Resident Evil 5 Comments by Dan Whitehead

What's facile is you comparing a realistic game like GTA 4 to a zombie/infected shooter like RE 5.

Actually, that was MattDamon who made the comparison. I was pointing out why it wasn't a good comparison.

You see subtext where you want to see it, just as you see controversy coming for RE 5 because that's what you want to happen.

Can you also use your mind-reading powers to tell me what I want for tea? I'm getting hungry.

@ DanWhitehead
re. GTA4 didn't portray the entire population of New York as blood-crazed savages hellbent on tearing you to pieces.'

But Resident Evil 5 is a zombie game?! I would be disappointed if, after splashing out £40 for it, the game's locals didn't want to tear me the pieces! That's why people like Resident Evil games!

You've made some very good points in this thread, but I can't help but think that you're looking for things to offend you. Sure - as I haven't played the full game - there might very well be things there that shock me, but the examples you've raised thus far (eg. the blonde woman being dragged off and beaten) sound perfectly in line with what I'd expect from the series. (Though I eagerly await details on the more shocking scenes you've hinted at).

Using the above as an example - should we be seeing a blonde, white lady being dragged off by a group of black men, or just a person being dragged off by some other people? Why focus on the race? Obviously, each person playing the game will bring there own knowledge and experiences to the table - and will therefore react differently - but 'white' violence being dished out to 'black' victims (or vice versa) shouldn't automatically drag up all the wrongs of history.

At the end of the day, Capcom have made the decision to set it in Africa. They have made some concessions (e.g. by including oriental and middle-eastern zombies) but when all is said and done, it's a Resident Evil game. That it is populated with violent and antagonistic locals shouldn't come as a surprise. And, personally, I think it's wrong to read too much into the race aspect.

Taken to an extreme (and to play devils advocate to some degree!), are you saying that black people should not be able to be featured in video games as 'the bad guy' because of age old prejudices and events? Should Africa be a no-go area for games developers? How offensive would it be to say to someone of african origin - 'We would like to use you're likeness as a zombie in this game, but because of the all the stereotypes associated with Africa, I don't think we can...'?

In my opinion, the solution to racism is for people to be accepting of each other and work towards inclusion. To make an issue out of RE5 is the work in the opposite direction, and just re-draw the lines. Black people can be zombie's too! They have that right!

"GTA4 didn't portray the entire population of New York as blood-crazed savages hellbent on tearing you to pieces."

That's you comparing GTA 4 to RE 5, while leaving out the fact that RE 5 is not trying to simulate a realistic city the size of NY.

Using the above as an example - should we be seeing a blonde, white lady being dragged off by a group of black men, or just a person being dragged off by some other people?

No, you should be seeing a long-haired blonde, white, highly photogenic lady wearing a lacey black night dress who has no apparent reason to be hanging around a South African shanty town being dragged off, beaten and virally impregnated by a group of black men. There's no question that it's a racially informed (not to mention mildly misogynistic) sequence.

@MattDamon

Man, your post just has strawmen coming out of the ears. Both paragraphs centre on presenting me with a provocative question, apparently representing my point of view. You then go on to lay out how my apparent point of view (as "accurately" described by your questions) is rubbish.

With that in mind, lets start from the beginning.


"So you claim an entire race can be depicted in an art form?"

Well as I understand art, isn't the point that it can depict anything it wants?

I'm not actually sure you are really asking the right question. I think the right question is "Do you think art should legitimately and morally attempt to depict an entire race?", and you seem pretty set on the idea that my answer would be yes.

My actual answer would be "It depends on the depiction in question - what its motives are, what its truths are, what it attempts to suggest to the viewer and whether it attempts to lead the viewer".



"So there's no violence in Africa? Nigerians have been kidnapping oil workers and killing them on a near daily basis. That's fact!!"

I don't see the connection. This discussion is not, and never was, purely about the setting or the fact that some of the enemy characters are black. It is about the specific ways in which that environment is represented and depicted. Dan has made several references on that basis... do I really need to repeat them?

