TT director excited by Sony wands

By Tom Bramwell Published 21 December, 2009

Reckons Natal will suffer from "lag".

Traveller's Tales director Jon Burton has said he is more excited about the Sony motion controller than Microsoft's Project Natal, although he admits the latter's technology is "amazing".

"I was actually more impressed with Sony's motion capture solution than Microsoft's Natal," Burton told Develop.

"[Natal is] exceedingly clever, but the lag on the input and lack of physical buttons is really going to restrict the kind of games that can be done with it."

Meanwhile, Burton expects the Sony controller to be "cheap" and "accurate", and of course it has buttons, which are all the rage.

But the LEGO Everything veteran also admitted that the Natal software was "nothing short of amazing" given its ability to "get anything resembling mo-cap, live in real time, from effectively a single camera".

The Natal sensor bar and camera combination is at the core of Microsoft's vision for controller-free gaming, which many expect it to launch for Xbox 360 in 2010.

Sony, meanwhile, has said to expect its as-yet unnamed motion controller next spring. The device uses the PlayStation Eye camera and handheld wands to track movement with unerring precision.

Check out Digital Foundry's extensive hands-on and analysis of Project Natal to see whether Burton's fears of lag are justified.

(Oh, and thanks to the reader who submitted this story with the promise that it would "activate the fanboys". Don't give him the satisfaction, gentle reader!)

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About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000. Follow him on Twitter.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

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Comments (41) Latest comment 2 years ago

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  • TheNinkyNonk #1 2 years ago

    I must admit that, for me, Sony are aiming at stricking just the right balance. Wiimotes are too imprecise and Natal is just a bit too far out IMHO. If Sony can pull it off, the wands should be superb and suitable for most, if not all, genres.

  • Ignatius_Cheese #2 2 years ago

    Accurate Lego waggle FTW! \o/

  • dr_shambles #3 2 years ago

    I see lag mentioned again in relation to Natal. This seemed to be brushed under the carpet at E3, but think it could be a factor. A few miliseconds out and it could ruin the game experience. Be interesting to see if Microsoft manage to sort it out pre release.

  • DAN.E.B #4 2 years ago

    Hats off to MS for pushing the envelope rather than just rip off Ninty like SONY did!

  • bradgrenz #5 2 years ago

    "According to DF, it's similar to Killzone 2 input lag."

    How much of that lag time is processing input in Killzone 2? Very little, I'd hazard. So if it takes as much time to process the input as render the frame you're adding lag to lag to a degree that could very well be problematic.

  • miiiguel #6 2 years ago

    I hope MS doesn't solve the lag, so it restrics the games it can be used, so I can keep on using a regular gamepad.
    Btw, the "mouse" (the pointing device) is 47 years old.

  • GamesConnoisseur #7 2 years ago

    Mmm if Sony supporters are saying Killzone 2 control lags are acceptable then should be the same for Natal? As per above post, so ergo my complaints re the control lag of that game which was a bit mollified with the patch but still there....

    So for me I would have likely issues with Natal especially if used in content of a fast moving action game with requirement for precise accuracy like Killzone 2?!

    I look forward to both regardless and hope will be well implemented and utilised.

  • tomjoadsghost #8 2 years ago

    Whichever system works out better its a pretty safe bet that traveller's tales wont be providing any decent games for it.

  • KRadiation #9 2 years ago

    Hats off to MS for pushing the envelope rather than just rip off Ninty like SONY did!

    Natal isn't pushing any envelope. They've just group together a lot of existing stuff we've all seen before and labelled it as new.

  • BillyBrush #10 2 years ago

    Has he been using them both?

    Anyway...John...that cookie cutter doesn't work itself you know, get back to work you stirrer.

  • davisorle #11 2 years ago

    Post deleted at 20:44:35 16-04-2012

  • markymark22 #12 2 years ago

    There's nothing really new about natal or the sony wand! Sony's will probably be better because its just a better wii mote on a more powerfull console. I'll stick to normal joypads thanks!

  • StooMonster #13 2 years ago

    TheNinkyNonk: Wiimotes are too imprecise

    Too imprecise for what?

