Rockstar rails against BBFC

By Ellie Gibson Published 26 November, 2007

Manhunt 2 appeal hearing begins.

Rockstar today launched its appeal against the BBFC's decision to refuse Manhunt 2 certification, accusing the board of putting its reputation above the interests of gamers.

Geoffrey Robertson, representing Rockstar, began the proceedings by claiming the British Board of Film Classification was a misnomer - suggesting it should instead be referred to as the British Board of Videogame Censors.

"There's no evidence that playing interactive videogames leads to a propensity to act them out in real life. We wonder why Manhunt 2 has been singled out for special treatment," he stated.

Robertson went on to accuse the BBFC of being "simply ignorant of the gaming experience" and "throwing adjectives with hyperbolic abandon at the game".

"Their reputation is not at stake; if it were we could show how, over the last century, they've been derided for some of the most stupid decisions in censorship history," he continued. "But we're not going to go down that road."

According to statistics presented by Robertson, there are 26.5 million gamers in the UK. Their average age is 28 and the gender split is 45 per cent female, 55 per cent male.

Addressing the panel from the Video Appeals Committee present to hear Rockstar's appeal Robertson said, "There you are, seven of you - not one of you has experienced, I'm told by the chairman, computer games, or are a gamer."

At this point one member of the panel interjected, stating, "That's not true. Some of us actually have played computer games." It was also confirmed that the panel did play Manhunt 2 in advance of the hearing.

Robertson described as "offensive and outrageous" the "allegation the board makes against adults in this country that they're somehow going to go and shoot or kill as a result of playing Manhunt 2.

"Millions of gamers play videogames and no crime has ever been directly attributed to them, with one exception."

The exception, Robertson explained, was the alleged connection between the original Manhunt and the murder of British teenager Stefan Pakeerah. The police later issued a statement which said Pakeerah's killer did not own the game and there was no connection.

Robertson added, "We say [Manhunt 2] has been banned not because of any likelihood it will harm gamers, but because of the likelihood it will harm the reputation of the BBFC."

Picture of Ellie.

About Ellie Gibson

Since joining Eurogamer in the mid 2000s, Ellie has written about subjects as diverse as the fall of Gizmondo, the rise of Hollyoaks actresses in Red Alert games and the noise a bear makes under NSFW circumstances.

Read more articles from Ellie by visiting the Ellie Gibson archive page.

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Comments (42) Latest comment 4 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Kami #1 4 years ago

    This is not going to end well if they continue that line of attack...

  • Moz #2 4 years ago

    When will Rockstar get over themselfs?

    Have they made this much fuss in Germany?

  • Saladin #3 4 years ago

    To be fair to Rockstar, they've got a point. And if by making it they free up the ridiculous old-fashioned values that hold back gaming as a popular medium, then good on them.

    /waits for the day that games can equal film and literature in terms of maturity and interesting takes on controversial subjects.

  • chrisjm #4 4 years ago

    so the BBFC played it before this hearing, and they havent killed anyone yet?

    I rest my case.

    If this was a movie bbfc would of passed it, stupidly enough bbfc even did research into games and the conclusion makes this being banned even more laughable.

  • Vice.Destroyer #5 4 years ago

    I'm really more interested in the gender split. 45% female - 55% male? He must have got his stats wrong. Surely.

  • Moz #6 4 years ago

    @ Saladin "/waits for the day that games can equal film and literature in terms of maturity and interesting takes on controversial subjects."

    But from what the reviews say Manhunt 2 doesn't do any of the above!

    And sales wise games already supass film and books

    EDIT:/ @Vice.Destroyer that probably right once you take the Sims and the DS into account
    Edited by 1 at 26/11/07 @ 14:40

  • SEVQA #7 4 years ago

    I think the game is sexist as only men get slaughtered! In this day and age women should get the same treatment: therefore womanhunt must be released and the BBFC will be happy as equality was the problem with this game after all!!!!

  • haowan #8 4 years ago

    if I want to garotte some school children and i can't vent my desires through the medium of video games, i might have to go out and do it in real life...

  • JohnnyWashnGo #9 4 years ago

    Rockstar need to get over themselves.

    They had a game banned because it dipicted graphic violence without putting it in any meaningful context. They need to learn a bit of responsibility and if having a game banned does that then I am completely in favour of it.