"If someone make a movie in which hundreds of evil demon bankers are trying to steal all the money, gold and jewels in the world, and the bankers are all big-nosed Jews, having the director declare "But they're really demons who used to be Jews" doesn't make the concept any less racist, just as the fact that some Jewish people actually do work in finance doesn't make the fiction any more appropriate. "

Frankly thats a very bad analogy. There would need to be a reason for all the bankers actually being Jewish, which would imply a motive on the part of the director. In RE5 the reason that people are being turned into savages is because an INDISCRIMINATE virus is attacking anyone who encounters it, and the locals happen to be black.. hardly surprising given the setting. It's no different in theory to previous games. And I still disagree that the images/content released so far portray some kind of racist imagery, and it's a huge jump being made by far-left liberals.

Of course the setting makes it important that Capcom are careful, as one slip up could infect the rest of the game with nasty overtones. But we'll see what it is you're keeping secret. At the moment I can't see any difference between this and Uncharted.

Even the PS3 vs. 360 faceoff articles are less obvious attempts to generate clicks than the third page of this preview.

@Feanor

Nice come back. Very well done. If only I had thought of calling you a prick in the first place, maybe my case would have been more effectively made.... or perhaps not.

The comment you made had already been made, and countered, previously in the thread. Which is why I pointedly suggested you hadn't read the thread. If you are going to repeat sections of it, what else are people supposed to think?

Dan has subsequently repeated himself for probably the fourth time, explaining the issue more eloquently than I clearly can.

"This is the sort of literal approach to the issue that really doesn't hold water outside of the rather insular gaming world"

You just seem, by accident or on purpose - I can't tell, unable to take that on board. This feels like one of those situations where someone has made their mind up, and then just finds ways to support their point of view. You and I don't have to agree, but the debate that could exist is starting to feel like trying to teach a cat to juggle.


I think this sums things up for me.

"I'm actually depressed enough to stop reading this thread.
Dan, I strongly suspect that if people haven't got what you're saying by now, they're just not going to."

Its the reason I said I wouldn't get into the discussion, and yet here I am. Lesson learned.

@DanWhitehead

What exactly is your point with GTA4 and RE5 then Dan? If GTA4 is the more realistic then surely it is the more offensive, particularly to Eastern Europeans being "realistically" portrayed as criminals. RE5, by your admission, is more of a fantasy setting. Surely that dilutes any racism that can be conferred from it?

Sure you are not just sh't stirring for page hits again.....

@ dirigiblebill
It's only a racially informed sequence if you're focussing on the races of the characters involved.

Personally, I see people, not races. I expect you'll call me naive (or indeed a idealist...).

"Sure you are not just sh't stirring for page hits again....."

More strawman. If you can't undermine the point of view, undermine the speaker. It says a lot about your own point of view as much as anything.

@ Gaol
Excellent point well made.

@kangarootoo

Is there a point wrapped up in that babble you just posted? Seriously. if there is, keep it short and sweet next time round and I'll be sure to respond.

If you truly believe that the game is racist propaganda, then don't play it.

Is that what you think people should do when they suspect racist propaganda... just ignore it and hope it will go away? I predict the BNP will be asking for your phone number.

I was hoping for some word of improvement in either the AI on display or the controls, so it looks like this one is still on the "meh" list for me.

The racism debate is interesting - many people appear to having difficulty seeing things from other people's point of view here - something which I assume stems from a desire to "win" whatever competition you think you are in.

By all accounts, and I've not played the finished game so this is just going on what has been said, the game portrays a large number of black people performing some pretty horrible acts - by the sound of things this is not only being done by "infected" individuals. The volume, and intensity of these acts is not the point, their historical significance or meaning is not the point - these things will only affect you if you are already inherently biased in your reception of such imagery.

I didn't spot the caption at the beginning of the demo saying - "this is a true and accurate portrayal of the continent and peoples of Africa", probably because it wasn't there. If they have added one since the demo then I will accept that changes everything.

I have to say that I think, again I've not seen the extent of what is presented in this game so am prepared to take this back, that Capcom should be as allowed to show a woman of any racial background being dragged away by men of any racial background, if they feel it is relevant and necessary for their production. I don't see how we can hope to live in a world that is "non-racist" until we treat everyone equally - should we censor our world because of the people out there who are already radical in their views?

