Rockstar upset by Manhunt ban News

Not particularly in favour of censorship, but Rockstar are bl**dy idiots to keep flogging this dead horse. Not a particularly good game (MH1), and now with added Hi Def Gorn for extra Daily Express baiting, which might sell a few import copies, but if they get the BBFC fired up, other, decent games (e.g. GTA) might be in trouble. And it's just another embarrassing juvenile violence-a-thon to drag games back into the dark ages. Not a chance of seeing it down under, thanks to having no R18 for games. Good riddence, hope they lose a ton of money on it, and go back to polishing GTA.

Oh... Fir
/axe to the head

Not surprised and, for the first time since probably forever, I don't have issue with the game's banning. Seems like a glorified playable version of Hostel, another piece of entertainment which was full of excessive violence developed purely to push the boundaries.

As a libertarian, I'm strongly opposed to all forms of state censorship, and I challenge anyone to disagree.

PS Manhunt rocks!

FREEEEEEEDOOOOOM!!!!!!!!!!

this is madness!!

MinuteMan_X you are wrong. I challange you to prove otherwise!

Note: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't BBFC private as opposed to state owned?

3william56: Rockstar did not make Manhunt 2 for any HighDef console. In fact they focused on the popular consoles.

Who do you trust? hubba hubba hubba. who do you trust?

I do have an issue on this ban, not because I wanted to play the game (I am 29 btw) but rather on general principle. Why do they allow movies like SAW, Hannibal Rising or Zodiac to be shown while they ban movies because they contain the same things? I have never been revolted by any video game in the way I have been by these movies and yet they can be bought or rented while some games are banned.

The adult consumers who would play this game fully understand that it is fictional interactive entertainment and nothing more."

Except for the one random psycho who always lets the side down... grrr

@MinuteMan_X

We can't argue about censorship without considering stuff that is banned already. Let's face it, virtually all of us (I hope) would say that all forms of child porn should be banned from any kind of distribution - so a line in the sand already exists, whether we like it or not.

The question is not should there be censorship, but rather should Manhunt (and for that matter Saw/Hostel etc.) be censored.

Crying all the way to the bank, once they eventually do get a certificate, surely.

Let's be serious, Manhunt 2 must've been pretty relentless in needless killing and voilence for the BBFC to ban it outright, I mean it's not like they're renowned for banning any old thing, and I actually think they're quite easy going as a whole, how some of the films out there pass for a 12a or 15 I'll never know.
Terminator 3 always springs to mind, 12a rating, yet it features an arm right through a friggin chest in gory close up detail.
And anyway why would you want to play a game where all you do is kill humans in a variety of different, gruesome ways, with no other variation in gameplay. How is that enjoyable, or a good way to pass any spare time?

@attacanteblue

Isn't that line drawn to protect children though. Should animated child porn be banned?

Also, surprise, surprise - the Irish censor banned the game too.

Although I'm a lurker, I'll make an exception and put a couple of points:

Point 1 - Movies are passive by nature while games are active.
Point 2 - Censorship is ALWAYS bad and you're against it, right? Then I suppose you're also against censoring child porn then?
Point 3 - "I don't need to be told what i should or shouldn't be playing as I'm an adult and can decide that for myself" - The response to which is: You may be capable of deciding what games you deem appropriate for you to play. I assume that you're a sane and healthy adult above the age of 18. Therefore it is indeed unfortunate that you're caught up in the crossfire of this problematic but real issue between politics and popular opinion. Just like it is unfortunate if, being the civilian that you are, happen to die during a war simply because the enemy forces "made a mistake" and thought that your house was a military bunker (Thus the term "casualty of war").

Although i do sympathize with the people that will be affected by this ban; it needs to be said that the very egocentric nature of these people is the biggest pitfall of both their arguments and opinions. Thus, you guys would make for poor-to-average politicians incapable of making your voices effectively heard in public.

To frod:

1- "So?"? I guess you win that argument for sure!

2- Strawman you say? So i didn't make a point?

3- Exactly

I'm sure it was even news on Eurogamer that not long ago more reasonable studies have shown that exactly because you are interacting with it, you dont really get to forget it's all just a game.

Whats this nonsense about child porn? Child porn is illegal and punishable. Playing games is not.

@ChimneyBug - Its an easy argument for the "Daily Mail" crew to use.

What I dont understand is that murder is illegal. So why not then ban all games that allow you to willfully kill someone.

