Rockstar appeals over Manhunt 2 News

Banhunt more like!

.....er....

@OllyJ - nice pun

It seems like rockstar are crying over spilt milk. The industry is just going through exactly the same period of pushing the limits that both book publishers and movie companies already encountered. Sometimes the limits can be pushed and boundaries broken. With Manhunt 2 - it looks like they've pushed too far, and it's come back to bite them - it was always to be expected, especially considering the subject's content that they doggedly pursue.

Not every game needs to be bright colours and sparkles and lacking in violence, and I enjoy my F.E.A.R. and Resident Evil as much as Katamari and Mario, but then do we really need a game which seems to exist solely to make real Jack Thompson's delusional ramblings of "games being murder simulators"??

[edit: added punctuation]

Totally agree with rockstar. I wouldnt buy the game, as I'm a wuss and dont 'do' scary games, but I really hate to see things banned for no reason.

Manhuntlol

lolhunt

Manlol

Colour me deeply unsurprised.

come on, what's a little manhunt between friends?

"The BBFC allows adults the freedom to decide for themselves when it comes to horror in movies and we think adults should be similarly allowed to decide for themselves when it comes to horror in videogames, such as Manhunt 2."

I couldn't agree more. This ban was a fuckwitted decision by the BBFC and is not because of content, it has been banned because the BBFC took alot of heat for allowing MH1 because in 2004 some retarded 17year old (who shouldn't have been playing the game anyway as it was an 18cert) killed his younger friend and tried to get out of it by saying that playing MH had addled his tiny brain. The courts decided that he was chatting shit and said there was no proof the game was involved in any way.

This is the BBFC disallowing us to enjoy this game to take the heat off themselves! TWATS!

"The changes necessary in order to publish the game in Britain are unacceptable to us and represent a setback for videogames."

"Therefore, " he continued, "we will now embark on a murderous rampage within the offices of the BBFC until the game receives a certificate."

Unrelated... but If you walked into your living room and saw your kid clutching a wii-mote, making a stabbing action, accompanied by the realisation of this on the screen, the squelching sounds, the screams, and a look of glee on your kids face..... how would it make you feel.

Even if Rockstar wins the appeal and the game gets a release here, the damage is done. Developers are now very cautious on the material they include in future games. This is at least a partial win for the anti-sadism camp no matter what the outcome of the appeal is.

My stance? Adults should have the ability to make their own choice on what games to buy *ONLY* if there is an effective system in place that prohibits minors, especially children from accessing these games.

Although such a system exists; education and awareness on the subject however is at an unfortunate minimum. Thus i conclude that Manhunt 2 and it's ilk should be released only when the industry has matured a little bit more. Prematurely introducing this type of game in an industry that's still in its relative infancy is at best unwise and at worst irresponsible.

Still beating this mediocre dead horse?

About time they moved on.

If movies like Hostel can be released I see no reason to ban this game.

I won't play it, I don't like violence, gore or being scared, but I realise some people do.

Hostel is in an industry that's been established now for over a centuary

I'd ban Hostel as well - it was shit too.

Yes, Hostel requires you make stabbing motions and take the place of the killer. I see where you're going with that.

Or in other words - WRONG! As basic as it may be, Hostel deliberately makes you side with the innocent protagonist through showing you the horror of the torture. So by the end, it doesn't matter if he's an arrogant dick, it's so horrifying you want him to escape. And before anyone brings it up, a film like Irreversible deliberately makes the experience of rape horrifying through showing its consequences. Neither film uses violence for violence's sake, in Hostel's case it's to side you with the tourist.

@chicknstu

If my child was under 18 years of age, it would make me feel like a poor parent . If my child was over 18 or in my parental view mature enough to safely enjoy the game, I'd say "Go on my son/daughter, stab that mutha to death". Then I would have a go myself.

Just like to add that if my child had a Wii I'd be very distressed as it is imo a bit pants:)

Rockstar's argument is false; the BBFC will similarly ban movies if they see the need to. Playing the victim card here is completely inappropriate.

"he was chatting shit"

Now there is a phrase I haven't used for years.

Made me chuckle, a lot.

@Altrezia

I agree, this ban is unacceptable.
Rockstar should start a petition or something
Let’s start the revolution, fight the power and all that!

I'm bored of people moaning "adults should have the choice"
well they do have a choice, and overall we choose to have a body in place, whose decisions process is taken from the public, to chose what should be avaliable.
If you think that nothing should ever be banned, and no subject or action in media could ever be over the top or too sick then sorry but your in the minority. People moaning about their civil rights should just shut up, its a game for crying out loud, your hardly being shot at for daring to suggest the government isn't that great.

Before condeming the BBFC (I am yet to hear anyone suggest another questionable judgment) this was taken from their "Video Game Submission Guide" (this and other documents are availble from http://www.bbfc.co.uk/downloads/pub/Subm... )

Theme
The acceptability of a theme depends significantly on its treatment, ie the context and sensitivity of its presentation. The most problematic themes are unlikely to be appropriate at the most junior levels of classification. Correspondingly, there
is no reason why most themes could not be satisfactorily handled at the
upper categories.

