Safe Bets

The Wii offered a chance to innovate without taking huge risks, but consumers weren't interested.

Published as part of our sister-site GamesIndustry.biz's widely-read weekly newsletter, the GamesIndustry.biz Editorial, is a weekly dissection of an issue weighing on the minds of the people at the top of the games business. It appears on Eurogamer after it goes out to GI.biz newsletter subscribers.

The suggestion from Japanese publisher Marvelous Entertainment that it is to withdraw from creating original IP and focus instead on franchise sequels has been met with widespread derision from gamers, and some measure of sad head-nodding from industry insiders.

Both sides of the fence, however, see this as simply being a rather blatant step in a not entirely wholesome direction - an acknowledgement that in the boxed games market, at least, the risks of investing in IP have grown even further in recent years, and perversely that the market's willingness to support such investments seem to have declined.

That's due, in part, to the steady advance of platform fragmentation. Setting aside emerging platforms such as mobile phones and social networks - they're an entirely different story - we find the games industry divided up into a challenging assortment of different devices.

Beloved by core, upstream gamers, the HD consoles, namely Xbox 360 and PS3, are expensive to develop and publish games for, and neither has yet managed to eke out a commanding lead over the other - or an installed base truly big enough to give niche titles a fair chance at success. The PC, meanwhile, is cheaper to publish on, but is rife with piracy and suffers a shrinking boxed games market - hardly a place you want to make a major investment.

The Wii enjoys an installed base almost the size of the HD consoles' combined, and is quite cheap to develop for - with costs comparable with the last generation of hardware. The Nintendo DS, too, is in rude health in terms of installed base, but like its home console sibling, suffers from low software sales, especially of core titles and especially in the West.

The PSP feels like a platform limping towards a generation shift; except in Japan, of course, where it is a resurgent and important console, largely due to Capcom's Monster Hunter series.

Faced with this market situation, Marvelous - along with several other publishers - chose to focus its efforts on the Wii. The reasoning was solid enough - development for the 360 and PS3 is simply too expensive, making the risk of creating new IP so huge as to be unbearable for all but the largest and wealthiest publishers. The Wii has a huge installed base, and for all that they complain about the console, many core gamers still own one of them as a companion to their HD console.

What this didn't take into account, however, is just how fractured the market has actually become. Faced with critically acclaimed titles like Marvelous' No More Heroes, Little King's Story or, indeed, SEGA's MadWorld, the core gamers who might have been expected to pick up their Wiimotes for such software failed to do so. The games sold, but not in the kind of numbers that made them into a truly worthwhile commercial enterprise.

Regardless of whether they own a Wii or not, it turns out that the core market - the same market which so vocally demands innovation and new IP, and derides sequels and franchise updates - still prefers to play games on the HD consoles. That's not entirely surprising. If you're a core gamer, you probably own a HD television, and even if you don't play online multiplayer very much, you're still probably connected to PSN or Xbox Live and enjoy the benefits of those services.

However, the gamble was that you'd still be willing to walk the walk, having talked the talk over and over again, and would be swayed by acclaimed new IP to part with your cash. This was the gamble taken by a number of mid-range publishers - Marvelous is far from alone - over the past two years. It's a gamble which appears to have failed.

The argument has been made repeatedly in recent days that Marvelous simply "targeted the wrong platform". This is both true and largely meaningless. Developing boxed titles for the 360 or PS3 is much more expensive than for the Wii; had there been no alternative but to create 360 games, it's unlikely that Marvelous would ever have strayed into the original IP business and taken risks on games such as No More Heroes. This is the company behind Harvest Moon; it knows a thing or two about milking cows, and would have been content to continue doing so.

It would be easy, at this point, to mutter darkly about consumers getting what they deserve; to argue that if they're not willing to abandon platform prejudice in order to support innovative software, then they should stop moaning when game companies fall back on sequels.

Publishers and developers, after all, have a primary responsibility to keep their bank accounts healthy, their employees salaried, their buildings maintained, their debts serviced and their bills paid, none of which can be achieved merely from the happy afterglow of creating something really lovely and innovative. They need to make money, and if gamers don't buy innovative software, they're forced to turn to franchise updates.

However, this inclination to point at gamers and say "this is why we can't have nice things!" captures only a small part of the truth. The reality is that most core gamers don't really see the Wii as being relevant to their corner of our hobby.

It's a machine for children and middle-aged women, they feel - valid markets in themselves, but hardly relevant to the male teens and twenty-somethings who make up the core demographic (and who haven't quite got used to sharing this playground with other people yet, resulting in an unhappy proclivity to scuffles and tantrums around the sandpit). There's a sense that Nintendo has abandoned this demographic, and they, in turn, have abandoned the Wii.

The reality doesn't quite support this notion. Nintendo, in fact, publishes about as many core games on an annual basis as it always has - it's just that it also publishes a variety of titles like Wii Fit as additional items on its release schedule.

Third-party publishers, certainly, focus on the HD consoles for the most part, but there's still a decent stream of core-relevant games on the Wii. The problem is perception, and that problem arises from the absolute torrent of low-grade software which floods onto the Wii platform month after month.

The fact that the Wii is up to its neck in dreadful software feeds the perception of the platform as irrelevant for core gamers - a perception many segments of the specialist press have, shamefully, been only too happy to encourage. Moreover, there are serious suggestions that it has also damaged the perception of the platform within the casual audience which it so successfully won over, with consumers burned by low-quality software quickly deciding not to invest in the sector again.

Namco Bandai's sales, marketing and publishing VP Olivier Comte told MCV in an interview this week that the Wii market has "collapsed"; strong wording, but not an uncommon sentiment within the industry.

The tragedy is that the Wii is the best platform for innovative software for exactly the same reason that it has ended up swimming in sub-par rubbish - because it's cheap, quick and easy to develop for. What should have been the console's greatest strength has instead become its Achilles heel.

