Uncharted 2: Mastering the Cell Comments by Richard Leadbetter

Nice job ND! Great game and phenomenal graphics!

The 360 certainly has the best cross-platform games, but when it comes to exclusives - the PS3 is the one to beat!

I guess developers are always trying to come up with content that can be unlocked to reward us all, but I really wish this sort of stuff wasn't locked content. The original had some really interesting documentaries and that had to be "unlocked" too. Until they started popping up as downloadable videos on PSN!

IIRC The original PS3 spec used a CELL as a GPU. It was a late decision to replace it with RSX, so it's surprising in some ways that it's taken so long for devs to make use of the SPU's for rendering. Presumably the system software just wasn't ready on time and CELL was more expensive/yielding badly compared to the nVidia chip.

It'll definitely be intersting to see the PS4 spec in 2-3 years time. A 4 core CELL with 32 SPUs hooked up to a more recent nVidia part with 32Mb of e-DRAM ala Xenon (or the GFX synth in PS2) would be an animal of a machine. It would also allow devs to re-use the tech they've invested in. But I can't see Sony risking huge sums of money on PS4 after the PS3 debacle.

Naughty Dog certainly is showing everyone that almost irrespective of SDK and hardware design, talent (read that as very hard work) will always result in amazing looking games.

I "bought" all the making of videos in the game last night but forgot about them as I was having way too much fun with the game itself.

Interesting article though. I always assumed the PS3's RSX graphics chip was pretty weak, effectively its a crippled GeForce 7800 GTX which by today's PC standards is three generations old, and that developers used the Cell to make up for those weaknesses, such as having anti-aliasing and HDR lighting.

@ oreillymj:

It was once rumored that Sony would just stick with a similar design, certainly with a beefier GPU, but with a newer generation Cell, which could make the next PS automatically backwards compatible with PS3 games. Just a rumor though.

peter - its just something else to unlock, the trophies are hardly interesting, as with gamerscore, but they do give you targets to achieve.

loving this game and im only 2 chapters in: loved the prolog chapter especially, its very tense with sweet playable cutscenes. but this is a nice bit of analysis from df. i hope that whatever nd have learnt can be passed to other devs and spend time getting to grips with it.

now after seeing this video I think all staff at valve should sit down and take notes cos these guys have made an amazing game by putting lots of effort in and valve cant be bothered to put any effort in to give the ps3 left for dead which it deserves

"But I can't see Sony risking huge sums of money on PS4 after the PS3 debacle. "

I don't think they'll need to. They can stick with the shruken Cell, and just place a beefier GPU with more RAM and they're good to go again. Lack of RAM is pretty much the main problem for the PS3/360.

The only other problem will be what GPU chip to use, what with Nvidia seemingly abandoning high end chips. Although if the PS4 is to be backwards compat., it'll probably need a NVidia chip.

Maybe a dumb question, but how do you apply the bonus modes (such as the flipped maps)? Do you have to start a new campaign?

Edit: Thanks for the downvote, but it was actually a serious question. Anyone?

The animation thing is interesting. Finished the game at the weekend and whilst loved it totally the animation was a part of it that actually disappointed me the most.. The cutscenes were great but we know they motion captured the actors for those, but the ingame animations were quite jumpy between certain actions, swinging from a pole and jumping looked pretty poor to me.. it didnt stop me playing the game at all, as i said i loved it, but slightly jars when you watch it back and go oh wait it kinda skipped bits to get it to do that.. oh okay.. fairy nuff.

@Rodchenko
When you buy the option, you go to the same location the option was in, but instead of buying it, you now enable/disable it with X (works for the filters, I imagine the flipping works similarly).

i agree about the beat em up genre. it went from one of the most popular types of games to almost non existent in one generation. they haven't evolved at all.

tired of fancy effects masking shitty hit-boxes. have a word eurogamer! - to AM#2 preferably... if they are still around!

tekken 6 is looking really dull and too far baked to make any real changes. i'd love a new and improved VF.

