Ratings board doesn't take games seriously - Eggebrecht

By Tom Bramwell Published 20 August, 2007

Wants more grown-up sex.

Factor 5 president Julian Eggebrecht has said that games' inability to include sexual content, satirical jokes and fantasy violence without degrees of censure are symptoms of a wider problem with ratings - and said that he didn't feel the US Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB) took the medium seriously as an artform.

"I would be happy if in games we could talk about homosexuality, but we're not even at the point where we can admit that humans have heterosexual relationships, and that is a real problem - and it tends to show that games are not being seen, even by our own ratings boards, as an artform," he told attendees at the Games Convention Developer's Conference in Germany.

Eggebrecht devoted much of his keynote address on the first morning of GCDC to attacking the US Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB) over ratings problems encountered developing PS3 title Lair, and drew attention to various examples.

One of these was a satirical video of a real-life coffee maker hidden behind a cheat code in Lair - a reference to the presence of unfinished sexual content in the original release of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas. "Everyone thought it was hilarious...but we couldn't call the cheat 'Hot Coffee', because that would imply we were mocking the authorities investigating Hot Coffee."

"If you cannot have satire about these things, that is approaching the realm of McCarthyism," he said.

In a speech that regularly drew comparisons between the use of violence and sex in film and videogames, Eggebrecht called on his fellow developers to include more sexual content in games. "I want to see a game with real sexual content in a store here in Germany - I don't think it will happen unless we really recognise games as an artform," he told the audience. He pointed to Stanley Kubrick film Eyes Wide Shut, which "discusses relationship issues that you have in a marriage". "You don't have that in games - it is time to wake up and make it happen."

It was during this phase of his speech that Eggebrecht referred to Hot Coffee, defending embattled publisher Rockstar. "How a game can be drawn off the shelves based on a cheat in which you can barely see something that might be interpreted as a sexual act - as an Easter Egg no less - is absolutely beyond me, when at the same time movies have been pushing the envelope for a long time," he said.

Eggebrecht also called on the ESRB to introduce a new American rating between the Teen and Mature badges, arguing that neither was suitable for games like Lair whose innate appeal is to teenage gamers, but whose content is fantasy violence that can be viewed from custom angles - something of a sticking point for censors.

Factor 5 had been forced to excise various elements of Lair's violence because, while publisher Sony sought a Teen rating, the ESRB repeatedly objected to spurts of blood and organic aircraft being blown into visible "chunks", forcing the developer into a time consuming and "hugely problematic" cycle of submissions, Eggebrecht said.

"On the one hand they objected to this, but they let us through with a Teen even though you can use fire - you can set up to five, six thousand people on fire. They burn, they run around and they scream, but of course that wasn't a problem [due to the absence of blood]."

He called the submissions process "a charade". "It's a flat out bizarre system...It makes it even harder for games than movies because we don't have the intermediate ratings." Although there were obvious parallels between the way game content could be tweaked to fit ratings guidelines, and the way that film directors were able to remove frames or frame violence artistically so that disgusting or shocking acts were alluded to rather than literally seen, the gap between Teen and Mature ratings and the ESRB's awkwardness were a source of agitation, he explained.

"They don't really tell you what they will object to - they just say 'well, follow the standards that have been set before', which is a problem if you want to push the envelope," he added.

Despite this, Eggebrecht encouraged his fellow developers to continue pushing against the boundaries of what was acceptable in order to establish games as an artform. He concluded: "I hope that we actually can prove that this is an artform. Show me something that proves on all levels that games are indeed an artform - push the violence, but also push the sex, and push it in an artistic way where it's not really gratuitous, but where it gets my thinking brain going."

Picture of Tom.

About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

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Comments (69) Latest comment 5 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • SniperWolf #1 5 years ago

    Yawn not this again, Nintendo, MS and Sony are not going to allow hardcore porn on their consoles, don't cry about it Mr Eggbelly or whatever your name is.

  • jack_klugman #2 5 years ago

    Wasn't the sexual content removed from the US version of Fahrenheit because of aggressive content rating?

  • aldo_14 #3 5 years ago

    Methinks in a world where you can have stuff like 9 Songs (admittedly at the extreme end) released rated 18 in movies, the treatment of adult-rated games is more than a bit prudish and immature.

    Granted, there's a danger that the nature games would inherently restrict sex to be something rather pointless or cheesy, but someone should be able to try.

  • SniperWolf #4 5 years ago

    And he wants homosexuality in games, well it's been done. Gears of war, FFXII, MGS4

    three of the gayest games ever made.
    Edited by 1 at 20/08/07 @ 10:48

  • afghan_jones #5 5 years ago

    Not going to happen.