A solution is easy enough to see; Nintendo could, and perhaps should, become more ruthless in its quality control processes, denying access to its platform to substandard titles and making the "Licensed by Nintendo" seal into something actually meaningful once more. However, smaller publishers and developers would inevitably suffer under such a regime; it may even end up being more unpalatable, overall, than the current mess.

Instead, the failure of brave experiments on the Wii is likely to drive the boxed games market as a whole further into franchise territory, extinguishing the hope that a platform with lower development costs could act as an incubator for new IP and innovative ideas.

The positive side of this, however, is that boxed games are no longer the be all and end all of the market. Developers willing to take a risk on a new idea now have new outlets - PSN, Xbox Live, Steam, iOS and Facebook, to name but a few.

In light of this, it's easy to predict how the coming five years will shape up - with boxed product being restricted to franchises, sequels and blockbuster, marketing led titles from huge publishers, while the real innovation and development takes place on digital platforms, never touching the store shelves.

For all our misgivings about digital distribution, the market - consumers and publishers alike - has now ensured that innovation has little place in boxed games. That's a reality which we may come to regret.

If you work in the games industry and want more views, and up-to-date news relevant to your business, read our sister website GamesIndustry.biz, where you can find this weekly editorial column as soon as it is posted.

Comments (55) Latest comment 2 years ago

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  • berelain #1 2 years ago

    Interesting article. Personally, I bought both MadWorld and No More Heroes, but the foirmer was let down by an atrocious 50hz only conversion for the PAL Market (WHY?) and No More Heroes was okay, but not really a spectacular game in line with some of the other titles I could be playing on other consoles.

    Perhaps a much better option would have been for Marvellous to target not the Xbox 360 / PS3 boxed market, but the Xbox Live Arcade and PSN. No More Heroes would fit in perfectly- and I'm eagerly awaiting its re-release on Xbox 360. The problem I always have with games on the Wii is that constant nagging feeling that the same game would be much better on a different machine- No More Heroes being a prime example of this, and even Red Steel 2. But most Wii titles rely too much on having 'innovative' control systems and being 'different' rather than focusing on their gameplay.

    Perhaps the real reason games like No More Heroes and MadWorld haven't sold that well on the Wii isn't because gamers don't want them, or because there's too much shovelware on the platform- but simply because they're not, actually, all that great.
  • Rufus #2 2 years ago

    Great article Rob. Compelling and rich.

    /group hugs Little Kings Story and No More Heroes
  • TheRealBadabing #3 2 years ago

    The problem with hardcore games on the Wii is...the Wii. Gamers have, over the years, become accustomed to a level of precision which is simply not possible if current motion sensing tech is used. I think we have all bought a few traditional games for the Wii but many of us have simply given up after too many disappointments.

    Party games are fine but every time I load up a "proper" game, I find myself battling the control scheme as much as the content. It's not about numbers of buttons or pixel perfect aiming, it's more do do with the Wii not accurately sensing what I want it to do. Any session inevitably degenerates into lots of waggling and getting repeatedly slapped in the balls by the nunchuk lead.
  • Essien #4 2 years ago

    The fact is games are too expensive to take risks on.

    Make them shorter and cheaper!
  • Freek #5 2 years ago

    But the quality hasn't really been there, has it? No More Heroes, Mad World, both got midling reviews. Repetive gamplay, unpolished experience.
    The rest of the "core" Wii games were even worse. Low budget spin off titles and light gun shooters. Not very inspiring at all.
    Outside of Nintendo it just seems like nobody is really putting in the effort to make great Wii games.
  • KDR_11k #6 2 years ago

    I hate getting blamed for the sales of Madworld and NMH2. I'm buying a ton of core games on the Wii, just not those. I have no desire to buy or play either no matter how much the critics fawn over them. Why? I played NMH1 and didn't like it and heard plenty from other gamers about Madworld. If I wanted an ultraviolent brawler game I still have a mostly-unplayed copy of God of War on my shelf. That it's mostly unplayed is a testament to the fact that I don't want an ultraviolent brawler. Meanwhile I did buy Red Steel 2, The Conduit, Onslaught, Water Warfare and even a heavily discounted copy of Red Steel 1 because I am looking for a good FPS for the system and have been mostly unsatisfied (I like RS2 but it's not really scratching that FPS itch and I've already played through Onslaught often enough that I don't want to go back again).

    Maybe Marvellous should have looked at what sold in the past (hint: Not God Hand or Suda 51 games) and just made something like that instead of assuming the market magically went poof and turned into something completely else.

    The fact is games are too expensive to take risks on.

    Make them shorter and cheaper!


    No, make them uglier. Games in the 8 and 16 bit era weren't terribly expensive by modern standards but the ones meant for length weren't short either.
    Edited by 1 at 12/06/10 @ 11:36
  • Artemis_Matsas #7 2 years ago

    I agree with all the previous comments, although one fact goes unmentioned: The huge Piracy problem that the Wii is facing as a platform.
    Most of my friends have an HD console along with a hacked to death Wii. I have been offered again and again to have my Wii hacked by a simple SD card hack, but i refuse because i'm partly an idiot and partly because i despise piracy.
    What i want to say here is that most "core" gamers that happen to also have a Wii, will have probably played a hacked version of Mad World or No More Heroes.
  • Machetazo #8 2 years ago

    Gamers walk the walk, when the publishers oblige in kind. They may have asked for those kind of games to released - the Wii, with its contrasted position (Nintendo's disinterest) and general inconsistency, as regards the HD players' interests was never part of the deal.

    What happens, is you tend to get: exciting game is announced, leads to chatter and excitement, and which systems? Wii/DS. :/ The feedback, then, is: Well, I don't have one of those, so I guess I'll just IGNORE this game that I can't play.
    BUT, those consoles for a lot of gamers are unable to sustain the long-term interest, so they've the choice of the proverbial dog for Christmas, that machine will probably be off for a long time. There are some great games for it, but the publishers have made their call, both third and first party, and that's the way the platform has behaved and audience reacted.
    They were right to do it, financially, but I don't know if history will recall their approach as warmly.