The only way to get past the "all the people you meet in the game are hell-bent on killing you" situation would be to create the game so that each individuals play through encountered an exactly equal number of both nice and nasty people - of all ethnic backgrounds, so that the game featured you doing things in every location so as not to contextualise the actions, so that the game had you play for equal lengths of time as a person of every racial background (and sex for that matter)... and it goes on - it is impossible to create something that won't affect someone - whether it be in believing it to be racist or in allowing it to affect their existing prejudices. The only real point of interest is where, or if, we draw the line.

If people perceive this as being representative of Africa, Africans, Black people, White people.. etc. then that is staggeringly ignorant. But they will - thousands will take this as reinforcement of their own views of those subjects, there is nothing that we, or the makers of this game can do to stop that - the real questions that should be raised from this are -

Should something that is not intended to be racist (or representative of a culture or place), but which will undoubtedly be received by many individuals in a way that reinforces their racist views, be allowed to be released? And,

Why are we still living in a society where people are so ready to allow something such as this to influence their views of any race?

@kangarootoo

"If you can't undermine the point of view, undermine the speaker. It says a lot about your own point of view as much as anything."

You see I actually did both, while you only tried the latter.

That's you comparing GTA 4 to RE 5, while leaving out the fact that RE 5 is not trying to simulate a realistic city the size of NY.

No, that's me responding to MattDamon's question as to whether New Yorkers should be offended that GTA 4 was based on their city.

@MattDamon
Is there a point wrapped up in that babble you just posted? Seriously. if there is, keep it short and sweet next time round and I'll be sure to respond.

He is referring to the way your postings fail the most basic tests of a solid argument. Because you've never actually bothered to learn how to form a proper argument, his words are going straight over your head.

Here are some words/expressions to look up in Wikipedia: "Fallacy", "Straw Man", "Ad Hominem". If you can read and understand those articles, you might then understand kangarootoo's posts.

@ dirigiblebill
It's only a racially informed sequence if you're focussing on the races of the characters involved.

Personally, I see people, not races. I expect you'll call me naive (or indeed a idealist...).

More wilfully blinkered, I think :)

It's not just that Capcom decided to use a white woman rather than a black woman (which would have made far, far more sense within the narrative) for that sequence, it's that the woman is so prominently, shockingly white. For a moment or two I thought I was watching a scene from some Victorian gothic novel.

@ Jenuall
You've hit the nail on the head with that post.

Because kangaroo thinks a point has been countered, it can't be mentioned again in the thread? Dear oh dear.

Dan and you can claim the literal approach to RE 5 doesn't hold water outside the gaming world and that the racist subtext is obvious till you're blue in the face, but it doesn't make it fact, just an opinion that's straight out of the very insular world of liberal guilt. Why can't you take that on board?

@MattDamon

I'm honestly not sure what to think now. Should I stick to shorter sentences or something? Tell me how to help you here and I'll do it.

/reads on

Oh thank christ for m0thr4's post. I was starting to think I'd had a stroke or something.

This is what I meant when I talked about teaching a cat to juggle. I'm saying what hand goes where, and the cat just wants to eat or sleep. I never should have got involved in the discussion, as I knew the majority of page residents weren't up to it. This time, lesson actually learned.

@ dir
re. 'it's that the woman is so prominently, shockingly white'

And what...pray tell.....is the definition of 'whiteness' that you are basing that comment on? Are blonde people more white than brunettes? I have brown hair - how 'white' am I?

@mother4

What are the basic tests of a solid argument?

@ dirigiblebill:

Have you got a link to a clip of this scene?

"Should something that is not intended to be racist (or representative of a culture or place), but which will undoubtedly be received by many individuals in a way that reinforces their racist views, be allowed to be released? "

Good question, and very current (ie cartoons of Mohamed) - what is you stance?

Hard cases make bad law and all that...

@ dir
re. 'it's that the woman is so prominently, shockingly white'

And what...pray tell.....is the definition of 'whiteness' that you are basing that comment on? Are blonde people more white than brunettes? I have brown hair - how 'white' am I?