Congrats to Naughty Dog for getting a lot of performance out of the PS3, I may just get Unchartered2 this time round.
Can't see many other developers trying as hard though.I wonder if Sony will bet on CELL in the next Playstation iteration.
Far better IMO to just punt a 6/8 core pc spec processor with a good graphics card and let the developers out there sigh with relief than bother with the complex nightmare of programming multiple CELL's.
Considering that you have to rely on third parties creating games equivalent to the competition, allowing Microsoft to pummel it in most head-ons in the next console war would be a serious kick in the nads all over again!
My wish would be for Sony to develop the hardware and Microsoft develop the software and creation tools to power a beast where both companies cash in and halving development costs in the process.It'll save me buying 2 consoles next time round too :))

One thing the inner geek in me would love to know. The end credits for Uncharted 1 mention guy called RJ Michal. Amiga fans will know that this guy was a legend behind that machine.

I'd love to know what he's up to at Sony. Maybe Eurogamer could swing an interview.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_J._M...

This shows that if used in the right way the PS3 hardware can deliver stunning games. If you don't use the hardware in the right way you will only get average games, like most ports from the PS3.

Naughty Dog are leading the way and they have raised the bar for PS3 gaming. Who or what will better Uncharted 2?

"It'll save me buying 2 consoles next time round too :)) "

You don't want that, nobody wants that. One system = no competition. You probably wouldn't have PSN if it wasn't for Live; you probably wouldn't have Live/Xbox it wasn't for PS2's massive success; you probably woudn't have Natal if it wasn't for Wii...

They finally tapped the hidden potential

Naughty Dog are so far ahead of most developers on utilising the PS3 graphically, even first-party companies. Take inFamous, Resisitance 2 - nowhere near as good. Only Killzone 2 can come close to it. Even MGS4 looks pretty average compared to Uncharted 2.

Seems cooperation between the various first-party devs is paying off:
http://gamer.blorge.com/2009/10/18/first...

"with sweet playable cutscenes"

The pedant in me can't help pointing out that there really can be no such thing :)

@zuljin

"When you buy the option, you go to the same location the option was in, but instead of buying it, you now enable/disable it with X (works for the filters, I imagine the flipping works similarly)."

Good call. I bought a bunch of filters, and then had no idea how to turn them on.

@Darren

RSX is supposed to be equivalent to 2 7800s.

@freakzilla

"Nice, but I'm still skeptical of the PS3's capabilites."

Well, surely the proof is in the pudding. And this particular pudding is available in any games shop you care to choose.

"moribund fighting genre" made me laugh. :D

Naughty dog do make some really enjoyable games. Crash Bandicoot series went downhill after tehy left it to someone else. It could have being as big Mario. In actual fact at one time it was probably bigger in the PSone days

When you think about what Valve said about the PS3 you can see that as a 3rd Party developer, getting the most out of the Cell is probably not cost beneficial. I remember when the first Uncharted game came out and a question was asked ,what did they least like about the development of the game. A developer stated that they did not like how long it took to develop the engine which took 3 years.

There are very few 3rd party developers that have 3 years or better to create a game engine let alone create a game after that time. You look at the two most visually outstanding games on the PS3 which is Uncharted1/2 and Killzone2 and you look at the development time and resources spent on those games and you start to realize that not many developers have that kind of luxury.

For Valves business, it was not cost beneficial for them to devote that kind of time and resources to the Cell since they are not that big of a company and their main platform is the PC. Valve is not a Engine developer like Epic or ID. Even today, you see companies continue to struggle with the PS3 and that's not limited to 3rd Party developers either.

I agree with you miiiguel that competition is good.
I only bought two consoles this time round because I wanted Blu-Ray and Xbox LIVE.
GT or Forza, Halo or Uncharted, seems to be good times for both consoles lately.
I'm a fan of both systems but I plan to buy just one console next time round.

