Street Fighter IV Comments by Matt Edwards

@BillyBrush
Put it this way, a pad vs a Hori arcade stick is not a level playing field can we agree? how many people playing SFIV will use a Hori fighting stick? quite a few i should imagine.

Hardcore SF players don't use Hori arcade sticks, they build their own from genuine Japanese arcade parts. I read a thread somewhere where people were saying how useless the Hori stick was by comparison, and it is that discussion which best illustrated to me the yawning chasm between the SF hardcore and regular gamers (even those like me who are huge fighting game fans).

Again, I fail to see your point. "One of those games which becomes too hardcore"?? What does that even mean? Surely this is a problem with EVERY online game? Could you reasonably expect to play a game of Halo and not run into some hardcore players? Or COD4? Or Bomberman? :)

The game rewards practice and diligence, which is as it should be.

I'm going to wade in and defend Matt - This specific series of games has been around for almost 2 decades. That's almost Twenty Years of lexicon - older than many people posting here. Just wanted to throw that in the mix. Scrubs :D


(Also, technically Akuma had access to 3 different supers at any time in SF3, although of course, only one of them was the Raging Demon - if you unlocked the dipswitch on the DC or Xbox version, he technically had access to 5 supers at any one time!).

I was at the arcades 2 weeks ago on a SF3 versus machine - the guy I played against didn't know how to parry and it took out all the fun. So when he put more money in after I showed him how to play ;) I let him win and left. This system works easier online - at least it did when I used to play SF3 on Live.

If you don't like your opponent online, finish up the match and quit - then find someone else - that's the fun part of Versus play.

Onny: I think the best thing is that people think that IV will be too hardcore but seem to think that SSFIIT or IICE are in some way not! :D

Matt: You should totally play Tatsunoko vs Capcom, great fun.

Despite my previous comments, I am actually happy that Eurogamer has someone like Matt Edwards who really understands fighting games to review them, even if I found that a lot of this hands-on went right over my head.

I don't think having depth in a fighting game is a bad thing at all, in fact I think oversimplifying them makes them too random and misses the point of the genre, as long as you don't need to know how to dash cancel a super into an ultra EX desperation move to be any good at the game. I have no doubt that SF4 will be very playable at a far lower level than is being described in this article.

In fact, I think for me SF4's biggest problem won't be how hardcore it is, but that the cast of characters still doesn't appeal to me (although it does seem better than SF3's, couldn't really be worse, could it?). Tekken 6 is a long, long way away, though, so I will definitely be picking it up.

Thing is, jargon like kara cancels and a lot of the other stuff here that most people wont get are quite high level and you wont see them in most of the matches you'd play. If you come up against someone who knows them and you don't then chances are you'd get spanked even if they didn't use them. They tend to give a slight edge over equally ranked players of high skill levels.

The ranking systems should hopefully match you against players of your level anyway (even if the ones in sf2hd are broken at the moment) so that wont be so much of an issue.

i don't care for sticks. my days of spending ludicrous cash on one game are long gone. i just want to play the game and witness the revival of one of the greatest and longest running series in gaming history. i know i'm not alone in this so all you hori stick nerds can take your self righteous attitudes and stick it. good luck to all you 360 owners with your "superior' pads.

I wonder how many of these commentators realise that cancels are in the old games too?

Yeah especially the guy who talked about the "simple" Alpha 2.

Haha, the internets are full of them.

Why are people comparing the FPSs with this?
With FPSs, there's the opportunity for team play, meaning you can instantly have a great social experience, even if you loose. Also, its entire framework, allows for moment of thrills, even if you loose. So you can loose a team game in gears2, yet reminisce of how you took out that guy with a blind-fire sniper headshot. In fighting games, even you if you pull out great moments of combos, if you loose it was pointless.

And yes, FPSs were in the realms of the hardcore (ironically enough, the fighters belonged to the mainstream), but console gaming brought in an even controlpad for everyone, meaning less dependancy on technology or specialised abilities, and more on the gross skills of reaction, awareness and concentration.

Those seeing this as somekind of attack on fighting games need to chill, because it isn't. However, you too need to understand that there are many outthere who loved and grew up with SF2 and still want ot connect with the franchise, but can't anymore.

"you too need to understand that there are many outthere who loved and grew up with SF2 and still want ot connect with the franchise, but can't anymore."

Sorry, why can't they? Most of the terms talked about in the article are from SF2, so I'm not really getting where these people are coming from.