However, given the complicity required of players by video games, themes involving interactive sexual violence, drug misuse or particularly sadistic violence may be restricted to the highest categories and possibly even cut or rejected

I do however feel that any video game or film should be available to adults unless the media itself is illegal.

Jesus, can we get some actual facts into the discussion here. Whatever your opinion, surely it should be informed. Otherwise we are hardly better than a cage of screaming monkeys.

The BBFC did not ban MH for "no reason". They banned it because it did not pass the criteria that is very clearly laid out for them. Its a barely subjective process, their guidelines are very clear.

ALSO, their guidelines are created by public consultation. They are constantly updated as public opinion shift. The people working at the BBFC DO NOT create the guidelines themselves. They are based on the wishes of WE the general public.


Start here,

http://www.bbfc.co.uk/policy/index.php

and READ.

Then read this.

http://www.bbfc.co.uk/customer/cust_proc...

Then have a think. Then by all means contribute.

We don't have to all agree, but at least lets base our opinions on something more than the first brain fart that springs from our adrenal glands.

You should start a revolution Monkey-Wizard-Ken. It should serve to get some rebellion out of your system. Who knows? Maybe you might end up getting a reason for the ban? Or better yet, maybe you'll even manage to serve for the benefit of Rockstar's cause.

@Kanga

100% agree and sugest reading through Video Game Submission Guide as well (it takes a little digging to find). It is available here http://www.bbfc.co.uk/downloads/pub/Subm... and remember R* should have read it before hand.

Lol, Kangarootoo does 'brainfarts'

/gets coat

chicknstu
"Unrelated... but If you walked into your living room and saw your kid clutching a wii-mote, making a stabbing action, accompanied by the realisation of this on the screen, the squelching sounds, the screams, and a look of glee on your kids face..... how would it make you feel."

I would feel I was an embarrassment to the human race in my failure to be a responsible parent allowing my child access to adult material and I would turn myself into the closest police station. ;-)

Good on the BBFC I say, keep that piece of shit banned. I can't understand WHY people would want to play it anyway, according to guys that have had a go it's just continuous and gruesome killing pretty much all the way through. How is that enjoyable entertainment? ''Ohhh I've had a long hard day in work, how shall I relax this evening, ahhh yes I'll play a game where all that's asked of me is that I murder lots of folk using extremely sadistic methods''
Yes, yes lots of you will bang on about your rights and what not, but the line has to be drawn somewhere, or else what'll be next? 'Rockstar's Kiddy Fiddler Simulator 2008', ohh that's a bit wrong aint it? But hey, if a sick pervert wants a bash, and he's over 18, who are we to stop him, it's HIS right I guess.
And like a guy pointed out above, this isn't just a case of the BBFC being bastards, the fact is the vast majority of parents out there are fucking dense when it comes to age certificates on computer games, with most of them saying to their underage children ''Ohh, it's an 18 Timmy, are you sure this game wont be too DIFFICULT for you?''. It happens, alot! I work in Game and see it every day.
Until adults are more clued up, I believe it's right that overly sick shit like this is kept off of the shelves, so that there's absolutely no chance of the more impressionable minors out there getting hold of it.

This debate is all rather moot since none of us have played the game and thus can't really decide whether it shares anything with the way Hostel is set up. I, personally, found the first Hostel to be a rather refreshing angle for the usual teen slasher flick, and I appreciate what it implied in terms of human sadism and what "makes you a person like that".

If this game similarly explores the nature of that, then screw the fact that you ARE the killer, that's just a boon of the medium as you're inadvertedly going to "side" with the guy you play as opposed to a film where symphathy is the only tool available to achieve the same thing.

I remember back when we were all discussing Manhunt 1 and some said (including myself) that if the game is good then it deserves to exist. That's perhaps a narrow mindset, but I think the same is true here and now. If there's quality to back up and justify the angle of the game, then it earns its right to display that content. If it's a hamfisted attempt at shock and gore for shock and gore's sake, then we can really do well without. Good in this case is obviously tied to the morale of the game, or the conclusion one arrives at in the end. If the BBFC is to be believed, and I honestly have some faith in them, then the themes do not in any way objectively explore the topics mentioned above.

Sure, we can argue that it's up to us to decide whether we want it or not, but hey, "guns don't kill people, people do" some say to justify their availability. It's obviously not that simple, and the same applies with Chicknstu's example. If this is released, then you can bet your ass that kids everywhere will be playing it, good parents be damned. Maybe someone really should be deciding whether it's worth putting on shelves or not, and maybe someone has made the right choice.

just buy it on import. aren't ps3's region free anyway?

LOL, it's a video game on a console with very basic graphics, compare to films available in shops that children could also end up watching?