    I agree with you, berelain, too, that PSN/XBLA should be considered as valuable routes to get games out to more people that it';s believed would play them, if they (the players) were better supported oin the primary platform. In short, bring the games to the players - isn't that the publisher's role anyway?
    Edited by 1 at 12/06/10 @ 11:44
  • dsmx #9 2 years ago

    Most wii games just aren't very good have poor controls and repetitive gameplay. Most games are good on the ps3 and xbox 360, or at least you don't need to wrestle with the controls to get them to work properly.
    Edited by 1 at 12/06/10 @ 11:43
  • Praetorianer #10 2 years ago

    The article sums up the situation pretty good.

    "The reality doesn't quite support this notion. Nintendo, in fact, publishes about as many core games on an annual basis as it always has - it's just that it also publishes a variety of titles like Wii Fit as additional items on its release schedule."

    One thing I don't understand about "core gamers" is, that especially the well informed group at the core, the ones who regularly surf the net for information about games, who actively participate in forums, they should know better. I have the feeling that fanboism really ruins the videogame scene, because not the games themselves matter, only the system they get published on.

    While it's true that there's a flood of average and below average games for both the Wii and DS, there are still so many very good games left for both systems, that it's almost impossible to play them all for the average gamer, both timewise and moneywise (everybody else can consider themselves rich or being a pirate). The same goes for Xbox360 and PS3.

    The flood of mediocre or bad games is more a problem for the casual crowd, if you attribute "less informed" to that target group. People may buy games due to advertising or fancy package design and end up being disappointed, which may prevent them from buying other games or considering buying another console in the future as a result. Nintendo's success in enlargening the video game market (which, let's face it, was facing a serious decline or negative tendency from 2001 on), from which the industry as a whole benefited, by attracting new customers may very well be put in danger by that. So, I agree, there should be some kind of meaning to the "seal of quality".


    The problem about the battle between Sony and Microsoft is, that there's much more at stake than just a "console war". Both manufacturers have to try to top their respective competitors, which makes the development and the end product on the hardware side very expensive matter, and almost surely a losing deal.The result for the software creators are higher licensing fees, difficult programming, and very high risk in developing exclusive titles...all in all, like you said, the market entry barriers and the risks are way too high. The retail price for the final product has to be equally high=fewer customers. Nintendo has the benefit of being a game developer and not really aiming at much more than that and for close observers, they maintain a pretty good one.


    @Artemis_Matsas

    Agreed. Almost everyone I know, even the people, who usually have no clue whatsoever about anything related to computers (read "girls";), have a modded Wii or DS and know how and where to download pirated games.
    Edited by 2 at 12/06/10 @ 11:52
  • Sharzam #11 2 years ago

    I did have a Wii but i just simpley found it frustrating to play on, more often than not the control system was shoe horned in also I have a relativly powerful PC and a 360.

    Graphics dont mean everything but there are many other factors as you touched on. Such as online services and sound funcationlity. Were not talking about some retro games or nostaligia were talking about modern new games why play on the wii when you can have a better experience on a 360 ? So simpley put if i only have time to play 1 game do i pick one on the console with better sound, graphics, online or the wii.

    Regards to innovation i think that it will always be there as much as money speaks in this world, creativity always has a way. Does it really matter if that comes from boxed retail or download services ? Leave those francises, spin offs and general milking to those that want that sort of stuff both can exist its not a case of only innovation or only milking.
  • Rev.StuartCampbell #12 2 years ago

    Cheap development is useless without cheap prices. The App Store supports innovation and originality in new IP with great enthusiasm and buckets of money. But App Store games cost 59p - £2.99 and Wii games cost £30+, and as some of us have been saying for 20 years now, people simply won't risk £30+ on stuff they don't know. Nintendo's pisspoor and greedy implementation of download games hasn't helped either.
  • djed #13 2 years ago

    I'm sorry, but the tagline and opening sentence of this article are incongruous.
  • Charlie_Miso #14 2 years ago

    Article is wasted on the idiots here
  • schoozzzmmii #15 2 years ago

    For my money's worth, Wii has been the best thing about this gen by a fucking mile.

    For my money the best thing about this generation has been XBLA (i've yet to get a PS3 so don't know about PSN). I love retro and arcade style titles and amongst the titles sat on my hard drive right now are 1942: Joint Strike, Afterburner Climax, Alien Homanid HD, Bionic Commando Rearmed, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, DOOM 1 and 2, Geometry Wars 1 and 2, Gripshift, Gunstar Heroes, Ikaruga, Lumines, Marble Blast Ultra, Monkey Island Special Edition, Mutant Storm Reloaded and Empire, N+, Omega V, Outrun Arcade, Pacman Chapionship Edition, Perfect Dark, Rez HD, Shadow Complex, The Sonic Games, Space Giraffe, Space Invaders Extreme, 'Splosion Man and Trials HD. There's such an abundance of old and new titles all available for ten quid or under. True, it's not as cheap as the iOS apps but it's still great value and with demos of every title you can at least try before you buy.
  • AliRay #16 2 years ago

    I'm not sure this is a problem of innovation, but one of percieved value. Devs and publishers want to put as little money into a game as possible in order to increase their profits. These games are still put onto shelves in the same price-range as your Call of Duties/Gears of Wars. The customer, when making comparisons, will often go for the games that they think is most worthy of their cash, and these cheaper-made games flop. If all Wii games were say, £20-25 on release, they might seem better value for money?
  • Incarta #17 2 years ago

    Everyone is to blame. It's a vicious circle.
  • secombe #18 2 years ago

    The Wii...suffers from low software sales

    Is there actually any truth to this? The weekly charts (across the globe) have always suggested otherwise. I'd be surprised if the Wii attach rate was significantly lower than that of the PS3.
  • metalangel #19 2 years ago

    XBLA is great, though I'd buy a lot more stuff off it if the prices were a bit lower (I'd love to see figures of how much the sales jump when something is a deal of the week). As for the Wii, I can't stand to play games on it for long. My parents (mx dad especially) aren't ignorant of games and were going on and on about finally getting to try Wii Sports at my cousin's house this Christmas. They were disappointed, especially after we spent hours each evening play 1vs100 and Top Spin 2 on the 360. The Wii is too much of a novelty, and there aren't enough games to make people think otherwise.
  • Agnates #20 2 years ago

