Wii is most popular console in the UK Comments by Ellie Gibson

'Super Mario Galaxy, Twilight Princess, Metroid Prime 3'

I have these three already :)

'Trauma Centre 1 and 2'

Borrowed the first one off someone because i already had the DS version so i didn't see the point in buying it again. The controls are just broken on the Wii version and i'm very confused as to why i seem to be one of the few people that noticed this. The Wii-mote is nowhere near as good as the DS stylus for the precision movements that are required. Gave up on it in frustration and have no desire to play the sequel.

'No More Heroes'

Another one i borrowed. Terrible, repetitive crud. I don't care if it's supposed to be a statement on the games industry in general (MAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNN), it's still a terrible game.

'Super Paper Mario'

I forgot i bought this! I was mistaken in my earlier statement. That's 5 Wii games i own. It was very good but not as good as PM2 on the GC.

'Zack and Wiki, Fire Emblem'

Might give these a try.

Still though that maybe 7 games in nearly two years. I've bought about the same for the PS3 in the past week.

7 games for YOU. Remembering that people don't all think/like the same is the key here. This is why spouting lists in an effort to prove the validity of a platform quickly crumples.

You know, the Wii doesn't have to be the console with the most games for you to enjoy them. If you only enjoyed 7 games in two years, so what. As long as those games were fun then I don't see where the problem is.

There's no way I'd consider buying a single player game on the Wii. I get a bit retro every now and then but playing the Wii on anything but a party game is the equivalent of rubbing two sticks together to light my cigarette. Given the choice between playing a Wii game or a 360 game, heck even a PS3 game at a push, I wouldn't choose the Wii.

There may be non-party games worth owning on the Wii if you don't have a PS3 or 360, but the fact is the Wii's games catalogue is utterly dreadful, and the online service is so slow and clunky that I just can't be bothered with it to try out the WiiWare games.

It's a godawful machine with a catalogue of absolute tripe. Until friday night, then for a couple of hours it's the star of the show. I'll sell it the very second a waggle controller is announced for the 360 though.

farticusmaximus: There's no way I'd consider buying a single player game on the Wii.

Zack and Wiki just wouldn't work on any other system.

@spudsbuckley: As Trauma Centre shows this is more an issue with your taste rather than the lack of quality on the Wii. Perhaps time is needed to adapt to the remote but the far quicker utensils swapping enabled by the nunchuk is fantastic.

"Zack and Wiki just wouldn't work on any other system."

I take it you didnt see the flash version of the ice key scenario then?

there is nothing more annoying than a self-proclaimed 'hardcore' gamer. they probably think playing mainstream stuff like gears, halo, cod etc makes them hardcore. come across as some of the most insecure, selfish and close-minded people you could meet.

What's your definition of hardcore then?

My definition of hardcore is Ikaruga, chained to perfection.

@Santino

You mistakenly identify a 1:1 link between 'hardcore' gaming and first person shooters. It's a nebulous term, not linked to a genre but rather to a gaming mindset.

'Hardcore' gamers value, amongst other things, depth of gameplay, longevity, tactical play, challenge and a high level of control in their games. This includes genres such as RPG's/JRPG's, RTS, strategy, board games, stealth games, simulators, beat-em-ups, and many more.

'Hardcore' gamers are not satisfied to make the same stupid waggle movement 1000 times as the sole requirement to complete a game.

I advise re-evaluating your concepts of close-mindedness.

So it would be someone who completes SMG with all stars with Mario then Luigi, who had unlocked all courses on Excite Truck and completed them to S ranking and who had found all the heart containers and secrets in Zelda then?

my definition of hardcore?

cant say i have given it much thought really i dont see gaming that way. I usually just play all kinds of games from a wide variety of different genres and have fun doing so. i spend a stupid amount of money on my hobby, have a pre-order on a £150 arcade stick, own a gaming pc and all the consoles. i would define myself as a gamer.

i guess if someone deserves the title of harcore gamer it could be someone who has played a specific game so much that they reach a level that very few can reach.

all i know is that the definition of 'hardcore gamer' being thrown around on message boards every day is completely wrong.

farticusmaximus is about right in my opinion.

"i guess if someone deserves the title of harcore gamer it could be someone who has played a specific game so much that they reach a level that very few can reach."