I mean the depiction conforms to a very widely promulgated popular stereotype of Anglo-Saxon whiteness - bleached blonde, porcelain-skinned, high cheekbones (possibly even blue-eyed as well, if I remember right). I guess you'll have to watch it to be persuaded of this, but believe me - it's an entirely non-naturalistic, provocative portrayal.

"I never should have got involved in the discussion, as I knew the majority of page residents weren't up to it. This time, lesson actually learned."

I think you've shown that you're the one who's not up to it.

Sadly not, Feanor - we're not allowed to lift screens or footage from the preview build.

@MattDamon

If you are genuinely interested, dip into these when you have a spare minute of reading time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_(l...

and for a few of those references m0thr4 mentioned.

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4073
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4074

I see the racism apologists, all caucasian no doubt and none of whom ever having suffered racism in their lives, are in fine fettle today.

This thread, together with a cursory listen to the types of conversations that you hear on Xbox Live, serve as marvellous proof that the world of video gaming has a long way to go before its ball drop.

@Feanor

"Because kangaroo thinks a point has been countered, it can't be mentioned again in the thread? Dear oh dear.

"Dan and you can claim the literal approach to RE 5 doesn't hold water outside the gaming world and that the racist subtext is obvious till you're blue in the face, but it doesn't make it fact, just an opinion that's straight out of the very insular world of liberal guilt. Why can't you take that on board?"

Plus one!!

A closing comment, as I have clearly been misunderstood.

I'm no liberal apologist. On the subject of ResE5's "race row" I sit somewhere between. I don't think they are being overtly racist, but I do think they are being unwise (read as "a bit dim") in some of their choices.


The reason I get vocal is not because I disagree with someone on any given point. It is because I can't help but respond when I see someone dismiss another point of view in a clumsy or illogical way.

I've argued the case several times on this site for points of view I don't agree with, purely because I have seen a bunch of people band together to dismiss said point of view without even knowing WHY.

Many of the commentators who believe there is no racist overtines whatsoever in the subject matter have been two steps away from citing "just because" as the foundation of their reason. And that sort of shit just winds me up.

Goodness me. I wish I hadn't come back. And, as someone else said, here I am again.

"If you think it's racist, don't play it" as yet another comment that misses the point so spectacularly, the poser might as well be sat in an American A-10 tank-buster trying to decide whether they're shooting at the Eye-raqis or their purported allies.

The point is not that I think it's "racist". The point is not whether Dan thinks it's racist. The point is not whether it is, in fact, coded by a Klansman and marketed by the White Supremacists of America Boys Club and Sailing Society.

The point, you slow, slow little man / men, is that it will look racist and carry all those unpleasant colonial overtones within it to lots, and lots, and lots of people. There is nothing else to debate. The answer is that you don't feel / see / understand that. Great. You were brought up in a world where you never had that sort of sinister messaging around you. Lucky little man.

The only thing you need to get through your head is that plenty of people did. Some of them play games. Some of them write for newspapers. Some of them take their opportunities to soapbox to the media. Some of them are genuinely socially-responsible people with genuine points of view that are worth listening to. All else is bluster, bullshit, and your narrow view of the world

@kangarootoo

The facts I was referring to were the examples mentioned earlier in the thread about Mugabe's regime and life on the ground in Zimbabwe. Brutality, rampant disease and so forth. That situation is indisputable. It's a reality in the world today. To me that reality gives Capcom all the licence they need to set their game in a poor, brutalised African republic.
I must also add that they could set the game in Africa even if there was no factual parallel because it's fiction, and fiction does not require reality to be successful (but it can help).

What I go against throughout this thread is the fear of perception, the fear of labelling, and the extraordinary over-reaction to a game's setting. My point is that the scramble to decry racism promotes racism as a corollary. This form of political correctness is self-defeating.

@m0thr4

I find your posts particularly grating. You throw out allegations of racism like confetti and seem to think that you have some marvellous insight into the hidden heart of Africa because you have travelled there. For someone to have a negative opinion on the political track record of African states since colonialism does not make them a racist. But your actions do mark you out as a labeller. Who are you trying to impress?

m0thr4 is actually calling people out for ad hominem? really?

Jenuall gets it. +1

i actually don't even see colour. it's not that good, though - can't read the papers for shit.

