Ten Level Test: EverQuest II vs Vanguard Comments by Oli Welsh

Editor's Blog link is broken. Looks like someone included more of the path than necessary.

That was quite an interesting read. Even for a non-mmo player like me.

AoC is going to do well in this 'test'.

Toothball - thanks, fixed. (It was less, in fact.)

Ah, I'd assumed the link was to be relative instead of absolute. Should probably read the article now.

A very interesting read. I've tried both myself, and was in the beta of Vangaurd but it was such a mess at release I was put off for good. Certainly I was kinda surprised by your conclusion that you'd have had more enjoyment from Vangaurd.

I tried EQ2 at launch and just found it a pain to play. The character models were ugly, there was way too much running around/fetch questing, combat was impossible (due to stupid design decisions like making all mobs spawn in groups) and the whole thing just felt too much of a chore to play.

And everything was brown or green.

I'll be interested to see how Guild Wars does, as - to be honest - the first five levels are actually pretty average and don't show off much in the way of the game's strengths...

Final Fantasy XI is going to get mauled I suspect. Up to level 10 you can solo on pretty much any job which is nice, but so totally not what the game is all about. The game really only begins after you join your first proper xp party (Valkurm, usually) and do your subjob and chocobo quests.

Realistically even stopping at level 20 isn't enough as by then you won't have access to even half the job classes, which is absolutely critical as the main/sub job-combo you choose drastically effects the whole experience. Especially as advanced jobs like Ninja completely change the gameplay when combined with other melee classes.

Why no Age of Conan? Surely one of the better experiences around for level 0-10, although I suppose in all fairness you'd have to do 20-30...

Oh man, my favourite is out in the first round :(
I love EQ2.

Good article- more of this please.

Surprised to see VG survive after my early experiences with the game. I'll be interested to see how some of the forthcoming attractions fare, especially WAR and DDO.

I like this new feature. It's always the start of the MMORPG that either stops me, or forces me to grit my teeth and bare it (depending on if I paid for the game already). Once you hit 20-30 on most games it becomes good fun (enough skills to make combat interesting, groups in missions etc.) but this can take 5-8 hours of boring grinding, which no other genre could possibly get away with other than MMORPGs.

I second disc's comment. Interesting read.

L2 is going to get mauled here too, the first 10 levels are rather plain and uninteresting to most people. The entire game is centered mostly around the latter levels and that's where all the diversity and entertainment begins.

Would be nice if you could do a high level test as well, since the endgame in all of these games is really the most important thing.

Doing a high level test would be easier said than done however, since some of these games require months of time invested in order to participate in the end game content. Unless you had staff or community members capable of donating characters since having high level players write their own opinions would end up in some very biased opinions (most high level people in MMO's always sing the praises of the MMO for various reasons).

Would be nice if you could do a high level test as well, since the endgame in all of these games is really the most important thing.

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Very true but I'd guess the point of the Ten Level Test is to see how much the game draws you in from the off.

As I say, I played EQ2 and hated every second of it. Some people love it and maybe if I'd been able to get beyond that initial shittiness, I may have been one of them. However, I couldn't and am not.

I enjoyed EQ2 until the low 20's when it was first released then quit. I recently downloaded the freebie for Vanguard and didnt last an hour.

This is a pretty silly idea unless you only plan on playing these games for 10 levels, which really isn't the point of an MMO. How they start is nothing like how they finish.

Good read that.

Cheers!

How they start is nothing like how they finish.

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No but if a game is shit at the start, no amount of carrot-dangling about "oh but the endgame IS GREAT" is going to keep you playing because (A) why bother trudging through it all in the faint hopes it gets better and (B) if the endgame IS that great, then how is it the dev can't make the game engaging at the start?

I'd say ten levels of play is a pretty reasonable amount of time to form an early impression of a game. The point is it's not to review the whole thing but rather to give people who might be interested in trying something different some idea as to how the game plays for NEW players.

Nice article, AoC will do well I guess

Considering MMOs experience the highest churn in the first few minutes this is a really interesting read, ta EG!

A great read! I must say I'm already looking forward to the next round, but found no info on when it will be published - does anyone know?

A great read! I must say I'm already looking forward to the next round, but found no info on when it will be published - does anyone know?

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"When it's ready."