I EAT YOU FLESH AND I DRINK YOUR BLOOD

OR

ILSA SHE WOLF OF THE SS

lol THEN you will see REAL violence, blood, guts and boobs :)

@captainrentboy

'Rockstar's Kiddy Fiddler Simulator 2008', ohh that's a bit wrong aint it? But hey, if a sick pervert wants a bash, and he's over 18, who are we to stop him, it's HIS right I guess. "

No no no, that's imo completely different, there are some forms of media that are ILLEGAL, child pornography & simulated kiddy porn being two of them. Simulated voilence, horror, etc in movies and games is not against the law. I repeat, this ban is the BBFC saving their own arses, not wishing a repeat of the controversy of 2004 regarding the first installment of the game.

blah blah blah same old comments blah blah blah if Hostel can be released then why not this? blah blah blah

Weren't all the different points in this argument discussed - in a very coherenet and mature way, I should add - yesterday?

All these articles are doing is giving more publicity to this game, which is probably half-arsed anyway.

When it finally is released (which no doubt it will at some point), it'll sell by the lorryload simply on the back of all the publicity.

Rockstar + contraversy = regular occurance these days. All it adds up to is more ammunition for the Jack Thompson/Daily Mail reading idiots who think "games make killers."

Knock it off Rockstar...you showed with Table Tennis that you can actually make a decent game that doesn't court contraversy.

In other news, the Earth revolves around the Sun, night follows day (except at certain times of the year in the extreme North and South) and humans love nothing better than killing each other.

dcangel lives on Thundera (third earth) with his pet schnarf so yes it does..I think?

@Kyron: Watch your mouth or next time I'll go Lion-O on your ass. :P

Back on topic for a moment, I am actually surprised and a little disappointed that any edits Rockstar made weren't sufficient for the game to get a rating. There's only so much you can edit out before you change the essential nature of the game. That said, I had no plans to purchase it anyway, so it's not a big issue for me.

It would be cool if the BBFC admitted that the game was less gory, but was still banned anyway, because the game is just plain crap :)

Man, that is the kind of censorship agency we really need. No more Spider-Man 3 the game etc. "Manhunt 2 - banned by the BBFC for being shit" probably wouldnt't sell too many copies :)

"That's despite changes made by Rockstar to the game in a bid to meet the ratings board's requirements"

Changes made to make the AMERICAN ratings board's requirements. In their extended statement, the BBFC complained that Rockstar hadn't done anything to address their particular complaints.

"... represent a setback for videogames"

Not really. It's a setback ofor this particular game and maybe rockstar. But not for videogames in general. The rules were there in place before you made the hame - so a precedent is hardly being set.

Honestly ---- all those rough/tough/bad mutha games ... and yet they throw a hissy fit like this when they don't get their own way.

They know that real gamers will import the thing. They are just worried that their chav-demographic will miss out. F'k em.

Just change all the blood for candy, call the main character 'Schizocolate Toffeecide' and release it on the 360 as part of the Viva Pinata range.

Good plan. What's the antonym for 'viva' ?

I mean they could just leave it to imports, or even set up a UK based website, which would be the only place the game could be bought, so then only 18yr olds+ could buy it with their credit cards. Sure it wouldn't stop it falling into young hands entirely, but it would lessen the amount of young uns that could get hold of it.
But Rockstar need that 10-16 yr old age group, as I'm willing to bet it's those, pestering their parents for the game, that end up making up a very large percentage of the game's total sales.

"Muerte Pinata"?

"Morir Pinata"?

Anyway the BBC are reporting on a review into violence in video games and how to protect the children etc. Some commentators are holding this up as example that the current system is working and are hopeful the report will end up as "parent's need educating" as opposed to computer games are evil.

sigh. we're all adults and we can watch all sorts on the internet, its purely for the children and that really really annoys me.

@urban
"sigh. we're all adults and we can watch all sorts on the internet, its purely for the children and that really really annoys me."

Are you kidding me? Have you not heard about the new pornography laws in the UK? It would make viewing images of bondage illegal in the UK (even consenual).

Just because you view dodgy stuff on the net and you haven't been caught doesn't make it legal.

Yes, pressing the X button while viewing gore for enjoyment is totally different to just viewing gore for enjoyment...hmmm

/walks away...

They deserve this to be banned for making games that are only about gore. If the first Manhunt had ordinary killings without all the gore would it have gotten any attention at all based just on it's gameplay? Like hell would it.

You can kill the Little Sisters in Bioshock, but there are consequences for this act, and - crucially - you can also choose not to kill the Little Sisters.

@Kryon

"Yes, pressing the X button while viewing gore for enjoyment is totally different to just viewing gore for enjoyment...hmmm"

Shame on you. I have a big rubber stamp here with "OVERSIMPLIFICATION" written across it. As soon as I find my red ink pad, your post is in trouble.

I would just print all the discs as Region Free and encourage importing. Is that legal?