"Violent" MW2 discussed in Parliament

By Robert Purchese Published 9 November, 2009

Government stands behind age ratings.

The UK government has defended mature videogame content, and stated that when it's rated properly grown-ups "can get what adults should be able to".

Outspoken Labour MP Keith Vaz questioned Sion Simon (Culture, Media and Sport Minister) about plans to stop "violent" game Modern Warfare 2 falling into the hands of children, since it "contains such scenes of brutality that even the manufacturers have put in warnings". "It's not about censorship," Vaz said, "it's about protecting our children."

"The clearest recommendation of the Byron Review is that content suitable for adults should be labelled as such and sold as such, that it should be an offence to sell such content to children," countered Simon.

"That's the case under current law, it will be the case with the law when it changes under the Digital Economy Bill. This game the honourable gentleman refers to is a certificate 18 game, it should not be sold to children and the government's job is to make sure that adults, clearly labelled, can get what adults should be able to, and that children are not in danger of being subjected to adult content. "

Tom Watson, Labour MP for West Bromwich East, revealed that he had seen the "unpleasant" content in the game, but said it was "no worse than many films and books" of similar rating.

He urged the Minister not to start "collaborating with the Daily Mail to create moral panic over the use of videogames" and get on with supporting the games industry instead.

You can read the entire transcript below.

Keith Vaz, Labour, Leicester East (in response to an answer from Sion Simon on the Byron Review - "What steps have been taken to implement the review on Safer Children in a digital world?")

"Is the Minister aware that at midnight tonight a new and violent videogame called Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 is to be released. It contains such scenes of brutality that even the manufacturers have put in warnings within the game telling people how they can skip particular scenes.

"Given the recommendations of the Byron Review, specifically paragraphs 32 and 33, what steps is the government proposing to take in order to ensure these violent games do not fall into the hands of children and young people. It's not about censorship, it's about protecting our children."

Sion Simon, Culture, Media and Sport Minister

The clearest recommendation of the Byron Review is that content suitable for adults should be labelled as such and sold as such, that it should be an offense to sell such content to children. That's the case under current law, it will be the case with the law when it changes under the Digital Economy Bill. This game the hon. gentleman refers to is a certificate 18 game, it should not be sold to children and the government's job is to make sure that adults, clearly labelled, can get what adults should be able to, and that children are not in danger of being subjected to adult content.

Tom Watson, Labour, West Bromwich East

"I've seen the content in this videogame, it is unpleasant, though no worse than in many films and books, it is an 18-plus game and carries the BBFC 18-plus rating as well.

"Does the Minister agree that it would be better for this House to support the many thousands of games designers and coders and the many millions of games users, rather than collaborating with the Daily Mail to create moral panic over the use of videogames?"

Sion Simon, Culture, Media and Sport Minister

"I was in Dundee last week visiting the videogames industry. I can certainly agree with him that videogames is an industry, a very large, very important industry in which we have a national competitive advantage in this country, which it's important that all members of this House, and the government, continue to support.

Picture of Robert.

About Robert Purchese

Bertie is Eurogamer's Senior Staff Writer. When he's not hunting down news stories he's often found playing with his kids or gabbling about fantasy games and strange online worlds.

Read more articles from Robert by visiting the Robert Purchese archive page.

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Comments (84) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • cianchristopher #1 2 years ago

    Won't somebody please think of the children.....

  • X201 #2 2 years ago

    Won't somebody please think of the Daily Mail's circulation figures...

  • Hobo #3 2 years ago

    Keith Vaz had something to say on the matter?!

    MIND. BLOWN.

  • smernicki #4 2 years ago

    VAZFAIL

  • jonsaan #5 2 years ago

    I wish Keith Vaz had been around to censor my games of war in the woods when I was growing up. I'd be a much more rounded person if I hadn't been exposed to all that senseless pretend killing.

  • superdelphinus #6 2 years ago

    keith spaz

  • AphoticCosmos #7 2 years ago

    Don't you dare wheel out that "protecting our children" bullshit again, Vazzy. Either enforce age ratings or punish parents, or do both. Adults should be able to buy what they want.

    For the record, Keith Vaz is a bona fide douche when he speaks on any issue, let alone gaming.

