Videogame epilepsy tests are "subjective", says WipEout HD dev Comments by Johnny Minkley

First!

Has a fit

Surely people with epilepsy tend to avoid video games on the whole anyway?

/genuinely has no idea

WoooooHooooooooooooo!

Pokemon Panic all over again!

It's actually great to hear a developer taking it seriously. Is this Sony policy? Most game developers I believe don't test for epilepsy at all.

Epilepsy indeed is very subjective. I didn't even know that there are test for games and I doubt their importance because I'm sure there are more than enough unfortunate beings out there who suffer from seizures triggered by all kinds of stuff including tested games. There's simply no guarantee at all.

@jonsaan

You're right, a member of my family suffers from epilepsy and they won't touch any computer games at all. Also. it seems HD television images on the whole seem to make her sensitive, due to the sheer amount of data being sent to the brain.

Not good when you have a 1080P telly really.

"It's actually great to hear a developer taking it seriously. Is this Sony policy? Most game developers I believe don't test for epilepsy at all."

I agree. Its the first time I've heard of any kind of standard test for this.

Why test a game for epilepsy? Seriously, adults with epilepsy should know of what to stay clear of and parents of children who suffer from epilepsy should have an eye on what their offspring are doing, because of the many things that could potentially, possibly trigger an eplieptic reaction. And that's the huge problem, I don't thing a test like that is subjective, I think it's totally random and useless due to the fact that every epileptic reacts to differently to various stimulations, mostly visual, but I do know a few who can start getting a seizure just by someone else slamming a door or approaching them from behind unexpectedly.

i bet it was all the flashing lights that sent the machine crazy. i heard they had to carry out a major overhaul on the zone mode - there's videos on the net of the pre-testfail version and it looked awesome. basically you had the track pulsating to whatever music was playing (even custom soundtracks). it looked intense!

"Why test a game for epilepsy? Seriously, adults with epilepsy should know of what to stay clear of and parents of children who suffer from epilepsy should have an eye on what their offspring are doing, because of the many things that could potentially, possibly trigger an eplieptic reaction. And that's the huge problem, I don't thing a test like that is subjective, I think it's totally random and useless due to the fact that every epileptic reacts to differently to various stimulations, mostly visual, but I do know a few who can start getting a seizure just by someone else slamming a door or approaching them from behind unexpectedly."

Is this some kind of test... or are you are being serious?

@spekkeh, kangarootoo: I think Ubi announced some agreement with an epilepsy charity/support group/swingers' party as recently as this year after an issue with Raving Rabbids, that they'd be testing all their games for sufferers.

Don't forget that we've had the in-box/manual H&S warnings ever since NINTENDO KILLED MY SON, too.

"Why test a game for epilepsy? Seriously, adults with epilepsy should know of what to stay clear of and parents of children who suffer from epilepsy should have an eye on what their offspring are doing, because of the many things that could potentially, possibly trigger an eplieptic reaction. And that's the huge problem, I don't thing a test like that is subjective, I think it's totally random and useless due to the fact that every epileptic reacts to differently to various stimulations, mostly visual, but I do know a few who can start getting a seizure just by someone else slamming a door or approaching them from behind unexpectedly."

OK so everyone that suffers with Epilepsy should just sit in a dark room and do sod all. Get real fool.

I really don't want to come off insensitive towards people suffering from epilepsy (I know people who suffer from seizures and in a way worked with them on a professional level) but I have to agree with Gurrah. People can get seizures from all kinds of things. Sure, there are the classic causes like flashing colors really fast but that's not all. You can test for such obvious things but some people get seizures from certain sounds and have no problem with colors at all.

The problem is you cannot test a game and then say it's suited for people with epilepsy. It simply will not be possible because we don't know enough about epilepsy. It's a pity that so many people cannot go near video games but those tests will not improve that situation at all so I have to admit I don't see the sense in them.

@RustyBullet. Not everyone with epilepsy has to avoid video games for long periods. It's people who suffer photo-sensitive epillepsy who have to avoid it. 1 on 20 people with epilepsy suffer this. I have epilepsy and have had stick for many years for playing video games from people as I can play games for long periods on occasions ie. Zelda, Metroid when they're just released, however it doesn't effect my seizures what so ever. To much stick is given to people who suffer epilepsy about video games from everyone without it when there's not as many who are effected by it as people think.

You never hear about these tests when the games pass them. ;)

The problem is you cannot test a game and then say it's suited for people with epilepsy. It simply will not be possible because we don't know enough about epilepsy. It's a pity that so many people cannot go near video games but those tests will not improve that situation at all so I have to admit I don't see the sense in them.


But certain likely triggers are known, and if it's possible to avoid these, surely they should?

Way to misinterpret my post RustyBullet. First off, I work with epileptics of all kinds so I do know what I'm talking about. All I'm saying is, an adult suffering from epilepsy knows the triggers he's receptive to, so he'll avoid them at all costs. He doesn't need a game developer to tell him not to play the game if he's aware of the fact that flashing lights and rapid movement can be the cause for a seizure. As for children suffering from epilepsy, parents will probably watch out for their kid as if it had any other kind of disease.

I have epilepsy and i've been playing video games all my life.
Although my type of epilepsy is caused by stress and lack of sleep.
...But it is still epilepsy!

Pity the original Zone won't be available as a mod or option - sounds brilliant.

These tests obviously do help or they wouldn't use them. They may not be able to completely remove the risk, but it lowers it enough for many sufferers to be able to play them.

And Gurrah, why not remove some of the risks so people have the choice to play the game instead of having to avoid them all?

people with epilepsy ruin the game for all!!

cheers! selfish buggers.