    Millions of sales of hardware and software appears to disagree with you, suggesting they are precise enough for most people. Although the Wii Motion Plus thing shows that perhaps they needed tightening up for some purposes.

    What makes you think Sony's solution will be more accurate than Motion Plus?

  • telboy007 #14 2 years ago

    A camera and two wands? Hmm... sounds like the most awesome string puppet simulation game ever created is on the cards.

  • FogHeart #15 2 years ago

    To sum up th DF article on Natal's lag:-

    - They measure it to be 200ms
    - By release they expect program optimisation to bring it down to 133-166ms
    - This is on par with KZ2/GTA4

    But...I tried KZ2 and I just couldn't cope with the controller lag. It was too frustrating. Also, news that Natal could not pick up small finger gestures - which is what this guy is referring to with the lack of buttons - meant that when I recently chose an HD console for upcoming motion control, I plumped for the PS3.

  • mungolikebeans #16 2 years ago

    'TT director excited by Sony wands'

    Blimey, what an image! A sony wand in one hole and a natal up the.....

  • canIdoyabombsforya #17 2 years ago

    It's great. You can buy a Blu-Ray player today and wave your arms around tomorrow ;)

  • jag10 #18 2 years ago

    killzone 2 just had to be mentioned didn't it? LMAO, well i enjoyed getting my platinum for it.

    On to the topic:
    it's going to be interesting to see how this all pans out. the sony live demo at e3 showed some cool stuff like the oblivion type gameplay it showed. so if they can get games like oblivion working with there tech it will be good.

    Natal tech is good however what are the games going to be like? i don't want to be playing wii games on a Ps3/360. don't tell me you halo fanboys are going to go all wii games crazy. Also it clearly wasn't working properly at E3 'ever wondered what the bottom of a avatars shoe looks like'

    Also a few extra points
    what's everyone going to do with there wii accessories? chuck them in the bin?

    one of the reasons why wii is so succesfull is because of the 'it helps you keep fit' bullshit. so will it be the same for Ps3/360. good luck with the 20stone yanks.

    interesting stuff, only time will tell.









  • El-Dev #19 2 years ago

    I await a MS friendly developer saying Natal will be the best thing since oxygen and some will herald this person as the second coming of Jesus.

  • FogHeart #20 2 years ago

    @Trebell

    Actually the Wii was what I bought and I find myself defending it constantly. Nothing wrong with the Wii! But the games that I want to play on it are thin on the ground. I adore Resi 4, No More Heroes, and all those great 'light gun' games, and I'm really looking forward to Red Steel 2, but time after time the games that would sell like hot cakes on the other consoles flop on the Wii so the incentive for publishers to make them doesn't seem to be there. I wish, I wish, I WISH it weren't so, but I've given up waiting to play games like OpFlash, Resistance, Dead Space and so on on the Wii.

  • gnrlstuart #21 2 years ago

    the camera should really be refreshing at a minimum of 60hz (fields per second) to reduce the lag. hell, forza 3's physics engine runs at 360hz.

  • Skooch #22 2 years ago

    Does anyone know what the lag is on a Wiimote? I find that swinging a 'bat' is always just out....be good to compare with DF's estimations of Natal lag.

  • lockload #23 2 years ago

    Well done 1/2 a quote as usual, what the original interview said was he hasnt actually seem natal for 6 months since e3 which was an early prototype

  • drxym #24 2 years ago

    Natal is obviously going to be restricted to casual games. It doesn't have any buttons nor the precision needed for hardcore gaming. It might be great for games that utilize full body motion but it will stink at traditional gaming. I expect Sony is trying to appeal to hardcore players and casuals with its offering, but it runs the danger of appealing to neither.

  • badgerc82 #25 2 years ago

    Pretty spot on I think, I love Microsoft's creativity on Natal and think it is an amazing device. However, the idea of playing a driving game with nothing to hold and having to wave your arms about with nothing tactile seems annoying. That said I'm sure there are some fantastic applications for the Natal hardware, but they are much harder to think of and I imagine develop than for the PS3 wand or the Wii controller.

    I'm sure we will see some killer apps for both but at the end of the day it all comes down to the creativity of the dev teams and how easy it is to apply ideas to a piece of hardware.

