"Rockstar Spouse" attacks dev conditions

By Tom Bramwell Published 11 January, 2010

San Diego operation under anonymous fire.

An individual who claims to represent the wives of Rockstar San Diego staff has claimed that the studio is running its employees into the ground.

Blogging on Gamasutra, "Rockstar Spouse" claimed that conditions at the studio have been in decline for nearly a year, with employees expected to work 12-hour days, including Saturdays, while overtime and holiday time have been cut and pay-rises have barely covered inflation.

The writer also claimed that employees at the studio, which is currently working on Red Dead Redemption for PS3 and Xbox 360, are treated shabbily if they book time off, and misled about when the so-called 'crunch' conditions will let up.

The original post is followed by several anonymous responses, claiming to be from other individuals who work for Rockstar San Diego, which seem to verify its contents, although nobody from the studio had contributed under a real name at the time of writing.

We've contacted Rockstar for comment.

The claims - and the "Rockstar Spouse" pseudonym - echo the famous ea_spouse LiveJournal post from 2004, in which a disgruntled wife of an EA employee went off on one about crunch periods and laid into then-CEO Larry Probst for what she saw as EA's inhumane treatment of its employees.

Picture of Tom.

About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

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Comments (69) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Goffee #1 2 years ago

    Ahh, gone are the days, I guess, when you could just quit and launch your own start-up - a shame none of the venture capital thrown at twittish-web companies heads to games devs these days.

  • dominalien #2 2 years ago

    This is pretty regular stuff. Of course it's like this.

  • Vice.Destroyer #3 2 years ago

    It's a strange one. I don't know whether I should sympathise or point out that 12-hour working days are unfortunately normal for people with certain levels of responsibility. Am I right in thinking that devs are on something in the region of $85,000 and above? Or am I not living in the real world and these guys should expect to only work 9-5 shifts and that is that?

  • Vroom #4 2 years ago

    Didn't the EA guys get over 16 Million in overtime in the end?

    Still I'm not sure I have too much sympathy. You should know what you're getting youself into.

  • PearOfAnguish #5 2 years ago

    I'm sure it's a terrible thing, but it's hard to see what point they're trying to make as that post is so badly written.
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/10 @ 09:12

  • FladgeMangle #6 2 years ago

    Cloud cuckoo land Vice.Destroyer.

    Development studio managers and executive producers may be on that sort of salary but it's typically less than half for those on the shop floor. The myth that all games developers are loaded and pampered is frankly insulting the all the people who work their arses off for very little return.

  • citizenHUNTER #7 2 years ago

    Exactly ViceDestroyer. Doesn't sound too bad to me when taken into consideration what they'll be earning, above a lot of other peoples salaries. I do empathise but they certainly can't moan about having it tougher than many many other people. What she described sounds just like any other company these days no matter what sector you're in. Well apart from being someone higher up in any kind of bank. (c#*ts)

  • photoboy #8 2 years ago

    Jesus, I tried to read their blog post, but it's like someone has gone through it with a thesaurus and replaced every single word with a more poncey one to try and sound clever. And do they suggest there is a full time masseuse in the offices??

    I sympathise with the families, but this is the reality of games development. It's been like this for years now. You get a fairly lazy early period and then a frantic crunch period to get things finished in time. As we know Red Dead Redemption was due to be released late last year and was apparently delayed to avoid Modern Warfare 2. If they're still in crunch mode that either means they were going to miss the deadline by a mile anyway, or they've decided to use the extra time to add new features to the game and they're rushing to get them finished.

    The wives shouldn't complain too much, given the current climate if the game tanks I can see Take Two closing the studio to save costs, so it's in their best interests for the game to be as polished as possible.

  • optimusprym8 #9 2 years ago

    I expect it's all true. For those of you saying "tough you get paid well" the truth is you don't. It's easy to sit in EU and call people crybabies in the US when we have employment law protecting the employee rather than the employer. US companies typically have low levels of holiday allowance, no sick benefits and encourage a environment where no-one shares information for fear of weakening their position within the company. I for one would never work in the US for a games company.

  • Quint2020 #10 2 years ago

    Isn't this sort of thing standard fare in the Game Industry? Especially as a release date draws near.

    I'm not saying it should be like that but surely as a developer you know what you're getting yourself in to?