@kangarootoo

Well you are well off the mark, and in fact, downright insulting with those links. If you'd stuck to the actual topic, I'd have more respect for you

I set out my stall very early and have backed it up.

I think Capcom could be perceived as being offensive to Africans with this game, but I believe racism requires actual intent to inflict harm on a person/people because of their race, and I don't for a minute believe that's what Capcom were aiming to do.

It's like murder and manslaughter, if you didn't mean to kill, your guilty of the lesser charge. Capcom are guilty of causing offense, not being racist.

Dan has actually classed scenes in the game now as being "racist" - not "others may perceive this as being racist" - he's actually on record as saying it is racist.

DanWhitehead
05-Feb-09 16:08:01

"Not in the chapters I played. Just because Chris Redfield isn't constantly muttering racist epithets as he guns people down doesn't stop the specific imagery of the white-woman-stealing African savage from being racist."

That's a heavy claim to lay on capcom. By dictionary definition

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Have Capcom really done that?

Whereas offense

a. The act of causing anger, resentment, displeasure, or affront.
b. The state of being offended.
2.
a. A violation or infraction of a moral or social code; a transgression or sin.
b. A transgression of law; a crime.
3. Something that outrages moral sensibilities

blah.

if a white dude shoots black dudes. RACIST! 1)
if a black dude shoots black dudes. RACIST! 2)
if a black dude shoots white dudes. RACIST! 3)
if a white dude shoots white dudes. RACIST! 4)

1) because anybody shooting black dudes (in Africa - I mean there are no Innuit there, right?) is RACIST.
2) see 1)
3) that's RACIST because it makes black dudes look like bad dudes.
4) that's EVEN MORE RACIST because there isn't even a black dude!

GOSH, what isn't racist these days? If you drive a Toyota you're racist... blah.

My point is that the scramble to decry racism promotes racism as a corollary. This form of political correctness is self-defeating.

A fair point. But the fact remains that racism exists in every society, and not always - indeed, rarely - in easily identifiable and counterable ways. To write off any accusation of racist content which admits the faintest shadow of a doubt as knee-jerk political correctness would be destructively naive.

Marco: Well, Debbie thinks this is all about her biological clock.
Stormy: She stopped screaming enough to tell you that?
Marco: No no no no, the other Debbie. Debbie the teacher.
Stormy: Oh, you mean... black Debbie.
Sparks: Woah woah woah, why is she... black Debbie?
Stormy: Not in a bad way, it's just to tell them apart because she's... black.
Sparks: Well, why don't you call her Debbie, and call the other one... white Debbie.
Stormy: White Debbie? That's stupid! I know she's white.
Marco: Then why do you call the other Debbie "black Debbie?" You know she's black!
Stormy: Hey, first off, I really don't think we should be talking about this in front of Dr. Quinn.
Quinn: Listen man, you're missing the point. What if everybody went around calling you "white Stormy?"
Stormy: You mean there's a black Stormy?
Quinn: ... No.

Almost zero relevance but I do love me some Sealab 2021

@DanWhitehead So is it better than Dead Space?

Ooooooh, I can't wait.

"All it will take is for one mainstream media outlet to show the heroic Chris Redfield stamping on the face of a black woman, splattering her skull, and the controversy over Manhunt 2 will seem quaint by comparison. If we're going to accept this sort of imagery in games then questions are going be asked, these questions will have merit, and we're going to need a more convincing answer than "lol it's just a game.""

a very good point.

Maybe the point of such imagery is to provoke such debate. Raise questions like 'well when you do those violent things to white people it's ok but once you perform the same virtual acts against a distinct minority it becomes an issue of race'. It's quite a complicated issue with no easy answers, as most racial issues are. Nothing, when it comes to matters like this, is - if you'll excuse the turn of phrase - black and white.

Whether those questions are worth asking in this context (a video game) is a different matter entirely.

The fact that the majority of the gamer community tends to be, how to put this gently - intellectually unstimulated and living in an insulated, secure, middle class bubble means that thoughtful, considered debate on this matter is unlikely to occur (which is why I have not bothered to read most of this thread, but I can guess it goes along these lines: 'it's racist' 'no it isn't').