  • Kami #10 4 years ago

    I agree that the censorship is a little... skewed. I just felt a little embarassed for Rockstar reading some of that. They really should just point out that it's a game, they've let worse movies slip through the net in recent years and that they need to judge the two mediums equally. I'm not sure how Hostel and the later Saw films get released and Manhunt 2 does not.

    They have a great case, they don't need the attitude that this gives off. This is the worst possible thing they can do because at the end of the day, win or lose, that image of them will last in any future negotiations. Or should that become "lack thereof".

    That said, I'm sure the BBFC know now that if Manhunt 2 gets rated and on the shelves, it's going to sell like hot-cakes purely because of the fuss over its rating. Natural curiosity and all that. That won't be great for the BBFC's reputation either. Then, they have had worse.

    BBFC should rate it 18. And Rockstar need to be force-fed some Humble Pie. Both sides are stupid here and both sides need steel-capped boots planted up their backsides.
    Edited by 2 at 26/11/07 @ 14:49

  • moggsy #11 4 years ago

    If you do this Google search the title for the BBFC's offical website is 'Ban the Board of Film Censors'.

    Hee, hee. :-)
    Edited by 1 at 26/11/07 @ 14:55

  • Saladin #12 4 years ago

    @Moz:

    I didn't mean that Manhunt 2 was an example of a "good" video game, or a mature title (in that it tackles issues in more than an OMG LOOK AT THE GORE sort of way). I was more makign a statement about the medium as a whole, not individual titles.

    Kami hit it on the head just above. If games featured violence and the undercurrents of misogyny that are present in most of the 'gore-porn' teen-slasher films released every summer, they'd get banninated for sure.

  • Moz #13 4 years ago

    @Saladin

    I personally feel that there should be a bit of difference between ratings on films and games as games have that interactive element.

    As far as game having good plots and tackling adult issues goes that more about what sells then any kind of censorship. will the masses continue to buy the likes of COD4 and FIfa08 then that what the studios will churn out.

  • robg #14 4 years ago

    Rockstar do seem to be reacting very childishly to all this. The point is they *haven't* innovated in this game, they've just taken to a far extreme a fairly dull aspect of gaming.

    And the old argument about games vs films - interaction *is* important. Identifying with (and pretending to be) the stupidly sadistic killer is very different to watching him, horrified.

    Which is not to say that it'll instantly turn players into killers (see also: http://ww w.xenu.net/archive/baloney_dete... and Excluded Middle/Non Sequitur).

  • BillyBrush #15 4 years ago

    you don't need to innovate to avoid being banned - see exhibit A Fifa '99

    from the gamers spectrum, all people say is they don't think it's much good/rockstar are stale, which is the best pro censorship argument teh evarr

    Condemned 2 will be just as violent as Manhunt and more detailed with it, and we'll get to play it, casual sadism, non lightening of tone n all.....brill

  • Kami #16 4 years ago

    Reminder that there have been countless studies and reports into this "interactive element" and it's effect on people. There is no solid evidence as of yet. Anything up to that point is speculation and opinion.

    That's just a friendly reminder.

  • Lemming81 #17 4 years ago

    Rockstar, little newsflash for you: We, the gamers, couldn't give a shit about this game so please don't feel you have to fight for it in any form.
    Edited by 1 at 26/11/07 @ 15:18

  • RamblinSydRumpo #18 4 years ago

    I'm totally against censorship but if Rockstar really wanted to make a point and start a crusade for gaming to be treated seriously they should have come up with something better than this sorry piece of crap. Having played it I can honestly say it's one of the worst games I've seen and comes nowhere near re-creating the tension of the first game (which is one of my favourite games - at least in parts). This does just come across as a cynical attempt to try and be shocking solely to make money and doesn't do the image of the industry as a whole any good. Unfortunately the BBFC can't just put a "don't waste your money on this turd" rating on it. Shame.

  • Saladin #19 4 years ago

    See, that was my point on the Condemned 2 comment thread - what's the difference between Manhunt 2's canned violence and their so-called "environment kills"? I honestly don't see the difference - both feature fairly extreme quasi-stealthy violence (though neither have a patch on what Hollywood puts out these days), and both involve murdering folk in nasty pre-generated cut-scenes.

    And yet, Condemned 2 will get through, because the Daily Mail-reading public, to whom the BBFC are pandering with this whole Manhunt 2 debacle, don't associate the brand or the developer with being particularly edgy. Rockstar courted this reputation for producing VG 'nasties', and now their reaping what they sowed.

