"Steve Jobs doesn't care about games"

By Tom Bramwell Published 4 August, 2008

Carmack on why Apple doesn't get it.

Id Software technical director John Carmack has told Eurogamer that the reason Apple doesn't "deeply get" gaming, as he put it during his QuakeCon keynote, is down to Apple's CEO.

"The truth is Steve Jobs doesn't care about games. This is going to be one of those things that I say something in an interview and it gets fed back to him and I'm on his s***head list for a while on that, until he needs me to do something else there. But I think that that's my general opinion. He's not a gamer," Carmack explained in an interview published today.

"It's difficult to ask somebody to get behind something they don't really believe in. I mean obviously he believes in the music and the iTunes and that whole side of things, and the media side of things, and he gets it and he pushes it and they do wonderful things with that, but he's not a gamer. That's just the bottom line about it."

With Mac owners now able to use Boot Camp to install Windows XP alongside OS X on Intel-based machines, Carmack also questioned the value of including native OS X support in cross-platform development plans - albeit something that is happening on id's upcoming action title Rage.

As he said during Thursday's QuakeCon keynote, however, he has high hopes for the iPhone.

"I think the iPhone is a potentially extremely important platform for a lot of reasons, and I think it could be the type of thing that really makes inroads into...does it kill the PSP. There are structural reasons why it's not going to kill the DS in there, but it certainly should be in there in the running there as a device that you can get modern, quality games for something, and I think it's a great platform for content and new talent on there," he explained.

He even suggested that two-man development teams could make "a couple of million dollars probably by having some breakout success".

For Carmack's part, id has a couple of iPhone projects in the early stages, but the company isn't showing anything much yet - except to say that neither is likely to be a port of a recognised shooter like Doom 3.

"There's obviously a few FPSes out there - Quake ports and stuff like that - and they're trying out different things and none of them are good yet," Carmack pointed out. "What you have to do when you're looking at a new platform is not take your favourite thing and try and cram it onto the platform, but you need to look at the platform and see what you can do, which is what we did on our conventional mobile devices."

For more on Apple, iPhone and id Software - and of course Rage, Doom 4, Quake Live, the console war and digital distribution, among other things - be sure to check out the full John Carmack interview elsewhere on Eurogamer.

Picture of Tom.

About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

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Comments (35) Latest comment 4 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Razorus #1 4 years ago

    I swear there are about 5 articles which read "Carmack says this or that". Since when did he become King of quotes? I'm gonna ignore him because I just read on Darkhorizons.com that he wants another go at a Doom movie. Allow that shit.

  • RedPanda #2 4 years ago

    Post deleted at 14:31:59 28-01-2012

  • actionfitz #3 4 years ago

    i loved the doom movie...
    thought it was hilarious, perfect 'chewing gum for the brain' friday night post-Pub movie :p
    - that's a real genre right?
    heh.

  • FooAtari #4 4 years ago

    Bit irrelevant?

    Sure id's past few games have not been the best. But he is still a hugly talented programmer and extremely intelligent person.

    Anyway many successful games are pretty dull and generic. Who was behind Turok? Does anyone know off the top of their heads? No? Thats because thats largely an irrelevant game with no one of any amazing talent behind, yet it still sold well.

  • moggsy #5 4 years ago

    does it kill the PSP

    Does the PSP require a £35 a month contract?
    Edited by 2 at 04/08/08 @ 14:52

  • themorganator #6 4 years ago

    Can you call your mates on a psp?

    What a pointless statement.

  • Artemus #7 4 years ago

    "I swear there are about 5 articles which read "Carmack says this or that". Since when did he become King of quotes?"

    This seems to be a bit of a trend at EG at the moment. Take one interview and spin as many stories as possible from it.

  • redneon Verified Programmer, SUMO Digital #8 4 years ago

    "No but it requires a good library of games before anyone will buy one. "

    This is such an irrelevant argument now. The PSP has a hell of a lot of superb games now. And this is coming from someone who prefers the DS.
    Edited by 1 at 04/08/08 @ 15:12

  • Turambar #9 4 years ago

    "Steve Jobs doesn't care about games"

    Evidenced by the abysmal graphics card options you get when buying a mac.

  • moggsy #10 4 years ago

    No, and neither does the iPod Touch.

    Where is that mentioned in the article? He says the iPhone could kill the PSP.

  • peasoup #11 4 years ago

    Can you call your mates on a psp?

    Doesn't it have skype? ;)

  • moggsy #12 4 years ago

    @ northy

    So does the iPhone have a better library of game than the PSP? Will it in 2 years time? Will it in 4 years time. I'll answer for you - no it won't. It doesn't even have a decent control method.