  • telboy007 #26 2 years ago

    Don't care what one becomes market leader I just want a great dodge ball game to play with the natal system, that would keep me happy for a long long time. :)

  • andromeda #27 2 years ago

    Whatever the outcome, I refuse to get off my 36yr old ass to provide any of these gimmicks with any of my fast depleting "motion"

  • JahB #28 2 years ago

    Wiimotes are too imprecise

    Too imprecise for what?

    too imprecise to stir up any interest with qualified 3rd party developers, which results in a game catalogue of very few excellent 1st party games and a shitload of shovelware. with a bit of luck, the sony wands should succeed where nintendo failed miserably: in providing interesting game development options.

  • canIdoyabombsforya #29 2 years ago

    El-Dev
    "I await a MS friendly developer saying Natal will be the best thing since oxygen and some will herald this person as the second coming of Jesus. "

    The way the Big 3 have carried on in recent times, I fully expect one of them to reveal Jesus sooner or later. If they don't, I'm going to be hugely dissapointed. Especially as I plan to ask him to make me a Dreamcast 2 (with no wavy bits), from half a loaf of bread ;)

  • Murton #30 2 years ago

    On the subject of Killzone 2 controller lag am I only one that felt that the clunkiness added to the game slightly? The controller lag is barely noticeable when shooting or moving the crosshair but when performing actions such as running, jumping, turning and bringing up the gun sights there is a slight delay that can be noticed, the sort of delay I'd probably expect from a soldier that is heavily laden with equipment. For me it helped a little with the immersion, it certainly wasn't a gamer breaker.

    The real issue for Natal is you can potentially get controller lag, system processing lag and display lag all overlapping each other, if they can't get that down to under 200ms before launch then all twitch games that use it will fail and dare we ask what happens in online multiplayer using Natal when you add some network lag to the mix?

    Don't get me wrong, I find the tech behind Natal fascinating, but from a gaming standpoint I just can't see it or the wand working beyond the typical mini-game packs that everyone can already experience on the Wii.

  • JamieR #31 2 years ago

    I think the ps3 wand is more suited to my taste.

    I don't like eye toy looks like its for kids like the pet game and the washing the screen all the games on it are for kids, so i probably wont like Natal since it looks similar.

    But with the ps3 wand i do have worries i mentioned before about the lack of a analog sticks and also what if the light gets covered some how will it stop working. wii mote is great i like it but the console lacks hd and for some reason my hd tv sucks with standard def it looks really bad.

    I guess id like the pros of all 3 with out the cons but this is the real world and company's don't work together.

  • callum9999 #32 2 years ago

    @DAN:SOLO

    Sony's wand is no more a rip off of the Wii than Microsofts Natal is of the eyetoy. All companies use ideas from eachother and refine them to suit. Very little is original these days (there are only so many "concepts" people want).

  • Machiavellian #33 2 years ago

    Natal isn't pushing any envelope. They've just group together a lot of existing stuff we've all seen before and labelled it as new.

    How many gaming devices do you have that does full body motion tracking for the Home market. I would definitely say thats pushing the envelope since there isn't such a device. Weather it works and be the killer App is a different story. Combining the other technology is also pushing the envelope as well since all those technologies have not been included in the home market as a complete system before as well.

    On the input lag, MS has stated that they will solve the issue before Natal reach market. A custom DSP processor can very well accomplish the task and I hope the succeed. I want to see what game developers can leverage with Natal and if they can truly invent different genras that none of us have even thought of.

    As for Sony wand, I truly hope that Sony concentrate on the Hardcore and not the casual. From their tech demos, I would say it only make sense to go after the hardcore because the casuals have the Wii and I do not see the Wand exciting them to spend 100 more on the PS3 to get the same experience. We already see that HD and graphics is not going to convert them and adding on another device tha ups the price of the PS3 isn't going to win them over either.
    Edited by Machiavellian at 22/12/09 @ 01:17

  • Machiavellian #34 2 years ago

    To get around the small finger issue, MS or a developr could easily use something like a glove with some type of reflective which would help Natal pinpoint the fingers for finer controls and problem increase the accurracy to Sony's Wand level. This can easily done with the Natal technology.

