Third Party Puzzle

By Rob Fahey Published 27 February, 2010

The idea that third parties can't do well on the Wii is firmly rooted and completely wrong.

GamesIndustry.biz, the trade arm of the Eurogamer Network, recently completed the next step in its evolution toward greater support for the videogames business with the implementation of a full registration system.

If the strength of feeling displayed on games forums and websites is a good measure of consumer sentiment, Nintendo is a company in gamers' black books right now. The stunning success of the Wii and the DS in reaching out to new audiences who have never played games before is viewed in the internet's darkest corners as a betrayal of core gamers, an abandonment of traditional games to be replaced with brightly-coloured, "waggle controlled" abominations.

The reality, of course, is somewhat different. Only this week, Nintendo announced dates for a line-up of Wii titles which should please any long-term fan of the company's output - Mario Galaxy 2, Metroid: Other M and Sin & Punishment 2 being key highlights for the hardcore audience. Many of the top sellers on the console are games which appeal broadly to upstream and downstream gamers alike - Mario Kart, New Super Mario Bros., Super Smash Bros Brawl and Mario Galaxy all appear in the console's top 10.

Viewed dispassionately, it's hard to see the Wii as the scourge which angry gamers claim it to be. It's unlikely to be the only console that an upstream gamer owns - but as a second machine, sitting alongside an Xbox 360 or a PS3, it's absolutely ideal, while for more casual gamers and young families, it's the ideal machine to sit alone under their TV. Hence, presumably, the machine's sales, which remain almost as high as the 360 and PS3 combined, and almost 20 million units higher than the mighty PS2 was at the same point in its lifespan.

So why the anger? On one hand, perhaps a certain sense of technological disappointment persists. Gamers are used to HD, to persistent online services with voice chat and cross-game messaging, and in those senses the Wii certainly does not stack up to the PS3 and 360. Nintendo's wisdom lay in recognising that the vast majority of its audience would not notice or care about those things, allowing it to save vast amounts of time and money by leaving them off the console - a decision whose knock-on effects are still felt in the much lower production costs of Wii games.

While this makes sense on a business level, a certain sense of disappointment from the existing fanbase is understandable - but not the harsh treatment Nintendo receives from its most vocal critics. In that case, I fear, a rather more unpleasant line of argument rears its ugly head - the idea that this is the young male demographic who view gaming as their own private playground railing against the sudden inclusion of women, older people and others in "their" pastime.

Yet if that factor - magnified and amplified, as always, by the internet's unfortunate side effect of making loud idiots seem like outraged majorities - explains some of the upstream consumer dissatisfaction with the Wii, where is the equivalent explanation for publishers' reticence to engage with the platform?

This, to me, is one of the least explicable foibles of publishers in recent years. A month does not pass without another publisher executive making a disparaging comment about his firm's prospects on the Wii, with doubts being expressed in the past few months alone by Ubisoft and SEGA, with Ubisoft going so far as to publicly announce that it is refocusing development efforts on the PS3 and 360.

Of course, the headline hardware figures which suggest that the Wii is the market's dominant platform aren't the only figures publishers have to consider. The tie ratio is also important, and the Wii has another factor to consider - Nintendo itself.

It's a long-held belief that only Nintendo games (and those from selected third parties who work closely with the Japanese platform holder) do well on Nintendo platforms. Both Sony and Microsoft publish titles for their consoles, of course, but these are key exclusives which lay the foundations for the console's success - Nintendo, some critics argue, not only lays the foundations, but goes on to build the whole damned house, and then lock the doors and windows.

In support of this argument, one need only look at the Wii's all-time top 10 - a list populated exclusively by Nintendo first-party titles. Case closed - or is it? The reality is that the popular view that nobody other than Nintendo is making money out of the Wii is not quite as simple, or as true, as it may seem. In fact, 76 games have now sold over a million copies on the Wii - of which, only 22 were first-party titles.

That's right - less than a third of the Wii's million sellers are first-party games. It may be rather different at the very top - just about everything that's sold over five million copies is a Nintendo game - but there's a lot of profit to be made in that ground between a million and five million units, especially considering how much more economical Wii development is compared with building games for the 360 or PS3. (Incidentally, the Wii also has more third-party million sellers than the PS3.)

These figures aren't discussed as much as they deserve to be, given the prevalence of the "Wii is awful for third parties" theme, but neither are they a secret - so why, in that case, are publishers so critical of the Wii? To some extent, this may be a little bit of sabre-rattling on their part - keenly aware of how profitable the Wii is for Nintendo, key publishers are unlikely to pass up on any opportunity to pressure the platform holder to drop its licensing fees by indicating that they're not happy with the money they're making from it.

More importantly, however, it may be a factor of the continuing inability of some studios to make the Wii work for them as a development platform. Even several years after launch, few developers outside of Nintendo itself have grasped the real potential of the console and its control methods. For every game which truly leverages the potential of the console to provide a unique and compelling experience (Silent Hill: Shattered Memories being a rare recent example), there are dozens of identikit mini-game compilations and on-rails shooters which compound their weakness as games with equally poor presentation.

Part of the problem here isn't creative drought, but rather a continuing aversion to risk-taking in the development process, which makes a certain amount of sense on the 360 or PS3 where budgets are so high but is tougher to explain on the Wii, where low budgets and rapid development should, in theory, free development teams up to be much more creative. The reality, however, is that many large publishers struggle to actually take advantage of those low-budget opportunities. Wasteful internal studio working cultures conspire to make even Wii game development expensive for these companies, stifling both their creativity and their profitability.

In other words, much of the "problem" with Nintendo's third-party market isn't actually a problem with Nintendo at all. The platform holder has created a console which, although not without its challengers, has sold almost 70 million units in a shockingly short space of time and proved a success with both a core demographic and with a wider audience, and which has the potential to keep development timescales and budgets low. Publishers failing to take advantage of that can blame Nintendo in public all they like - but it's to their own product line-ups and development practices that they should look for the solution.

For more views on the industry and to keep up to date with news relevant to the games business, read our sister website GamesIndustry.biz, where you can read this weekly editorial column as soon as it is posted.