  • kangarootoo #8 2 years ago

    That was a surprisingly balanced and sensible discussion. Even the usually raving Keith Vaz seemed to be more interested in restricting sales to just adults rather than banning the sale across the board.

    Maybe there is hope for us yet.

  • chessboxer #9 2 years ago

    I hear children playing CS:S, Killzone 2, Unreal Tournament, L4D and GTA4 which are 15 or higher rated games. Some received them as gifts whilst other play games that were purchased by their older siblings.

    If a parent (or an older sibling) decides to buy such a game for their younger child, is the shop really going to refuse the sale of the game?

    Anyway, I'm enjoying MW2 at the moment. Will see how many people are on the PSN with it shortly.

  • MavSkipper #10 2 years ago

    "Won't somebody please think of the Daily Fail's circulation figures..."

    fixed

  • smernicki #11 2 years ago

    "Won't somebody please think of the Faily Mail's circulation figures..."

  • sneetch #12 2 years ago

    I wholeheartedly support Tom Watson in this and encourage everyone in the UK to move to West Bromwich East (surely Central Bromwich?) and vote for him to be king, or however it is you guys handle that stuff.

    To sum up, I'm not interested in getting bogged down in the fine details (I'm a big picture guy) but Tom Watson for king.

  • Baranga #13 2 years ago

    "Won't somebody please think of the Faily Fail's circulation figures..."
    Edited by 1 at 09/11/09 @ 15:54

  • sneetch #14 2 years ago

    "Won't somebody please think of the Faily Fail's circulation figures..."

    I win. :p

    Edit: NOOOOOO. Pipped at the post.
    Edited by 1 at 09/11/09 @ 15:54

  • Freek #15 2 years ago

    Wow, shockingly sensible!

  • kangarootoo #16 2 years ago

    "I win. :p "

    I think perhaps, due to you touching the evil pun-stone, you all lose ;)

  • superdelphinus #17 2 years ago

    "Won't somebody please think of the Daily Heil's circulation figures..."

  • Sonic_D #18 2 years ago

    Sensible discussion shocker. What's the deal in Oz, they refuse to create an 18+ cert?

  • superdelphinus #19 2 years ago

    I think it's based on mental age in Australia, and so an 18 certificate is never really needed

  • photoboy #20 2 years ago

    Keith Vaz needs to shut up and stop pandering to the Daily Mail demographic (who apparently are too stupid to be able to read the very clear adults only rating on the game casing).

    Considering he's a disgraced politician who has been caught more than once in corruption scandals I'm surprised he's still around. But then the rest of them are no better. Hopefully the looming election will get rid of most of them.

  • Negotiator #21 2 years ago

    "Anyway, I'm enjoying MW2 at the moment. Will see how many people are on the PSN with it shortly."

    Yes chessboxer you are enjoying MW2 at the moment, even though its not out yet, of course you are.

  • NGCes26294BIV #22 2 years ago

    Good to see the house backhanding Vaz on yet another ill-prepared and poorly structured argument.

  • andywilkie35 #23 2 years ago

    At the end of the day, the ratings system has approved the game for sale. If the government were to block the sale of the game, then it completely undermines the point of the system, so well done to them for seeing sense.

  • zedzee #24 2 years ago

    The violence in MW2 and other video games is nowhere near the real horrors being committed daily on the people of Gaza, by the Israelis.

    Indeed, the British and especially the American armies have inflicted worse violence in Iraq and Afghanistan...And that's against civilians!

  • Collymilad #25 2 years ago

    What's wrong with the British government today?

    Hmm, what they said.....makes..sense?

    *Head explodes*

  • Negotiator #26 2 years ago

    "The ratings system is fine. It simply needs to be better enforced."

    What a stupid comment, enforced, yes they should have armed police there just in case a child trys to buy a 18 cert game. It's already against the law to sell an adult rated game to a minor, nothing more can be done, enforced, you muppet.

  • owl #27 2 years ago

    Maybe staff should be encouraged to ask who a game is for when someone is buying it. Do people really get offended when asked for ID when buying alcohol anymore? Not really. Just make it the norm as it is for alcohol and tobacco.

    i was in the queue in game the other day and a kid with his mother bought some wrestling game which was 16+, the kid obviously was not 16+. the assistant asked if the mother was aware that the game was age restricted - she was. he sold it no more questions asked.

    perhaps they should be concentrating on stopping this sort of situation.