Rockstar have been trying to push the envelope with regards to violence for many years now. Seems like, for some people, they've finally crossed the line. And I can't say I'm sad about that.

Child porn is censorship. Either you agree or disagree with censorship. If you don't agree with censorship whatsoever then admit that watching child porn can be a normal healthy activity to participate in. Otherwise, if you do realize that this in not the ideal world where everyone has had a similar ideal upbringing and because of that censorship needs to be enforced from time to time, then we are all square and on the same page. And that realization would quickly turn this thread into a moral and a philosophical debate.

@Segnit - It is illegal. As is murder. Your point is......

Its a real poor taste argument. Sad really.

Let me be frank... although you guys are the hardcore gamers... you are in fact also the small fish. Harsh but hey... it's only true.

Edit: To lennon - i wasn't talking about the law as I'm sure that you've already noticed.

what are you on about? Child porn is not censorship. Censorship of child porn is censorship and child porn isnt censored, its banned, illegal, completely disallowed. In a vaguely relative sense, things that are illegal are therefore being censored, but you cannot compare censorship of a legal medium to the complete censorship of an illegal medium, thats just daft.

Banned in Ireland too, though Eurogamer hasn't reported it.

r* are throwing the gauntlet, twice, and are upset by the reaction? reminds me of the gauntlet scene in robin hood: men in tights :)

Segnit, you're dangerously close to saying something you may very well regret. Child porn is not about censorship, it is a very serious criminal act and has no part in this discussion. Please stop using it as a comparison no matter what your agenda may be as such a comparison is not a valid one and in very poor taste.

Attempting to portray child pornography merely as an censorship issue not only undermines the gravity of such a crime but will also undeniably cast a very bad light on anything you have to say here.

the BBFC themselves a few weeks ago said that games were LESS harmful, because of their interactivity, than films.

ChimneyBug, you did indeed correct me, so that's a positive step for sure.

In other words, banning child pornography by law was an effort to weed out the problem. When they do crack down on child porn, every country censors the images in their news. So yes it's banned and yes it's censored.

So in essence, agreeing with 1 ban while disagreeing with another makes your way of thinking an opinion rather then fact.

Reality check: The notion that Manhunt 2 shouldn't be banned is an unpopular opinion among the masses. Likewise one can argue that it is the unideal opinion just like a "pro child porn" view is an unideal opinion according to me and the vast majority of people on this planet.

@Gene
"this is madness!!"

Madness?

This... Is... ENGLAND!!!

"Except for the one random psycho who always lets the side down... grrr"

Irrelevant - a random psycho in america shot five people to death over a period of several months because his neighbour's dog told him to. We don't ban dogs because of nutcases. Further no actual act of murder has yet to be directly linked to any videogame. The attempts to do so with the original Manhunt went awry when it was revealed that killer hadn't played the game it was the victim. And the only person suggesting a link between the game and killing was the stupid bitch who let her son play it.

"Let's face it, virtually all of us (I hope) would say that all forms of child porn should be banned from any kind of distribution - so a line in the sand already exists, whether we like it or not."

Not actually true. Currently* the creation and distribution of artificial (ie drawn, computer generated, textual) pornography involving minors is legal and frankly should remain so. We limit child pornography for the same reason we wouldn't allow a film to be distributed that showed actual rape or murder for entertainment purposes. What is illegal isn't the film itself it's the actions that went into creating it and the profiting from those actions that is illegal. If somebody could show that the making of manhunt involved killing actual people rather than collections of pixels I would support a ban.

*Currently - the bloody government does currently have legislative plans to criminalise such works in the near future. I'm unsure of how far along these plans are progressing as it only affects me one area - namely the purchase of Alan Moore's book Lost Girls. Since the owning of this would be illegal under the new legislation I'm going to have to wait until I get the hell out of this crappy censorship driven country before I can read it,if I'd already bought it I'd pay more attention to when the law changes to ensure I'd gotten rid of it before the government decided what I could and couldn't read.

"And anyway why would you want to play a game where all you do is kill humans in a variety of different, gruesome ways, with no other variation in gameplay. How is that enjoyable, or a good way to pass any spare time?"

Tetris? All you do is makes blocks fit into lines. No other variation. I have no idea how many hours I've lost to doing the most repetitive actions imaginable since that game came out. Reduce a game to it's absolute bare bones and it will almost always seem stupid. Actually Manhunt 2 will feature I high level of sneaking, tactical movements to enable the environment to work to your advantage etc.