  • ardamillo #11 2 years ago

    From the comments:
    "The saddest part of the above is that Red Dead Redemption (the game the entire studio is working on) is an organic disaster of the most epic proportions. The pain just might be worth it for everyone if the work was worldclass and they could proudly place it on their resumes as they walk away from that mess. Sadly, it is anything but, and Bitter is correct mismanagement up and down the Rockstar chain is the direct cause. Red Dead Revolver 2: Dead On Arrival. "

    Yikes!
    Edit: possibly a bitter ex-employee
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/10 @ 09:47

  • Spekingur #12 2 years ago

    So, people working on Red Dead Redemption aren't able to put it on the resumes?

  • TheBoyChris #13 2 years ago

    I'm sorry, but if you're working 12 hour days for 6 days a week to finish the game it means you've not time managed properly. For those who think it's "ok" to force employees to work this way, that kind of thinking is outdated and frankly appalling. At our company we expressly try to avoid overtime to keep our staff and their families safe - last thing we need is our most talented bunch of people burning out and ending up leaving because of stress.

    This is not the way game dev should be - it should be run like any other business or project, and it shouldn't include mandatory crunch times.
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/10 @ 09:58

  • JahB #14 2 years ago

    welcome to the games industry. if you're unhappy about the conditions, tough luck, cause there's always somebody that will do your job without complaining about the hours.

  • Jesus: Action Figure #15 2 years ago

    @TheBoyChris
    Bang on.
    I can't believe the shit other people are talking here.
    You lot obviously don't *work* in the industry.
    FFS

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #16 2 years ago

    I haven't read the Gamasutra post in detail, but if the summary of conditions is accurate, then that is rather more than one ought to have to tolerate in order to produce a AAA big-budget game, if it applies to the entire studio. A couple of months of those sorts of conditions at project end, or a week or two every couple of months, one might come to expect (more perhaps for the very top leads of a project), and it's the same for all engineering projects, software or phisical, games or mainstream as miscalculated schedules and feature creep are pretty much universal.

    What can one do about it? Well, you can speak to the management, although it doesn't help if like EA and Rockstar your top-level management are thousands of miles away. Pretty much the only other response is to make a high-profile complaint on the internet and embarrass the top brass into doing right by their staff.

    On another point, I wouldn't necessarily take insider opinion about the quality of gameplay of an unfinished Red Dead Redemption. Even top-tier games can play like shit for their whole development process until some magic point in Beta when it all clicks as last-minute refinements take hold.

  • kangarootoo #17 2 years ago

    "Am I right in thinking that devs are on something in the region of $85,000 and above?"

    No, you are not right.

  • SAMagic #18 2 years ago

    Anyone who thinks everyone at a development studio earn $85K each is talking out of the proverbial. It's only ever the higher-ups and executives who can expect to earn such (If programmers want to earn serious money, working for financial organisations is apparently better but naturally standards are extremely high).

    Let's look at the specific claim mentioned in the article:
    ...with employees expected to work 12-hour days, including Saturdays, while overtime and holiday time have been cut and pay-rises have barely covered inflation.
    The first half is expected around crunch time, I've done it before (Though not 12 hours every single day, that is absurd). On one hand, overtime towards the last quarter of a project is to be expected - ideally a project should not plan or expect overtime to occur, but it happens.

    However, it can only go so far (say more than a month, though it depends per project) and after that it becomes an issue resulting in bad management - where the 'March of Doom' can have an enormously negative affect on people, their energy and their morale.

    On the title I was part of, during crunch, holiday times had to be approved by the senior producer on a case-by-case basis. The dev team did get a bonus for reaching the ship date (Though this didn't include other parts of the company, like QA) which was a major boost to motivation, but it doesn't appear that the Rockstar staff are getting such, while if they're not getting necessary and fair pay-rises (Which is hard to judge on the info we have from the spouse) then that is definitely a problem.
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/10 @ 10:43

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #19 2 years ago

    That $85k is the average figure for programmers in the 2009 (US) Game Developer Magazine salary survey.

    However, average does not mean a minimum, also most of the rest of the disciplines with the exception of production staff earn lower. Besides, since the figure seems unusually high compared to what I know of UK game development wages, I wonder if respondents to the magazine survey are skewed towards more senior staff.