  • Svecke #13 4 years ago

    We -do- need another Doom movie. A proper one.

  • moggsy #14 4 years ago

    Can you call your mates on a psp?

    Yep.

  • moggsy #15 4 years ago

    @ AlMcD

    So, if a mate asked you to recommend a portable games machine and they were deciding between the the £199 8GB iPod Touch or the £129.99 PSP which one would you tell them to buy?

  • Weezer #16 4 years ago

    I'll admit I was all over the iPod Touch/iPhone as a gaming device. And then I tried playing Pangea's Enigmo this weekend. Great game but a frustratng bastard to control - especially if you have podgy fingers. Maybe I'll use a DS stylus with bit of old flesh wrapped round the end instead...

  • anomagnus #17 4 years ago

    i said the exact same thing right here:-

    [link url=http://www.eurogamer.net/artic le_discussion.php?article_id=201147&comment_start=50
    ]http://ww w.eurogamer.net/article_discuss...[/link]

    Jobs has ZERO interest in games. Jobs wants total media domination, he wants everyone, everyone watching tv his way, listenting to music his way, communcating his way. And as far as jobs is concerned, gaming is to niche.

    Hes not interested, been there, argued with sales and marketing in apple, argued with the product managers, they all fluffed the question. I knew, just from LOOKING at them, they agreed, but you dont get far in apple by disobeying the corporate line.

    we'll never see an apple games machine, and i, for one, thank god for it

  • kangarootoo #18 4 years ago

    Does it really matter than Steve Jobs isn't into games? I mean, Carmack mentioned it because he would probably quite like to work on Mac titles (he has always dabbled), but Mac users can run Windows these days if they want to play games. Nobody is really losing out.

    Steve Jobs is probably not so much anti-game as he just thinks there is no real money in it on the Mac platform. And he would be right.

  • AOFanboi #19 4 years ago

    <em>Can you call your mates on a psp?</em>

    PSP Slim + Skype + Wifi = "call your mates on a psp".

    The Pippin fiasco proved Apple do not understand games market. Their blatant ignorance of Bungie's importance which drove the latter over to Microsoft also.

  • Les #20 4 years ago

    "With Mac owners now able to use Boot Camp to install Windows XP alongside OS X on Intel-based machines, Carmack also questioned the value of including native OS X support in cross-platform development plans"

    Everything that contributes to me not having to boot up in the shit that is windows is a good thing IMO. Requiring windows for games is a crime against humanity...

  • FFS #21 4 years ago

    With Mac owners now able to use Boot Camp to install Windows XP

    But why would you want to?

  • YourMessageHere #22 4 years ago

    "Apple isn't currently - and historically - serious about games. But you never know. I laughed when they first announced the iTunes music store."

    I still do laugh about it. Buy CDs and rip them yourself with free software - support the musicians and independent coders, not Apple, their laughable excuse for a download shop and their DRM fetish.

    But really, apple making games. Imagine the sort of games that would come from the mentality behind iTunes, combined with their revoltingly patronising approach to computers. You know those tutorial levels most games have that everyone rushes through in order to get to the actual game...I envisage games that are entirely like that for their whole length, with ever so swish graphics and atrocious frame rates, AI 'buddies' that never do what you want and won't shut up or stop being amazingly irritating, and nothing whatsoever revolutionary about the game, which you could only play through once unless you bought it again. Oh, and apple would inevitably insist on calling them "iGames".

  • Dan234 #23 4 years ago

    I'd have thought it's obvious that they're two different markets.

    The DS and PSP don't need a contract (one-off payment), were designed primarily for games, has physical media, and more recently there has been the potential for applications with things like browsers or Skype coming along.

    The iPhone needs a contract (repeated payments by people who need a credit history), designed primarily for people who like bling and flash instead of games, doesn't have physical media (owner must also have Internet connection), and there is the potential for downloadable games via the iTunes store.

    The iPod's not marketed as a games machine and if Apple were suddenly to do that it'd confuse people; it doesn't have the buttons or the games library. Nobody's going to develop games with the iPod in mind, they're going to develop for the iPhone and be happy to receive a few extra sales.

    The DS/PSP and the iPhone can encroach a little bit into the other's territory but there's no machine that can do it all at the moment.

    However if marketed right the iPhone can poach people who would otherwise be interested in the DS's Touch Generations games (which don't need buttons and are used to fill up dead time while commuting) but only if Jobs says the word. However commuting on public transport's not a great feature of American life and Jobs has sometimes shown that he doesn't get things outside of the US (e.g. iChat is compatible with AIM but not MSN, he didn't get the subsidy model for the first version of the iPhone).
    Edited by 1 at 04/08/08 @ 20:08

  • UncleLou #24 4 years ago

    Steve Jobs is probably not so much anti-game as he just thinks there is no real money in it on the Mac platform. And he would be right.