    However, it'll sell them a fuck load of software once GTA4 and Manhunt 2 finally come out.

  • TelexStar #20 4 years ago

    I'm really struggling to feel any sympathy for Rockstar.

  • rashes #21 4 years ago

    sounds like a robust defense on Rockstars part and well done to them. I don't care too much about Manhunt 2 (I loved the 1st though) but it is an important issue.

    Especially with attitudes like JohnnyWashnGo about.

  • Saladin #22 4 years ago

    Just because the game is poor doesn't mean the issue isn't worth fighting for. Sure, Manhunt 2 might be trash - I don't know for sure, because I haven't played it. Thing is, for every ten Manhunt 2 games, there might well be one quality mature title that would never get made if the BBFC keep acting so heavy-handedly with the gaming industry.

  • The_Inquisitor #23 4 years ago

    They've spent millions developing this title, it makes sense that they're going to try everything possible to get it released and therefore, make money out of it. Their argument raises questions about the true reason behind the BBFCs banning of Manhunt 2, but I can't see them changing their minds now.

  • Wite_Noiz #24 4 years ago

    I'm against Rockstar on this (but not with BBFC, as such).
    I think we do need a certification body for games, and the BBFC do and damned good job.

    The problem is that interactive media has a different affect on people than standard non-interactive media. (Who can honestly say they've not had vivid gaming dreams?)
    The area isn't well understood, so BBFC have taken a conservative stance.

    It may be too harsh, but since the majority of kids are more easily able to access games above their recommended age than they are films, perhaps this is a good thing?

    Oblig: Won't somebody think of the children!?

  • escapedape #25 4 years ago

    "And sales wise games already supass film and books"

    Revenue wise, yes. Sales wise - absolutely not.

    You really think that even the biggest game would sell more than something like a Harry Potter book?

  • oreillymj #26 4 years ago

    Somehow I doubt Rockstar give a toss about the "interest" of gamers.
    It's more likely that the have $$$ at stake and need to get this POS on to the shelves to try an recoup dev costs.

  • Saladin #27 4 years ago

    @Wite_Noiz:

    The only vivid gaming dream I've ever had was Picross. Does that mean it needs to get censored?

    ;)

  • BBIAJ #28 4 years ago

    Lemming81: Just because you don't care for the game, doesn't mean that the entire gaming community feels the same way about it as you do.

  • MrFlump #29 4 years ago

    Rockstar has a valid point in that its invested money in the production of the game and needs to recoup its costs for the developers and licensing and so forth.

    I'm of the firm opinion that no-one who cannot produce ID should be permitted to purchase 18-rated games and movies. At that age, you should be of sound mind and body to realise reality from fiction and therefore responsible for your own actions.

    My local asda on bonfire night were ID'ing every single person who came to the till to buy fireworks irrespective of if it was the clearly 60 year old guy in front of me or an early twenties guy. I don't know who the BBFC are trying to protect here... if they are trying to protect adults, then i think thats a very niave approach as I am of sound enough judgement to make my own decisions on what I play or see.

    If they are trying to protect those under 18 from titles like this then they should increase the penalties for retailers selling titles to under age people. As soon as places insist on production of ID for buy classified titles irrespective of how old someone looks the better. If the parents are buying these things for their children, then the fact that they are being asked for ID for a title might make them wonder why that is happening. Retailers should be informing anyone buying titles like Manhunt that the content is extremely violent and gory and remind them that the title is 18 rated.

  • Darren #30 4 years ago

    It seems like every game Rockstar release these days comes with some controversy... GTA San Andreas's "Hot Coffee", the stupid complaints about the rather tame Bully (it's no nasty than an episode of Grange Hill for christsake!) and now the ban on Manhunt 2. Makes you wonder what's in store for GTA IV when it's released next year really, especially as that's likely to feature far more realistic depictions of violence than were possible on the Xbox and PS2... I'm sure the Daily Mail will hate it...

  • t8yman #31 4 years ago

    rockstar need to get a grip of themselves. yes the bbfc might be under experienced in gaming, but they do a damn good job in the movie world IMHO, and the majority of people who I have spoken to think MH2 is a step too far.

