WarHawk now download-only News

stupid

why?

do they actually know their asses from their elbows?

Can you imagine the size of the download.

To think this was, at one point, one of the most exciting games on the PS3. Must really be going through development hell...

Idiots. Hopefully the game deserves better.

That makes more sense, seeing as it is online multiplayer only.

It also gives them more room for expansion through microtransactions as well.

Sony, please make up your damned mind!!!

Thanks.

Sony not knowing arse from elbow shocker! Is it me or is Warhawk going from "the reason to buy a PS3" to "the reason the sixaxis was a waste of effort"

I think Warhawk would work better a downloadable game anyway as the flying footage I saw on GameTrailers.com looked really superb but the onfoot sections look undeveloped and clumsily animated, not what you'd expect for a full-price disc release. As a downloadable multiplayer arcade game, a kind of Battlefield-lite if you like, selling at £8 it looks fine though.

I should think that most games on the PS3 will work better on the hard disk as Blu ray access is very slow. In fact I think a lot of games on Blu ray are allowing big sections of code to be put on the hard disk to speed up access.

Download only for an online only game. If you use your brain to think about it, it makes perfect sense.

@DAMAGE.INC.

But its an online game! If you don't have online, you don't want to buy it.

Its like moaning that you can't drive to the tyre shop because you don't have a car.

I think people are making a huge mistake when they confuse the delivery medium with the game content itself. The stigma that people associate with download, you would think we were living in the 80s. Did Half Life 2 change nothing?

The_Programmer - "I should think that most games on the PS3 will work better on the hard disk as Blu ray access is very slow. In fact I think a lot of games on Blu ray are allowing big sections of code to be put on the hard disk to speed up access."

That seems to be the gist of it but then it's what the Xbox did too. However, the PS3 takes it one step further by allowing you to install the games on the HDD (but still requiring the disc to boot). It's not something I'm too keen on as I suspect it'll lead to lazy optimisation; why should developers spend times tweaking a game's loading times if you can install it?

Because of the worries about slow-loading times, I've bought a 160GB 2.5" SATA laptop drive to swap out of my PS3 once I've got the machine up and running (and registered for my free copy of Casino Royale on Blu-ray!) this Friday. I want to install Linux on it at some point so I'll format the drive with two partitions, a 120 GB one for the PS3 itself (which should be ample for downloaded content and game installs) and the rest for Linux. (I've read that you have to partition the drive if you want to use Linux...)

@The_Programmer
"Blu ray access is very slow"
Blur ray (or HD DVD for that matter) is much faster than DVD... I really don't think game programmers can use that as an excuse to start having installs on a console. Having said that, I do think it benefits certain games to go download only... If it saves a good game from going down the drain, then it can only be a good thing...

"But its an online game! If you don't have online, you don't want to buy it. "

I agree!

I would have preferred they dropped the online mode and made a good singleplayer game, but at least they are honest and drops the singleplayer mode and focus on online instead of shipping a sloppy singleplayer game like so many other games (Battlefeiad 2 anyone?).

WTF? I thought WarHawk was some uber jet-fuelled aerial combat masterpiece Sony was rolling out for the PS3 and now it is just some cheap downloadable online-only arcade game. ROFL.

Tis very obvious that Sony is very confused at the moment. No doubt panic is setting in with poor hardware and software sales (poor in comparision to the other players not poor compared to it's old sales figure. They like to say Ps3 is selling better than ps2 did - well that doesn't count today Sony)

Sounds like they make press releases to get a reaction. If it doesn't get a good one they just change it.

Gand Tourismo went the same route - why? Because it wasn't good enough for a full release.

@Skooch

Where are you getting you information from? You need a refund because it's wrong.

"I thought WarHawk was some uber jet-fuelled aerial combat masterpiece Sony was rolling out for the PS3 and now it is just some cheap downloadable online-only arcade game."

It's not ... still the same game technically and only stripped of singleplayer mode.

It's not like smaller games like you see on Xbox Live Arcade.

When looking at gameplay videoes from the game, it looks great and reminds me of Battlefield.

@zuljin

yes BluRay accesses the disc aabout four times faster than DVDs but the DVD drive you get in (say) the XBox360 is 12 times the speed of standard a DVD player. Also I think the comparisons average speed, as BluRay always reads at the same speed and DVDs read faster on the outside (where most of the game data is) than the do in the middle. A lot of talking has been done on this but it essentially means the 360 will read disks about 66% faster than the PS3 (the PS3 reads twice as fast as standard BluRay) for the data on the outside (where the time sensitive stuff will be (if the developers bothered optimising)) and about the same speed in the middle (which contains the least amount of data and will only be used if the DVD usese all 9 gig). Of course the only thing this really effects in loading times as RAM speeds are rediculously fast.