That's it. Simple. That's what a hardcore gamer is pure and simple. They exist and there's no use pretending they don't just because the idea makes one uncomfortable. There will be plenty that will proclaim their hardcore credentials but that's just another case of dick waving. The proof is in the pudding. I realised a long time ago what hardcore means to me and can accept I don't have what it takes to be that kind of gamer. I'm comfortable with being just a gamer.

So we've established that there is a hardcore gamer and a market for the hardcore gamer. Next up we will get to grips with the concept of people who don't actually want the same type of games as those people and the idea that the market for that is pretty large. After that we'll also come around to thinking that perhaps, just perhaps that both can exist and both are 'right'.

@Widge

I don't think anyone is denying there is a market for both types (apart from Les. Hardcore is a myth, 320x200 is all the res you'll ever need).

The problem is that there is far, far more money in the casual market and the HD console manufacturers are having this fact rubbed in their face every minute of every day.

Their solution? dumb down games, if the casual won't buy hardcore games then force the hardcore to go casual.

It's not a hypothesis, it's not a problem that 'could happen'. It's happening right now to our established 'hardcore' games.

Prince of persia was always a challenging game. Now it's an extended cutscene where you have to keep the A button held down.

We will see many more of our favourite franchises dumbed down. This kind of shift in the games market does not just go away.

prince of persia got dumbed down because ubisoft are poor at coming up with compelling gameplay experiences, if anything blame the impressive sales of ass creed on the so called 'hardcore gamer' consoles for what happened with PoP.

actually, i hope you are talking about old school 2d prince of persia when u say hardcore as well. not the last gen games such as sands of time, is that not where you would walk into a room and get shown a 'flash forward' of what you had to do, or just rewind time when you die? all of this was before anybody had even swung a tennis racket in Wii sports.

and also, casual games have always been huge, it isn't a new thing that started this generation.

@farticus

Precisely. Last week, Wii Sports became the best selling game of all time. Sort of a misleading stat because of it's inclusion with every Wii console i guess but look at the stock shortages that Wii Fit experienced.

It was also reported last week that both Tomb Raider:Underworld and MGS4 had sold pretty abysmally.

The casual market are the ones buy the Wii and Wii Fit. The gamers are the ones buying TR:U and MGS4. Who do you think the devs are going to develop the majority of their big budget games for with stats like this becoming increasingly prevalent?

i didn't buy MGS4 as i was put off the series after MGS2 (loved MGS1) and honestly as a gamer and reading about the game the game/gameplay ratio just didn't sound like what I am after, it is for some fair enough. but those MGS4 sales are not bad for the kind of interactive experience that it is so don't panic, they will probably make another.

in the case of tomb raider i guess it is more to do with the series becoming less relevant and people losing faith after a lot of bad games.

why don't you look at sales success stories like cod, gears, gta4 and think again about those kind of games being replaced?

This is what worries me.

You are both being paranoid. There's a lot of money to be made of gamers who like a challenge or a deep experience. Look at the sales on WoW for instance. This is the reason why every film isn't a Pirates Of The Caribbean movie, every book isn't a Jordan biography and every album isn't from an X Factor contestant.

There are developers on ALL platforms creating interesting and exciting stuff.

I know a lot of people (including myself) who mostly play the Wii for the wide array of Virtual console and Wiiware titles. You can play titles from Turbografx-16, Neo Geo, Commodore 64, you have releases like World of Goo. If that doesn't make it a system that pleases 'hardcore gamers' then I don't know what does.

I can play those games for free on a PC.

what is the problem? mario kart is a fun game enjoyed by loads of people so prob deserves to be the best selling game. loads of people bought gta4 as well. Fifa and CoD did very well also and they are games that are released on a yearly basis.

farticusmaximus
13-Jan-09 14:15:13

"Zack and Wiki just wouldn't work on any other system."

I take it you didnt see the flash version of the ice key scenario then?

I wasn't referring to porting of the game; instead I meant that of the 3 consoles available, besides the lack of appropriate pointer device, the game just fits the Wii. Additionally using a pointer alone also takes some of the fun out of playing the game.

spudsbuckley
13-Jan-09 15:41:50

I can illegally play those games on a PC.

Fixed ;)

On a more serious note most people don't have their PC connected to their TV so for example playing "Secret of Mana" co-operatively isn't the same.