Also, none of this is an attack on matt. Its good to have someone who's passionate about what they are reviewing, and for readers to be able to relate to such a person.

I hate it when people who don't like football, review football games. Sure they are capable to playing (possibly to a high degree), and can decipher any small increment changes, but any fan wants another fan to review the game, as they can relate to them.

I'm hoping Matt does the review, he knows his stuff.

>"Sorry, why can't they? Most of the terms talked about in the article are from SF2, so I'm not really getting where these people are coming from. "

My bad. I wasn't aware akuma was playable in SF2, with between 2-5 demon attacks (apologies, still getting to grips with the linguo), are that there were super attacks or super cancels that took out half of the guage thingy.

In all honesty, how the heck can you lay claim that all these terminologies were in SF2? Don't try it, you know most of them did not develop until post-SFIIT. Heck, there weren't even freakin combos in SF2, which was what made it popular when people started realizing they could chain moves together.

The BB: If people just want to "have fun" with SFIV and play their like-minded friends, they will still be able to go about their business just playine the game "simply" and not understanding what is happening is they play someone online who knows and is proficient with higher level techniques (although, as Crispy said, in this case the other player very possibly wouldn't need to use them to win the match).

However, this is no different to SFII, Aplha, III, *or in fact most other popular fighting games*.

It case it really doesn't come across well in the preview, *you will not need to be a tournament-level player to enjoy the game*. However, you will get more enjoyment out of it if you understand these extra depths, even if you aren't at that level of play yourself.

Canceling was in Street Fighter 2.

Combos were in Street Fighter 2.

Supers were in Super Street Fighter Turbo.

Demon Attack is the name of Akuma's super, as in, it's his Super move.

I mean, seriously, who here never pulled of a triple-hit dragon punch in World Warrior? It's one of the earliest things I learnt when playing this in my local video shop. That's canceling right there.

even the kids from the 90's could do it.

triple hitting on the SNES

This stuff was probably in the manual for gods sake.

crispy, that vids shit. 4 hit combo was what it was about with ken. flying punch, standing punch and finsh with two hits off ken's dragon. awesome!

:)

>"Combos were in Street Fighter 2."
As far as I'm aware "combos" were not in SF2. Its only when people started put moves together, making them into sets of COMBINATIONS did they come into existence. But they only officially became part of the gameplay mechanic after SF2.
Same too for cancel as far as I'm aware. There was no "cancel" feature (and your claim that it was probably in the manual is absurd. Please don't be smug just because you're some sort of skilled SF master or something), all you could do was "stop" an animation by performing another move. That was initially not a design, was a glitch (a glitch that then on became a mechanic).
All you've done is given labels and names to things that were never the intention of the first SF2 in the first place. Ironically, it was these things that made SF2 fun, as because they were never intended, it made the game like a "pandoras box", whereby being creative enough and manipulating the limitations allowed people to do things that were never intended, combos and cancels. It was part of the magic of the game, as people found out different combos. Breaking the game became just as fun as the fighting itself. A creative person would have a chance at someone who practised, so long as they were creative enough to think of "combos (glitches) in their head as the game went along.
However, you could still stand toe-to-toe with those who had broken into new combos so long as you were competent in fighting the way the creators initially intended for it to be played.

But later iterations made these "glitches" if you will the sole purpose of the game. It wasn't about being creative anymore but about persistance. All the magic of figuring out combos by ourself was now replaced by endless lists of combos, each more intricate, complex and more effective than the last. Meaning to get the best out of the game, you had to read and study the manual (or the moves list on the screen). Creativity be gone (not that I'm claiming the creativity was completely gone, but now you had to wade through a list of combo-lists to get there).

I think a better example would be either football games of boxing games (fight night 3). I don't know the ins & outs of the controls of pro evo or even FIFA09, but I can still hold my own against a better veteran, simply because I know how to read the game as in real life & how to pass & move. Same goes for fight night, I may not know all the ins & outs (mainly because there isn't a huge fighting move list), but I know how to read a fight.

Infact, I think fight night is the best example. The last iteration has probably sold more than any other fighting game. Is it because its a boxing game? No, seeing as the others never sold THAT great, and boxing popularity is at its lowest in 20 years, but because its gameplay was perfectly balanced, accessible. But a good fighter in real life would probably beat them in the game, just by reading the fight.

I'm not sure I've expressed my point sufficiently, as I'm tired & sleepy.