"You need a refund because it's wrong."

@ McBradders - I'll queue up behind all those disgruntled PS3 owners on March 24th. :P

@Skooch

I think it's time someone put you back in your playpen.

@Raya

WTF are you talking about? GTHD was never a fully fledged game to begin with, it was basically a glorified GT Prologue with Microtransactions tacked on.

The mis-information in this one comments section is shocking.

I've heard that the PS3's 2X Blu-ray drive reads 9 MB/sec and the 360's 12X DVD drive reads at 15 MB/sec. The PS3 is quoted by Sony in the specs as having only 8X DVD reading speed so the 360 can obviously read data 50% quicker than the PS3 can. I suspect that the Blu-ray loading speeds are the reason Sony opted to include a hard drive as standard as this allows for Xbox-like caching as well as PC-a-like game installs to counter the slow loading times. Without a hard drive, I suspect that loading times on the PS3 would have been unbearable.

I guess it possible it'll be released online in europe and on BD in america. Maybe.

"RexRunti" Is correct about Blu-Ray read speed!

"zuljin" Doesn't know his arse from his elbow! Just like Sony!

@Skooch

You clearly haven't seen or played Warhawk.

@dllord
The data transfer for Blu Ray and HD DVD are compared to DVD on here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu_ray

"BluRay - 54.0 Mbit/s, HD-DVD - 36.55 Mbit/s, DVD - 10.08 Mbit/s "
In all cases, NextGen drives have faster data transfer.

pwnd.

Maybe it does make sense to have an online only game as a download only game, but there's no denying this is giving a poor impression.

After all, to begin with Warhawk was billed as one of THE launch PS3 games. We then hear rumours about developer problems and now it's an 'arcade' game?

Hmm...

Sony in U turn shocker..

@Overlush

"but there's no denying this is giving a poor impression. "

I would politely suggest that it is not the download function that is giving this impression.

If I were feeling less polite I might say sterner things regarding the facts being distorted by people's preconceptions (and I do love to fly off the handle sometimes) :)

Example in point.

"and now it's an 'arcade' game"

It simply isn't. People are incorrectly making that assumption because they have cast iron opinions on what download is all about.

Was HL2 and 'arcade' game? Or does a pirated copy of any game you can think of, downloaded by torrent, become an 'arcade' game.

Its just download instead of disc. It means nothing more or less than that.

Zuljin read the peoples comments thoes read speeds are on 1x drives. Which non of the systems have when you take into account the 360 has a 12x DVD rom you can see the BR drive is seriously slow.
Hence current games are using a lot of space on the disk to create redundancy and increase speeds by lowering seek times.

Bluray-Download-Bluray-Download.

They cannot make their minds up.

@kanga,
At the end of the day the concern is valid as the download is not going to come in at anywhere near 9 Gb the size of a full game so there will be less textures, less objects less modes etc at the end of the day if you limit the size of game to make it downloadable you hoble the game. If you don't your PS3 is going to run out of space pretty quick what with huge downloads, it being the cental media hub for your home with all your music on it, and having to cache all your games

@kangarootoo

I know it's not an aracade game in the LIVE sense of the word, but I put it in ' ' to emphasise what I think Joe Bloggs may make of it. IMHO it says: we didn't achieve what we set out to achieve, so here's this instead.

As someone who's a single player kinda-guy, I won't be investing in it wheras I probably would have done had there been a good campaign - something which I think we all assumed there would be.

I'm sure the game will be great whichever way it's delivered, I just wonder what messages the last minute changes and developer gripes leading up to it, give out.

Sony seem quite keen on the downloading stuff thing. But there is one big problem, though it may be intentional, which is that they're cutting out the retailers. If retailers can't sell PS3 games why would they push PS3s? I think this is one of the reasons MS have MS points, that way retailers can sell them as well (usually for better value) so don't feel like their missing out on any cash. Also little Johnny can save up his pocket money and get points/games, on the PS3 he has to ask his Dad if he can borrow his credit card.

Another issue of all this BluRay vs download indecision is that it makes a mockery of the "you need BluRay coz of huge games" argument.

@fingersthebeaver
Good point, original point I made however was that the speed (IMO) doesn't justify having installs. So if PS2 can get away with just 4x DVD, then I think PS3 should be capable of running from disk too. Mind you, can't seem to find the speed anywhere of the PS3 BR drive. That would be the most accurate theoretical comparison you could make. Although I wouldn't be surprised if it was 1x just to save cost. :(

"Hence current games are using a lot of space on the disk to create redundancy and increase speeds by lowering seek times."
To be fair I can't tell you how many UMD and DVD games I've seen that do the exact same thing, it's not a "current thing" really. I can tell you every single footy game on the PS2 uses a system like that. Except for the ones with REALLY long load times obviously.