    The writer seems stuck in 2006, is ignoring relevant facts like Marvelous' HD games also failing to get meaningful sales (including the No More Heroes remake), mentioning MadWorld which was a sub-par game hardcore gamers knew to avoid, and failing to mention hardcore games that did sell good on Wii, of which there are plenty, both by Nintendo and third parties. Not to mention that Marvelous so far only made niche games on Wii, and niche games on all platforms don't perform great this generation, with few exceptions. It's the whole point of being niche, serving a particular small audience, for small returns, because you can't compete with the big mainstream boys. If anything, the Wii has supported plenty such niche developers, and that certain quality games didn't sell well can be easily explained with more than just blaming the Wii. For example, NMH2 was handled bad by the US publisher with no promotion (I guess Ubisoft wanted to direct people to other titles of their own), while it was very delayed in Europe (possibly due to Marvelous going independent from Rising Star - a weird move as most of their games sold well in Europe even - with again little hype, so despite being the better game, it's doing worse than the first. Also, I love how he faults the DS software sales in the West, yet tries to bring up the PSP under a brighter light due to its success in Japan (which is still far below the DS there) even though it's dead everywhere else. Clearly, this wasn't a thoughtful look into the state of the market and the industry in order to reach any meaningful conclusion, it was someone who already had his mind set on what the problem is, the Wii, the DS, Nintendo, etc, and decided to gloss over elements that support his view while ignoring everything else as meaningless. Meh.
    Edited by 3 at 12/06/10 @ 14:26
  • Agnates #21 2 years ago

    I should also add it's stupid to want first parties to actively stop games from being released on their platforms. Aside from bugs QA and what not, that is both illegal in many EU countries (so long as someone meets the criteria for dev kits, licencing and what not, he gets the green light), and stupid. You're speaking for hardcore gamers here, they should know which games are most likely to be great just by following development and online impressions a bit, if not getting hands-on time @ a store. You can decide what you want to buy for yourself, why ask Nintendo, Sony or Microsoft to regulate releases in such a way? So you can then complain that game x or y that you thought was cool wasn't allowed to be released, like you did for Fatal Frame IV ignoring the fact TECMO refused to fix game breaking issues with it? Give me a break...

    Last generation, and the generation before that, the market leaders were FULL of shovelware just like the Wii. Literally thousands of titles were released, but both gamers and the press simply ignored the majority of it, aside from articles like "the dud of the month" at the last page or something. Clearly they aren't doing the same with the Wii, revelling in pointing out the shit and the amount of it, and often failing to decently cover the good stuff. I guess it goes with turning yellow.

    And as others said, Wii attach rate isn't far behind the other systems, and it's actually sold as much software as the 360 (if not more by now with certain recent multimillion selling titles) while being on the market a full year less! Obviously attach rates increase over time for all systems, even if not at the same rate. Maybe it's not the games you want that are selling well (though again you failed to mention plenty core titles that did good on Wii), but what are the games that sell doing right? Marketing, obviously, which is something most hardcore developers fail to do, treating the Wii much like the gaming press does, hoping it will just go away instead of using it to make more money instead of bleed money left and right from the high costs of HD development. They're leaving money on the table despite notable success stories and all you "journalists" can say is Nintendo should do this or that? What more can they do? Moneyhat every single third party? As succesful as they are, they know it's not guaranteed forever so they need the money accumulated now, they're just a games company not electronic or technology colossus like Microsoft and Sony.

    They still have worked with third parties, to get Monster Hunter Tri (hey, sold good), Dragon Quest X (will sell good, as did IX), paying for and publishing Mistwalker's The Last Story (so whether it sells or not, they got their money, but I'm sure it will do ok), collaborating with Team Ninja for Metroid and working with Koei for Samurai Warriors 3 extras, even adding an online mode for the Western release they handled, even lending Mario to SEGA for one of their casual franchises. They also helped to get Guitar Hero 5's online mode on par with the PS360 according to most critics, and offer all the features developed in their dev kits (and yet, companies still don't do effort for online Wii games). They even worked with smaller companies like HVS, helping them develop certain features they wanted. Clearly they're not hard to approach like in the SNES days, so perhaps it's the other companies that don't care to work with them, rather than vice versa.

    As for Nintendo games, people seem to think they get a free pass and any crap will do 10 million sales, so in such arguments they always single out and say "only Nintendo games sell" on Wii. Of course it's false given the 50+ third party million sellers and plenty more success stories with half that or whatever for smaller games, but even if true, why not examine why instead? Nintendo simply knows how to market their games and how to please their audience, unlike most third party efforts. They've built a brand name people trust, while third parties keep destroying their own in front of the Wii audience. So no, it's not Nintendo that should change attitude here to fix the situation. No company has done platform games as good as Mario, or deep and engaging action adventures like Metroid, instead only taking 6 months to develop Wii Sports knock offs, like people will keep buying those forever. They're creating a gap which Nintendo is more than happy to fill with their own titles, and gamers are happy to let them have their money. That is all.

