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Should the Army use games to recruit? News

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News by Robert Purchese

30 November, 2009

Former Major Neil Powell has said that in terms of age, gender and background, gamers are "precisely the target audience the British Army wants". However, the establishment is so timid and out-of-touch that it "would never dream" of emulating the US Army, which funds its own interest-boosting game, America's Army.

"Our army is run by people that are still far too distant from the young soldiers that they lead," said Powell, speaking candidly to Eurogamer after retiring from the army.

"I have no idea about the background behind using an Xbox [360] controller to fly the pilot-less drones, but that must have been the most incredible trauma to get through the planning stage, just because that's not the way we think."

"The US Army is miles ahead of us on that; they understand completely their target audience," he added. "It isn't difficult to see why we have recruitment and retention problems."

An older, policy-making generation that does not understand videogames is a product of our society - the same society, Powell argues, that would be morally up in arms should this new medium of entertainment be used to recruit for war.

"Of course there's a moral debate: anything that looks at the way in which we try to recruit young men to essentially go to war is bound to be a moral debate," he said.

"Nevertheless, if we are going to accept that we need an army as a society, then we have to make sure we have sufficient numbers of staff in that army. And if people aren't going to join as a first job of choice because of things like piss-poor wages, because of things like abominable living conditions, and whether or not we choose to fund it in order to get jobs done, then we've got to recruit somehow.

"I do have a problem with this pious, self-righteous attitude of some in the civilian front who want an armed force, want to have the safety that an armed force provides in terms of defence, but they drop their guns and say it's morally wrong when we use videogames to recruit into the armed force," Powell stated.

"Most people like the security that an armed force brings them - they like the pomp and circumstance - but they don't want to send their own sons to join it."

Neil Powell spent 25 years in the army and is a veteran of the Balkan wars. He knows that games are no accurate recreation of life on a battlefield: "I can't think of medium that's going to be able to demonstrate what war is like other than war itself, therefore it's always going to be a depiction."

He said that we have to accept that army games "are being used over and over again anyway" whether we like it or not. "I don't think anyone believes that they are real," he added.

But isn't there something fundamentally wrong about misleading young men into thinking war is attractive? "I don't have that big a moral issue about the whole thing," said Powell. "We used to do the whole 'join the army, see the world, play lots of sport' and there were loads of [television] adverts about people climbing and all that sort of stuff. Those have slightly changed now but we're still advertising on TV, we still make the army look sexy.

"Let me use a bit of an analogy," he said. "When you see adverts for Lloyds TSB Bank you don't see them advertising repossessions, you don't see them advertising the huge bonus crisis and how much is being paid to certain key members of staff. You just don't see the negative side to it.

"And in much the same way you could argue whether it's moral for the army or any of the armed forces not to show, for instance, the repatriation at Brize Norton [the main logistics base where dead soldiers are brought home] or to show you soldiers at Headley Court, limbless. We don't do that - is that morally right?" he asked.

"We know the army's not like that: there are huge amounts of time that you're bored and in crap accommodation; they don't show you the crap kit; they don't show you the absolute hardship that soldiers put up with. It just looks great fun."

Neil Powell's comments arrive as Britain's Royal Navy begins issuing sailors with PSPs so that they can study in the tight confines of boat bunks and while on rough waters.

Videogames were also recently at the forefront of British politics and media when Modern Warfare 2 and its controversial airport scene was welcomed by record-breaking audiences around the world. Does the passage, in which the player is asked to gun down unarmed civilians, bother a hardened soldier?

"No, not really. Does that make me a bad person? Probably in the eyes of most," said Powell. "I don't know what the answer is. I don't know why I don't think it's a big deal... If you're playing a game in which the object is to kill other people I'm not quite so sure it matters who those other people are. There is an interesting debate here, and that is that if you are a terrorist, you are only de-legitimised, in terms of your method of choosing to fight, by your enemy.

"If their chosen target happens to be one that we find unpalatable, does that make it less of a legitimate target than perhaps Operation: Rolling Thunder in Vietnam? It might be 'precision bombing' in Iraq and Afghanistan, [but] you can never ever rule out collateral damage.