Sounds like an absolute shitter of a title to be consigned to download only. Presumably it doesn't look much like the high-res pre-rendered video footage they showed off a few years back... shock.

I'm glad, I would rather MP only games be donwloadable.

I wouldn't. Download only = ZERO 2nd hand value

Download is just a way of getting something to you.

But I'd still rather a box, instructions and a physical disc.

Plus you can sell it second-hand and take it round a mates house.

So downloading is generally best for the publisher not the buyer. And we all know Sony hate the second-hand market.

@zuljin

BluRay is PS3 is 2x (~ 8x DVD), but let's forget about that for now as it doesn't really have anything to with games being download only or not except that HDD read speeds are much faster.

Plus you can sell it second-hand and take it round a mates house.

Sony's DRM allows you to share whatever you bought to five other PS3's, in Warhawks MP only case, your buddy would have to be online just to play it.

In the case of offline games though i have no idea how this DRM would work.

Anyway there wouldn't be much value in selling something that you bought for lets say £8 in the first place.

And we all know Sony hate the second-hand market.

*sigh* consigned to just Sony?

It's every publisher/developer out there that would love to eliminate the second hand market not just Sony.

All publishers hate there products being sold when they don't get a cut. But Sony are braver or brasher than ms when it comes to this I think.

Steam works. You can just give your password to your mate so he can play the game so it's easy to share. In principle it works but still the old way of swapping games works better.

But the concept of downloading games I feel works against the consumer ultimately with only slight benefits. I think it's in most peoples best interest to deter the publishers from doing business this way.

"All publishers hate there products being sold when they don't get a cut"

Fair doos, but how about when I'VE paid for it and I feel like selling it?

Publishers can go take a running jump. Where else can you find examples of manufacturers actively trying to destroy the second hand market generated by their goods? How about they at least run their own second hand business as car dealers do instead of stomping around like greedy, petulent little children?

@fingersthebeaver

The limits on overall download size are of course a reality. I'm not disputing that. And I agree it won't suit all titles. My issue that is that people seem to be making all kinds of assumptions about Warhark and dismissing it out of hand. That seems a little backward to me. I swear, anyone sitting down and actually playing it would never guess it didn't come on a disc.

@Overlush

Hey, I wasn't getting at you and I realise the context of your use of ''.

If being a download meant that the single player campaign of Warhawk got pulled and you like single player campaigns, I can understand how that would be annoying. But I think there are two things to consider here.

1. Warhawk wasn't multipleyer focussed so it could be a download. It was focussed for sound production and gameplay reasons. This in turn meant it was ABLE to be a download.

2. I think we are all going to come across situations where a game doesn't quite cater to our personal preferences. In this case you prefer sp to mp, which is cool. But surely that just means that WH isn't the game for you, and that some other title would provide a better gameplay experience in your case. I'm not sure how that is the fault of a downlable delivery system.


@RexRunti
Vendors still make money on consoles sold, even if Sony don't. Besides, the two systems are going to co-exist for a long while yet. And eventually, retailers need to find a way to get involved with DD in some way.

For example, DVD rental started moving to online in a big way. Some rental shop chains saw the trend and got their online presence sorted, others got caught tieing their shoelaces. Thats just business, and I don't think Sony or any other console manufacturer should inhibit progress just so that other profit making companies can remain stagnant and still make money.

@warzin

"So downloading is generally best for the publisher not the buyer. And we all know Sony hate the second-hand market."

It doesn't have to be that way. I don't think anyone could deny that XBLA is good for buyers too. The alternative would either be arcade style games in the shops and costing more, or no arcade games at all. XBLA allows us to buy good games for only a few quid, in a way that traditional retail simply couldn't support.

Edit: typos aplenty, left unfixed :)

Download!

But I thought we needed a BluRay disc to store all the greatness of a PS3 game!

Mr Sony has confused me, again.

Blur ray (or HD DVD for that matter) is much faster than DVD...

Are you sure? AFAIK, both Blu-Ray and HD DVD currently transfer data at rates similar to those of a 8xDVD reader (when reading DVDs)... That's why developers complain about the Blu-Ray drive of the PS3.

@ kangarootoo

I don't need to have seen or played Warhawk to know that it started in development with a view to selling as full priced blu-ray disc based title. It was so high on Sony's agenda that they even used it at E3 to showcase the 'wonders' of the six-axis. It has now been relegated to bargain basement prices. The 'arcade' reference was just literally a point-of-reference to other downloadable MP titles that sell for a tenner or less.