Don't be a nonce, comobs and cancels where always there. You really think combos weren't intended? Are you mad? Then why are they in Street Fighter 1.

It's part of Street Fighter 2s design, do you really need "3-hit combo" flashing up on the screen to tell you that? Super has this, and funnily enough pretty much all the combos are the same as previous games. You really think a well balanced fighter like this happened on a great combo system by chance? You sir, are insane.

How does this effect SF4 anyway? It has the same basic principles and adds a revenge meter, hardly taking it away from the old players is it? What you seem to be whing about is the fact that everyone knows the combos now, although I'm not eniterly sure to be honest!?

@ The Bodybuilder & CrispyXUK

Don't have time to go into this in any depth but this Wiki quote should clear up what you're discussing quite well:

"The combo notion was introduced with the fighting game Street Fighter II from Capcom, when skilled players learned that they could combine several attacks that left no time for the computer player to recover, if they timed them correctly.

Combos were a design accident; lead producer Noritaka Funamizu noticed that extra strikes were possible during a bug check on the car-smashing bonus stage. He thought that the timing required was too difficult to make it a useful game feature, but left it in as a hidden one.

Combos have been since a design priority in almost all fighting games, hardening significantly the learning curve of fighting games. The first game to count the hits of each combo, and reward the player for performing them, was Super Street Fighter II."

TheBB: solid proof that you're wrong in your "you just have to persist and 'learn' everything that's put into the game" opinion is provided by every decent fighting game, ever. The highest level techniques and stategies always evolve over time, as players become more adept at "breaking" the system as you like to put it.

All top level play in SSFIIT, MvC2, 3S, Guilty Gear, *anything* that has survived for any length of time has been adapted and moulded, bettered and bettered again to find which moves combo into others, and to find the real nuances in the game - the canned combos or special moves that are in the manual are rarely the be-all and end-all unless the game is a bit shit. Moreover, the truly important aspects of high level play are the fundamentals, such as controlling space and knowing character match-ups inside out.

What you seem to be moaning about is that people are more aware of these things these days, whereas no-one knew that this level of in-depth analysis would even be possible at the time of SFII's release.

(As an aside, your point about "endless combos in move lists" seems to be more appropriate for Tekken or some other 3D fighters, which give you such move lists. It's no more valid as a negative criticism, of course).

@ Matt

Thanks for the wiki quote, that's exactly what I mean. Maybe crispy needs to read wiki before calling someone a "nonce". Combos were never designed (so claiming they were in the manual ws ridiculous), but a glitch.

"What you seem to be moaning about is that people are more aware of these things these days, whereas no-one knew that this level of in-depth analysis would even be possible at the time of SFII's release. "-ilmaestro.

Its weird to claim I'm wrong about my opinion (considering there is no definitive, objective answer to this), atleast say you disagree with me.
But that quote is partially true. People are now more aware of it because these things have been heavily emphasised on all further games. Fight Night 3 (as in boxing in real life) gives you a basic but balanced mechanic, but allows the player to be creative with thinking up of their own combos.

I guess may issue is not that there are hardcore players (as there will always be a fanatical following for anything popular), but that the creativity is (mostly) gone. Now all the moves are there for you to learn and master, rather than to create, learn and master.

@ilmaestro

“Although I hope he appreciates the thin ice you're skating on whenever you use the word "cheap". ;)”

Yeah, I don’t think I’m going to be winning any tournaments somehow. Although I held my ground okay when going up against some of the NeoEmpire guys early last year - playing an SFIV build before the Japanese arcade release.

“Matt: You should totally play Tatsunoko vs Capcom, great fun.”

Yeah I’ve been itching to play it. I read somewhere that if you have a Wii with older firmware then you can play TvC with a Freeloader on a Pal system. Don’t have the funds to buy a Japanese one :s

@convercide

“With the super specials are they set like SSF2, choosable like SF III or do you have access to more than one super special like the Alpha series? For example, does Ken have access to his Shôryű-reppa and Shinryűken right off the bat or can he only take one into the fight?”

They’re set like SSF2T. Each character has access to one Super and one Ultra. Ken’s Super is the Shoryureppa and his Ultra is the Shinryuken.

@Onny & BillyBrush

“can you still kara-cancel overhead into raging demon?”