:)

I also expect the Western made MMO's (or at least those targetted at a Western market) to be the clear cut winners in a test like this. Since most of them are tailored to a more casual market the new player experience is often thought out in a better way to their Asian rivals.

Great article, and surprising conclusion. More!

"AoC is going to do well in this 'test'. "

Heh. ;o)

"When it's ready."

Pretty much!

I'd love to promise a date, but as you can imagine these articles take some organising, and a very unpredictable amount of playtime. I'll also be doing them all myself to keep it consistent.

I'll try my very best to keep the pace up - no more than a month in between each round, and hopefully more like a fortnight.

Interesting article. As a past player of both EQ2 and Vanguard, I find it hard to disagree with anything Oli has written here- EQ2 has all the shine and polish, but none of the imagination or soul it needs to really grab you, whilst Vanguard is one of the most pure and deep MMO's I've ever experienced- but its not so good at pulling you into its world.

I liked this article - I think it pretty much represents how I've approached various MMOs in the past. Certainly with AoC, the first 10 levels were great and then it got pants.
Looking forward to seeing how FFXI gets on - I played that for ages, and with the massive emphasis on grouping in later levels it will be interesting to see how it turns out.

Aspic - I disagree with everything you wrote.

Really liked the article, but playing up to 10 levels seems kind of arbitrary. Wouldn't it be much fairer to play for a roughly fixed length of time per game? Still, looking forward to the next one.

This article is easily one of the best MMO related pieces I've seen in a long time. Excellent read, explanation, and understanding of how you got to the place you did at the end. Can't wait to read the next pieces.

Dlangar
http://ofcourseillplayit.com

w00+ Vanguard!!! The game is so fun and enjoyable, even with its bugs. They have also added a lot of free new content that could have easily been a full expansion. SOE are doing a lot to make this game even better every year. It really is worth another look by anyone who is/was interested the game.

What Lok said.

I've tried a lot of MMOs and always find when I ask myself "Is this like work?" it's time to do something else. Screw grinding to the endgame, show me an interesting solo/party-based RPG with good atmosphere and interesting combat.

Unfortunately the whole mobs-popping-out-of-thin-air thing is still regarded as acceptable...

That was great...and it's nice to see what they've managed to do with Vanguard. Can't wait to read more MMO Battles.

I hated EQ2 when it was first released. You had to play those awful class archetypes to level 20 before you could select the real class you wanted to play. Then a month later WoW came out, so lots of people (including me) moved on.

Vanguard had some really nice ideas like the disciple healer class (before they nerfed it into oblivion) and the song "crafting" system the bard class used. But it was such a buggy mess on release I gave up on it.

I did play Vanguard again when they did their "please come back and play" month last summer, but the newbie areas were completely deserted so playing wasn't too fun.

I reviewed Vanguard when it came out for a popular Internet site and have to say I thought it was shocking at the time. There were plenty of great ideas, but a complete lack of cohesion. That's why I'm glad you've taken another look at it - it's persuaded me that sometimes MMOs have to be given a bit of time. The problem is, give most MMOs a bit of time and they'll hang themselves with it. It's a surprise that Vanguard has pulled it out of the bag somewhat, given how badly broken and unenjoyable it was, but all praise to the team for investing the time and money to fix it. I'm almost tempted to reinstall.

Who else thinks the couple dueling in the article's picture are like, you know, gonna do it when they're finished fighting...

Nothing like waving a large bit of razor-sharp metal in your face to get you in the mood...

Unfortunately both EQii and Vanguard are from SoE and both employ awful game engines which make the either look rubbish, or play rubbish depending on the level of graphics you choose.
Nonetheless each have a dedicated userbase which can be helpful.

Indeed the article's premise of a level 1-10 report does neither (or the industry) any good, and won't do future reports any good, far better to look at level 11-20 in which case EQii would come out top by a mile. Gaining levels to 10 is usually a breeze in MMOs.

Here are some MMOs where getting to 10 is achieved in a couple of hours, and as result are not indicative of the MMO at later stages, even levels 11-20 which is usually when your chosen class starts to come into their own.