  • kangarootoo #20 2 years ago

    I wouldn't be surprised at all if much of this is true. However....

    This continual talk of "this is how it is" and "you know what you are getting yourself into" irks me rather a lot. Bad crunch periods ARE common in the games industry, but not for any good reasons of any sort.

    Crunch doesn't exist because of creativity. It doesn't exist because of dedication. It doesn't exist because making games is "fun and crazy". It exists for 2 reasons and 2 reasons alone.

    1. Bad planning and poor project management. Plain and simple.

    2. Publishers knowingly paying less than a game can be made for, with studios having to accept they will make up the difference with unpaid overtime (or go out of business because they have no work at all).

    It doesn't have to be that way. And it is certainly nothing to be accepted or applauded. If the games industry just got a little bit better at making games, the common place crunch would not be common place and it certainly wouldn't be viewed as acceptable by so many. Not every games company does big crunch and they still turn out good products on time and to budget, so it can be done.

  • kangarootoo #21 2 years ago

    @Mentalist(air)

    As you say, an average can be thrown out wildly by a few extreme numbers (the mean is a more reliable guide). That figure will also likely include anyone doing a technical job, whether the person in question actually writes lines of code on a regular basis (such as technical director roles).

  • Kerome #22 2 years ago

    It's fairly common, but that doesn't mean it's right. Paid overtime at time-and-a-half should be the norm in the industry, and until that happens it's unlikely that publishers / developers will structure more flexible deals that can deliver quality games without putting the burden on staff.

    I'm really quite surprised by the lack of sympathy from some people here towards the creators of the games we all love to play. For the most part these people are dedicated, smart and have a passion for games, and are more than willing to put in some extra hours. But there is a difference between a few extra hours and endless amounts of crunch as a matter of course.
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/10 @ 15:09

  • Murton #23 2 years ago

    As a former tester myself I can vouch for the crunch being hard, luckily the company I worked for treated us rather well up until the point of layoffs, but that's another story.

    I must however question "spouse's" knowledge of what's going on in the world. She claims that the development team are expected to work 12 hour days plus weekends, a cut in overtime and holiday plus a pay rise that barely meets inflation. This is true of many, many companies who have essentially used the recession and the huge increase in layoffs to influence their workforce into working longer/harder in the mistaken belief that they won't get laid off themselves when it suits the company to do so. It's something that has been going on for decades and certainly isn't unique to the games industry.

    It does however raise worries for Red Dead Redemption as poorly treated studios tend to release poorly made games, like any other product the end quality is a symbol of the motivation of its creator. Treat the creator badly they'll develop a "get it over with" attitude and quality will suffer, treat them well and they'll be much more motivated to get things done right.

  • MrChuckles #24 2 years ago

    Most companies i have worked for usually have mild crunch (45-55h a week, usually 2 lates a week) for 3 months followed by nasty crunch (60h+ a week, 4 lates a week plus a weekend day) to get the game out the door. Now, for all that extra work, employees usually get maybe a 2k bonus after the game ships, and then don't lose their jobs.

    Some companies pay awesome bonuses (i'm at one now), some companies don't do crunch (one of the ones in Brighton for example, then again they don't do bonuses either) and a lot of companies go over the 60h+ a week for more than 3 months, burn their whole team out, sow discord and haven't got a fecking clue what they are up to... (Sounds like what it happening at Rock Star San Diego at the moment). And then the game is so shite that they don't pay bonuses either and sometimes go bust, done that too!

    I've worked in all of them at some point, apart from from the no crunch system, which sounds amazing, but i can't believe actually works...

  • butler` #25 2 years ago

    It is kind of a sad state of affairs when even the most successful studios have to face that.

    I'm not sure why though, I can't see Blizzard or Valve acting like that somehow.

  • kangarootoo #26 2 years ago

    "Treat the creator badly they'll develop a "get it over with" attitude and quality will suffer, treat them well and they'll be much more motivated to get things done right."

    Truth.

  • LOLLERS #27 2 years ago

    "one of the ones in Brighton for example, then again they don't do bonuses either"

    If you mean Relentless, they do do bonuses...

  • kangarootoo #28 2 years ago

    "I'm not sure why though, I can't see Blizzard or Valve acting like that somehow."