I don’t have access to the beta at the mo to check, but I’m pretty sure you can. A friend of mine also suggested that in the Raging Demon input; LP, LP, Forward, LK, SP – you can now just press the last 3 inputs at the same time rather than sequentially (which I think wasn't possible before). If this is true then Kara Cancelling the Forward + MP overhead might be simpler than ever :)

@STKD, The Bodybuilder, etc

“It's because it was so often talked about as `back to basics` SF that coming into an article that shows it to be loaded with the same things that have driven the masses away was a bit of a disappointment to many of us.”

This really isn’t the impression of SFIV that I wanted to convey. Yes, there is a lot of tech in SFIV that is intended for top level play – with Focus Cancelling perhaps being the most fresh and interesting. But Capcom and Dimps have clearly tried to craft something that will appeal to the hardcore, but at the same time be accessible to those who haven’t played a SF for years and just want to have a bit of fun.

You can play SFIV with a basic knowledge of SFII – you can’t block in the air, you only have access to a single Super Move and you can pick from all the original World Warriors with their classic move-sets. Initial play is very intuitive to anyone who’s ever pulled off a Dragon Punch. And if you want to gradually step up your game you can start to think about zoning, pokes and EX Specials – but none of this is necessary.

Don’t expect to beat someone who has invested more time in a fighter than you, usually that isn’t likely to happen. But if you’re idea of fun isn’t sitting down for two hours trying to get the timing right on a particularly tricky combo sequence, then no worries. Just play a like minded individual and have some fun. Street Fighter is still about having fun... right...?!? :p

Looking forward to Matt's review of the game when it's launched. Seems like he is actually qualified to review it properly and point out it's virtues from the perspective of the casual gamer, who will get a lot of fun out of this game AND the more experienced players that will want to explore the subtleties and high end strategies which the game has to offer.

I play SF HD to a decent level, and there is ALWAYS someone out there who will eventually kick my ass. But that just makes me want to take the experience and learn from it. A lot of the way people play street fighter is pure psychology, and often bouts between two equally matched players of high skill levels are won before a punch has even been thrown. THATS what makes SF a GREAT game for me, it's huge depth and rewards for those who wish to really get into it. And even then, it's still massive fun for the guy that just knows a few special moves.

Can't wait for the full game! (I think their box set offering is a bit crap though...)

I will definitely be buying this, i have bought streetfighter II, must be about 10 times in various forms, and i'm still crap at it....i have the hori stick and have only won a couple of HD remix ranked games...even with my Ryu fireball tennis antics.

I hope this is a big seller, and has a massive online audience, so i'm somewhere mid-field, otherwise online, getting whooped every game will get boring, i don't have the time (like i did 20years ago) to practice and be able to beat the streetfighter elite or at least not embarrass myself.

I think people confuse saying something may have a frustrating online environment with saying it's not good...i think this will probably be exceptional for a 2d fighter but don't beleive 1 on 1 fighting games are that great as online games. VF5 i think is a good example, it's a sublime game but go online and there are plenty of people who are hardcore fans, have hori sticks, and make the online a bit too compettetive for it's own good in my opinion. I'd like to see such a game use things like trueskill so if you're just on for a play about you don't have to play a bunch of wannabe Daigos, but play someone else who just plays once in a while, it makes Halo great online imo....maybe SFIV has this, who knows....maybe you can't discuss such things amongst those versed in streetfighterese without offending.

@Billybrush

yeah i'd much rather play this online if there was some sort of match making, so i could play with someone of equal ability

TheBB: And that's what I'm saying isn't true. People spend large amounts of time when a new fighter comes out trying to create and find new combos that are possible within the game's systems, but not explicit in move lists etc. This is fact proven by experimentation, not opinion. What I won't disagree with you on is that the old games still hold their charm; this is why they are still played today, but, by the same token, 3s is still being played and is ten years old this year. And I'll bet that SFIV is still being played a few years from now, too.

I see your correction, and accept it.

That's fair enough, the main thing I wanted to emphasize was don't give up on SFIV before it's even here. :) I'm sure it will be excellent, and the more people from EG to play against, the better.

I'll drink to that!

:D

Chung Li has legs big!

I love street Fighter IV, I think Capcom got it excatly right, from the basic defense to the simplicity of the focus attack you can get stuck straight in, and it feels like the closest SF release to the original SF2 yet. The super combo's and focus cancels give the game a more skillful side for anyone that wants to go down that route and they're complex enough to satisfy serious gamers but not essential to the game - everyone's a winner. This is the number 1 dispute settler and 10 minute break of choice in the office at the moment and i think it will be for quite a while.