  • superdelphinus #28 2 years ago

    "What a stupid comment, enforced, yes they should have armed police there just in case a child trys to buy a 18 cert game. It's already against the law to sell an adult rated game to a minor, nothing more can be done, enforced, you muppet."

    eh?

  • AbyssUK #29 2 years ago

    Oh looks like MP's are realising that video games actually make the country lots of money... no longer is it "ban this sick filth" it's now "support this sick filth as they pay taxes"

  • HermitArcader #30 2 years ago

    Post deleted at 09:17:39 22-12-2011

  • sneetch #31 2 years ago

    @chessboxer
    If a parent (or an older sibling) decides to buy such a game for their younger child, is the shop really going to refuse the sale of the game?

    The shop cannot (or should not) refuse: the age rating means that you can't sell or rent it to someone under that age (or see it in a cinema if it's a movie), it doesn't mean that you can't play or watch it. For good or ill, it's basically up to the parents to know what their kids are doing.

    When GTA IV was released I was in GAME and noticed this 14-15 year old pacing up and down. He was a bit agitated then his father entered the store, they had a chat and they went to the counter with a copy of GTA IV. To his credit the GAME employee pointed out that the game was rated 18 for violence, mild sexual content and foul language and asked him if he was sure, (I believe the GAME guy used the Sopranos as an example during all this) the dad had a brief conversation with his son and decided to buy it. The point is that the GAME guy was selling to the father and basically it was up to him.

  • Gao #32 2 years ago

    I hate the fact that computer games have now become a valid political currency. I don't agree with Keith Vaz generalizing computer games the way he does, but equally i don't agree with Tom Watson using the opposite side of the coin to further his own political career with our past time.
    And while i'm at it I don't thi...nk Infinity Ward should have included a scene which is not needed to tell the story just to get a bit more publicity / sensationalism for there game. It was always going to get record sales so why lower them selves with this kind of stunt.
    If gaming is ever going to lose the childish and non artform status it currently has the developers have to stop with the stupid press stunts and act like resepected artists.

  • kangarootoo #33 2 years ago

    @Negotiator

    Several sources have shipped early. Literally hundreds of people around the UK already have their copy. There are even articles on the front page of this very website about it.

    Ear to the ground, thats you.

  • NGCes26294BIV #34 2 years ago

    Negotiator, stop trolling.

    First of all, MW2 has been delivered by a number of online retailers already - lovefilm and the hut already admitted as much, and numerous retail stores have broken the street date too - Gamestop even came out to admit that it broke it on purpose, so yes, people are playing it, despite the release date being tomorrow.

    Secondly, get a dictionary so you can learn the meaning of the word 'enforce', because it's not exclusive to the use of 'police' enforcement.

  • darkmorgado #35 2 years ago

    I actually just called Sion Simon's office in the house of commons to pass along a very genuine "thank you."

    It's refreshing to see an MP actually backing the industry and having the common sense to point out that the age rating is on the box for a reason.

    His secretary said she was extremely grateful and that she would make sure that he is made aware that he has my support.

    PS - I also mentioned that he has been shown overwhelming support on these forums ;-)

    PPS - Ah, balance restored :-)

    EDIT: WTf? I just got NEGGED for telling an MP thank you for supporting the gaming industry and not pandering to tabloid scaremongering? WTF IS THAT ABOUT?
    Edited by 2 at 09/11/09 @ 16:27

  • darkmorgado #36 2 years ago

    Yes chessboxer you are enjoying MW2 at the moment, even though its not out yet, of course you are.

    Newsflash idiot, several retailers have admitted to breaking the street date!

    Plus, he could, y'know, actually work for a games retailer.

  • dr_zoidthrob #37 2 years ago

    Vaz is the UKs Jack Thompson... always has been, unfortunately always will be.

    We just have to put up with the simpering idiot, let him have a rant, then disappear back to wherever he lives and wait for the next game he gets offended by.


    What a a tit.