"How far removed are we?" Powell asked. " Currently the Chilcot report committee is looking at the legality of the war in Iraq. Let's just say that they conclude that probably there was an element of illegality: if we consider that Iraq was illegal then actually, any collateral damage that was caused during that conflict, I don't see that there's a huge side-step between a terrorist choosing to kill civilians and the collateral damage that caused by any form of cruise missile that misses its target in what might be an illegal war."

Powell, a keen gamer, believes that videogames are "more pervasive" than films in the same way films are more pervasive than books: "there's a hierarchy of impact," he said.

"There's a key distinction about videogames; I do not believe that people who play Modern Warfare 2 are more likely to commit violence: the people who would commit violence would have committed it anyway," he explained.

Furthermore, Powell suggested that videogames - particularly at their most frustrating - can even help people with perseverance, "help people develop problem skills".

"There is a positive to this stuff," he said. "We might not like the medium through which it's done sometimes, but actually it's developing some positive skills."

"We've got to be really careful with our young people. It's a bit like alcohol, really: it's quite right and proper that children don't drink and they don't abuse alcohol at a young age and we should do everything we can to stop that. But knowing full-well that when they're out of our control they're going to do it, the easiest way is to accept that they're going to do it and try and find ways of being able to manage that.

"People do get frustrated, but generally the people who get really frustrated and might turn to do things they shouldn't do - if they didn't find this as a trigger they would find something else as a trigger," he added. "I'm a great believer in people: people inherently know what's right and what's wrong."

And, for what it's worth, Powell thinks Modern Warfare 2 is "outstandingly good". "I loved the first one and I think this one's improved. It's just genius," he said.

Head over to our Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising interview to hear more from former Major Neil Powell on just how realistic the game actually was.

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Comments: 1-36 of 36 in total

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BabyJesus
30/11/09 @ 18:58
#1
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Good read that.
Thedni
30/11/09 @ 19:00
#2
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Personally I don't have any more of a problem with this than I do with any other ingames adds.

That said its a bit of an immersion breaker on the old R6: Vegas seeing every poster advertising the Royal Navy (I think it was the Navy anyhoo).

*editted for missing out words... urrgh*
Edited 1 times, most recently on 30/11/09 @ 19:12
lunnyt00n
30/11/09 @ 19:04
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I agree with the 1st post. He makes some very good points.

Also nice to hear him speak out on things like the quality of our equipment used in the field. Equipment our guys and girls desperately need out in places like Afghanistan to stay as safe as possible.
Edited 1 times, most recently on 30/11/09 @ 19:05
Stompy
30/11/09 @ 19:08
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Former Major Neil Powell has said that in terms of age, gender and background, gamers are "precisely the target audience the British Army wants".

Working with young adults, I know for a fact he's right. The players who play modern-times FPS games (especially online) most intensively generally come from exactly the same sector of society that the Army needs currently - chavonfodder.
beemoh
30/11/09 @ 19:14
#5
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"chavonfodder"

Word of the year.
MrParker
30/11/09 @ 19:19
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I don't know. Some of the video game players I've seen would probably be more dangerous to friendlies than the enemy.
Edited 1 times, most recently on 30/11/09 @ 19:19
naffers
30/11/09 @ 19:26
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Mrparker that explains why so much blue on blue comes from america then. recruiting from games is bad! :P

Also have they ever thought maybe people are wisening up to not wanting to get their head blown off for some tw@ to profit
Oh-Bollox
30/11/09 @ 19:54
#8
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But isn't there something fundamentally wrong about misleading young men into thinking war is attractive?

Except that war is attractive. Regardless of the morality of it, humans love war. We're good at it. War for us is a massive technological and social booster. We can use it to get stuff we want. We use it to kill people we don't like, or who are just unfortunate enough not to be flavour of the month.

Like it or not, fighting other human beings is seen as quite possibly the ultimate challenge. Having fought and killed is the most exclusive boy's club. We're already a violent race, and after months of military training, we're taught to focus it and concentrate it on various techniques that make us even more efficient killers. We all want to fight, to test ourselves against others, and we all want to win.