"Thus, you guys would make for poor-to-average politicians incapable of making your voices effectively heard in public."

Given your response to protest 3 I agree. We'd appeal to responsibility, personal choice and liberty rather than pandering to "I don't like it so it must be banned" crowd.

"Seems like, for some people, they've finally crossed the line. And I can't say I'm sad about that."

Neither am I. What I'm sad about is the idea that my entertainment habits and choices should be limited by popular opinion as an adult to the same degree they were limited and restricted when I was a child.

@attacanteblue
"Let's face it, virtually all of us (I hope) would say that all forms of child porn should be banned from any kind of distribution"

Sorry don't want to get involved, but it is a slightly different case however. A movie of a child in sexual poses would be illegal, and therefore censored.

I think the right analogy would be to say, would you approve of virtual child porn?

Carry on...

EDIT: Whoops got to the party REALLY late...

too much mind polution - there has to be limits we live in a changing environment so limits change but generally this a good move.
besides theres a few games coming up i've kinda gone off like bioshock certain aspects not nice, nasty even but there i vote with me wallet

My point number 2 still stands and anyone to only raise that point is obviously trying to derail this argument into something wrong. Misinterpreting my "point 2" will seriously devalue you as a human.

All 3 arguments still stand I'm afraid. And i still sympathize with the pro Manhunt 2 gang. But I've mentioned it all in my 2nd post on this topic

Edit:
Even though i can't say i agree with Chaote-Imagicka on everything he said (though i have to admit that he was pretty spot on), he definitely is a cut above the rest on his debating skills.

"the BBFC should only exist to rate films. Anything hardcore should be R18, nothing should be banned."

Unfortunately it's not up to you to make that decision. The BBFC bases its rules on continual surveys of public opinion, and this implies that the majority of the viewing public would be upset or offended by the content of this game.

Here are some extracts from the BBFC's website for your edification, regarding the criteria they use:

- is the material in conflict with the law?
- is the material, at the age group concerned, likely to be harmful?
- is the material, at the age group concerned, clearly unacceptable to broad public opinion? (It is on this ground, for example, that the Board intervenes in respect of language. This ground also applies at '18', although here it is balanced against the public expectation that adults should be free to choose their entertainment, within the law.)
---
"The Board will attempt to deal with films, videos or DVDs which are unacceptable at any category through intervention such as making cuts or requiring the addition of warning captions. If this is not possible or not acceptable to the distributor, works may be refused classification altogether. ‘Taboo’ themes are acceptable, but not if their treatment is likely to encourage harm to viewers or, through their behaviour, to society."
---
The website also lists "graphic rape or torture" and "sadistic violence and terrorisation" as major points of concern.

Also, an interesting blog post that weighs up both sides of the argument: http://blogs.pcworld.com/gameon/archives...

"... While we respect the authority of the classification board and will abide by the rules..."

What, no appeal then Rockstar?

Good idea.

@MinuteMan_X

Ooh, its like a red rag to a bull :)

You seem to be challenging people to disagree with the fact that you oppose censorship. I wouldn't dream of doing such a thing. What I think you are actually challenging us to do is find flaws in your beliefs.

Lets be clear right from the off, the act is utterly futile as I have no doubt your beliefs are as firm as the Pope's. And whether you change your mind at some point in your life (as is likely), its not going to happen here in a spirit of "them and us" forum discussion.

But I do like a good chit chat, especially when faced with such an assured (and therefore hopefully informed) point of view.

So, first off humour me with a definition of "libertarianism" as you live it.

Also, you say you oppose state censorship, does that mean personal censorship (a parent restricting the access of the own child) is ok? If so, what about community censorship (a school restricting the access of its pupils for example)? What I really asking is, at what point does the "individual" end the "state" begin?

:)

How is killing polygon people and raping kids even remotely the same thing?

@dcangel

+3 for taking on the mantel of presenting actual factual information :)

@SimonM7

They are of course not remotely the same thing. That isn't the point. I call strawman on you (wiki it).

"Misinterpreting my "point 2" will seriously devalue you as a human"

Eh?

Whats wrong with not being able to buy a game from some major retailer? Buy it elsewhere. You wont be persecuted just for owning it.

Oh, and thats not state censorship, more like corporate censorship.

>Faceman:
>"Misinterpreting my "point 2" will seriously devalue you as a human"
>
>Eh?