    Games cost too much to make for developers to take risks on overly controversial subjects.

    Also, while film has audiences whose tastes vary wildly, the people who enjoyed films tackling difficult subject matter like Brokeback Mountain, Boys dont Cry etc are not the sort of people who purchase games and games consoles

  • brainbird #6 5 years ago

    I don't know what it says about you, SniperWolf, when sex is always hardcore porn to you.

  • Machiavel #7 5 years ago

    Hmm, "also push the sex... in an artistic way... where it gets my thinking brain going."

    going, "Hmm, time for a wank..."

  • afghan_jones #8 5 years ago

    although i do agree with him that ratings can be kinda balls with games. The whole Hot coffee thing was ludicrous that acts of random violence against the elderly, the police, etc, plus myriad lesser crimes are ok content, but some laughably unsexy sex featuring clothed character models is unacceptable is just weird.

  • Pac #9 5 years ago

    Perhaps they could introduce some better parental controls so it would allow more freedom for content providers to include more adult themed material.

    On second thoughts they have done this on Sky movies and it is a right pain. Means you have got to put in a four digit code whenever you watch a movie rated 12+ before 9pm (every time you stop or start it!!).

  • Moz #10 5 years ago

    Has this guy not played the Sims 2 or Fable.

    Yes I know neither game is graphic but they do both have a lot of sexual relationships in them both stright and gay.

  • dominalien #11 5 years ago

    Sexual content in Fahrenheit was so lame (not form, but context), that it makes me think the game would have been better without it.

  • jack_klugman #12 5 years ago

    dominalien - I agree largely. It did feel a little unnecessary. That said it is a concern when content has to be removed for a specific region because it won't make it past the censor (violent content in Germany, sexual content in the US, etc).

  • jack_klugman #13 5 years ago

    Plus its a fundemental hypocricy when you allow horrifically violent games, but aggressively censor sexual content.

  • Krun #14 5 years ago

    @
    "And he wants homosexuality in games, well it's been done. Gears of war, FFXII, MGS4

    three of the gayest games ever made."

    true all those games are fairly gay, although I think the censor board would have a fit if the lead characters in GOW Kiss at the end of the game.

    I seem to remember when i was a kid lots of games and game magazine used to have scantily clad women on the covers. obviously 8-bit nudity wasn't actually in most of those games, but sex was used to sell them.

    It is an odd world we live in where it is acceptable to depict realist War and blood soaked walls. But show any kind of "sexy" content and we have cries for censorship. What are we protection ourselves from anyway? What does it say about our society?

    Edited by 1 at 20/08/07 @ 11:19

  • Freek #15 5 years ago

    It's not hardcore porn he's on about, it's sexuality handled in a mature way.
    But movies in America suffer the same fate. As soon as you try to include more complicated subjects like that you get an NC 17 rating which is the mark of death since many cinemas won't show it and Wall Mart won't stock the DVDs.

    It's censorship through a different means, which ironically is what the ratings were supposed to prevent from happening.

  • Orange #16 5 years ago

    He makes a good point about the general conservatism of the ratings, I like to see games push the envelope even if it's not always content I would want to play. It's good to have the choice and occasionally a classic will turn up.

  • Steroyd #17 5 years ago

    Oh yeah I remember Duke Nukem 3D or 64 why was that rated 18 I was too young to understand how to play that game without cheating to the last level and the most 18 rated thing I saw was a pixelated lady dancing.

  • Schiraman #18 5 years ago

    I think he makes some very good points there.

    And sure, sex in games is likely to be mostly lame - at least to begin with - but is that a good reason to censor it? As adults, surely there should be no reason we can't have mature themes of all kinds in our games.

    Also, just as a society in general, isn't it about time we stopped being so shocked and scared by sex all the time?

  • robg #19 5 years ago

    "we're not even at the point where we can admit that humans have heterosexual relationships"

    Rubbish. Admitting a relationship and displaying sex are obviously different things. If he has to use nonsense like this to push his argument then he's not worth listening to. You don't need to add porn into your medium to have it respected as an art form.

  • woodnotes #20 5 years ago

    Lair sucks Julian, get the hell over it.

    Oh wait, this is something different...
    Edited by 1 at 20/08/07 @ 11:59

  • NewYork #21 5 years ago

    I still won't buy GoW because of that booby minigame.

  • aldo_14 #22 5 years ago


    Rubbish. Admitting a relationship and displaying sex are obviously different things. If he has to use nonsense like this to push his argument then he's not worth listening to. You don't need to add porn into your medium to have it respected as an art form.