    Would he really? Only reason I am sticking with Windows PCs instead of a Mac are the games. Yeah, I know the odd game comes out for both, and there's dual-booting, but that's too much effort.

    Would be interesting to see Mac sales figures of, say, Call of Duty 4 (which I think got just recently released on the Mac).


    As for the iPhone/Touch: the lack of buttons will keep it from being a proper alternative to the DS or PSP - but in one, two generations, with a more sophisticated Appstore and lots of third-party support, the idea of having a dedicated games handheld might start looking a little obsolete.

  • SeesThroughAll #25 4 years ago

    the idea of having a dedicated games handheld might start looking a little obsolete.

    Is the PSP a dedicated games handheld? Last I checked it had a music player, internet radio player, could retrieve podcasts and would run Skype...

  • Duke_Red #26 4 years ago

    Carmack knows his stuff.

  • UncleLou #27 4 years ago

    "the idea of having a dedicated games handheld might start looking a little obsolete.

    Is the PSP a dedicated games handheld? Last I checked it had a music player, internet radio player, could retrieve podcasts and would run Skype..."

    That's not really the point though. It is still bought, first and foremost, as a games machine, and seen as such, to go with your mobile and your mp3-player.

  • anomagnus #28 4 years ago

    @ yourmessage here

    I still do laugh about it. Buy CDs and rip them yourself with free software - support the musicians and independent coders

    you think your artists are supported by buying their CD's? They make just about nothing on CD's, with the record companies gobbling up most of it.

  • UncleLou #29 4 years ago

    I still do laugh about it. Buy CDs and rip them yourself with free software - support the musicians and independent coders, not Apple, their laughable excuse for a download shop and their DRM fetish.


    What are you even talking about?

    It's not Apple that has a DRM fetish, it is the music industry. Or was, mostly. More and more stuff on iTunes is DRM-free (iTunes Plus).

    It's also nonsense that musicians earn less. A much bigger share (I think more than 90%, in the European iTunes store) goes back to the label than from any brick and mortar store. And a lot of stuff that's out of print or very hard to get is on there.

  • hiddenranbir #30 4 years ago

    I thought this was Eurogamer. Not Carmack's personal blog.

    This reminds me of teenage girls, "oh mah gawwwd, did you hear what he said?"
    Edited by 1 at 05/08/08 @ 09:42

  • TheTingler #31 4 years ago

    I'd want another go at a Doom movie! The last one wasn't demons from hell, so clearly wasn't proper Doom.

    But why is id just developing for iPhone? Who owns an iPhone?

  • mingster #32 4 years ago

    AOFANBOI - hits the nail on the head... after pippin.. jobs decided to give up on gaming altogether.
    And the bungie defection to miscrosoft sealed the deal after that i wouldn't want to have anything to do with games either.
    Macs = DTP / graphics / music / media not games.

  • IronCladChicken #33 4 years ago

    @ UncleLou
    label != musician
    Just becasue the label is getting money, it doesnt mean the artist does.

  • UncleLou #34 4 years ago

    "@ UncleLou
    label != musician
    Just becasue the label is getting money, it doesnt mean the artist does."

    Um. Same as with CDs then. Which is what we're talking about, iTunes vs CDs.

    /confused what that comment's purpose was

  • YourMessageHere #35 4 years ago

    @ UncleLou/Anomagus: iTunes vs CDs

    Well, it's not as if I can somehow opt for giving all the price of a CD to the artist; however one buys music, much of the cash goes to the record company instead. Best I can do is buying CDs at gigs. I'd rather it went to the artist than the record company, but I'd rather the record company got a cut than forking out a portion to a computer company who as far as I'm concerned are making a killing out of pedalling substandard rubbish in cool packaging to the ignorant. At least they might reinvest it in something I might like, which is impossible for Apple to do. I avoid all things Apple on principle so I'll admit my information is second hand and hardly well researched - I was unaware they were doing non-DRM stuff or rarities. Bet it costs more for no DRM, though, and I bet it's still 1 transaction = 1 download. Buy a CD and you can rip it in any quality you like for free with no DRM as many times as you like, and share it with friends who might also buy a copy if they like it. If they adopted a Steam-like model (1 transaction = any number of downloads of that thing), scrapped all their DRM forever, and whole albums were cheaper than CDs as one might logically expect (are they already? don't know), I might just be interested.

    And of course Apple has a DRM fetish. It's their shop and their policy. Granted, the music industry does too, but they are not the ones running iTunes.