I will say this: gamers are often too quick to defend videogames against criticisms that are levelled at them, when many criticisms can raise legitimate concerns. The medium is going nowhere, there is no need to be so defensive.

lol....its just a game!

To write off any accusation of racist content which admits the faintest shadow of a doubt as knee-jerk political correctness would be destructively naive.

I agree with that. The Rodney King beating - fair enough: racist assault. Resi 5's setting and set pieces: move along.

regardless of race, the head stomping is in bad taste, but the boot stamping on a human face is a simbol of opression, and when its a muscular clean cut whiteman, stamping on the face of a skinny, impoverished black woman, with white man's (or more specifically England, Spain, and France's) opression of black Africans, well it's easily to see the symbolism, and whether it was, intentional, or more likely just Capcom's lack of understanding, is irrelevant, intended or not, the symbolism still exists.

Now I hate double standards, as a white Irish man, I can honestly say, that neither my country, or my ancestors ever opressed black people, and personally I think, racial sensitivity is still far too high, it really should be a non issue these days, if people keep dwelling on it, it will never go away....

To write off any accusation of racist content which admits the faintest shadow of a doubt as knee-jerk political correctness would be destructively naive.

I agree with that. The Rodney King beating - fair enough: racist assault. Resi 5's setting and set pieces: move along.

You wouldn't be naively and destructively writing off an accusation of racist content, would you?

Are video gamers racist morons? Evidence for the prosecution :RE5. Evidence against ... erm ... Braid or some other game no-one that doesn't play games has ever heard of.

There is AT LEAST a problem of perception here, whether Capcom intended this analysis or they didn't non-gaming people will see it that way. But the problem is actually much wider and extends to the fact that many, many people (ask my wife) note that the vast majority of games we like playing involve shooting people with big guns or punching them / stabbing them with knives. If we're not all morons, how come so many of our games require the emotional maturity of an 11 year old?

Whether the problem in this particular case (RE5) is more than just perception we'll have to wait and see, but the bottom line is .. it doesn't look very good to be shooting all these black people in the face.

Maybe I'm just getting old.

We can argue amongst ourselves as to whether or not RE5 is racist until we're blue in the face, but all this means is that when the videogame-hating media get a hold of this, and they ask gamers for their opinion, do you know what they'll print?

"Lol, it's just a game"

"RE4 was about Spanish people and nobody complained"

"Anyone who says this game is racist is a racist themselves"

"What, we can't have games set in Africa or something?"

"What, we're not allowed to have black people as bad guys or something?"

And this will be the collective voice of video gamers across the globe: fucking stupid non-arguments that don't stand up to any scrutiny by intelligent adults.

Then some busybody in the Government decides that maybe RE5 is actually breaking the law on "incitement to racial hatred" and moves to get it banned. The opposing arguments from the videogame community? "If you don't like it, don't play it" and "RE5 will be GOTY, get over it".

Thus the very people who think they are defending our passion against political correctness end up being the ones hammering the final nail into its coffin.... all because they are too fucking stupid/arrogant to engage in a sensible debate.

We need to have this debate, agree to disagree on some points, and then collectively come up with a sensible response that defends video games in general, rather than one particular game. We will have to accept that might mean openly condemning games like RE5 in order to defend everything else.

No one seems to understand that the issue is with the imagery on show, and its relation recent history and stereotyping, rather than with black and white people.

In the same way that it would be quite insensitive to have a drink drive Diana simulator, a suicide bomb / gas the Jews simulator, or a kamikaze the US skyscraper simulator.

There are too many empty headed children in here to even begin to be bothered expecting an understanding. Those, plus the others who just want to hate, but are scared or angry at being branded a 'racist', with the negative stigma attatched these days.

Have a read of 'Heart of Darkness', by Joseph Conrad, and learn about some of the horrific events that took place on the continent of Africa over the past 5 centuries. Look at teh 'science' that justified peoples' actions, and some of the views and principles that shaped the law in countries like the USA, Australia and South Africa until very recently.

Open your eyes a little before even commenting. I wouldn't say the game is 'racist' - I haven't played it - to begin with. I'll wait and see how insensitive or ignorant some of the imagery that makes it into the finished game turns out to be.

/waits...