    EDIT: In other news, the government seems to've figured this out too. Which can only ever be A Good Thing.
    Edited by 1 at 09/11/09 @ 16:28

  • darkmorgado #38 2 years ago

    Sion Simon's office number at the house of commons is:

    0207 219 6637

    Would be nice if you could all show your support and let him know he has the backing of a community :-)

    PS - His name is pronounced "sean", as was embarassingly pointed out to me over the phone lol

  • lavalant #39 2 years ago

    I thought Vaz was fired over his expenses.

  • kangarootoo #40 2 years ago

    "PS - I also mentioned that he has been shown overwhelming support on these forums ;-) "

    Christ, I hope she doesn't visit the threads directly. That would be an eye opener as to the mentality of gamers for sure :)

  • NGCes26294BIV #41 2 years ago

    "Vaz is the UKs Jack Thompson"

    Please, you're giving him too much credit. People actually listened to Thomson on a national level - Nobody listens to Vaz, even his own party.

  • darkmorgado #42 2 years ago

    @kangarootoo

    LOL!

    She sounded REALLY pleased on the phone. I guess she isn't used to speaking to people congratulating an MP lol

  • kangarootoo #43 2 years ago

    @darkmorgado

    Its a cool sentiment, but non-stop phone calls might get a bit incovenient in the end.

    An email might be better.

    simons(AT)parliament(DOT)uk

  • darkmorgado #44 2 years ago

    I'm a very firm believer in using my democratic right to speak to MPs.

    It's why I'm not working with my local MP to set up my county's first dedicated Autism support group.

    EDIT: Oh, so now I get negged because I'm trying to set up a charity for an issue that directly affects me (having asperger's)?

    Bloody hell
    Edited by 1 at 09/11/09 @ 16:43

  • kangarootoo #45 2 years ago

    "I'm a very firm believer in using my democratic right to speak to MPs"

    Me too. I'm just thinking of the logistics of it. I'm sure an email of support would be gratefully received. :)

  • darkmorgado #46 2 years ago

    @kangaroo

    True, but phone calls are more "visible" in the sense that they will have more of a "cor blimey I have support!" impact then a "oh look, i have mail".
    Especially considering the amount of emails the average MP must receive on a daily basis.

    EDIT: OK, why is some troll on here negging every comment I make?
    Edited by 1 at 09/11/09 @ 16:45

  • vincentw00t #47 2 years ago

    Oh aye, I'm thinking of taking a trip over to Dundee to see that there videogames industry.

  • Anthony_UK #48 2 years ago

    Kieth Vaz - Atomic Facepalm!

  • mcmonkeyplc #49 2 years ago

    Dear god! They make sense now?! NOW?! When they are about to replaced by rapid conservative raptors?!

    Better late than never I guess....

  • freakzilla #50 2 years ago

    @EarlBassett

    Could be that they have finally given up? I mean they've complained at just about everything the game industry has tried and been mocked every time.

    Game publishers are contributing a lot to the tax and in the end that's what they really care about.
    Edited by 1 at 09/11/09 @ 16:53

  • Eraysor #51 2 years ago

    Vaz got served, finally!

    also +1million to above poster
    Edited by 1 at 09/11/09 @ 16:52

  • paulf #52 2 years ago

    one question - has he played it ?

  • Bitkari #53 2 years ago

    The scene where you're gunning down civilians as a CIA undercover agent is one of the scenes they're referring to, and while it is pretty brutal, - it's still nothing worse than what you see on 24 and the like, but I don't see The Vaz getting uppity about that.

  • kissthestick #54 2 years ago

    thank god i dont live in aussie

  • kangarootoo #55 2 years ago

    @darkmorgado

    I don't want to seem like I am on your case about this one. Its a nice sentiment like I said. I agree that a phone call is more visible, but what if this mp's secratary ends up field 60 calls tomorrow morning all saying "well done"? If the aim is to help or congratulate said mp, the last thing anyone would want to do is make life hard for them (if only by well meaning accident).

    Anyway, its just my thoughts on it. And the idea of sending an mp a message of support when they do something good is a great one. I'll zip it now :)

  • kangarootoo #56 2 years ago

    "one question - has he played it ?"

    Does he need to in this case?

    Seriously, why is everyone getting so uppity. As Keith Vaz commentary goes, this was pretty benign. He hasn't called for a ban or anything. Just calm down people, the game is coming out and NOBODY in parliament is saying it shouldn't, so where is the problem?