    Also MS said that you could do finger perceision but it the device is not designed out of the box with that functionality (at least now when the demos weredone) but a developer if they wanted to could code for it themselves or maybe the final product might have it if enough developers ask for it.

  • SeesThroughAll #35 2 years ago

    I have to echo those who prefer good old control pads.

    Screw motion controls. Really.

  • smelly #36 2 years ago

    @JahB : But precise enough for the other 2 to try to "emulate" (not copy, honest guv!)

  • davisorle #37 2 years ago

    Post deleted at 20:44:35 16-04-2012

  • TheOtherTwitch #38 2 years ago

    Why do people keep thinking Natal will be good for FPS... I want two sticks, one to run and the other to look around with, in which case hand gestures will be the least of my worries.

    And the whole idea of replacing buttons with finger movements is insane unless it's some sort of simple party game.

  • tancredo #39 2 years ago

    About the new motion controls of both platforms:

    - Sony Wands: I can see PS3 having the same problem than the Wii. The player will have to exclusively use the wands or the traditional controller. Impossible to use both. One excludes the other. So games will have to be built with both controls in mind, but independent from each other. So one of the control options will suffer greatly.

    On the plus side, the wii has shown it can work just fine.

    - Natal: It could have the problem of the lag, will have to wait on release to judge. But on the plus side, MS has repeatedly say the traditional controller will be able to coexist with Natal in the games. So basically the games will be able to support traditional controller only, plus the controller + natal (using gestures to increase the inmersion in a squad game, for example). So Natal and traditional controlers are "inclusive", they add to each other.

    Adding to it, we will also have the all natal games (I would think party games mostly),meant to be plaid exclusively with Natal but with the controller- only option built in.

    ++++++++
    If I have to judge the two today, based on potential, I would pick Natal as the best option
    Edited by tancredo at 23/12/09 @ 11:43

  • smelly #40 2 years ago

    "Adding to it, we will also have the all natal games (I would think party games mostly),meant to be plaid exclusively with Natal but with the controller- only option built in."

    WTF are you talking about? How the hell you going to control milo or that game where your jumping about in front of the tv hitting balls with a pad? Sheesh. Natal is nothing more than a sooped up eyetoy, you're standing in front of the tv waving your arms and legs about.. rivetting.

  • KayTannee #41 2 years ago

    It always shocks me how many people are so short sighted with the Natal. "It doesn't have buttons" is the cry, or its just going to be Wii games on my 360. ... The more likely thing is, it'll be Wii like games on the PS3, since at the end of the day its pretty much just a more accurate wii-mote.

    As somebody as said here, you can make hybrid games with Natal, Using both controller and motion capture.

    For FPS's, being the most popular genre, theres some big advantages to having Natal.

    For Example : Free look - Linkity Link . This is TrackIR5 used in ARMA2 on PC. Basically allows the user to look around the game world free of the body. So you can point gun forward and keep going that way, while looking around with just subtle movements of your head. Increased situational awareness = win.

    Example 2 : Incremental Lean, Inc Popping up or ducking - The PC market has had a lean function for a long long time, so that one can lean around corners without being shot at as easily. This has pretty much died since consoles don't have enough buttons for leaning, and the PC market just gets ports these days. Rather then 100% out or 100% in, leaning your real body slightly, would lean your ingame character slightly, letting you stick out just enough body to shoot. Getting shot less = Win

    Example 3 : Voice Command - Natal has a microphone built in, you could order AI team mates very easily with voice commands like hold, follow me, etc. Rather then using other complicated command menus that we have now. Also this could be expanded to militray style hand gestures if the game was that kind of sim war style game.

    Aslong as the lag isn't stupid, none of these features would be effected by small amounts.

    The eyetoy can track head movement, and you can wear a mic. But the Natal puts it all in one package and lets you still use your normal controller. These are only a few examples, I'm sure there is many many many more. So lets stop thinking narrowly about usinging it on its own, but more of a supplement to the original controller.
    Edited by KayTannee at 29/12/09 @ 19:16