    Albeit how many games have an actual adult (in tone, not shagging on screen) relationship between a man and woman in it? I can't really think of anything beyond a brief section of Strike Commander (offhand) in the early-mid 90s.

  • Daryoon #23 5 years ago

    I've seen plenty of hetrosexual relationships in games...

  • Les #24 5 years ago

    "Games cost too much to make for developers to take risks on overly controversial subjects.

    Also, while film has audiences whose tastes vary wildly, the people who enjoyed films tackling difficult subject matter like Brokeback Mountain, Boys dont Cry etc are not the sort of people who purchase games and games consoles"

    Continuing with this stupid censorship will make sure games never reach general acceptance.

  • Lunaticorc #25 5 years ago

    "Also, while film has audiences whose tastes vary wildly, the people who enjoyed films tackling difficult subject matter like Brokeback Mountain, Boys dont Cry etc are not the sort of people who purchase games and games consoles"

    Perhaps they don't buy games due to lack of choice. Most games have pretty crappy stories and writing. If there were more games like Planescape: Torment and Fahrenheit then perhaps people who currently find games childish would buy more games? And that's what Eggebrecht is tyring to aim for. Get some serious story content into games so that people who enjoy more intelligent things don't feel like games are a complete waste of time.

    Lucky for me i can enjoy both cheesy and not so cheesy things. Unfortunantely as i grow older i find myself craving more for games with substance but the current gaming market is heavily tilted towards cheesy.
    Edited by 1 at 20/08/07 @ 12:37

  • aine #26 5 years ago

    Also, while film has audiences whose tastes vary wildly, the people who enjoyed films tackling difficult subject matter like Brokeback Mountain, Boys dont Cry etc are not the sort of people who purchase games and games consoles

    Bollocks.

    that's an incredibly sweeping and inaccurate generalisation to make. of course people who enjoy those sorts of films buy video games. me, for example. a majority of gamers may always be the sorts of people who only buy the latest FIFA and movie licenses, but the same goes for films as well - i'm willing to bet more people went to see brainless shite like Rush Hour 3 than Brokeback Mountain. very few games actually cater to that audience, but that's not because the audience doesn't exist - it's generally because publishers and ratings boards (and, to some extent, the media) aren't willing to let developers take risks with more mature subject matter.
    Edited by 1 at 20/08/07 @ 12:49

  • smoison #27 5 years ago

    But neither SOny, Nintendo or Microsoft allow AO (Adult) games on thier consols.

    That should give you a clue of why games are aimed at children more then anyone else

  • robg #28 5 years ago

    @aldo_14

    Ok I'm sure that's true, but that doesn't really have anything to do with anything I was saying :)

  • jack_klugman #29 5 years ago

    Also, while film has audiences whose tastes vary wildly, the people who enjoyed films tackling difficult subject matter like Brokeback Mountain, Boys dont Cry etc are not the sort of people who purchase games and games consoles

    Bollocks.

    that's an incredibly sweeping and inaccurate generalisation to make.

    Nah, on the whole video games players are morons.

  • kangarootoo #30 5 years ago

    @Sniperwolf

    "Nintendo, MS and Sony are not going to allow hardcore porn on their consoles"

    In what way did he actually suggest that should be the case? Can you really only define sex in two ways, either complete absence, or porn? What a varied life you must have lived.


    @afghan_jones

    "Also, while film has audiences whose tastes vary wildly, the people who enjoyed films tackling difficult subject matter like Brokeback Mountain, Boys dont Cry etc are not the sort of people who purchase games and games consoles"

    What?! What kind of statement to make is that. One of the largest selling games of all time was the Sims. Does that really suggest to you that the majority of gamers can't watch anything by Steve Seagal films? You seem to confusing a vocal minority of insecure adolescent internet gamers with the entire planet.

  • kangarootoo #31 5 years ago

    @jack_klugman

    As I said in my previous post. Morons shout loudest, hence the clieched term "vocal minority".

    The majority of gamers are normal people, they don't flip out every time Raiden from MGS gets mentioned, they don't think Gears of War characters are aspirational, they have girlfriends that they respect, they have no particularly strong feelings about whether Nintendo "make games for kids", and most importantly they don't write on internet forums like this one.

    I fit most of the above, but for some reason, here I am none the less :)

  • kangarootoo #32 5 years ago

    @Wonga

    "which effectively a ban, for the mildest sexual content you could imagine"

    Lets not be sensationalist about it now. The content in question was a lengthy animated cutscene of two people clearly shagging. Pretty mild stuff if it turned up in a 15 film I agree (which is where the hypocrisy lies), but I could probably imagine milder sexual content and as far as games go it stood out like a sore thumb.

