvious mainstream options. In music and movies, that's true. In games, the dynamic is reversed.

Hardcore gamers gravitate towards long-running franchises that generally feature lots of shooting. They certainly don't favour independent games, or offbeat ideas. I don't think, for instance, you could make the argument that Gears of War 2 is the equivalent of a limited release indie movie or an up-coming unsigned band. While most refuse to accept this, the most innovative or unusual games are generally the ones that fall into the "casual" bracket - from The Sims to LittleBigPlanet. Hardcore games tend to have impressive production values but fairly stagnant ideas.

"Going around in circles - should know better than to try to disagree with the "MAINSTREAM" gamers on here. "

I'm not sure everyone's got a problem with Wii music being "for casuals", one of my fave games is Rock Band and that's as casual as anything, I think quite a few people have a problem with Wii music being absolute fucking dogshit, and knowing it's going to outsell genius stuff like LBP not because of any intrinsic merit, but because N know how to exploit their user base. Anyone thinking N give a monkeys about cultivating gaming in general has just had their illusions shattered with this cynical cash-in.

I fucking hate the wii. With a burning passion.

Btw, I don't understand that "age segregation" thing (on the video-game products), I can have fun with a kids game, when it is a good product - Viva Piñata, for example. I think it's wrong to say "nevermind the flaws, it's ok, it's for a kid, can be rubish...". Like I really enjoy a good (pre-teen) animated movie , like "Finding Nemo".

@sneetch: THANK YOU! For wanting a decent discussion on this.

- I'll reply back to you during my lunch break :-)

Everybody say they want to be indie
Everyone say they want to be hardcore
...

"Everybody wants to be Hollywood,
The fame, the vanity, the glitz, the stories"

>"nevermind the flaws, it's ok, it's for a kid, can be rubish..."

But being "rubbish" is subjective.. Case in point.. I think both halo 3 and bioshock are "rubbish" - millions of people disagree.

Their opinion is no more right or wrong than mine though

I guess..., any qualitative adjective is subjective. But you said the review should indulge (?) its flaws because its target are kids (I could have read it wrong though...).

[funny mode]
Regarding Halo 3 being rubish..., well, that's not subjective at all, that's plain wrong, because Master Chief is the video game icon of th XXI century. He's a god with a helmet. ;)
And Bioshock is digital poetry.
[/funny mode]

Basically, they made a bunch of great games for the Gamecube which didn't sell. So now you can't really blame them for making a load of '' games '' in order to make insane profits.

Meh, I'm still keeping my wii though. I know there are some third parties out there who can take advantage of what the console has to offer ( Madworld and No More Heroes 2 sound appealing) and Nintendo is bound to churn out something good every now and then. Hopefully F-Zero, Pikmin and something new, original and fun *waits for people to snigger*. >_>

And although I also hold disdain for the tedious wii hate, I wouldn't go as far as to say that the only games being churned out for 360 are dull and lifeless and contain no gameplay. I'd say gameplay is their main selling point, but most of them tend to lack originality or the ability to move the player in anywa emotionally or mentally. No real '' wow '' moments. Don't dismiss the wii but don't dismiss the 360 either.

I don't see why people are laughing so much either, I seem to recall everyone loving Wii Sports when it first came out despite not being that good either. ( still better than wii music but you see my point) I guess I personally would like it if Nintendo changed their current image a bit, maybe focused 35% of their adverts on '' hardcore '' nintendo fans. But mainly because seeing a cheesy family playing Mario Kart, with dad laughing that something had eaten him as if he didn't know what was going on tears me apart and gives me sleepless nights.

@DanWhitehead: I agree to an extent.

I dont see the "hardcore" shooter fan as anything other than the mainstream casual gamer he so desperately is trying not to be.

But to carry on the music analogy - the shooter fan is into mainstream pop/rock music which has been spoon fed him. However he isnt into the ultra casual gaming (cooking mamma for example) which is more aimed towards the young bubble gum pop market (the sclubs of this world .. yes im aware im out of date with pop music).

The "hardcore" elitist snob gamer (the "indie music" fan who seeks out obscure bands) is the gamer who bought okami/psychonauts

"nd Nintendo is bound to churn out something good every now and then."

they're only 1 company at the end of the day.. and something like mario or zelda takes YEARS to make and many many many people to do it.

So it's understandable they're not releasing a new zelda/mario every month or something isnt it? ISNT IT?!?!?

"mainstream casual gamer he so desperately is trying not to be"
Not me..., I'm very confortable with the mainstream crowd. I've had my "cultural revolution". I can now appreciate mainstream with no complexes whatsoever.

You say I'm not underground
I'm rich, I'm famous, I'm vanish, I'm glitz
I'm the story, I'm the star you know,
Like the Big Dipper

"While most refuse to accept this, the most innovative or unusual games are generally the ones that fall into the "casual" bracket - from The Sims to LittleBigPlanet. Hardcore games tend to have impressive production values but fairly stagnant ideas."

+1

Why can't you guys make these kind of points in the articles themselves but keep them reserved for the comments section?

No matter how many beardy 30plus-year olds try to deny it, gaming is still predominantly an industry for male kids. It's apparent in the type of games that reach store shelves and in the fact that 95% of the big titles are still released during the holiday season amongst others.

I would say that Wii Fit was a fun but serious attempt at getting excercise.Though it didnt work on many levels, it still can be fun and make people think about their weight/excercise.

The main problem with Wii Music as i see it is that it achieves nothing useful. I know smelly has said its aimed at young kids, well fair enough... but then why do all the adverts feature in most cases adults playing the instruments? I think Nins marketting approach is lets get everyone to buy it rather than say its aimed at kids. But anyway.

The thing is Nintendo seem to have got lazy, what could have been an excellent way to teach people to learn basic music in a fun way (like getting people to excercise in a fun way), is just move/wave/waggle your arms about. I purchased a Wii because i felt that Nintendo had a real chance of bringing real feel to gaming - like your taking part... but they have sadly fell apart as the hardware and software is becoming more inadequate and cheap looking :(.

So are we being forced to buy this or somethig?

Hopefully no one buys it... is the general feel from this topic :D

So it's understandable they're not releasing a new zelda/mario every month or something isnt it? ISNT IT?!?!?

@smelly

So developing/releasing a new IP this generation is out of the question for Nintento? Do they have to only release zelda/mario/metroid etc. games?

Both Sony & MS have released new IP's for their new game systems. And 3rd party developers have made new successful IPs like LBP, Dead Space, Assassin's Creed, Bioshock, Uncharted, Resistance, GeOW, Mass Effect, etc. What 3rd party devs are making for the Wii aren't the equivalent (ie No More Heroes, Zack & Wiki & Boom Blox) to the big productions made for Sony & MS.

>I know smelly has said its aimed at young kids

Just the way i see it thats all.

I personally have no intention of buying it - but i know a lot of kids of friends of mine who enjoy it.

How the hell this managed 5/10 I have no idea. Have lost pretty much all faith in Nintendo at the moment. Not that they'll care, but I do hope they start making some old fashioned videogames at some point, all this lifestyle software is getting a bit much.

As I've said since I found out how the stuff worked:

Good idea, poorly implemented

Im sure my kids would find it fun for 5 minutes, but because they cant learn anything from it, they will just move onto something else.

This is a game for 6 year olds to make noise with, and I have LOTS of friends whose kids LOVE it (my nephew does too!).

So? Lots of kids love Candyland as a timesink, but it sucks as a board game. This site is NOT geared at six year olds in case you thought it was. I mean, every review could be made worthless by saying "this game is a 10/10 for someone who loves it" but then we might as well drop the scores.

Hey, good idea.