    Damned if you Nintendo, damned if you Nintendon't I guess. Also, plenty more studios have shutdown, been reduced, etc, due to HD costs and failures than the 2-3 companies that were troubled due to (usually badly handled) involvement with Wii development. Remember Peter Wanat? The media sure loved this guy's sensational statements about the Wii even though he was not involved with it and clearly didn't know what he's talking about with his claims of how much you need to sell here or there to make a profit (yeah, a low budget game like MadWorld totally needed 3 million sales for profit, while something with the HD production values and marketing of Bayonetta is a huge success with just over one, lol). His company went under. But let's ignore that stuff also.
    Edited by 4 at 12/06/10 @ 15:28
  • rudderless #22 2 years ago

    Fabulous. One of the most fair, balanced and accurate pieces I've read on this subject. The dig at certain sections of the specialist press is totally right - sites which have awarded 'lesser' Wii games 8s and above suddenly start going on about "dusting off" Wiis when tentpole Nintendo releases emerge. Few commentators dare to go against the grain and admit that the Wii at least has a solid showing of inventive and unique titles among the shovelware dreck. I'd like to offer special praise here for Kotaku's Stephen Totilo, who often reviews lesser-known games on Wii and DS including some great titles on both consoles' download services.
  • Pasco #23 2 years ago

    MadWorld is shit. The framerate is bad, it has tearing, the camera is too close to know who is beside you, the motion input adds absolutely nothing to the game. It's actually annoying because it seems like the only reason it exists is because there are not enough buttons on the remote. It tries to be something of a score-hunting game, but the "combos" take so long and are so trivial that they are tiring. The game tries to be smart and funny. It's not smart and it is funny for about two minutes. And you have to listen to tutorials running parallel to rap music (with rap). Everything is wrong with this game.

    I haven't played No More Heroes but it looks so unattractive and has frequent loading times that I have no interest in trying. There are loads of games on the PS2 and Xbox that look better than this. And if the game can't compete at textures and whatnot then they should at least make sure that the animations look better than amateurish.

    If quality is a safe bet, then I will take it.
  • hahayou #24 2 years ago

    Terrible examples. I've got NMH and Madworld, they're fantastic stylistically but not good or innovative as far as gameplay goes. Actually "risky" but good games like Boom Blox and Wii Sports have sold well.

    I think that if those games show anything it's that critics will slap an 8 on anything that nods at postmodernism.
  • Deckard1 #25 2 years ago

    the reason hardcare games don't sell well on the wii, is because "hardcore" gamers know that the wiimote is a bit shit really, and games arn't particularly enjoyable to play with it.
  • StrayTaoist #26 2 years ago

    *sigh* The whole thing about there-is-more-shovelware-on-platform-X just shows you lot don't understand statistics (or PR, but that is a different thing. Get out of the echo chamber for a bit.)

    Here is something I did a while ago:

    [link url=http://fundin gterrorism.com/gamevalues/
    ]http://fundin gterrorism.com/gamevalues/
    [/link]

    See the shape? Anyone with any maths recognise it? And it goes across *all* systems. Sheesh.
  • TonyHarrison #27 2 years ago

    "The Wii...suffers from low software sales

    Is there actually any truth to this? The weekly charts (across the globe) have always suggested otherwise. I'd be surprised if the Wii attach rate was significantly lower than that of the PS3. "

    The three consoles are separated in attach rate terms by a tiny 1.2 games as revealed in the three companies end of year financial reports (highest is 8.8, lowest 7.6). When you read the articles about the Wii on various websites, and comments from readers, you always get the impression that the attach rates are vastly different, but it could not be further from the truth.

    What bemuses me the most about comments with regards to the Wii from people within the industry are they always come from companies that have had great success on the Wii. Sega have seen their highest software sales in a decade on Nintendo consoles, yet they came out and had a hissy fit when Madworld didn't sell that well. Of course the reality there is that Madworld was developed by Platinum Studios (formerly Clover), and that it was that developers best selling game until they released Bayonetta. But even that has only beaten Madworld by 100,000 or so sales in individual terms. By Sega's standards, Madworld was probably a disappointment, but Platinum were probably ecstatic at the sales, and that says it all about niche games by traditionally niche developers.

    Capcom are another one, they've had great success with their 'proper' hardcore games like Monster Hunter Tri, but they threw a similar hissy fit when Wii owners reacted to missing out on Resident Evil 5 by not buying their average rail shooters (Capcom were forced to change their story when Bionic Commando and Dark Void, two costly HD games that were pretty terrible in terms of reviews and sales, ate up all the profits they'd made on the Wii though). The sad thing about Monster Hunter is that pigheadedness of fans is putting a stop to it being even more successful. There are plenty of websites out there like this with people who love Monster Hunter but refuse to even look at Tri because it's on Wii. That kind of attitude is another major part of the problem, but nobody seems to want to talk about that.

    The latest hissy fit comes from Namco Bandai, as mentioned in the article, but the less said about their efforts on the Wii the better.

    Then there's all the developers who complain about their mediocre gaming experiences not selling as well as the brilliant Nintendo games do. The fact that their games are mediocre is apparently not the reason for lower sales. Apparently it's the audiences fault for noticing the difference..... Yeah. Good logic guys.

    The truth is that whenever these developers actually put in a serious effort with a Wii game, they more often than not reap the rewards, but I could literally count on one hand the number of times that they have put that effort in, and so it's left to Nintendo to deliver the goods, as they have with SMG2. Third parties are dreaming of making a game that good, but the sad truth is that 95% of them won't even try to do so, at least not on a Nintendo console anyway.
    Edited by 1 at 12/06/10 @ 16:19
  • Praetorianer #28 2 years ago

    95% aren't able to do so, even if they wanted to.

    @Agnates

    Good postings.
    Edited by 1 at 12/06/10 @ 17:10
  • My1stLoveJak #29 2 years ago

    I'm sorry Marvelous feels that way, but I was one of the people who hopped on board the second I heard about Little King's Story; I bought it as soon as it hit shelves. It's been a while since I've played that game, but I appreciated it for being something that I couldn't find anywhere else. About the time I stopped playing was when I beat a hard boss and only received a couple of coins...the side-quests (a lot of them) gave you very little upon completion, and I felt like my time was wasted.
    *I think I have one too many run on sentences, here, but it's a Saturday - I don't have time to edit!