    Sorry to pop the bubble, but I hear the crunch on Half Life 2 was crippling. Don't know about Blizzard, but I bet they have their moments.

  • Fab4 #29 2 years ago

    If you don't like the conditions you are working in, simple...leave. Many people would be happy to have A job, let alone a reasonably well-paid one.

  • Jesus: Action Figure #30 2 years ago

    @fab4
    Are you aware that other colours exist, not just black and white?

  • General_Zod #31 2 years ago

    Ah always made me laugh when I got my software engineering degree when people asked why I didnt go into games programming. Why would people want to get substantially less pay and work substantially more hours in the games industry when they could be working outside it?

  • TheBoyChris #32 2 years ago

    @General_Zod - Because it's more fun :p

  • Fab4 #33 2 years ago

    Are we talking Colour Theory now, or still bitching about working conditions? I've left several jobs of my own free will because I was unhappy with the working conditions...my employer's loss, not mine. One thing I've learnt in life, if something makes you unhappy, don't do it.

  • Jesus: Action Figure #34 2 years ago

    @fab4
    Why don't you work it out?
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/10 @ 12:37

  • LOLLERS #35 2 years ago

    Thats very easy to say, fab4, but much harder to do. Especially if 'just changing jobs' involves moving to a new city or even a new country, along with your family. It's especially hard when a previously good company to work for starts taking advantage of it's employees loyalty.


  • teabagger #36 2 years ago

    People should to be able to do a job in any industry without an expectation of sacrificing their relationships and watching their children grow up.

    I'm not sure I see why some people think the games industry is somehow exempt from this. Maybe it's because they don't actually have any idea about the realities of game development and think we all get paid a fortune for having fun all day.
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/10 @ 12:50

  • Fab4 #37 2 years ago

    @lollers, with responsibility comes sacrifice. At least two of my job changes required 1 move to a foreign country and another move to a different city. Also, whenever I told two of my employers I was leaving, they offered me better conditions and pay, which I turned down out of principle.

    Like I said, if you dont have the balls to do what is right for your own happiness, then employers will walk all over you. If you have responsibilities which negates the possibility of finding a new job, suck it up and be thankful you have a job in the first place.

  • crazyhorse174 #38 2 years ago

    Welcome to the real world folks...

  • kangarootoo #39 2 years ago

    @Fab4

    Whilst it is of course the case that people have some control over where they work (some mind you, not complete), that is a seperate issue from wishing for improved working conditions. The point made earlier about shades of grey was highlighting that you can perhaps walk away from a job you don't like AND wish you didn't have to.

    If you base your life only on "if you don't like it, walk away", where does that end? If your house keeps getting burgled, do you wish for better law enforcement or just move house? If you get bullied for being unattractive, do you wish for better associates and friends or do you get plastic surgery?

    Time has shown that the people who say "if you don't like it, walk away" about this subject are usually quite young and have never really found themselves in a situation where they can't just walk away from a job because they have dependants or commitments. Lets talk again in 10 more years and see how you feel on the subject.

  • kangarootoo #40 2 years ago

    @Fab4

    Its a shame that you couldn't find a better job without having to switch countries. Maybe if you had more choices available to you, you wouldn't feel so angry about the subject.


    "Like I said, if you dont have the balls to do what is right for your own happiness, then employers will walk all over you"

    I get on very well with my employers and have a history of doing so. Nobody walks over anybody else, and that is not because either of us "have the balls to do what is right".

    Instead we have what is known as a functional working relationship, a win win situation to use a cliche. "Give and take" that serves both parties. If you always go into a situation expecting to have to fight instead of negotiate, perhaps you should also expect to have to change jobs frequently in your search for satisfaction...

  • teabagger #41 2 years ago

    @Fab4: I take it you don't have responsibilities to anyone except yourself then because if not you'd know that once you're married, have a house and a child it's not just about yourself any more and as such you can't just change jobs/career/location without considering the impact on the rest of your family both financially and emotionally.

    You come across as a young guy with no responsibilities and that's all well and good, I wish I was as mobile in the jobs market as I was 10 years ago as it was as simple as you make out back then. But now, so I change jobs... well o.k, what about my wife's position she's worked hard for and managed to go part time when our child is older? She won't be able to get that starting at a new place, so that impacts her career and earning potential. What about the decent nursery place we've secured where we are? Good ones have at least a years waiting list so I guess my child will have to go so some shitty place instead, potentially having long term impacts on her learning. What if we do all that and in two years it's not better. Shall we all move again???