It's not a nice thing. It's not pleasant, and it speaks volumes about human beings. Soldiers, when asked, will say "No, we don't want to fight, we don't want to go to war." because otherwise civilians will think they're sick in the head, but actually yes, they DO want to fight. All that training and waiting for no reason at all? Would a doctor go to medical school for years and then, fully qualified, say "Actually, I don't want to practise medicine."

The military protects society and allows it be all soft and gentle, when the world as a whole isn't soft and gentle, and there are dictatorships out there who would quite happily take over your country if they had the chance and turn it into a Hellhole. The unfortunate thing is, the military has to be quite tough, and this divorces it from the lovey-dovey society that spawned it.

/ ramble off.
DrStrangelove
30/11/09 @ 20:14
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Oh-Bollox, I'm afraid there are many who wish they'd never gone to war.

But this is a really interesting interview, very good arguments, and all honest and factual. More of this.
Silvervein
30/11/09 @ 20:17
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*oh-bollox

I'd like to comment on what you said.

First thing, your attitude is quite popular among people who will not have to go and get shot, and possibly killed for reasons they don't really get. It's great to show your patriotic fervor when you sit at home. It's quite different story when you get drafted and sent to front line. So unless you wrote your message on your laptop, sitting in barracks in afghanistan, I think you might want to mitigate your saber rattling.

Secondly, about the need for army. Could you tell me who recently invaded europe? Where are those armies of slavering monstrosities waiting to take away your fish and chips, and send you to work in the mines?
To the best of my knowledge, the only recent use of british army was to invade another country that is not even remotely close to england, and the only reason for that was hope of getting a cut of their oil at discount prices. Leftovers from uncle sam feast, if you will. Opinions might differ, but I don't think that using army for what's basically an armed robbery is enough reason to justify spending billions on it, in situation where education, social and medical care are in desperate need of attention.
notmyrealname
30/11/09 @ 20:23
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why not, they use the news to talk people into mass murder, why not games to brainwash kids. It's barely any different than the mindless hollywood slaughter of non-american people anyway...

I seriously don't see much difference between America's army and the gun whoring, xenophobic culture made for the inbreds over there.
Edited 2 times, most recently on 30/11/09 @ 20:39
jiveguy
30/11/09 @ 20:38
#12
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Does the army really want people like me who has reached a level of physical fitness to just about hold a gamepad steady while trying to down some junk food?
elbutzo
30/11/09 @ 20:46
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Well, hell, no! The army should f*** off and leave us alone. Anyone who joins the army for whatever reason is a retarded arsehole. No matter who much I like shooting enemies in video games, joining any army in the world is like total sellout of the own soul. Peace.
Davemanz
30/11/09 @ 21:26
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Somebody ought to tell him that, despite having an official, free video game, the US Army is still having a hard time meeting its recruitment goals. And good riddance, too.
dj1917
30/11/09 @ 21:27
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What the fuck is wrong with all of you who are for this? These murdering bastards want YOU to DIE for American OIL. War is not a game. They rely on simple-minded twats to fall for all this crap. At the risk of sounding old, kids in the 60's, 70's and 80's would never have put up with this shit, but then that's when we had a counter-culture and everyone under 30 hadn't turned into a conformist, reactionary cunt. The world's turned upside down. What the fuck happened to youthful idealism? I suppose you can't expect much from the X Factor generation. Back to the 1950's we go, tug your forelock, salute the fucking queen. At this rate they'll be back burning witches by 2020.
dither
30/11/09 @ 21:30
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I'm joining the army. The brochures are glossy and are full of good looking smiling soldiers and exciting depictions of sport, adventure and all of the kit and vehicles the army can deploy. Even the officer (another Major, incidentally) who interviewed me played down the war-fighting aspect slightly and bigged up the adventure, but I'm under no illusions as to what I will be doing in the infantry. Oh and 'elbutzo', good luck finding somebody to protect you when the Taliban come knocking on the door, you naive idiot.
mossychops001
30/11/09 @ 22:24
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No
linea
30/11/09 @ 23:54
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anyone stupid enough to think real war is like MW2 is probably no great loss to the gene pool anyway.

as long as they're not allowed live ammunition anywhere near me...
hiddenranbir
01/12/09 @ 02:16
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"Neil Powell spent 25 years in the army and is a veteran of the Balkan wars."