    As for Madworld and NMH, I wasn't one of the people pulling for M rated games on the Wii. Blood and gore's great, but it shouldn't be the focal point of a game - I think both those games focused too much on displaying the most violence possible and making a game out of it.
  • Praetorianer #30 2 years ago

    Afair, the seal was invented after the Atari Shock and it should strengthen confidence on the part of the customers. Video game publishers flooded the market back then with unplayable software, e.g. the infamous E.T. for the Atari console. While it is true that the seal meant that the game had been checked and approved, it also meant that the game was produced by an official Nintendo licensee, and those licensees had to stick to certain rules. Back then Nintendo was quite rigid and had some strong licensing terms, one of them limiting the number of games per publisher, per year. This had been done in order to prevent a flood of extremely low quality software to the market. It was no seal of quality gameplaywise, that's correct.
  • sonicyoda #31 2 years ago

    Well I support the Wii. If you bother to look beneath the piles of mini-games you can find some superb games. For example: Zack and Wiki, Okami, MadWorld, House of the Dead Overkill, Guilty Gear Core, Klonoa, Let's Tap, Dead Space Extraction, Broken Sword Director's Cut, Sin and Punishment 2 etc. Sort it out Wii owners, use your GAMES console properly.
  • xandaca #32 2 years ago

    Name three non-Nintendo released games on the Wii are both within the mainstream genres (FPS, Sports, Racing) and have received the same amount of coverage in both advertising and press space as even an average-selling 360/PS3 game. Monster Hunter Tri is arguably the only one. If you want your game to sell millions, you've got to give consumers the impression that they need to own it. This is admittedly difficult on the Wii because the visuals will always look a generation behind the HD consoles, but big title games like Call of Duty and Resident Evil (despite being knock-offs) have easily passed the 1m mark on the console at full price.

    Is the market as big as on 360/PS3? Of course not, why would it be when no-one apart from Nintendo has put any effort into developing it? MadWorld is a five hour, black and white game. That wouldn't sell anywhere and even Bayonetta's individual console numbers aren't significantly better (about 100k-150k more). HOTD Overkill did over 600k, while No More Heroes is just under half a million. Even taking into account that about half of those sales were at heavily discounted prices, there is no way they didn't make money. Secondly, you could hardly call any of them mainstream. The failure of third-parties to sell big on the Wii is entirely their own responsibility for releasing niche games with zero backing and expecting GTA sales, as well as putting out endless quantities of hurried rubbish at the beginning of the console's lifespan. No consumer would invest after having been treated the way Wii gamers have been by third-parties, so the fact that the likes of MadWorld, NMH and HOTD got the numbers they did is not a failure, it's a bloody miracle. The worst part is that you know they'll do it all over again when the Wii's successor emerges.

    PS: And as great as they were, games like Deadly Creatures and Little King's Story would not sell big on any console. Great games, but terrible investments. Rant over.
  • Rens11 #33 2 years ago

    @ Essien..... its not the size, its what you do with it! ;)
  • One_Vurfed_Gwrx #34 2 years ago

    I also find it odd to see all the comments about the lack of good games on the Wii when I probably have twice as many Wii as 360 games (approximately 60 to 30 I think) and there are more games I currently want to buy on Wii than 360 that I haven't purchased yet. I have an HDTV and I do enjoy the HD game son the 360, but there are more games that appeal to me on the Wii (which also looks fine to me on my plasma despite being upscaled). PS3 also has few games I particularly want, so I haven't bought a machine yet despite owning half a dozen games for it, but even if I bought one there'd probably only be another half a dozen current games I'd buy on top of my already purchased ones. I suppose the fact that I long ago became jaded with the FPS genre may have something to do with the lower amount of HD games I'd want, but I still buy the odd one on PC as I prefer playing them that way.

    It is unfortunate that the niche games often don't sell well but with the Marvelous games and other niche titles the high-street retailers seem to have issues with stocking them so the average consumer probably doesn't even realise they exist so couldn't make an impulse purchase. And as said about the shovelware every market leader has tons of it, just look at the official numbers of released titles on PS1 and PS2 to see this (I recall they are viewable on Sony's website somewhere).

    [edit] With specific regards to No More Heroes the whole censorship issue in Europe gave the game a lot of negative press and encouraged more savvy buyers to import from the Us instead. Can't have helped the sales.
    Edited by 1 at 12/06/10 @ 21:02
  • FenderMaster #35 2 years ago

    I can't speak for anyone but mysef, so thats what I'll do.

    I didn't buy NMH because i have a PS3, and compared to PS3 games, it looks inferior, sound inferior, and by many reviews accounts, is a bit of a mess, and quite repetitive. I hear it's an acquired taste, with flashes of brilliance. But when I compare it to PS3 titles in the genre that look way better, sound way better, are more consistant, longer, and generally more polished. It doesn't hurt that theyare in reality, exactly the same price in most shops. I feel like I'm paying more than I should, considering it is essentially, last gen, 2004 quality software being released in 2009/2010. I wouldn't mind paying a reduced price given that it's not cutting edge, and is a flawed, but interesting game. ( i also didn't like the european censorship, very bizarre...)

    MadWorld was essentially a 5 hour long black and white scrolling beat-em up with tonnes of gore. The type of title I might expect to see on PSN for 15 Euro's, but I'm not paying 50 Euro for a five hour long game, and scrolling beat em ups haven't been the flavour du jour for quite some time.

    Essentially, with Wii titles, I feel like i'm getting less bang for my buck, there isn't a significant price difference between Wii and PS3 titles, but there is a significant difference in graphics, sound, game length, polish, features (online multi player?), for me, it's percieved lower value of Wii titles compared to the better looking and more full featured HD games.

    My last complaint, is that almost all Wii games have waggle in there somewhere, inclding NMH, and MadWorld. I tried motion controls, and came to the conclusion long ago, that i don't like waggle. I'm playing SMG2 right now, and as much as I love it, i hate the waggle for spinning, activating power ups, activating stars etc, it just seems wooly and imprecise.

    Little Kings Story is a great game, but who was the target market? It's kind of a strategy game, which is more of an adult market, but it looks like a kids game, and kids don't like strategy. Again, i could see people taking a chance on it on PSN or XBL, but a title like that that might confuse the market, being released in shops for the same prices as PS3/360 titles, is going to have a hard time... It's a shame because it is a wonderful title...
    Edited by 1 at 12/06/10 @ 21:31
  • Pulsar_t #36 2 years ago

    Most of these comments are anecdotes that don't relate to the original article in the slightest.
  • alcides #37 2 years ago

    Or maybe Nintendo had been on the way out with the N64 ans Gamecube and really just survived thanks to strong IPs, meaning gamers want a Nintendo plateform for Nintendo software.