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About Rob Fahey

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Comments (69) Latest comment 2 years ago

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  • JayScott #1 2 years ago

    Great article, Rob. So much truth in it, and the sinister notion that some 'core' gamers are just frightened of losing their hallowed territory through prejudice and sexism is clear. And your description of the 'loud idiots' on the internet made me lol.

  • Segnit #2 2 years ago

    A very enjoyable article. Thanks Rob, Thanks EG!

    But anyhow, one thing I want to touch on is the "a certain sense of technological disappointment persists" comment on the first page.

    The thing is, as a gamer, I don't like project "10 dollar", I don't like to to be forced to connect my games online before being granted access to play them in peace (or the draconian constant online in Ubisofts case).

    I also don't want to get involved with online multiplayer of every game I own, as some games are meant to be single player only. Shoving multiplayer into singleplayer experiences is becoming an increasingly common tool of publishers to dissuade piracy and second hand gaming rather then to have something fun to play.

    I think that it's a blessing that Nintendo is not at the cutting edge of at least the online market. Because cutting edge in that field would've been a significant entry barrier to 4 yearolds, their moms and their granddads (basically the large chucnk of the casual Wii crowd). I'm glad that at least one platform is conserving and fostering the traditional offline single player and coop aspects of campaigns.

    And although I am a technology whore myself (I love my 1200p gaming), I am thankful that Nintendo proved once and for all that extreme graphics without heavy innovation in gameplay rarely captures the imagination of gamers.

    Again please moar of these articles!

  • Hendo #3 2 years ago

    Great article! I only hope the angry minority will read it.

  • thesombrerokid #4 2 years ago

    publishers like ubisoft ar 'refocusing on ps3/360' because they can shit out a million selling wii game ala just dance with very little effort and money, theres no incentive to slog all day pumping hundreds of thousands of pounds on another 'de blob'.

    the truth is though if de blob was as acessible and drop in drop out as just dance and had a similar marketing budget it'd've sold more than just dance.

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #5 2 years ago

    This is the real problem with Wii games:

    http://ww w.eurogamer.net/gamedb.php?sort...

    Compare that with the xbox or ps3 equivalent pages, and you won't see any 7/10 games on the top page.

  • Onelove1867 #6 2 years ago

    It's a similar situation to the iPhone and the content on the App Store.

    Developers CAN get success and make good games, but they need to start showing abit of guile and imagination. There's an attitude amongst many publishers in particular that shoehorning major franchises into a different platform, with ham fisted controls and restrictions as far as the eye can see, is the answer. It isn't. I have been a keen iPhone gamer since the App Store launched over a year ago.. I have yet to play a scaled down console franchise that is actually even half way to being good. Not Tiger Woods, not Red Alert (despite the potential for good RTS') and not Need for Speed.

    It's similar with the Wii. There's just a black hole of creative game design to accommodate the Wii's unique (although not unique for long..) control scheme, a black hole only successfully avoided by a handful of studio's not directly answering to Nintendo. The industry has also spent far too long walking the "hardcore games for Wii" line, showing a complete ignorance of the Wii's userbase and target audience.

    Thankfully many seem to be waking up to it and either adjusting or walking away. The only problem I can potentially see as a Playstation 3 and Xbox 360 owner, is that we'll see the same cycle of shoehorned controls and un-imaginative game design kick start again at the end of this year..

  • KDR_11k #7 2 years ago

    I have yet to play a scaled down console franchise that is actually even half way to being good.

    HAWX is half way there, the problem is that the other half would have been piss easy to implement but they somehow didn't do it.

  • smelly #8 2 years ago

    As i've pointed out numerous times..

    it's not nintendos fault that the 3rd parties are releasing endless shit on the machine .. then moaning that it doesnt sell.

  • the_exile #9 2 years ago

    "where is the equivalent explanation for publishers' reticence to engage with the platform?...A month does not pass without another publisher executive making a disparaging comment about his firm's prospects on the Wii"

    Please look up the word reticence (not the same as hesitance) in the dictionary before you start talking about "loud idiots" on the internet

    "[the wii has] proved a success with a core demographic"

    Please define the parameters for success. For every last core gamer I know, without exception, the wii is an irrelevance. for many of these it is an object of derision.

  • SirScratchalot #10 2 years ago

    I guess it's just fallen out of usage for a lot of people. It's given me some genuinely, genuinley fantstic game time though.

  • ongjg #11 2 years ago

    It shows that certain devs take a 'good graphics = good game' approach i.e assassins creed (the 1st one), and lets face it, crysis isn't a great game under the graphics either.
    When those devs can't use raw graphical power to wow gamers it is revealed how shallow some of their games really are. Then of course they blame Nintendo instead of recognizing their own failure to understand how to develop for the wii, especially with 'waggle' controls.

  • Charlie_Miso #12 2 years ago

    Great stuff

  • JayScott #13 2 years ago

    @ the_exile

    Um...the word works perfectly well in that context. It means 'reluctance', fyi.

  • the_exile #14 2 years ago

    it means reluctant to speak. Then he goes on about how capcom, sega etc are indeed speaking about the wii, albeit negatively. And he makes this mistake after calling some contributors "loud idiots".

    @Frod. SMG?? Who knows??? Small manhood-bearing gamer, perhaps. Why don't you cut back on your use of the word "retard" by the way. It might make you look less of a twat.
    Edited by 1 at 27/02/10 @ 11:03

  • JayScott #15 2 years ago

    It is also synonymous for a basic idea of 'reluctance' - don't be ridiculous in suggesting it's not, please.

  • Evolution #16 2 years ago

    Here here, nice work Rob.

  • the_exile #17 2 years ago

    @Jayscott

    Okay. well then we'll agree that a word meaning primarily 'reluctance to speak' followed by a sentence in which the people described as being reluctant to speak then are said to make regular "disparaging comments" is just shit journalism.

    as vocal wii detractor I was called a "loud idiot" by the author. I wouldn't normally be so pedantic

  • FogHeart #18 2 years ago

    Well this is a good way to poke a hole in your own argument:-

    "It's unlikely to be the only console that an upstream gamer owns - but as a second machine, sitting alongside an Xbox 360 or a PS3, it's absolutely ideal, while for more casual gamers and young families, it's the ideal machine to sit alone under their TV."