@ChromeMud : Even if you want to play/own just one console the sole existence of a credible competing brand/system, is good for you (us).

darren: I still get the sense that the PS3 hardware was thrown together last minute and that no-one really sat down and thought about how all the different bits were going to work together efficiently so that developers would find it easy to code for but still have plenty of future potential.

really? my opinion is that it was very very thoroughly researched and engineered, in-line with a certain vision. we can argue about that vision having been the correct one...

@evilfoxhound
Didn't they create the Source Engine?

Yes, Valve create their own engine but I do not create a multiplatform engine like Epic and ID or do they create their engine as a platform like the other two as well.

hmmm... another one of those threads uniquely and solely about PS3 being filled with crap from MS fanboys.

donnie080203: why the hell did you register an account being one mere digit away from donnie080208 - another prized addition to the EG community and use it only to post inflamatory childish remarks?

awww donnie got his fanboy feelings hurt? lol

The game beats anything around really and even now I am not hearing ANY mention of low framerate. If everything runs smooth at 30fps and we are looking at the best PC/console game ever (bar crysis) then thats amazing. The 3rd party developers will get there eventually, thats why the ps3 has the lifespan.

Btw its a bit obvious that the 360 cannot replicate this game. This is not just the RSX at work but its also using the cells graphical power. The 360 has no such feature and its GPU is not exactly able to match both the cell and the RSX in performance.

I can say that i've been disappointed by many games lately but Uncharted 2 is not one of them. I think this game should be in contention for game of the year.

donnie080208 does not troll, he believes in what he says (no matter how ****** it sometimes sounds). donnie080203 needs some fish as a bribe to cross the bridge.

The fact they are having to use the SPU's for something that should be done on the GPU, shows just how weak the RSX chip is.

128bit memory interface and 24Gb of Bandwidth....poor,very poor.

Of course the ATI chip in the 360 isnt much better, but the 10mb of onboard EDRAM really has allowed the 360 to punch above its weight...

@kangarootoo

I'm not saying that bullshots and flat out lies are unique to Sony, but they have been going on and on about the PS3's capabilities for a long time now, games like KZ2 only came about after huge effort, you have to wonder if this was just learning to master new tech or optimising a relatively average piece of hardware to produce something that can be considered worthy of Sony's hype

And please don't accuse me of being a fanboy or having some sort of agenda, (I can't believe I'm saying this) I only have a PS3 and the reason I don't have a 360 is because I don't want to hand over cash to a company that already screwed me with windows.

@bagpuss
The xenos in the 360 has a memory interface bus bandwidth of 22.40 GB/s which is less than the number you just quoted for the rsx. The only high bandwidth part of the equation is the inadequate 10Mb of edram that developers are having to reduce the game resolutions and take out aa to accomodate. There is nothing saying such as such should be done on a GPU. Whatever mixture works is good for the developers and the ps3 allows them to do that... even if its tough

@freakzilla

Average hardware can't be optimized to run a game like U2 so well. Also, whats wrong with home?

Ppl its guaranteed that architecture similar to the cell is the future of gaming.

evilfoxhound: "Withought GT5 Prologue, Forza 3 probably wouldn't have had cockpit views."

PGR3 & 4 would like to say hello.

Btw its a bit obvious that the 360 cannot replicate this game. This is not just the RSX at work but its also using the cells graphical power. The 360 has no such feature and its GPU is not exactly able to match both the cell and the RSX in performance.

While I'm absolutely no expert, nor did I ever code for either, I think such a claim is hasty to say the least. The graphical code was in this case custom made and optimized to run on the combination RSX+Cell, but surely very similar results could have been obtained on the 360, with the appropriate optimizations.