Do you mean Falklands?

davisorle
01/12/09 @ 04:23
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Like i stated when first announced of this, Im fully against it. Im from Greece and here you have to serve at least a year the army, ( now it got reduced recently to 9 months I htink ) like it or not once you turn 18. Unless ofc you have college to attend to etc in which cases you excuse from the army yourself with proof of reasons and you serve whenever you are done with it.

So, if you see with my eyes the kiddos that were so misserable, half incapable to hold a gun, half incapable to dress themselves, some even holding it in so badly to not cry for being taken away from home... I'm sorry but even if in this case its under their own choice, in my case I wouldnt trust my country being defended by a bunch of kiddos who have no actual training and are incapable to take care of themselves, let alone stand up for the rest of us, makes it no better knowing a country is being deffended, if not from guys that had no better luck through unemployment or being plain bad at school, to now include also hardcore gamers or social wrecks or any of those kids that kill over lost games like stated in articles too often over the web or whatever that might be. Its a risk which I wouldnt be willing to take.

Its not somethign that they are doing here but even if its in the UK i thought id say straight out the way I see it. In short, yeah im fully against this. I find it wrong, bad and plain stupid of a goverment to do. No matter how desperate they might be..
Stompy
01/12/09 @ 07:29
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Regardless of the morality of it, humans love war. We're good at it.

Why do we need to break down recruits and train them to kill?
Why do so many come back unable to function in society and pack our prisons to the rafters?
Why, without such training, did soldiers so often fire high to miss their targets in the past?

War was historically important for humans, and sadly it will likely continue to be until we are extinct. Yet most individuals are naturally quite crap at it.
Erebu
01/12/09 @ 07:54
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Should the Army use games to recruit? What a stupid question. Hell NO!

@ boneparteofballybay
You know exactly which "Balkan War" they mean.

drxym
01/12/09 @ 09:09
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I'd love to see a British equivalent of America's Army. I think in some senses it could even be better, and extremely popular especially if they commissioned someone like Bohemia Interactive to produce it.

I don't have any moral objectives to it either. It's not like there is no such thing as a war game, so perhaps an official product might a bit of realism and perspective to it. Just like in AA, when you're dead you're dead so the game enforces proper teamwork through the ultimate sanction.
JensonJet
01/12/09 @ 09:43
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As tough as this is for me, I'm not going to get involved in the political and moral arguments about war or the army. We all have our opinions, we're all right in our own eyes, and humanity will never ever cease to fight, so...

I would really love to see a British equivalent of the game America's Army. By far that was one of the best games I've ever played (back in the days when I gamed on a computer). The players of that game were better organised and disciplined than any other gamers I've met since. This was probably down to the fact you only played with people of a similar level/experience, and by losing rounds or friendly fire could actually drop levels. I wish the same technique was applied to all online games rather than the pathetic casual gamer pandering techniques employed by Modern Warfare and the rest. Also, it would be nice to see a British development team take on the task of creating virtual British soldiers. As we have some of the best (if not, the best) special forces on the planet I'd love to see a non Americanised take on the marines and the SAS.

Incidently, in America's Army you were kicked out of a game the instant you teamkilled. How absolutely, incredibly ironic is that!
schnide
01/12/09 @ 09:43
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I'd say this guy is either ignorant or more likely pulling off a moral sleight of hand. People play games precisely because they can experience war without having to actually get their legs blown off, and the purpose of military recruitment is to overplay the excitement and downplaying the fact that you could come back blind and maimed.
knocker
01/12/09 @ 09:50
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I'm slightly disturbed that this man has been in a position of authority, even more concerned he is responsible for anybody else.

By all means, go play COD it's a lot easier to stomach (even "edgy" airport scenes) than reading any of the "forgotten voices" series of books.

Lions led by donkeys. As it ever was.
Edited 1 times, most recently on 01/12/09 @ 09:51
M_of_the_sys
01/12/09 @ 10:02
#27
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I could never join the army as my hands are too dainty for the masculin x-box controller.
Stompy
01/12/09 @ 10:02
#28
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"We all have our opinions, we're all right in our own eyes, and humanity will never ever cease to fight, so..."