    I had a PS2, and when all three nextgen consoles became available I went for the Wii. There have been a great many games that I've enjoyed in that time, but I was constantly badgered to buy a PS3. "Are you going to get a game like Fallout 3 or Bioshock or Far Cry II or GTA IV on it? Ever?"

    Come the announcement of the Arc/Wand I was starting to lose heart and when (but not because) Uncharted II was released I capitulated. By that time, I was convinced that there was an itch for a certain kind of game that I'd never, ever get scratched on the Wii. Up until that time I was simply buying them for the PC which is hooked up to the TV and operated by a 360 controller - a setup which obviated any requirement for a 360 itself...

    So, just as this article appears to concede, the Wii won't fulfil all the needs of a gamer like me, and I don't think I'm alone in wanting to play games like Bioshock and Fallout 3 and GTA IV alongside de Blob and Darkside Chronicles.

    I'm not a Wii hater, it's more that I'm frustrated and disappointed by it. You could argue that it's not Nintendo's fault that no one is making the kind of games I describe above. What's telling is what happened with Dead Space. Rather than port it to the Wii and borrow the control scheme from Resi 4, Visceral made the light-gun game Extraction - even mocking us by making the first playable frame of the game look like you're bout to control Isaac just like the original. What did Visceral conclude about porting the game? That the Wii couldn't do it or Visceral couldn't do it? It's a massive, massive question that would really inform this debate.

  • makeamazing #19 2 years ago

    Sorry the article for me just creates more questions than answers. :)

    What i want to know is what proportion of those 3rd party wii games are Fitness, Dance and rock band titles. That would make for more interesting reading, rather than just saying theres a large number of third party games that sell well. Give me a list of those games (cause that would definately make for interesting reading). I'm not trying to diss on the Wii, but people say these things, some games companies are dropping it, all we have here is another report with "partial" information.

    Personally i think the issue will be less of a problem when Nintendo release a HD version, because it should be easier for games companies to make all three versions of the game for relatively the same cost.

  • Stompy #20 2 years ago

    Only Eurogamer would write what is, in effect, an editorial that brands a proportion of its own readership as "loud idiots".

    Excellent.

  • Charlie_Miso #21 2 years ago

    That's cause they know them well.

  • malloc #22 2 years ago

    Good article, the lack of creativity from publishers, particularly Western ones is almost embarrassing. But then that's what you get when companies are headed up by salesmen and accountants.

  • Nazo #23 2 years ago

    I never understood the argument that only Nintendo can make successful games for the Wii. I doubt much of the Wii audience know or care who made the game in the first place.

    The difference is that Nintendo know how to develop and market games for the Wii audience. Too many 3rd party games are either shit, poorly marketed, or target the wrong demographic.

  • raion #24 2 years ago

    [ignore]I find it hilarious. Back in the day, when the NES launched, Nintendo adopted the "seal of quality" approach to avoid the situation Atari was in, and allow developers with a yearly maximum quota of games they could release on the platform, so they had to go with their best. An excellent idea, despite the fact that too many horrible games passed anyway, and it just pissed off everybody else in the industry.[/ignore]
    edit: I've been notified this is not true.

    Now, Nintendo is in the exact situation Atari was in at the time, a platform with good games drowned by endless amounts of [insert vulgar pejorative here]. It's that they are now satisfied to just sit back and watch those license fees roll in, as that cascade of inexcusable poor attempts at games gets released.

    I'm not blaming Nintendo for that (not openly anyway), and it's clear the situation is in large part due to publishers not even trying to put in any effort (I'm sure there are developers with wonderful ideas, but they are stuck working on some ridiculous project because, hey, it's the Wii, we're in for the quick buck). It's just that the big N certainly isn't doing anything to try and improve the situation. Remember SEGA, Nintendo! Now you don't give a damn about the reputation of your brand name because you're swimming in money, but once the brand name isn't worth a thing, you're out.
    Edited by 1 at 01/03/10 @ 18:45

  • Retroid #25 2 years ago

    If only the Wii Store wasn't a bit crap when it comes to functionality. At least they've started doing (some) demos but otherwise only the dedicated will bother with downloading anything from the service. They've demonstrated they can do streaming video, why don't they do so on the details pages for Virtual Console / WiiWare stuff?

    It's awful :(

  • figaro7 #26 2 years ago

    As much as i enjoy being a multi console owner, this generation would be probably the worst in history if it wasnt for nintendos wii.

  • TonyHarrison #27 2 years ago

    It's sunk costs. Developers have invested money in HD engines and will continue to use them regardless of how much money they lose because they are already invested in it. Take Capcom for example, Bionic Commando and Dark Void are even bigger flops than any of their Wii games, yet they do not talk about shifting away from HD because of those failures. Instead they continue to splurge on costly games. However, one or two more Bionic Commando/Dark Voids may force them to wake up and realise where they are truly losing money...

  • jozz #28 2 years ago

    "Viewed dispassionately, it's hard to see the Wii as the scourge which angry gamers claim it to be. It's unlikely to be the only console that an upstream gamer owns"
    Has there really been much anger directed at the Wii? Apathy and derision definitely but anger?
    I'd guess that most people who feel unhappy with the console have been disappointed with the games instead of Nintendo or the influx of the 4 to 84 demographic. That was the problem for me for sure.

    I bought one at launch and the quality and quantity of releases just wasn't at the same level as the other two consoles (for the games I was interested in of course). Plus when they did arrive most of them sold so poorly that it hurt the chances of more to come. There's no question that 3rd party games can sell on the Wii. The sheer amount of poorly made 'me too' shovelware being indicative of that but the games that might appeal to the core gamer like No More Heroes 1/2, Zak & Wiki, Madworld and Dead Space Extraction haven't had the same luck or at least it seems that way.

  • Rubarack #29 2 years ago

    The other thing is gamers complaints are not "third party Wii games don't sell" but "good third party wii games don't sell anymore. What those million selling titles are is relevant. Because if it's just a load of mini game collections and light gun games that doesn't exactly bode well for the Wii's future prospects.

  • Diomedes #30 2 years ago

    I think third party companies know better what suits them that you Rob.