    Oh, and change your career. Right. Wife on paternity, going back part-time + new child + mortgage. And you think I can afford to just dump a career with 11 years experience and go on a starting salary. Get real.

    We don't expect special treatment, just to be able to do our jobs and have a life outside of work. Yeah crunch is expected, but too many studios rely on it to compensate for poor project management or to complete work loads that are deliberately unachievable in normal hours.t

  • Fab4 #42 2 years ago

    Dont play the "I must be too young to know any better' card, Kanga. I'm 42 years old, how about you come back to me whenever you've experienced a bit more of life.

    The examples you give, burglary and ugliness, and not something that is chosen. Working at a certain job/company is, especially in the software development industry. I fully understand there are people who will not have the option to move on, most likely those on minimum wage/unskilled labour, but this article isnt about those kinds of people. I'm guessing most of them have university level education behind them and the necessary skill set to diversify if required.

    As a side note, I've already lost one colleague this financial year, due to stress related issues caused by being unhappy at their work. You know what? She isnt worried about not working now, she's just happy her brain isnt fried any more. Shame it took that for her to realise that working isnt everything in life, no matter what responsibilities you have.

  • General_Zod #43 2 years ago

    @TheBoyChris

    I assure you I have been in crunches before and they are anything but fun.

  • butler` #44 2 years ago

    there's a big difference between a pre-release crunch and a culture of this kinda of work ethic

  • TeaFiend #45 2 years ago

    Are there any games companies that do not do large amounts of overtime, especially close to release? It is down to many factors and a problem is that many companies plan for overtime to get the product finished, not use overtime when falling behind.

  • jefranklin18 #46 2 years ago

    Maybe Rockstar_spouse's hubby is having an affair and he's blaming work as an excuse? ;)

  • Arganoid #47 2 years ago

    This kind of thing can result in permanent disability in the form of chronic RSI.

  • Murton #48 2 years ago

    If I'm remembering correctly Red Dead Redemption is due to release in late April, in the US at least. So we're pretty much at the height of crunch time over at Rockstar, but once the game submits (likely sometime in February, that'll die down to a normal week and provided it passes the studio will likely be treated to a couple weeks free time off and a rather generous bonus.

    I for one find it difficult to feel sympathetic to these guys, though that's largely due to my experience of the games industry, watching the studio get bonuses while QA saw massive job cuts would leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth. At the end of the day "Rockstar Spouse" your better half will get some much deserved time off and a load of money when the game is finished, furthermore he'll likely still have a job to go back to after that break and be able to maintain your family's lifestyle, I for one would be thankful for that rather than trying to stir up trouble that could likely jeopardise his job. Just saying.

  • actionfitz #49 2 years ago

    "although nobody from the studio had contributed under a real name at the time of writing."

    erm, if they are "treated shabbily" for complaining about no time off, can you imagine what treatment they would get for blowing the whistle on inhuman and illegal treatment of employees?

  • actionfitz #50 2 years ago

    ""Am I right in thinking that devs are on something in the region of $85,000 and above?" "

    try £9k-12k for QA, £17k-25k for artists (DOE), programmers (possibly wrong) £20k-30k or above if you're shit-hot.

    not exactly sports cars and personal helicopter territory.
    Have to say, not surprised to see the local Eurogamer 'I know fuck all about the topic but i'm gonna post my 2p anyway' brigade are out in full force in this thread.
    There is no justification for conditions such as described in the blog post and comments (however horribly written).
    None what so ever.
    Name and shame the cunts.

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #51 2 years ago

    How is the rest of life back in the year 2000, actionFitz?

    UK games industry pay is considerably more competetive than that nowadays, at least according to recruiters bothering me to relocate to the southeast.

    But still not enough to justify working conditions as described by the various disgruntled US spouses.