But your CODs and GTAs cost a lot to make whereas the majority of Wii and DS stuff costs peanuts to develop and has a massive return on investment.

Dev's and publishers are in the business of making money so this fact won't escape them for long. FIFA is never going to die though :D

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26654...

Another definition of hardcore: 0.40 sec in. The speech bubble says it all really. Anyone know where I can get the whole of the fight from?

spudsbuckley, Do you think Treasure sit in their offices thinking about the next big money making game? No. They make the games they like. I know it can be a cynical business, but the games market is big enough to cater to all sorts of tastes. Your fears are premature. Take a chill pill.

@ Rash

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pS5peqApgUA

not the best quality but still, awesome comeback, it looks all over midway through the round

'spudsbuckley, Do you think Treasure sit in their offices thinking about the next big money making game? No. They make the games they like.'

Bullshit. Game's companies exist to make money.

If they did it just for the love of making games then why not give them away instead of selling them?

spudsbuckley, Well, duh! Of course! The point was; do you think they will suddenly abandon the gaming they are renowned and loved for because, oh, there's more money else where? No. As someone else said you're being paraniod.

Santino, Nice one! Thanks. It is such a brilliant clip.

Okami, the best game ever made, is best played on wii. End of argument. Forver.

'do you think they will suddenly abandon the gaming they are renowned and loved for because, oh, there's more money else where?'

Yes. They're a business, renown and love means nothing to them. They exist to make money.

Relax both of you, it's probably a bit of both. Everyone likes money, but love and adulation are good as well :D

yeah i wish they were making something like Sin & Punishment 2...

There are a LOT of real hardcore games on the Wii that pass kiddie/teenage gamers by - take 'Final Fantasy Fables: Chocobo's Dungeon' for example - Which is a rogue game (with friendly graphics) - Anything more hardcore than a rogue title for the 360/PS3?

The problem is if they others (Sony/Microsoft) follow the example of why push boundries and sell at a loss when you just use your last effort with a waggle stick and make a profit.

Progress would stop.

"Adding Waggle" only works up to a point in terms of sales; to continue to sell well a franchise needs to develop and improve.

Not all Wii games have waggle and not all games use the console as it was designed. Some games are abominations as was to be expected but the more inventive games have generally been overlooked by the public probably down to perception of what they think games are or should be.
Wii also has the strange demographic where parents buy it for the family but the kids (or teenagers) aren't into family friendly fun and want blood, guts and violence (some things never change) so it is not seen as a console for teenagers or people who just want violent games.
I'm enjoying some good/great games on Wii and PC at the moment so I'm happy. I expect the Wii will have some very good titles this year and I hope it's perception will alter gradually.

Wii is the the most popular games console... The Sun is the most popular newspaper... reality shows top the TV ratings...

There's a connection here, I'm sure.

If being hardcore means you have to debate endlessly whether the PS3 or the 360 is the best console, then I'll pass.

I've been a longtime fan of Nintendo starting with the Nes and then a super nintendo. I was late getting both of those but got a N64 and Gamecube fairly quickly after launch. I looked at what the wii was offering and decided against buying one as it amazingly didn't appeal to me. I didn't really want an underpowered low resolution console even if it did have a new controller. I tried a wii a few times in shops but just couldn't justify the money. So many wii owners are honest enough to admit the games are generally poor and the console is underused. Even shop assistants honestly admit how poor wii graphics are and yet the console sells massively. Although people go on about the hardcore, casual gamer divide I wonder if its really a singler player, multiplayer experience thing. I'm much more into the single player experience. I love first person shooters but not where you just run about shooting other human opponents in a small area. I'm more into the challenge set by level design against computer opponents and working through a story like Half Life. Hats off to Nintendo they can sell such dated technology at such inflated prices though.