    Nintendo has said they have 76 million sellers,22 of them are theirs.We must add the Mario-starring games as both Olympic games that are Sega games but sell mostly because of Mario in it.Oddly ,Nintendo has marked games as Animal Crossing and Brain Training Wii Academy as "third party " too when they are first party.That makes 26 Nintendo games on the list.

    The remaining crop of "million sellers" is composed of tons of music games (Rock Band,GH III,GH WT,Rock Band Beatles,Just Dance,Disney Sing It,High School Musical),Dance Dance Revolution ,GH Aerosmith,High School Musical Sing It!,Hannah Montana),and fitness(Deca Sports ,Ea Sports Active,Jillian Michaels Fitness Ultimatum ,Active Life outdoor Challenge,We Ski ) games.

    To that you must add some plattform games as Ben10,Lego Indiana Jones,Lego Batman and Lego Star Wars and Sonic Unleashed and Sonic and the Secret Rings.

    Sports games ,with Big Beach Sports ,Tiger Woods ,Tiger Woods 08,Fifa 08 and PES 08 (note the absence of the latest iterations ..),Shaun White Snowboarding..

    Casual stuff and minigames...Game Party ,Game Party 2,Monopoly ,Rayman Rabid Rabbits ,Rayman Rabid Rabbits 2.

    And then a little number of core games .....COD 3(yes 3 ,not world at war or MW Reflex),RE Umbrella Chronicles (not Darkside Chronicles) ,the RE4 port ,House of the Dead 1 and 2 (and not Overkill),Super MOnkey Ball and MH3 (a title that would have sold three times that on the PSP and as much if not more on the PS3 in Japan).

    So ,as we can see with my much better analysys we can see three things.

    1.In the Wii mostly Nintendo games sell.Theres a market outside ,true ,but very concentred around music games,fitness games ,casual minigames and some plattform games with kiddie attraction.

    2.The Wii is trending down.The old iterations of games as the shooting games (RE UC ,House of the Dead 1 and 2 ) did sell a lot more than the current games do.The music genre as a whole (the wii strongest ) is declining fast,and even the sports games see the 08 iterations selling much more that the 09 and 10 ones.Besides ,once someone has 1 or two fitness games at home its difficult to sell them another one.Most of the games of the list ,excepting the recent Nintendo ones ,are from 2007 and 2008.

    3.The Wii massive userbase can still churn out some good numbers for some traditional games ,specially in holidays when cheap wii games are a good present,so some games here and there will enter eventually the 1 million mark worldwide.Still ,those games are cheaper and add a weaker income that the same game sales in a HD plattform ,and combined the PS3 and 360 and PC development is much better for a company that betting on some Wii hardcore game that wont sell or try luck with another music or fitness game.

    Now, THIS is the reality.And third parties know it and act accordingly.

    Good luck they dont have you as an analyst Rob.

  • Diomedes #31 2 years ago

    For those interested ,heres the full list :

    1- Wii Sports
    2- Wii Play
    3- Wii Fit
    4- Mario Kart Wii
    5- Wii Sports Resort
    6- New Super Mario Bros. Wii
    7- Wii Fit Plus
    8- Super Smash Bros. Brawl
    9- Mario Galaxy
    10- Mario & Sonic at the olympic Games
    11- Mario Party 8
    12- The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
    13- Link's Crossbow Training
    14- Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock
    15- Animal Crossing: City Folk
    16- Carnival Games
    17- Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree
    18- LEGO Star Wars: The Complete Saga
    19- Guitar Hero: World Tour
    20- Super Paper Mario
    21- Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games
    22- Wii Music
    23- EA Sports Active
    24- Wario Ware: Smooth Moves
    25- Sonic And the Secret Rings
    26- Deca Sports
    27- Mario Strikers Charged
    28- Game Party
    29- My Fitness Coach
    30- Rayman Raving Rabbids 2
    31- RE4
    32- Rayman Raving Rabbids
    33- Rayman Raving Rabbids: TV Party
    34- LEGO Indiana Jones
    35- Metroid Prime 3
    36- MySims
    37- Big Beach Sports
    38- Just Dance
    39- High School Musical: Sing it!
    40- Lego Batman
    41- Sonic Unleashed
    42- Star Wars
    43- Shaun White Snowboarding
    44- Pokemon Battle Revolution
    45- CoD: World At War
    46- Cooking mama: Cook Off
    47- Super Monkey Ball
    47- Tigger Woods PGA Tour 08
    48- We Ski
    49- Rock Band
    50- Active Life: Outdoor challenge
    51-CoD 3
    52- Game Party 2
    53- RE: UC
    54- Tiger Woods
    55- Smarty Pants
    56- Hannah Montana
    57- Dance Dance Revolution
    58- Mario Super Sluggers
    59- Star Wars: The Clone Wars
    60- Red Steel
    61- New Play Control! Mario Power Tennis
    62- The House Of the Dead 2&3 Return
    63- Monopoly
    64- PES'08
    65- Carnival Games
    66- Ben10
    67- MySims Kingdoms
    68- Guitar Hero: Aerosmith
    69- The Beatles: Rock Band
    70- Jilian Michaels'Fitness Ultimatum 2009
    71- Punch-out!
    72- Bloom Blox
    73- Disney Sing it!
    74- Monster Hunter Tri
    75- High School Musical
    76- Fifa 08

  • Stuz359 #32 2 years ago

    I agree with the articles conclusion, it is the developers failure to engage with the Wii that is the disappointment here.

    I think of all the great last gen games, FF X, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Black, Halo, Fable etc, etc...

    Some truly epic games and similar types of games could be made for the Wii and I wonder why they are not. You must have teams of people who were basically at the peak of their game last gen who could make these games.

    The developers and publishers themselves have shot themselves in the foot by not creating these experiences, and left us mostly with a sea (of crap) of mini-games and on the rail shooters.

  • pmayes #33 2 years ago

    Perhaps I can shed some light on the development side of things. Most publishers want to have their titles appear on all the major platforms, but usually aren't willing to pay for the extra money to develop an original, ground-up Wii version. That, in a nutshell, is why the Wii often ends up with a port of one of the lead SKUs with some waggle controls tacked on.