@3william56
They really haven't cut the zone mode down all that severely - it still looks pretty damn amazing.
Here's a comparion video: http://www.video.dpadmagazine.com/2008/0...

"Not good when you have a 1080P telly really. "

Isn't like, the whole world, in high def though?

Why not include an option enabling the seizure-inducing spectrum textures, with a big flashing disclaimer when you turn it on ? I don't get it.

The problem is you cannot test a game and then say it's suited for people with epilepsy. It simply will not be possible because we don't know enough about epilepsy.

Well of course you couldn't guarantee a 100% epilepsy safe game, but there is quite some scientific research done about what triggers photosensitive epileptic seizures. I actually had a paper accepted at a symposium on Visually Induced Motion Sickness, Fatigue, and Photosensitive Epileptic Seizures (don't mean to brag, it was on cybersickness, so I know very little about epilepsy). Of course you have the Pokemon incident, where they found out about the recurring red/green patterns being major stimulants; strobes, that kind of stuff. I thought all the major Hollywood films, and at least everything the BBC produces, but probably more TV shows, are run through a computer program that analyzes the imagery for possible epilepsy-inducing qualities. It wouldn't harm for game developers to do the same.

with a big flashing disclaimer when you turn it on

Lol.

@spekkeh

Yeah, that's right. Virtually every broadcaster adheres to a 'Harding Test', which measures the luminance spikes on the image, more than three luminance changes per second and it will fail the test. It is the bane of every editor ever since that god damn Pokemon incident. I was under the impression that games had got away with this because they had warnings on the box(or is it just in the manual) and sometimes during the startup of the game.

If all games will have to start adhering to the same Harding Test, it will be absolute nightmare for developers. As an editor, I've had many programmes fail harding tests, it's very difficult to measure accurately unless you have your own Harding box, which costs thousands of pounds( of which you can't charge the client for, even if you do buy one!) I mean, even Cash in the Attic(yeah - I admitted it!) fails harding all the time, I dread to think how developers are going to get past it, let alone for Wipeout, which is luminance flash heaven!

ahhhhhhhhhh flashing lights ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh "slaver" "slaver" lol it must be bad to have epilepsy

Doesn't the thing tell you at what point and wich patern caused the failure??

@Freek

Yes, it does. Very few post-production facility houses have a Harding Box though, as they are so expensive and the money can never be directly recouped, so they never get round to buying one. The Transmission Master's usually get sent out to another company for the Harding test at between £20 to £60, which is pretty cheap, especially when compared to the few grand that the Harding Box costs.

The results will indeed tell you exactly where and when the failure occured, and is usually very easy fo fix - slow the shot down slightly, and adjust the contrast to make the luminance spikes less severe - but sometimes it's a real bitch. I imagine all Harding fixes for games, esecially Wipeout, will be the latter!

@MasterNameless

duh

I think they shouldn't be changing game when it fails epilepsy test but instead add" epilepsy safe" setting in the menu.

Well of course you couldn't guarantee a 100% epilepsy safe game, but there is quite some scientific research done about what triggers photosensitive epileptic seizures. I actually had a paper accepted at a symposium on Visually Induced Motion Sickness, Fatigue, and Photosensitive Epileptic Seizures (don't mean to brag, it was on cybersickness, so I know very little about epilepsy). Of course you have the Pokemon incident, where they found out about the recurring red/green patterns being major stimulants; strobes, that kind of stuff. I thought all the major Hollywood films, and at least everything the BBC produces, but probably more TV shows, are run through a computer program that analyzes the imagery for possible epilepsy-inducing qualities. It wouldn't harm for game developers to do the same.

That's true. There are some well known situations that can cause seizues and I think it's good if they want to look out for those if you know what to look for. However, there's still a good chance that even though things like 3 luminance spikes per second will be elimininated from the game/movie that someone with photosensitive epilepsy will have problems with that game.

My point is: It's certainly a good thing in games where you do not expect something like this; Civ Revolution, Braid and the likes. In a game like Wipeout, however, I highly doubt that it will make the slightest bit of difference. Wipeout is a fast, colorful and flashy game. Even after the test I'm sure that it will still be flashy enough to cause seizures. It is sad that people suffer from photosensitive epilepsy but if they do I'm sure they avoid games like Wipeout anyway.

why don't they have an epilepsy switch amongst the in game options (or even in the console dashboard) to turn the games to an epileptic 'safe mode'? i.e an option that tones down the visuals should you believe you need it.

That way developers can still deliver their original vision for the game whilst still providing a solution for epileptic sufferers.

@Gurrah

Since when did the belt and braces approach go out of fashion when it comes to peoples' safety?

Yes a parent should watch out for their kids AND an adult sufferer should be aware of their own sensitivities, BUT games manufacturers can still also play a part by running tests such as this.

I know there are some gamers out there (not you) who would say "balls to epilepsy if its going to delay games", but they are detached imbeciles that need some context hammering into their ears with a sock full of oranges.

@Hog-lumps

That is still a risky approach. What if someone doesn't know they are a sufferer and your game triggers their first seizure?

I'm pretty sure that games can work toward avoiding risks like this without the experience suffering for gamers.

@kangarootoo

Shall we also all drive around in rubber cars, wear hard hats to protect against falling meteorites and completely outlaw all alchohol as well? There is a fine line between safety and stupidity. Anyone who has photosensitive epilepsy is going to go no where near this game. As far as I am aware there are no tests carried out on people to see if they have epilepsy until they have had a seizure so do you want to protect the whole world against the possibility of having a seizure? Or can we all carry on playing games with lots of flashing lights without you standing on your soap box?