Some people take it that i was condoning that act. Sad but true.

kangarootoo: Well, the debate seems to be losing touch with reality, so it seemed necessary. :)

Just for the record, I'm not necessarily in favour of censorship either, but very little is really known about the long-term psychological effects of video games (or, for that matter, movies and TV), and it seems to me that it is more socially responsible to err on the side of caution in certain cases.

Incidentally, is anyone any the wiser as to whether Rockstar will be appealing the decision? That is their lawful right, after all. If they don't appeal, it would raise some interesting questions.

I think they will appeal their "AO" rating in the states. At least that's how i feel. Who knows time will tell.

Next, ban Edgar Allen Poe!









(I liked Manhunt very much)

@Sofalover

"What if those surveys are taken in a twee Dorset village? I have never been surveyed have you? "

Oh ffs. You don't know how the surveys are conducted, so you start presented grossly distorted possibilities that are of course easy to attack. I've never been polled for TV viewing figures, but I don't doubt its a very encompassing process.

"It actually makes me feel sick to think of these middle class twats sat in a viewing room judging what "ordinary people" are capable of handling,"

They DON'T. They bloody DON'T! jesus, its like you are pretending to be dense and I know you aren't really). How are you still unable to grasp this?

They are normal people, and they don't "decide" what we get to see. They follow the rules laid out for them, rules which are created by surveyihng a huge number of people from all walks of life.

What you seem to be suggesting is that you don't like anyone controlling your life in any way. Well my response to that is the same as it was on every other thread on this subject. If you CHOOSE to live in society, you CHOOSE to be governed by laws that may not suit you. You choose it to be that way!

At any point in your life you can row a boat out into the middle of the ocean and I guarantee you will have all the freedom you can eat. And then all the middle class cunts can rule themselves inot oblivion, leaving you to chuckle away to yourself as the sharks start to circle.

AFAIK - the laws against child porn even prohibit the *simulation* of child pornography - i.e. no illegal act needs to have been committed in the production of the pictures. "Pretending" an illegal act has taken place is enough to fall foul of the law. This is censorship.

(Clarification is welcome - I'm not going to start looking into this sort of thing at work!)

Another minor point is that in the majority of horror films mentioned you are (usually) expected to empathise with the victims. Not so in this case.

Having said that - I'm really not sure about banning stuff - this game isn't really my sort of thing - but I'm uncomfortable about telling other people what they should or shouldn't watch/play/read.

Ultimately, a big "so what" (gamers can be so selfish) a few gamers are prevented from playing at murder - and rockstar have found that using controversy as PR can come back to bite you.

kangarootoo, I admire your effort to show and correct some of Sofalover's miscalculated statements but i really think that he made his point clear. He wont budge and had already made up his mind a long time back.

OK for those of you whining about how games are always getting a rough deal compared to movies the BBFC have banned exactly ONE game. Manhunt2. Yes 10 years ago they initially refused a rating to the full version of Carmageddon (it was released in an edited form rated 15) but when SCI appealed to the BBFC the BBFC allowed the full game to be released and the BBFC modified their criteria. Also for those of you repeatedly asking how is Manhunt 2 different from Hostel 2, American Psycho, Gears of War or whatever it is quite clear from the BBFCs statement that the answer is CONTEXT. The BBFC won't ban a game/movie because it has too much sex/violence/swearing it is the context that these are set in, and even then it will suggest cutting or editing to make it acceptable. This why the rape scene in Perfect Blue passes without issue but the rape scene in Urotsikadoji (Legend of the Overfiend) does not. In the former the scene it is made clear that it isn't a real rape and everyone feels guilty about it, in the latter the girl appears to enjoy it which was deemed entirly unacceptable and hence edited to avoid this. Incidently the scene has been shown on british television as it was discussed it from a purely academic context not as part of a (pretty flimsy) story.

So if any movie or game sees the hero (as opposed to the protagonist) systimatically torture humans for personal gratification without consequence or respite then you can expect it to be banned. Likewise I'm sure other games that have already been produced and are freely available in Japan (where I used to live) should be banned in the UK.

However compelling the ground for interference is, it has to take into account the concept of *proportionality*. This concept ensures that such intervention must not be the “sledgehammer to crack a nut” and must manifest itself as the least amount of interference to reach a just result.


Shouldn't the 18 rating stop the product being sold to children?

If not, due to a contrary argument that it does not work – then why do we have it at all?