    This is not because we want to make crap Wii games, it is simply a result of time/budget constraints. I can understand why Ubisoft and others want to turn their focus away from the Wii, because it holds back the progress on the other SKUs. In a multi-platform environment you have to always weigh every decision based on its impact across all SKUs. The PS3 and 360 are more or less the same, but the Wii is way out there on it's own, dragging the others down. Its fundamentally different approach to online and other things makes it very hard to write common engine code. You have to have people full time supporting the Wiis quirks (and I'm not even going to mention their development tools!).

    That said, there is scope to make excellent 3rd-party Wii games, but you need to approach the Wii differently to the other platforms. The problem is, no one is willing to pay for you to do that.
    Edited by 1 at 28/02/10 @ 01:04

  • Stoatboy #34 2 years ago

    Edit: Bah! Beaten to it by pmayes. But I will have my say anyway... :p

    One of the reasons the Wii is a pain in the arse is that it's so different to the other two that it makes cross-platform development a nightmare. The 360 and the PS3 are in the same ballpark when it comes to power, memory and controllers, etc. but the Wii is a completely different beast. Whilst there are obviously costs associated with getting a game on both the 360 and PS3, the costs are much greater for the Wii, requiring most if not all of the assets to be altered, fundamental changes to game structure and a reworking of the control system, amongst other things. It's much closer to making an entirely different game (which is what some franchises have plumped for), so it's much more expensive to cover all platforms than in previous generations (before counting the already increased cost of development from previous generations). The risk is that if your game doesn't sell well across all platforms (and many decent games don't), then all that extra cash spent on a Wii version was just throwing good money after bad.


    And doing a Wii exclusive is a huge gamble for many reasons, not least because, as far as I can tell, no-one has yet figured out what percentage of that huge installed user base has any intention of ever buying another game again now that they have their Wii Sports machine.
    Edited by 1 at 27/02/10 @ 14:25

  • KDR_11k #35 2 years ago

    MH3 (a title that would have sold three times that on the PSP and as much if not more on the PS3 in Japan)

    Capcom stated they don't have the money to make MH3 for the PS3. Sales aren't what matters to the bottomline, profitability is and selling the same on the PS3 means less profit since the dev costs would be higher (on average 2.5 times as high, more if they reused MH1/2 assets in 3). Why do you say "not WaW" when WaW is on the list? Yes, CoD3 sold a lot but so did WaW. MW Reflex didn't sell as much (yet) because it was a VERY late port.

    Also what definition of "core" are you using that excludes Sonic games? I can accept that sports games may be on the border (though they've been around last gen and that is the core) but Sonic? BTW, the low sales of PES after 08 on the Wii are simply a result of the late release, the numbers suggest that the later the Wii version is released, the less it sells. No idea why they can't release it on the same date as the other versions.

    Good luck they dont have you as an analyst Rob.

    Pfft, analysts can claim the biggest bullshit (like that the PS3 will win this generation) and still keep their jobs.
    Edited by 1 at 27/02/10 @ 14:42

  • xandaca #36 2 years ago

    Weirdly enough, I wrote an almost identical (if somewhat longer) argument on my Gamasutra blog last week:

    [link url=http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/X anderMarkham/20100220/4459/Wii_Fail_Can_traditional_third_pa rty_games_ever_succeed_on_a_Nintendo_console.php
    ]http://ww w.gamasutra.com/blogs/XanderMar...[/link]

    Decent article, but skirts around many of the key issues. Third-parties can of course have success on the Wii, but they need to invest in winning the loyalty of the audience with well-promoted, high-quality exclusives. The risk is that the cost of developing an exclusive game for a single console is high (even for the Wii), but since the Nintendo audience is very different to that on the HD consoles for a variety of reasons, you can't treat them as identikit and expect to come away smiling. The argument that you can't guarantee sales because Wii owners only want casual games is a ridiculous excuse though: if you create something appealing that feels important, people will come. That's the difference between companies who create markets, like Nintendo this gen, and those who follow them, like everyone else trying to catch up.

    Anyway, full thoughts in my blog article. I won't regurgitate them all here.

  • secombe #37 2 years ago

    Some truly epic games and similar types of games could be made for the Wii and I wonder why they are not.

    This is the biggest frustration for me, look back at the early threads where people had just tried Wii Sports for the first time, people were listing loads of great ideas which we all assumed would be along sooner or later...but they haven't appeared.

    PES has been one of the few truly innovative titles, featuring a concept that most people would never have even thought of. But aside from that, although we've had a handful of great titles, nothing has really captured the imagination to that level.

  • Hendo #38 2 years ago

    I find it hilarious. Back in the day, when the NES launched, Nintendo adopted the "seal of quality" approach to avoid the situation Atari was in, and allow developers with a yearly maximum quota of games they could release on the platform, so they had to go with their best. An excellent idea, despite the fact that too many horrible games passed anyway, and it just pissed off everybody else in the industry.

    This is a myth. It was never the intention or was ever carried out like that, it was more that it was the way of showing which games were officially allowed to exist on the system, as opposed to some dodgy 3rd party who wanted to release a game without paying the licensing. You pay for the privilege of releasing a game on the NES and you get given the seal of quality.
    Edited by 1 at 27/02/10 @ 17:30

  • TonyHarrison #39 2 years ago

    "MH3 (a title that would have sold three times that on the PSP and as much if not more on the PS3 in Japan). "

    What are we basing this ludicrous theory on? When it was released last summer, it comfortably outsold every PS3 game ever released in Japan in a very short space of time, and it's only since Final Fantasy XIII released that ANY game on the PS3 has outsold it.

    By the way, you also contradict yourself by saying that World at War didn't sell a million, and then post it in the list of million sellers. That's a special kind of stupid.
    Edited by 2 at 27/02/10 @ 18:07

  • varsas #40 2 years ago

    @Diomedes: And then a little number of core games .....COD 3(yes 3 ,not world at war or MW Reflex)

    It's interesting that World at War is higher up in the list you later quote than COD3 :)

  • aine #41 2 years ago

    Retailers are a big part of the problem too. Remember when Game/Gamestation refused to stock Muramasa? And you can bet your arse you won't find it in Tesco either. Publishers aren't going to bother taking creative risks if they can't even get their games on shelves.