  • Zoro #57 2 years ago

    I'd throw in a "kill all the civilians" achievement just for giggles. Seriously, one would think the age rating system would serve some kind of purpose other than getting in the way of perfectly good boxart.
    Edited by 1 at 09/11/09 @ 16:59

  • canIdoyabombsforya #58 2 years ago

    MPs should be busy stabbing Gordon Brown in the back (or at least in his good eye) not arguing over our toys

  • jaxon58 #59 2 years ago

    I'd like to visit the videogames industry.
    I should go to Dundee.

  • beckyh #60 2 years ago

    It is good the government see sense on this matter. It is down to adults to decide what to play. Unfortunately those very same adults are allowing the children to play the games. The problem is the parents and they are the ones who need educating.

  • chessboxer #61 2 years ago

    I don't work for a retailer but I pre-ordered the Prestige Edition from HMV and it arrived around 1pm this afternoon. Here is photographic proof that I have been playing this today:

    [link url=http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/1559/dsc00964s.jpg ]http://im g137.imageshack.us/img137/1559/...[/link]

    Taken about 6 minutes ago.

  • Sildur #62 2 years ago

    Still shocked that this hasn't caused more controversy. I think it's blatantly clear that these members of parliament haven't seen the airport level or they'd be singing a different tune.

  • AliRay #63 2 years ago

    The only thing the above post tells me is that you should crack on and finish Batman cos its awesome!

  • gjgjg #64 2 years ago

    for a second i thought MPs made a purely reasonable desicion, but it seems to be from a 'support business' and 'up yours Daily fail' PoV. well, at least its the best case outcome from MPs :)

  • AliRay #65 2 years ago

    "Still shocked that this hasn't caused more controversy. I think it's blatantly clear that these members of parliament haven't seen the airport level or they'd be singing a different tune."

    Nah, I reckon most of those MPs can't wait to pop a cap in the proletariat!

  • el_pollo_diablo #66 2 years ago

    WHOA THERE. Keith Vaz? Honourable?
    When did this happen?

  • drxym #67 2 years ago

    From these comments we can conclude that Keith Vaz is a grandstanding idiot. The same safeguards are in place to prevent kids from playing MW2 as any other game - it has a BBFC and ESRB rating, and retailers have a legal obligation as to its sale to minors.

    Besides which I do not really see what marks this game out from any other hyper violent shooter. If it's the laughable "terrorism" controversy, then someone needs to explain what the fundamental difference is between that and a similar scenario you could pull off in GTA (for example). After all, it would be fairly simple for me to turn up in Liberty City airport and murder as many people as my imagination and wanted level would allow.

  • jaguarwong #68 2 years ago

    We'll have a facis... I mean Conservative government by this time next year - I don't hold out much hope for them being as level headed.
    Edited by 1 at 10/11/09 @ 01:37

  • OrgasmicMutton #69 2 years ago

    Good to see that the other politicians have little time for Kieth's nonsense.

  • BigAl-1992 #70 2 years ago

    Can I just say thanks to the blokes in Parliment, who actually DEFEND the video-game industry, rather than blasting it. As for Keith Vaz l, I think I speak for everyone on this forum; GO. FUCK. YOURSELF.

  • AOFanboi #71 2 years ago

    "videogames is an industry, a very large, very important industry in which we have a national competitive advantage in this country"

    You hear that sound, Minister? It is Canada, laughing.

  • icematt12 #72 2 years ago

    End result - irresponsible purchases are having a negative side on the gaming industry. I didn't know that Jack Thompson lives on on this side of the Atlantic.

  • metalangel #73 2 years ago

    Ya know what's worse than the pretend violence in MW2? The REAL violence in Afghanistan. Poor SSgt Olaf Schmid was one day away from ending his tour when he was killed.

    Mr Vaz, instead of trying to make yourself look good, YOU CUNT, why not lobby for our troops to pull out of Afghanistan and leave the locals to kill each other? They've been happily doing it for centuries, and neither we nor the Russians have or will be able to stop it.
    Edited by 1 at 09/11/09 @ 20:05

  • LudusSolers #74 2 years ago

    Following on from beemoh's post:

    [link url=htt p://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8342589.stm
    ]http://ne ws.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/83...[/link]

    I agree with kanga - in actual fact, it was a far more well reasoned debate about videogames than you would typically expect from our elected parlimentary representatives. Who knows, maybe the general public's view of videogames is growing up as the industry continues to mature...