    Plus I got the message perfectly right with Nintendo's Wii : we'll make cheap games and charge just as much. Suckers will still give us their money.

    Then when I got a Wii in 2006 (day one), I got disappointed. Zelda disappointed me. I felt I had to invest in a console just to play a gamecube game that bore me for some reason. In fact I could list every single aspect of the game, I would harly like one of them. I hated it. It's personal.

    Then I saw all the COSTS that multiplayer induced! Then I saw batteries...

    It's Nintendo. It's nintendo's fault if publishers don't make money with the Wii!!!! Nintendo strip players of every single penny!
    Plus I hate the Wii-something games, I REALLY DO!!

    Nintendo's practice of stalling games to make room for what they want you to buy at a certain time, in a certain order, I found disgusting. I bought the Wii for the one game that I wanted : Metroid Prime 3, which didn't make it for launch. I got tricked into buying what felt like an embarrassing package without the games I wanted, so I sold it.

    When I bought another one, Metroid 3 felt DATED, although still good. Crystal Bearers is a shit game, like square doesn't care to soil their fanbase and franchise. Only NSMBWii and Mario Galaxy 2 made me glad I bought one again.

    Online on Wii is a joke, I wouldn't let someone crap in my mouth, and I will never, ever use friend codes, wich is a problem for my interest in games on a plateform that makes them more or less standard. Animal Crossing is a shameless port of the DS version, if you need one more reason I'm sick with the Wii.
    God there are SO many reason this console blows, of course you only buy Nintendo games, they are the only ones - potentially - worth your while - potentially! Mario Party was worst than having to attend church when you are convinced atheist. I was fuming and resented my friends for making me go through that crap.

    I'd rather feed my HD capable 400€ PS3 with good, innovative titles. Innovation is also on HD consoles, the Wii doesn't have it all. Waggle fest replacing the simple press of a button isn't innovation.
    Edited by 2 at 12/06/10 @ 23:00
  • secombe #38 2 years ago

    Refarding the media not taking the Wii seriously, if we're talking specialist media then unfortunately it's inevitable really.

    Take Mario Galaxy 2 for example, it's review score average is putting it up there as one of the best games ever, and certainly of this generation...yet relatively speaking it doesn't seem to be generating a great deal of discussion, and will no doubt be ignored by many. The media survives on ad revenue, and the gaming press in particular know that the Wii does not generate traffic/sales in anything like the numbers that the PS360 commands.
  • Praetorianer #39 2 years ago

    @alcides

    You are the type of guy who deserves the next 20 MW, GoW and Halo installments on the next 2 console generations. No offense.
    Edited by 1 at 12/06/10 @ 23:16
  • FenderMaster #40 2 years ago

    The thing is, GoW, Halo and MW are actually better games, with more value for money and content than NMH and MadWorld..., Zelda TP was disappointing, AC was a barely updated DS port of a GC port ofan N64 title, and Metroid Prime 3, though good, wasn't a great game like the first one...

    Sometimes it's harder to justify the price tag on Wii titles, like ports of several year old PS2 games (Okami, RE4, Bully etc), light gun/rail shooter titles (Dead Space, RE titles), niche point and click adventures like Zack and Wiki or Broken Sword, souped up DS titles like Animal Crossing or Trauma Centre... I don't know.... these weren't the titles i envisioned playing back in November 2006, and in the mean time most of us have grown to loath waggle controls taging the presion button press and making it imprecise...

    With the exception of Monster Hunter, most big Wii exclusives haven't really been very polished, or often any good. Maybe The Conduit sucked maybe NMH and MadWorld weren't worth €50, maybe Boom Blox jenga like appeal isn't what I look for in a game...

    The jury on whether high quality third party, polished Wii titles with a good amount of content can sell well, is stil out, simply because there has been so few.

    At the moment it's too hard to tell whether No More Heroes, MadWorld, and all those othe so called saviours of the Wii hardcore audience, aren't selling because theres no market, or aren't selling because of their.... debatable quality...
  • trubadman #41 2 years ago

    A nice article, it allowed the Wii to be criticised with facts!!
  • rprince #42 2 years ago

    I don't understand why we'll regret it. I'd much rather live in the digital future with decently priced, interesting games. These "boxed franchise games" all think they have the right to retail for £30 whether in the shop or on the digital store, and I'm quite happy not to buy them in either.
  • Mayhem64 #43 2 years ago

    I was going to write a bunch of stuff about how much of what was said seemed partly misguided, but Agnates got there first and hence his (I assume his here!) responses get the double plus clicks from me.

    Vast amounts of shovelware never hurt the first two Playstation consoles. The difference is that Sony's hype machine managed to gloss over that and there were tons of games also available for supposed "hardcore" gamers, especially RPGs. There is less choice in the NMH/Mad World/Manhunt 2 categories on the Wii by comparison, and perhaps that's why the amount of crap games is being foisted as one of its weak points when it fails to usually get mentioned in regards to Sony's machines.

    Speaking of RPGs though... is it my imagination or do they seem to be falling out of favour gradually with developers? They seem to be far less proliferate this gen compared to the last three...
  • TheRealBadabing #44 2 years ago

    @rprince:
    Easy tiger, when we all go digital do you really think MS/Sony/Nintendo will allow any competition on their platforms? Even now, the only place you can download stuff for your console is from the respective service.

    There is no bright future for anyone except publishers and platform holders if we only have one distribution channel.

    /bit off topic
    Edited by 1 at 13/06/10 @ 01:53
  • alcides #45 2 years ago

    @praetorianer:

    I never played halo or MW, and I don't like God of War (Gears of War? = don't know don't care)
    You don't know me. I don't have an Xbox. My favourite game on PS3 is Wipeout HD Fury. Then LBP. Then Burnout Paradise. Then Uncharted 1.