  • smelly #42 2 years ago

    >It shows that certain devs take a 'good graphics = good game' approach

    Its not just the devs, its the reviewers to. Take modern warfare. That game got 9/10 and 10/10 scores when it was released on 360/ps3. Then the EXACT same game got released on the wii, but because it had worse graphics - it got a 6/10 score.

    If it was THAT good a game, you'd expect it to get the same score regardless of the graphics.

    Which in turn makes you wonder if mediocre shooters like bioshock would've still have gotten 10/10 scores if they didnt have stunning graphics.

    All i know is, i'll buy a good game regardless of which platform it's on. I'd have bought a lot more 3rd party wii games, if they were half decent - unfortunately most arent. So i'll stick with metroid prime, mario, etc.


  • Golgo #43 2 years ago

    what a refreshing and enlightening article! good job, Mr Fahey.

  • khite #44 2 years ago

    I own a lot of 3rd party games for the Wii. But the ones that have got the most play are the ones I can play with my girlfriend, who is a 'hardcore' gamer of the 8/16bit generation (no she is not Rinry ...). The only game which could drag me away from my PC is Muramassa. But I feel this way about all consoles. KBM and solid HD visuals (although like many online players I will scale the visuals back for a minimum 60-100 fps) will always be my personal taste. And I don't have a super expensive rig - just what I need for work and a mid range graphics card.

    The Wii is not my 2nd system. It is my 1st console system because of the huge number of classic platformers and old-skool console games, as well as fun quick puzzle games on Wii-ware. I like retro, indie and niche titles, and am willing to play them in my sitting room. I don't want to play Left 4 Dead 2 or Bioshock or MW2 in that context.

    A lot of 'Hardcore' PC gamers I know with Wii's feel the same. We want console games for the Wii, not watered down versions of HD console games, that we already see as watered down versions of PC gaming.

    The Wii was worth its cost for the 30 odd games I have for it. Sure plenty of them end up with metacritic scores in the 'mixed or average' zone, but most of those games got genuinely mixed reviews. Good. That means I can buy a game based on different views rather than the A+++ hype that seems to surround some big cinematic games.

    Publishers need to work out not just who owns Wii's but why. Would I buy a SMG quality Sonic title? Yes. I recently bought TvCUAS too, even though my Dreamcast with arcade sticks is still plugged in to the TV - trust me I have plenty of fighting games from that golden era. I would buy Powerstone 3 too, especially if they integrated some tilt controls for sections. DSE I bought but never finished after a crash - too long and slow. But HOTD:oK gets played everytime I have a mate to stay - it is an evenings entertainment.

    Nintendo put two i's in Wii. It was from the start a console to played by a range of real people in the same room, together. Even if they take turns rather than co-op. Publishers need to think about these things before they throw another interesting but ultimately flawed experiment at the market.

  • DanielRussell4 #45 2 years ago

    Some of the words used in this are very obscure. I am 15 years old so take that into consideration but i found some parts really hard to read ("foibles" or something like that). I think accessability needs to be taken into account because some of this was just too overwhelming. (I'm not just stupid, I got an A* grade in my english language GCSE :p)

  • DanielRussell4 #46 2 years ago

    Some of the words used in this are very obscure. I am 15 years old so take that into consideration but i found some parts really hard to read ("foibles" or something like that). I think accessability needs to be taken into account because some of this was just too overwhelming. (I'm not just stupid, I got an A* grade in my english language GCSE :p)

  • rotmm #47 2 years ago

    Daniel,

    At 15, I loved to come across new words. At 42, I still love to come across new words.

    How do you ever think that your vocabulary is going to improve if you don't get challenged every now and again ;)

    Oh, and "foibles" isn't in any way an obscure word :p

  • SpaceMonkey77 #48 2 years ago

    I think that Diomedes and Pmayes, summed it up nicely. Read what they say and think a little.

    Good article Rob, but it fails to dig deep enough. The reasons behind the lack of third party games is deeply routed in cost and the highly technical aspects of creating a game. Now, it might mean nothing to the average gamer or man in the street, but such technical details would probably answer all of your questions, as to the Wii developer/publisher apathy etc (this will be different depending who you ask). You'll never officially hear the reasons why Wii is avoided and apathy high, until Wii dies out. Those in the dev community, some who no doubt work for many publishers etc we know, can't speak freely without reprimand, which is why a renegade few (freelance or otherwise) will drop details of the problem development process in blogs, forums etc, away from the bright, flashing lights. Therefore, there will never be any official confirmation of this Wii problem. Kudos to those in the dev community who speak out and enlighten us, though.

    If you want clandestine answers and a wider perspective beyond gamers and reviewers like yourself, go seek some of those who work in the dev community, and have done so on Wii to know its troubles and pitfalls, compared to 360, PS3 and PC. Now that, would make a great article and really answer much posed questions on Wii. Make sure that their names are not mentioned, if they'll get in trouble for whistle blowing.

    On the other side of the Wii apathy coin, is the very vocal, what some might call disappointed Wii apathetic gamers. These gamers largely, don;t hate Nintendo games, but just what Wii is, rather than what it could have been better than it is. I'm on of these people, a once staunch Nintendo fan, who still loves and enjoys their games, but meets his gaming need elsewhere, with a DS at close hand. I can only speak for myself, but you know the thoughts of the others on Wii, so I won't dig that up again. I will say that I don't think its a 'male territory marked' thing at all, as you may assume, as the likes of Xbox Live in contrast will bring you into contact with varied people from all walks of life too.

    IMO, the rise of XNA and PSN (iPhone too), now also offer much cheaper options for game development, than even Wii, when Wii was originally the cheapest console to develop for. So, while you get costly high end games for 360, PS3 and PC on DVD/BD, in contrast these small code efforts offer another outlet, which undercuts Wii. All of a sudden, Wii isn't needed anymore, and those who have laid siege to it, regardless or age, sex or demographic, can have it.

    Lastly, while you feel free to insult some of your readers with labels like 'loud idiots', those readers also have an opinion that is just as valid as yours. I would have thought the supposedly professional website like Eurogamer, would respect all opinions equally, but it appears that's not the case, when you need to resort to uppercut and haymaker insults. That Games Industry.biz move to membership makes me wonder, though. Is it because the consumer can voice an opinion there, no matter how harsh it is too industry folk or is it just to filter wheat from chaff?