    Edit: ooh, official UK numbers:
    http://ww w.develop-online.net/features/4...
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/10 @ 15:25

  • YourMessageHere #52 2 years ago

    While I agree that this is horrific treatment if it's true, I also have a lot of time for Fab4's point of view. Employees who roll over and take this kind of working practice are essentially complicit in it to a certain extent. The lion's share of the problem lies with terrible management, but not all of it. Personally, I work to live, rather than living to work. If something is making me unhappy, whether that's I stop doing it as soon as possible. Granted I don't work in games and nor would I if I could, but as others have said there's nothing that makes the games industry special - managers need to be able to manage effectively in any line of work, and if this kind of thing is happening, effective management isn't.

  • Kinkster #53 2 years ago

    I worked for R* Leeds and was treated exactly the same way, including a "Commitment issues" meeting when I merely worked 6 hours on a Sunday - for free!

    The fact is, they expect the free overtime, tell you about the bonus' or "well deserved time off", then, if the game doesn't sell, you get Jack. I finished one game for them then jumped out of the entire industry for the sake of my health and my relationship.

    Oh, and in 2005 I was paid £20,000 as a Mission Scripter, just for the sake of people bandying sums around.
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/10 @ 15:47

  • Vice.Destroyer #54 2 years ago

    Commitment issues meeting? "Kinkster? We are concerned you didn't sacrifice your first-born as a measure of your commitment to crunch time. He is clearly distracting you and you'd work harder without him around."

  • Spekingur #55 2 years ago

    So is Rockstar being outed as one of the evil one in the industry but fans are clamping their ears shut and shouting "WE ARE NOT LISTENING, WE ARE NOT LISTENING!" ?

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #56 2 years ago

    [link url=http://www.develop-online. net/features/486/Burn-out-The-Develop-Quality-of-Life-survey
    ]http://ww w.develop-online.net/features/4...[/link]

    Another interesting survey from the UK perspective.

  • TheBoyChris #57 2 years ago

    @General_Zod - Me too, I was just poking fun sorry :D

  • trip919 #58 2 years ago

    Women, shut your goddamn pieholes.

    They’re working on what is going to be the finest western game in existence.

    Suck-it-the-fuck-up.

  • WasteOfTime #59 2 years ago

    Dear Rockstar

    Thanks for letting us know you treat your workers like shit.

    FYI, its a waste of time trying to play the guilt card on us, we're a generation of semi-literate, politically docile, spoilt morons.

    It doesn't matter to us. We're the ones buying cheap branded trainers, hand stitched by children in the far east.

    In fact, about 80% of our clothing is made in sweat shops, our food is mass produced using near slave labour, our drugs are smuggled in by peasants and this official Premiership football I'm kicking around was only a bargain cause of the kids involved in the manufacturing process. Same goes for the kit. ( I HOPE MAN UNITED OR CHELSEA WIN THAT FOOTBALL FING)

    By the way, we resent actually having to pay for anything film, music or game related.

    By that measure, the only way I'll experience this game is if I can download it for free anyway, or buy it second hand from my local shitpit game store. So long as the talent behind it doesn't see a dime, its all good.

    To the developers; I don't care that it this game cost you all your friends outside of gaming AND your wife/significant other.

    PS If there are no easy AND lucrative game design jobs available on my doorstep the FUCKING INSTANT I leave school, I am going to be PISSED OFF AND BLAME TEH GOVERNMENT.

    love and kisses

    anyone 15-25 years old

  • Jayke #60 2 years ago

    this isn't uncommon. Deadlines are the issue and you cant meet them and stay financially viable without working long days, 12 hours is not that bad i've known people working two jobs who are lucky to get an hour off to sleep. suck it up. If they unionize youll see games take twice as long to be produced and a lot of companies will have to close.

  • Kerome #61 2 years ago

    @ actionfitz: as average salaries those numbers are about right, key senior staff will be on up to double that

    @ wasteoftime: that is a good representation of the attitude which is driving a lot of the underlying issues.

    This stuff isn't just limited to games, but it's a core feature of a capitalist, competition-based society. In games it just manifests particularly prominently because lots of people would like to work in the industry, and so employers get away with saying "you should feel grateful for just doing the work", because they know there will be another 20 applicants for the job if someone leaves.

    Then you need to consider that in the global economy, you're competing with companies in India and China, where labour laws are not nearly as enlightened as in the EU... There's no such thing as a maximum working time directive over there. That allows companies to exploit their workers to a much greater extent, and puts pressure on western work forces to increase in efficiency. It's the same as the sweatshops phenomenon, but in a slightly different form.