    Also I was precisely of the bunch who DID buy wii games, which invalidates your point, if there was ever one. I ever went as far as to change my mind about a console I had previously despised and tossed, to give a chance to that kind of software. I know my stuff. I am entitled to my opinion.

    You are sharing no opinion, and don't take it too hard either, but you are simply a waste of forum space.
    Edited by 1 at 13/06/10 @ 02:33
  • Grayvern #46 2 years ago

    There is nothing wrong with not getting along with motion control or any control scheme. If they released games on the psn that had texture quality a lot less that PS3 game but were native 720 and therefore didn't give me headaches I would gladly buy them. I agree with the uglier games sentiment.

    In terms of supporting innovation or original Ip its not as if big companies don't also kick those kind of things out too. But it's not as if I'm going to buy madworld to support innovation when I don't like the premise of the game.
  • mathare92 #47 2 years ago

    Great article Rob, really got me thinking.
  • TonyHarrison #48 2 years ago

    "95% aren't able to do so, even if they wanted to."

    You have a fair point there, but it would still be nice to see more of them try, even if all of them can't. After all, what's the bigger risk? Developing a Wii game like No More Heroes, which could be done relatively cheaply, or going for an HD game, which would require a much bigger budget?

    Chances are, if the Wii game failed, a small dev studio could live to try again, but they couldn't if the HD game failed.
  • Chazmeister #49 2 years ago

    I don't think the "Licensed by Nintendo" seal has ever really been a hall mark of quality control. Even back when I had my SNES the amount of crap titles that made it onto the system carrying that label was still quite considerable, Pit Fighter anyone?

    As for the Wii most of the folks I know that own one have just a tiny clutch of games for it, mostly content to just bring out Wii Sports when ever the friends or relatives pop round for a drink. With the exception of the odd few people I know that play Mario Galaxy, everyone else I know just treats the Wii like a party game machine, going back to their laptops, PC's, PS3's and 360 for their "normal" gaming consumption.
  • KnuckleSandwich #50 2 years ago

    What a fantastic article, good read.

    The reason why the so called “core demographic” doesn’t have any interest in the Wii, is because of the first two years of the system. While Nintendo titles gained a lot of praise for the likes of Twilight Princess, Galaxy, Prime 3 or Brawl to name a few examples, other software offerings were very weak. I’m not only blaming third parties btw: Nintendo made its fair share of mistakes, but third parties have to take their responsibility as well. I mean, they too are responsible for the current situation on Wii and in the process they drove the “core demographic” towards the HD twins. All the big names and “big ambitious” projects were already announced for 360 or PS3: if you bought a Wii, you just got one because “only the Nintendo titles were the only interesting ones” Thanks to this fantastic display of hivemind thinking, third parties actually started to believe this. Plus, they thought the Wii was a fad.

    And when the Wii finally got some awesome games, there is always something wrong with it. In a way it can’t hit the mass market I mean. Sure, MadWorld and No More Heroes are fine games. (I prefer the latter) But analysts, publishers, developers and the press need to understand that these types of games aren’t for anyone. Even if they are games more targeted to the west, they are way to Japanese to attract a decent following in the west. And that’s just one of the problems Wii software faces. In the end, the majority of good titles on Wii just aren’t known by the gaming public. It’s mostly a mix of lack interest from the “core demographic” and the publisher of title x just throwing it into stores. I own 47 Wii titles and I’m certain of it that at least half them are unknown to the general public. I blame Nintendo and third parties for this.

    Which is sad. I mean, I like Klonoa for instance. But when did anyone care about Klonoa? Even on the Playstation and GBA platforms the franchise was never a success. Silent Hill Shattered Memories is one of the best games I played this generation, but Konami only seems to care for Metal Gear these days. Dead Space Extraction might be railshooter, but it still is a good Dead Space experience. Or what about A Boy and his Blob? Great platform puzzler, but no one cares. And that’s just four titles. Still, while these titles might be excellent, I think the general public (including that core demographic) got burned in general by these publishers due to purchasing a very bad title or two during the Wii’s first three years. And yes, publishers like Majesco, Konami and Bandai-Namco released a lot of rubbish the last couple of years. In the end, if the public decides to stick with Nintendo’s own software, who can blame them?
  • Raiko101 #51 2 years ago

    With games like MadWorld and No More Heroes I can't even see a technical advantage for them being on the PS3 or 360, other than the obvious graphical leap, which will simply cost too much for some developers. I still don't see why people want that sort of thing when both games look great on the Wii.

    I'm not to sure why i'm bothering to try and make a point out of all this. Since buying a Wii, my gaming tastes have started differing from most of my mates. I feel out of touch with common gamer opinion, even though I play games as much as ever.
  • Grayvern #52 2 years ago

    My argument with all this is basically, look at god of war collection. PS2 Era art assets converted to native 720p look better than native 420p games with far better assets on Wii. There's no reason that games with similar quality assets and crazy ideas couldn't be run on other consoles.

    And I've said this many times before the effects of fuzziness or bluriness or odd scaling effects can give me eye strain headaches.

    Innovation isn't engendered by controls controls only ever act as a barrier.

    And finally it isn't fair to ignore the fact that innovation does come from big companies as well. Think about the importance of a game like Mass Effect 2 for wider games the linking of good gameplay with story and choice.
  • Stuz359 #53 2 years ago

    There is just as much average crap released on the 360 and PS3, but they are 'hardcore' games so no one notices.
  • Captain_Jono #54 2 years ago

    When the Wii appeared on the market, with its growing install base and lower cost of development, it looked like a golden era for publishers and developers. Several years on and the Wii family turned out to mean Wii Fit, Wii Sports Resort and Big Brain Academy, with third party developments left gathering dust.
  • thesombrerokid #55 2 years ago

    articles from console gamers read like something from 10 years ago to pc gamers, boxed sales are long dead and buried on that platform.

    the 'quality games' on the wii that failed, failed because they were average games in a see of filth, they simply weren't good enough, if they were as good as super mario galaxy then wii owners would've bought them, they are also too japanese which is a niche market these days.