    Nintendo have always been playing catch up, so I shouldn't really have built my hopes up for them this gen, in the home console front, and I've given up on them meeting my gaming needs. While I agree their controls are unique and bringing the masses, games are about more than just their controls, and I think many devs can't think up game concepts compelling enough to match that, let alone dig the controls much. The Virtual Boy was also a Nintendo console with unique aspects, but back then, no one agreed with that concept either, and apathy (and headaches) for it, killed it. Even at huge acceptance, the same will happen to Wii eventually, in a long tail PS2 way, but with large scale apathy from both core gamers and publishers. Fair play to those who enjoy theirs and want to stick with it.

    At least you are playing games at all, on whatever.
    Edited by 1 at 28/02/10 @ 00:30

  • jozz #49 2 years ago

    @DanielRussell4

    I wouldn't blame you for failing to understand the meaning behind 'upstream and downstream gamer'. It's a rubbish substitute for the more common descriptions of the two demographics (core and mainstream, traditional and non-traditional etc.) . Although you really should be able to read the rest of the article!
    Edited by 2 at 28/02/10 @ 01:02

  • Retroid #50 2 years ago

    A little something for DanielRussell4.

    ;)

  • Stuz359 #51 2 years ago

    Could I add to my points, is there a bit of snobbishness on developers parts to the Wii?

    I know the industry is always trying to focus on new technological advances and is always geared towards it. It always seemed like the industry was hedging it's bets on next generation technology rather than seeing the opportunities the Wii represented.

  • Hulle #52 2 years ago

    Great article. Well written.. Thanks.

  • JetSetWilly #53 2 years ago

    Great article. It ought to be posted at the top of the forum and stickied.

  • Stompy #54 2 years ago

    Daniel - you got an A* in your English Language GCSE, but you can't look up a word in an online dictionary?

    If I teach you at college I am going to belittle you until you either give up or grow balls.

  • Incarta #55 2 years ago

    I am that "second console" gamer. And I'm perfectly happy. Good article, telling it how it is.

  • Diomedes #56 2 years ago

    Well,I didnt see WAW at the list it seems,but that doesnt invalidate my arguement.

  • Diomedes #57 2 years ago

    As for MH on the PS3,I think if Capcom can churn out a big budget into throwing to the PS3 games as Lost Planet 2,Dead Rising 2 ,Dark Void (well,this probably hadnt a very big budget) etc to sell maybe 150K-200k units in Japan and maybe 1.5-2 million worlwide they can objetively justify spending some money to get a game that would get in Japan alone 1 million for sure and probably more (it seems MH is right now nearly as big as FF) and build a userbase for the future.

    Thing is ,I believe,that looking at the first half of 2007 sales and the lagging japanese sales until recently ,Capcom actually feared that the PS3 would be a real niche machine specially in Japan at this point in the game.Obviously ,they were wrong,as the PS3 is a major player worlwide and even in Japan core releases tend to do well saleswise while in the Wii each release is a coin toss and most end up bad.I understand Capcom reasons to change to Wii at the time (lower development costs ,it looked as it was going to be "the ps2 of the generation",the PS3 was lagging in sales specially in Japan ,etc) ,but I think things turned down a bit different and a PS3 release would have guaranteed at least 1 million as in the Wii and probably more.Well,this is my opinion.I wouldnt see so strange to see a MH announced for the PS3 some point in the future.

  • wez_316 #58 2 years ago

    @ Mentalist(air): (Post No. 5)

    Looking at the link you gave to sorting the Eurogamer Wii game scores I realised something quickly. Most Wii games that scored 8 and 9 out of 10 aren't even included on the list. That list doesn't seem to include any recent Wii titles at all. I'm pretty shocked that you didn't notice that... clearly you are somebody who doesn't read Wii reviews often on Eurogamer otherwise it woud have easily been noticeable to you.

  • President_Weasel #59 2 years ago

    "If it was THAT good a game, you'd expect it to get the same score regardless of the graphics."

    No, you'd expect it to get marked down for having shit graphics. Obviously.

  • TonyHarrison #60 2 years ago

    "Well,I didnt see WAW at the list it seems,but that doesnt invalidate my arguement."

    You used WAW as an example to your argument that the Wii is trending down, with sequels to early successes selling worse than the originals, whilst failing to realise that WAW has done precisely the opposite, with Reflex well on the way to beating it as well, despite being a port of a 2 year old game. In other words, the complete opposite to what you claimed is happening.

    I'd say that pretty much invalidates that particular argument. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why you were permabanned from that other website for posting such similar nonsense...

  • SpaceMonkey77 #61 2 years ago

    @Otogizoshi

    I criticise Nintendo where its valid IMO, true, but you make the big mistake of assuming I won't criticise others like Sony, MS and Apple, where I think something has to be said. It would be easy to assume, 'look, fanboy', but I'm above that. Look around Eurogamer and you'll see evidence of that I also criticise or big up others.

    Feel free to laugh at my last post, but the points I made are very valid, which you failed to even address or question. Do you think you can make a better counter argument to the points in my last post? By all means, have a shot at it.

    We hardly ever get any negative views about Wii, from devs and pubs, because they tread carefully in fear of having their Nintendo license snatched away. And when the random few do speak out, they are shouted down by Wii fans, or have to retract their statements, like a certain Capcom employee recently did. Its very easy to dismiss a gamer like myself, if I say something negative, but when it comes from those who actually create games do so, some look at them like they just lynched someone, when they should have a better view of the Wii pros and cons horizon than most. Even this isn't good enough for some people to understand and acknowledge.

    But of course, people will believe what they want to believe.

  • alcides #62 2 years ago

    That the Wii doesn't appeal to gamers doesn't make them either loud or idiotic. They are consummers. No matter if a product is great or rubbish, you don't throw a trantrum because it doesn't sell.

    If your only reference for opinion is one single guy, then you're the idiot. Games-related forums are attended by gamers. It's not our fault or problem if editors and developers are only listening to us and can't see the market as it is. Ultimately, as Mr Fahey points out, if a game doesn't sell, it might just be that it's rubbish. Please leave gamers and their opinion of the Wii out of it.