There is also the other "argument" in favour of the Wii that hasn't been mentioned this time around (we normally get drowned out anyhow)

That would be the "used to be a 'hardcore' gamer but now have a family/mortgage/whatever"

I know plenty of people around my age (27-30) who grew up with their Atari 2600s, Master Systems, NES, Mega Drives, SNES etc and were seriously into their gaming, plunging hours and hours of those wonderfully easy going school days into games. Fast forward and we have families, other priorities etc, but still want fun gaming experiences, just in smaller doses (because that's all they have time for now), the Wii caters for that market beautifully. It offers loads of 'traditional' gaming experiences, which ironically are now overlooked as 'casual' by the new guard of hardcore gamers (I'm generalising here)

Some people, for example, wonder how the hell I managed to spend months playing Wii Play, as the vast majority have dismissed it as a free disc bundled with a remote. Tanks!, for example, transported me back 15 years (in a good way) the moment I picked it up, above all, it's fun.

@IronCladChicken

Chocobo's Dungeon - good example of a 'hardcore' game on the Wii, but I can't help thinking the nature of the game combined with cutesy graphics is not going to be a recipe for success. I hope it does well as it seems like a good game. I was given a demo runthrough by DrDamn on Friday and it's got more depth than the average dungeon crawl by the looks of it.

Still, this kind of depth of game is a very very rare thing on the Wii. For every Chocobo's dungeon there are 50 'Drongo's happy waggle party' games, and the waggle party games sell considerably better.


Arkadian Warriors on XBLA is essentially the same thing. Spent quite a lot of time crawling through that one. :)

But in response to your question, yes there are as hardcore or even more hardcore games on other platforms. Rogue-like games are not all that in-depth to be honest. For example all you need to do to kill an enemy is walk into it repeatedly! Yes, you can use special attacks but most of the time you don't need to.

The most harcode games I can think of are probably stuff like Chromehounds. Mech games have always been ultra-nerdy.

This "hardcore" "real gamers" "casuals" bollocks has almost totally put me off games.

I'm quite happy playing Harvest Moon with the woman, and delving into retro/PS2 games. I go round my mates and all they ever play are FPS (mainly Halo 3), and frankly it bores me to death - especially since they take it all so seriously.

"This "hardcore" "real gamers" "casuals" bollocks has almost totally put me off games."

I fail to see how terminology can affect your enjoyment of a game. If you had never heard those terms would you still have the same taste in games. Would you still play harvest moon and retro games?

The fact that your friends play other game styles than you has nothing whatsoever to do with terminology, just personal tastes.

Terminology? It's the attitude, silly. I can't relate to most gamers these days because I don't exclusively play the most dazzling graphics-fest with the realistic bullet-physics, or whatever. Similarly, they don't understand how I could possibly sit and play a game where I milk cows, or a game with a 16-colour palette. It's an attitude I get/see everywhere.

I do, however, find it funny that you can be called into question because you like to play games from the 80s/90s. If you prefer to play Pac-Man over Call of Duty. Hilarious because the blokey blokes who spend thousands on the latest equipment will think you're GAY, when in fact Pac-Man has got me into more conversations with girls than masquerading about a 50" HDTV and massive gamer score XD

But yes, it's the casual/hardcore attitude to gaming that puts me off it. What happened to just having fun? It's all such serious business now...

@Daryoon

Fair enough, but I'd still say it's just your friends preferences not matching your own that's the issue, rather than some generalised 'hardcore' mindset.

I'd consider myself a hardcore gamer but I'm just as happy trying to master Viva Pinata or Beautiful Katamari as I am shooting folks in the face with extreme prejudice, just as I'm happy playing retro games or Wii sports or Boomblox.

I can only think of one person I know that turns their nose up at a game because it's not on the latest hardware with maximum pixels. Most of my gaming friends have the latest hardware but very varied tastes in actual gameplay.

If your friends call you 'a gay' for playing pacman then I'd suggest looking around for some new friends, or maybe 'educating' them about the head with a solid wooden object! ;)

Terminology? It's the attitude, silly. I can't relate to most gamers these days because I don't exclusively play the most dazzling graphics-fest with the realistic bullet-physics, or whatever,

Does that matter though? I still read and contribute here because I'm interested in gaming generally, but as far as actual playing goes, I seem to be the opposite of 99% of people here (and firmly in the minority of people who enjoy playing the Wii)

I couldn't give a darn what the mainstream is doing, just buy what you enjoy and forget about everything else...and there is plenty out there worth playing, especially with WiiWare, XBLM etc etc. I've spent weeks and weeks playing the likes of Tanks! on Wii Play, according to most here I'm in the "casual who is ruining gaming" category, but it doesn't matter as long as I'm having fun.