World of Warcraft - Done and dusted in less than 2 hours, but masses of content to keep you on the move. 9/10
Lord of the Rings Online - Verging on 2 hours or more, also packed with interesting varied content. 9/10
D&D - To level 2.1 equivalent, new 'noob' area makes it so easy you struggle to differentiate classes, they're all nukers. 6/10
WAR - To tier 2 equivalent, tons of contents, some with a sense of humour, a tad more than the 2 hours 9/10
Age of Conan - Halfway through the noob levels and there's so much to see and do yer eye's will bleed. 10/10
Chronicles of Spellborn - Aw, us UK mobs are not allowed to play this - 0/10
FFXI - Getting to level 10 will take a good few hours mainly because you'll not have a clue what to do 4/10
EVE - 2/10. I spose upgrading your ship 2 times would be close to level 10
EQii - Despite different staring area for good and evil and both there's nothing other than the grind on offer 6/10
Vanguard - I'm not commenting on this as I haven't the courage to re-install this rubbish just to see the new starter area, but back when I did play it I recall it was awful, take Oli's advice on this one if you will.

I think you're missing the point, Jinxter: the article is intended to give an insight - at least as I read it- into other MMOs you might not have considered and prime you as to what to expect.

Look at EVE Online: everybody raves about how great it is, how there are these life-changing events and massive political incidents that change the entire game world. I played it and found myself staring at lots of very dull screens before being given a badly plotted, poorly implemented fetch quest. That doesn't mean the former stuff doesn't exist. All it means is that in your earliest days it won't impact you.

And fact is as most MMOs offer limited free trials, most people need to be hooked in that first week/month/fortnight to continue wanting to play. As I mentioned before, I played EQ2 for about a week and didn't even bother beyond that, as I just found it a frustrating experience. The point of the Ten Level Test is to, in effect, present a report on the "trial period" as a way to help readers an insight into other titles and maybe provoke a "yeah, I might try that" response.

Good article.

Even though I haven't played an MMO for ages - i do enjoy reading about people's experiences in them.

Would be nice if you could do a high level test as well, since the endgame in all of these games is really the most important thing.

Endgame is factiongrind and raiding. Boring.

It would be interesting to know which area was used for the ten levels in EverQuest II, as there's a huge difference between say Freeport and Gorowyn. Either way, I'd have to agree with the findings in the article. EverQuest II and Vanguard are my two favourite games, one having all the polish and the other all the content.

It would be interesting to know which area was used for the ten levels in EverQuest II

Sounds like Neriak to me Daysy.

Had played the vanguard beta, and tried to play it after launch. Was therefore surprised at this review and gave it a go.

Really feals like a different game now. A lot of the petty anoyances seam to have been sorted. Subscrived now for a 3 month sub!

Thanks anyway Eurogamer. While I loved the first play through lich king (death knight) I have to say that the second run on my warrior lacks the replayability of the areas that classic wow had. This gives me a nice alternative.

Good choice. I tried both and came to the same conclusion. Only thing I will say is Vanguard could use being a bit more friendly and I didn't go much on it's 'famed' diplomacy system.

I enjoyed reading this even though I'm MMO dry these days. Every day I get up and say today is the day I won't subscribe to an MMO (I play GW but that doesn't count right even though it's in a fortcoming test?). This article shook that faith but I resisted. Maybe one of the other articles will do it? Get playing and writing Oli I don't want to wait any longer than four days for the next one!

Oh you say at least a fortnight before the next one? Well that's simply not good enough! If you made it more boring then we wouldn't be in this quandry would we? :)

EQii and Vanguard are very similar in look 'n' feel. Infact it's hard to tell the rascals apart.

Putting Guild Wars in there with D&D is nonsense. They are wildy different games.
The nearest there is to D&D is/was Tabula Rasa or even Phantasy Star Universe.

....and I'll not be listening to anyone who replies that both have 'mercenary' NPCs you can hire. This is a high-level only feature in D&D

Vanguard could use being a bit more friendly and I didn't go much on it's 'famed' diplomacy system

Strange how perceptions differ. I find Vanguard very friendly, although admittedly people don't usually talk unless they have something to say. Diplomacy is one of my favourite parts of the game and it's certainly in a whole different class to that byzantine card game in EQ2.

Cool article, can't wait for the next battle! Allthough, to be fair, this might actually end up with a problem... The first ten levels should indeed give the player a heads up on what to expect from the game, but very few live up to it. AoC is the prime example of this. First levels where a blast and then it just crashes. I see a few titles in the list that might very well end up the same and that will just make you come to the conclusion: 'Looks can be decieving'. I have a feeling the test will just become a series of compromises and end up with a decent but not a great experience. Those who live shal see.

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