    Then there is the matter of the "loud idiots" being the ones to introduce the hardware to the household. You have to factor this to account for the Wii's early succes at least.

    You can't argue that developpers aren't trying and then blame gamers for criticising them. So your argument goes: developpers don't do great games on the Wii because gamers say Wii games are rubbish? I do not claim that the logic doesn't EXIST in developpers' minds, just that you should refrain from calling us "loud idiots" for making, well, pretty much the same point as you do.

  • man.the.king #63 2 years ago

    "More importantly, however, it may be a factor of the continuing inability of some studios to make the Wii work for them as a development platform. Even several years after launch, few developers outside of Nintendo itself have grasped the real potential of the console and its control methods."

    I think Rob Fahey is giving too much credit to Nintendo for its control methods. Some of the "hardcore" games listed that have done well make use of the motion controls only sparingly, e.g. Super Mario Galaxy, Super Mario Brothers Wii. In that light, especially considering that these bestsellers make very little use of the motion controls themselves, I fail to see the "real potential" of the console. When you consider that these games do not make much use of the motion controls, the Wii as a console doesn't seem to offer much new. The games that have made extensive use of the motion controls and have done well are the games like "Wii Sports", "Wii Sports Resort" (or something named like that), Wii Fit, etc. By no stretch of the imagination can I call these games hardcore. Instead, they seem to me to be the very definition of casual.

  • alcides #64 2 years ago

    Hello @Man.the.King , I hope someone's still reading this.

    I agree with you here, except on the definition of casual. Casual means pick-up-and-play, but as a behaviour towards and way of consuming games. In no way are games themselves to be labelled "casual" or not. For instance, Animal Crossing used to be quite an obscure IP and you really had to be a harcore to have expected and meant to play it on GC, even to have known about it from its N64 japanese debut. Yet it's wrongly equated with "casual" today. Because it always was a game meant to be played casually, but at first only by the core who even knew about it. If it's casual, it's by no means in the same way as the Wii games.

    So, how do I differentiate those Wii games you talk about? Reverse-controlling, perhaps. It's all bassackward, you don't imput controls to make the game move as you'd expect, it's the game that has you behave in some way physically. It's out-of-the-box gaming: Singstar, EyeToy, Buzz, Wii-whatever...

    Their controll schemes work because they are pre-determined and haven't got to deal with the player's volition. They're simple, staightforward, rewarding games, like "normal" game can be (animal crossing), only they have you play with some peripheral and have you "do this" "do that".

  • Segnit #65 2 years ago

    @man.the.king

    Super Mario Galaxy makes heavy use of motion controls. Some things could've been pulled of well with buttons (spins) while other stuff (star pull) not so much.

  • SpaceMonkey77 #66 2 years ago

    Lol. Am I upsetting you Otogi. Please don't cry in my wake, you'll short circuit your keyboard.

    (For my latest crticism of MS, was on the post about Xbox Live's Game Room. MS are only going to concentrate on 8-bit games, which is a little disappointing. Why do I say this? Because MS aren't going to move Game Room into the 80 and 90's arcade games, strangely because this would require them to rate games like Street Fighter etc. Just rate them, I say, so long as we get them to play.

    I think that if they are going to go 8-bit with Game Room, and outside of that put old arcade games like Altered Beast or Virtual On on Live, Game Room should also offer lots of 16 bit or greater games too, inbetween. The whole thing kind of contradicts itself a bit, but I hope MS see sense. I won't indulge in Game Room til I see games I grew up with in arcades (Dragon Ninja, UN Squadron, Power Drift etc).

    Dear Otogi, its not a crime to criticise the mighty Nintendo, like many seem to think, or anyone else. Sure, while a part of me can go off like rocket, like on the Nintendo games announcement post, but I do so from the heart, because I've seen Nintendo do this kind of thing before, and it reeks of damage limitation for Wii very light annual release game list. Other than those random times, I try to keep it together, putting forward what I see, but others might not. I still agree with Diomedes and Pmayes though. I find it a bit crazy, that many Wii owners question Wii games line up, and when given an answer to why its pretty sparse and average, even from a developer/publisher position (with Ubisoft also expressing concern), and they plug their ears and grab their pitchforks, for what is said about Wii is blasphemy, and you need to burn for it. Mmm...toasty.

    Developers feel free to speak on problems with PS3 and 360 more openly, because both Sony and MS are more open to such criticism, take it on board and try to resolve such problems or comment. Its been this way ever since they both entered the market, doesn't always work, but is more welcoming. PS3 programming problems are widely known and talked about, and its down to Sony to address or reply to such issues, if they can. Many have given up on the same from Nintendo.

    I remember the days well where EA were disliked a lot for their games. The difference there is that EA listened and adjusted accordingly. Nintendo never listen or learn well, and as a result have next to no third party game back for a third successive generation. They only make the bed they sleep in, as Wii is their baby.

    Kudos to those that manage to earn a crust on Wii besides Nintendo, and to those who enjoy its rare fruits. I'm overall stuck on my view of it and the wider issues surrounding it. When Nintendo do something really positive and/or progressive, they'll get my praise. The recent dumb cancelling on Wii Ware demos doesn't give me hope of doing so soon, though.

  • hiddenranbir #67 2 years ago

    Why doesn't this article have references to back up its claims?

  • notyalcsdrawkcab #68 2 years ago

    Am I the only person here who has not caught up on all the Wii games they want to play? I am pretty happy with the choice (1st party and third) out there at the moment. And I know cool stuff is coming by mid-year for the little SD console under my TV. Woo hoo?

  • Z101 #69 2 years ago

    Even the "loudest" Wii hater get quieter these days.

    In the Wii Line-Up since 2006 there are many great games, that you don't get on other gaming systems. And a every gamer who buys a Wii today has great games for month, despite the fact that in the "Wii year" 2010 every month one or two new great games are released for the Wii (Red Steel 2, Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, Tatsunoko vs. Capcom, No More Heroes 2, Monster Hunter 3, Sin&Punishment, Mario Galaxy 2, Metroid Other M etc.).
    Edited by 1 at 07/03/10 @ 16:58