    I am incredibly surprised that SOFIII has seemingly gone unmentioned, although I agree that the dismemberment is "in context"


    @andyjack

    watch this fim

    [link url=http://www.imdb. com/title/tt0412467/
    ]http://www.imdb. com/title/tt0412467/
    [/link]

    and then come back and tell me what you think, it delivers on the violence and gore. believe me.

    then tell me if you think thats a "good" thing.

    its not about content all the time, its about the fact that 90% of parents dont have a fucking clue what is in their kids games, I stood in the queue at gamestation the other week and watched some fucking horrible mess buy 2 18 rated games for her 8 yo twins.

  • Landmaster #32 4 years ago

    Shut up "JohnnyWashnGo" an all you other faggots who believe Games should be banned because of violence and explict content.
    We should be able to murder computer animated characters if we want to.
    Edited by 1 at 27/11/07 @ 07:55

  • t8yman #33 4 years ago

    no landmaster, games that are shit, and going for the obvious "risky" dollar with no real artistic value deserve to be banned. MH2 falls into this catagory IMHO.

    and its "banned" by the way.

  • Feanor #34 4 years ago

    Rockstar should just play Hostel 2 in court, putting it in slow-mo where appropriate if they want to show that Manhunt 2 was treated unfairly. I'd love to watch everyone squirming.

    The fact that DVDs can be watched in slow-motion, and particular bits can be viewed over and over again is supposed to be taken into account by the censors.
    Edited by 1 at 26/11/07 @ 17:17

  • FenderMaster #35 4 years ago

    i dont really care about the game, imo rockstar are very overrated game developers, but it is kind of ridiculous that contextless torture porn i.e. Hostel or Saw films can get a release, and this less graphic, equally contextless game is banned... i dunno...

    ... btw, how on earth did Resident Evil 4 get away with a 15 cert when it depicts graphic shotgun decapitations of humans?

    the BBFC always seemed pretty random in their ratings... i guess its because Resi 4 didnt get noticed by the Tabloids...

  • MrChuckles #36 4 years ago

    As someone else said, in most of the films used as examples of horror/gore etc, the viewers are on the side of the people that these things are happening to, they want them to escape, the films usually end with the killers getting their just desserts.

    AFAIK, in Manhunt the viewer is the killer, the game finishes with them getting away scot free, therefore it is 'morally corrupt' in their view even if the killing is no more gory than other games or films released.

  • Lemming81 #37 4 years ago

    BBIAJ: Yes they do, ask them. The irony is that when this game flops R* will blame it on the BBFC and other rating organisations instead of themselves for making a poor game.

  • SirClive #38 4 years ago

    I'm glad Rockstar have taken the tone that they have. A half arsed politician like speach would not represent gamers or the extent of our outrage at the ridiculous judgement.

  • ph101 #39 4 years ago

    yes the game may be no good but the BBFC's decision is inconsistent and absurd - it must be repealed.

  • Corben_Dallas #40 4 years ago

    Manhunt games are rubbish, Rockstar just goin for the shock Video-nasty cheap slasher end of video games

    Rockstar are better than this.
    :(
    Edited by 1 at 27/11/07 @ 00:52

  • Beardedmonkey #41 4 years ago

    "I detest what you write, but I would give my life
    to make it possible for you to continue to write."

    "I know many books which
    have bored their readers,
    but I know of none which
    has done real evil."

    Both quotes from Voltaire. Substitute books for games and they seem pretty apt (especially the 2nd one, in the case of Manhunt 2!).

  • bad09 #42 4 years ago

    I'm getting tired of all this Manhunt rubbish. This game franchise is DULL and would be long forgotten if not for Rockstar constantly milking the hype. They knew the BBFC would not like what they saw and the publicity machine would do the rest to sell the game. It worked with the first game, which in my opinion (and a lot of other peoples) was a DREADFULLY boring game to play which didn't justify the coverage it received.
    I agree that you can see worse things of film but does that make it right? Personally I think films like Saw and Hostel are actually destroying the horror movie genre, who needs to scare you when they can just gross you out with sick images?

    I think censorship is wrong in many ways, and although they have made some shocking decisions in the past, the BBFC were right in this case. How many people who actually are old enough to buy an 18 cert game are truly interested in the overtly shocking imagery missing from the game? I have to say from what I've read on the internet a lot of it seems to be the young teens shouting "I want to see more mutilation!, I'm 12 years old and should be allowed 'cos my mum lets me watch Saw and everything!!"

    Try to remember people, watching horrific murders does not make a great game (or even a good one in Manhunts case)!