Substitute 'rape' for 'fight' and you understand why this argument is facile.
actionfitz
01/12/09 @ 10:20
#29
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"The US Army is miles ahead of us on that; they understand completely their target audience,"

what? young people from economically deprived areas with very little chance of a decent education or vocational training?
Despite the high likelihood of an untimely and gruesome death in the hills of Afghanistan or Iraq... it's not hard to see why so many young people in the states see the army as an appealing option :/
Murton
01/12/09 @ 11:04
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"It isn't difficult to see why we have recruitment and retention problems."

Except that has nothing to do with the Army being "out of touch" with the young men they want to recruit and quite a lot to do with pay. The borderline illiterate staff at your local call centre earn significantly more than a new recruit these days.

Sure there are some great benefits in the army, but the poor starting pay combined with the risks of war (especially if you're undermanned and ill-equipped as our army has been throughout the Afghan campaign) make a "normal" job a no brainer. Looking at gamers is definitely the way to go in order to better focus our recruitment strategy, but the only way to get maximum effect is to look at the package being offered and trying to find out why those who may already have an interest aren't taking the offer or worse, changing their minds shortly after they have signed up.
MikeN
01/12/09 @ 11:42
#31
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I don't mind using games as recruitment tools as long as they accurately reflect army life like this.
Silvervein
01/12/09 @ 12:24
#32
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*Mike N

LOL :)
Nice find. Yes, that's the ultimate realism modern warfare :)
el_pollo_diablo
01/12/09 @ 12:50
#33
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I don't really have a problem with the army using games to recruit.
I do have a problem with the army using schools.
CCF anyone?

"Most people like the security that an armed force brings them - they like the pomp and circumstance - but they don't want to send their own sons to join it."

- Well of course they don't. This country isn't under attack. Who in their right mind would want their children to be part of an invading army? To be told to fight and kill for all the wrong reasons? To satiate the greed of a few? Silly thing to say there. Silly.
Edited 1 times, most recently on 01/12/09 @ 12:56
YourMessageHere
01/12/09 @ 14:23
#34
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"Let me use a bit of an analogy," he said. "When you see adverts for Lloyds TSB Bank you don't see them advertising repossessions, you don't see them advertising the huge bonus crisis and how much is being paid to certain key members of staff. You just don't see the negative side to it.

True enough. But then again, you don't see them depict repossessions as "CONTINUE? [Y/N]" and when you press Y you get your mortgage back and start from the last saved payment. Fairly sure America's Army has respawns in, as would any other military game that wanted players to join up. At root, it's stupid to complain about advertisements in any form, as advertisements are not ever representative of reality; what worries me is the fact that this is a very complex advert that appears not to be one, and as such there's this tendency to take it as being realistic, just as things like MW2 are taken as realistic when they are far from it.

I'd feel a lot happier if the army simply came out and said "WANTED: young fit people for difficult government-sponsored jobs. Get paid to kill and threaten to kill people for Britain's best interests (warning: involves dehumanising training and loss of decision-making rights, may include risk of death or maiming)." and left people to make their own minds up about how they felt about that, rather than couching it in all this bullshit about honour and national pride and teamwork and "being the best", and so forth.

I wonder how this chappie feels about the officially licensed British military Action Man-like toy soldiers that are in toyshops up and down the country right now? Look for example in the Argos catalogue. I do have some qualms about people playing a game that is sponsored by the military, but to me a line of kids toys is rather more insidious and underhand. Game players (I would hope, at least) are old enough to know what they are doing, but giving kids toys that potentially make British soldiers into heroes by default...that's too far. I respect military people very much, but heroic is definitely not what I'd call them.
Stompy
01/12/09 @ 16:41
#35
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I respect military people very much, but heroic is definitely not what I'd call them.

The reason there are particular medals for bravey, courage and heroism shows that it would be self-defeating to label all as heroic. That would be the kind of "every child gets a certificate at today's Sports Day!!!" mentality that usually gets Daily Mail readers frothing like swine being fed bacon.
IMD1_Pk
01/12/09 @ 17:45
#36
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Yes they should.....Especially through Modern Warfare and Call of Duty games :). I really want to see all those dumb-struck parents crying after their children decide to give up on a higher education and joining the army instead.

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