It seems ND are the ONLY devs to truly master the ps3 archeitecture so far this gen (in a reasonable amount of time) I hate to say it but it seems that if spoken to right, by the right devs, the cell can produce results beyond anything seen on the 360. You have to ask yourself this though, is it worth the countless shoddy MPlat games for the odd outstanding exclusive. also saying its because the 360 is lead dev is rubbish as ghostbusters,dead space etc.. has shown , even when the shoes on the other foot the xbox still comes out on top. anyway uncharted 1/2 are the ONLY games unmatched and probably not possible to equal by msofts system. MGS4,KILLZONE 2 ETC.. all look great BUT nothing that special considering their budget/development time. EDIT ANYONE WHO REPORTS DONNIE080203 THE IMPOSTER HAS MY THANKS

oh dear we have another imposter posing as me,its the 2nd time this has happened and ive reported the guy to EG. I find it sad that these guys have gone to the trouble of reg an account to TRY and annoy me. pitiful. anyway why has darren been marked down for saying the cell hasnt been sucessful? its true ,it has been a disaster when the competition has superior graphics on 95% of the games released each year how can you call that a sucess for sonys design team? surely msoft made the better decision with the dev friendly 360. uncharteds great but the ps3 is missing out on the valve games etc..probably the best devs at work today(not in visuals i might add)

@SeesThroughAll

Not likely. Unless the ppc in the xbox will help the xenos do that extra bit of processing... They may have shared memory but they don't exactly share processing. The is also the fact that 360 games run on directx and on top of whatever system or software MS has put in place. Look at it this way, uncharted 1 was rsx and uncharted 2 is rsx + cell. Uncharted 1 is as far as the 360 can go as far as I am concerned. They can put more processing on the PPC to include more physics etc but the graphics wouldnt go beyond that. My thoughts anyway.

@donnie

I had fun playing the demo of bayonetta even with its apparent subparness. Multiplat games are pretty even now with differences being visible only to those being picky and there are exclusives that are above the rest. Doesnt seem like much of a trade off to me. The games arent the ps3s problem, the only things that i could have issues with are the features available in xmb and what sony allows to be done with the console (not bad but can be annoying).

Valve? the best dev in the business? valve?!?! Tf2 and l4d are rubbish. Played those many many MANY times and still dont get why they are popular. Imagine i got them to play for free (legit) and they didnt even feel worth "Free". The minor differences arent game breaking. ms made a developer friendly console that might never have ppl saying "wow" and sony made a console that will end up making ppl say "wow" on a regular basis and in the meantime has ppl satisfied...

@ semitope: My impression on how both machines work, based on what I read online:

Both the Xenon and the Cell are based on PPC architecture, so I don't think that that's any kind of indicator of inferiority. As for the shared memory issue, while on the 360 there is a single 512MB RAM available to both the CPU and GPU, on the PS3, the memory is split, although both the Cell and the RSX may access the 256MB VRAM. The Cell does do it slower than the RSX though.
Both the PS3 and 360 CPUs benefit from parallel processing. The Xenon is a triple core general purpose processor, while the Cell is a single core general purpose processor, with some overclocked DSPs (the SPUs) competing for execution time. Symmetric versus asymmetric then. Multiprocessing on the 360 is much easier in theory, but as far as graphical tasks are concerned, DSPs are more suited for geometry and filtering than general purpose cores.

Please correct me where it's wrong, as I'm curious to really know about how each machine works.

Too many similarities to be sure about what one can do that the other can't, that's all I'm trying to say.

My point is the xenon can't perform GPU tasks as it only has the ppc part and not the SPEs. Guess you said that huh? The 360 cpu would pretty much suck at it.

Multiprocessing on the 360 is much easier in theory, but as far as graphical tasks are concerned, DSPs are more suited for geometry and filtering than general purpose cores.

I am no professional either and don't know the numbers. Just the way I interpret it.

And still, none of this means that a similar looking game couldn't be done through the strengths of Xenos alone either. By any team as capable as Naughty Dog.

Because I don't know the actual numbers either, let's just leave it at the fact that ND worked hard to get the most out of the hardware they had available.

the xenos is slightly better than rsx and some sources say the rsx is actually faster than the xenos but is not quite as easy to use because it doesnt have the unified architecture of the xenos.