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #62 2 years ago

    "you should feel grateful for just doing the work", because they know there will be another 20 applicants for the job if someone leaves.

    With the possible exception of QA staff, I'd contest that that is the case. I'd say there's far more of a skills shortage problem than there are people queueing up to get a shot in the games industry. That's not what drives the staff of Rockstar San Diego to stay in their jobs so much as the general upheaval of moving (as has been much discussed here, selling houses, changing schools etc) and also a loyalty to the project they are working on - a belief that it can end up being something that they are proud of. It's partly the latter reason that so many staff leave games companies after project completions, not just that many are cynically made redundant, but that their job is done so they feel free to look for something different or better because the product they had invested all that effort in no longer needs more of that effort.

    "Then you need to consider that in the global economy, you're competing with companies in India and China, where labour laws are not nearly as enlightened as in the EU"

    Given the quality of code I've seen form even the likes of Korea, that's not likely to be a problem for some time. To be honest, I'm surprised we haven't been swamped by cheap foreign outsourcing already, but with the exception of having 3D models knocked up in Russia I don't think we have. I guess there are more complex socio-economic factors at work governing the production of quality software than there are for stitching football tops or stamping out semiconductors.
    Edited by 2 at 12/01/10 @ 10:19

  • oupe #63 2 years ago

    This kind of shit makes me want to boycott Rockstar although I'm affraid I'd have to boycott 90% of all games studios.

  • kangarootoo #64 2 years ago

    @Fab4

    "I'm 42 years old, how about you come back to me whenever you've experienced a bit more of life."

    Wow. You say that as if its a good thing. From the way you conduct yourself I had you down as half that age if you were a day.

    42 years old but with no ties and a childishly harsh attitude to working conditions. Not sure what to say to that really. "Good luck" springs to mind.
    Edited by 1 at 12/01/10 @ 16:35

  • kangarootoo #65 2 years ago

    @Mentalist(air)

    The numbers vary wildly depending on company. I have always worked in the south east and have seen a pretty big disparity between the big companies and the little studios (who obviously have tighter budgets for everything). There has also been a change in recruitment over the last year or so, and companies that were hiring madly are not doing so anymore (or going in reverse in that regard in some cases).

    I say again, averages are unreliable and median values are better. The averages in that article seem about right, but the average wage of £22k for a designer will be spread between lower amounts at the many indie devs and maybe £8k more than that at some of the larger studios.

    Also, the terms "lead" and "junior" are unreliable in this business. A lead designer at one small company would be lucky to get a senior role at one of the big gun places and consequently a lead design role at the small place might be worth >£10k less than at the larger studio.

    If we had the median figures to hand, I think we would find that some of the numbers actionfitz quoted will be closer to the mark ( if, I agree, a little on the low side).
    Edited by 1 at 12/01/10 @ 16:57

  • Fab4 #66 2 years ago

    @Kanga, no ties, eh? Why don't you save your assumptions for someone who might be impressed by them. Good luck with that.

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #67 2 years ago

    What he's essentially saying, Fab4, is that now we can't give you the benefit of being too young to know what you're talking about, we have no option but to conclude that you're just a dick.

  • Fab4 #68 2 years ago

    No, what he is saying is that because I dont share his (or your) views on employment then he is free to treat me with contempt. He doesnt know anything about me, yet he throws around assumptions like free sweeties. Well, on those assumptions, he has went 'zero for two', so if I was him, I would give up on the amateur psychology because it isnt working (if you'll excuse the choice of words).

    So, feel free to think of me as a dick, and i'll try to keep my sobbing heart quiet.

  • kangarootoo #69 2 years ago

    @Fab4

    Sweet jesus dude, I just work with the info you give us. Someone who can just up sticks and move country in order to find a job they like would appear to have no ties. I guess you just have an understanding partner or something. Either way, you need to lighten up when it comes to working condiitions.

    Your first word on the matter was essentially "toughen up", which as has been pointed out is an macho and immature approach to most subjects. If the impression you give us is that you are too young to know what you are on about, perhaps that is because that is the way you behave despite your true age and situation.


    "what he is saying is that because I dont share his (or your) views on employment then he is free to treat me with contempt"

    In a nutshell yes, your immature attitude is contemptable, hence I treat it that way.