  • callum9999 #75 2 years ago

    Owl: "i was in the queue in game the other day and a kid with his mother bought some wrestling game which was 16+, the kid obviously was not 16+. the assistant asked if the mother was aware that the game was age restricted - she was. he sold it no more questions asked.

    perhaps they should be concentrating on stopping this sort of situation."

    Then next time the child will just wait at home or outside while they buy the game...

    I don't really think these need to be strictly enforced - I've played GTA since the age of 10 and I'm so pacifistic I turned vegetarian because I didn't want animals to be killed. On the other hand you would get another person who plays it and will be into gun crime etc. The two aren't necessarily linked in my opinion. The person would presumably have gotten into gun crime regardless of whether they played it or not.

    Is there even any correlation between violence and the increasing exposure children have to violent videogames?

  • Spekingur #76 2 years ago

    I remember when I was young we played quite a bit of cops and robbers + cowboys and indians. We were probably training to be cold-blooded killers.

    I still play cops and robbers today though, albeit diffirently :D

    Violence will always be around, we won't be able to "get rid of it". Rather than trying to eliminate it completely why not try to improve how children learn about it? They will see it in the news in any case and learn about bloody wars from there and documentary channels. Our children are exposed to violence all the time everywhere we go. Blaming videogames is like blaming the sea being wet.

  • owl #77 2 years ago

    I've played GTA since the age of 10 and I'm so pacifistic I turned vegetarian because I didn't want animals to be killed. On the other hand you would get another person who plays it and will be into gun crime etc. The two aren't necessarily linked in my opinion. The person would presumably have gotten into gun crime regardless of whether they played it or not.

    i agree entirely, and i don't necessarily think there is a link between violent games and violent actions, i just believe that if the age ratings are to mean anything, they must be upheld. if it is unlawful for a shop to sell an 18 rated game to a 12 year old on their own, i believe the shop should not sell the same game to the child even if they have an adult with them, if there is reasonable doubt that the game is not for the adult (which i admit can obviously be a grey area, but in some cases is pretty clear cut).

    the age rating seems to be the only line of argument the industry has against ignorant 'games are for kids' nonsense. the alternative to focussing on keeping the games out of the reach of children seems to be censoring what goes into adult oriented games just in case they do get into the hands of youngsters, which is pretty deplorable. i'd simply much prefer the former to happen.

  • tesco #78 2 years ago

    Keith Vaz will do anything for some media attention. He is an EMBARRASSMENT to Leicester.

  • Zamn10210 #79 2 years ago

    West Bromwich East. What a daft name for a constituency.

  • comissars_handgun #80 2 years ago

    Wait aren't Crackdown 2 and All Points Bulletin being developed in Dundee? I want to go to Dundee and play them! Never thought I'd be jealous of an MP in the current climate...

  • zedzee #81 2 years ago

    @ EarlBassett:

    Actually, and for the record, I'm 41 years old. And I was drawing on the analogy because the very same MPs who complain about violence in a game, also voted for violence in Iraq when they voted for the illegal war there.

    Cringe all you like but what I am saying is the truth - something that you've obviously long abandoned with your aloof comments and in your tired, StarBucks-laden, fantasy world. I have relatives in BOTH Baghdad and Gaza and I know from them directly what it's like over there...

  • Moz #82 2 years ago

    I'm confused! Reading through the transcript at no point does any of the MPs say that the game should be band or censored so i'm not really sure what everyone's kicking off about other then MW2 being mentioned specifically!! All sound quite level headed and sensible if a little pointless.

  • TRUTH #83 2 years ago

    Keith Vaz is a one trick arsehole - ban video games, if you don't agree with him your racist...He was hoping to shag Shilpa Shetty during the BB case, as he tried so hard to be the savior for SS - she's all but forgotten about him now.

    KEITH VAZ IS AN ARSE - SPREAD THE WORD!!!!.

  • TRUTH #84 2 years ago

    Keith Vaz is a CORRUPT MP too!...This is fact on several occasions - we should all protest for his resignation!

    KEITH VAZ IS A THIEF & LIAR - SPREAD THE WORD!