    Now I'm not saying I object to the content or agree with the ruling (I actually think the content was as approrpriate to the situation as in any film), but it wasn't exactly as mild as you describe.

    Max Payne is a good example of a mature script in a game that didn't really put any sex on the screen. Sex and death all get their coverage, but it is never done in a style of tittering teenage titiliation (the "will you watch my back" line in MP2 was a clever a piece of noir styled screenplay as I think I've ever heard in a game).

    I think we need to be clear about what it is we are objecting to, and that a mature objection is more likely to garner a mature response. Are we peeved because we are told a game cannot contain adult themes (as MP clearly did without any cuts), or are we simply annoyed that someone decided we can't see electronic boobs on our TVs (as in the case of Fahrenheit, which could have easily changed the cutscene and lost none fo the plot device)?

  • Arwin #33 5 years ago

    I agree 250% with Eggebrecht. The whole thing is ridiculous.

    That said, perhaps it is possible to in some way set a few flags in the game around certain effects that can be turned on and off, so you can have things according to your preference.

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #34 5 years ago

    I've seen plenty of hetrosexual relationships in games...

    I think he means heterosexual sexual relationships. Mario and peach may have a 'heterosexual releationship', but you don't know whether or not they're actually fucking.

  • kangarootoo #35 5 years ago

    @Wonga

    I'm referring specifically to you suggestion that it got banned "for the mildest sexual content you could imagine". I suggest it was not actually as mild as you suggest. In the context of what is normally present in games, it was pretty graphic. It was essentially softcore porn. I consider "the mildest I can imagine" to be more like someone snogging someone else on a TV soap.

  • Les #36 5 years ago

    "but I could probably imagine milder sexual content and as far as games go it stood out like a sore thumb."

    That's just the problem: It's not normal that there's so little sex in games compared to other, mature, types of media.

  • SniperWolf #37 5 years ago

    If you want to play games with sex in them then PC is the platform, you can get loli rape sims ect.

    I don't see why anyone would want to play games like that, and I'm kinda glad that that consoles have kept strict rules on sex in games. Why must every form of entertainment be home to smut. Not all of society is sex crazed animals that need porn on every gadget in their house.

    If you want cheap thrills go hire a hooker or use your PC for fapping.

  • Les #38 5 years ago

    "Not all of society is sex crazed animals that need porn on every gadget in their house."

    Have you been outside recently?! ;)

  • kangarootoo #39 5 years ago

    @Sniperwolf

    "If you want to play games with sex in them then PC is the platform, you can get loli rape sims ect. "

    Jesus christ, there you go again, declaring some apparently cast iron causal path between sex and rape! I'm starting to worry about you.


    "Why must every form of entertainment be home to smut."

    Do you consider every reference to the existance of sexuality to be smut? Can sex seriously not be included in media as part of an accurate representation of life? Sex does exist in real life you know, like the 'good type' of sex that doesn't include rape.

  • kangarootoo #40 5 years ago

    @Wonga

    "Contrast this sex scene to the violence that is allowed in games like Manhunt 1 for instance, and there is no way to rationalise it."

    I wholly agree there (not that a disgreed with your view of the way Fahrenheit was trested though). We seem to live in this bizarre world where a subjectively diverse sense of morality is viewed with much greater disdane than very objectively and actually harmful murder. Maybe its because plenty of otherwise seemingly moralistic people profit from murder every day

    There is a very good South Park episode covering that subject, its the one for download on XBLive as it happens :)

  • afghan_jones #41 5 years ago

    Ok, when I said that the market for more arthouse movies wasnt the same as the games industry I guess I needed to give more detail.

    Obviously there are people who will watch arthouse cinema, covering a wide variety of subjects who will also play videogames. (I include myself in this bracket.)

    What I meant was more that while the audiences for these two types of media may overlap at times, in general they are two very different groups.

    For good, or bad, games do not have the diversity because the market doesnt demand it as heavily.

    No, im not saying everything has to be like a Segal movie to sell on a console, obviously it doesnt but that doesnt change the fact that if EA released 'Eyes Wide Shut: The Game' it wouldnt shift a great deal of units.

    Actually it probably would but for the wrong reasons. Lets say 'Hard Candy:The Game' or 'Brokeback Mountain: The Game'

  • Nesty #42 5 years ago

    he's dead on.

  • kangarootoo #43 5 years ago

    @afghan_jones

    The games market is smaller, and gaming requires a bit more buy in than film watching (a games system of some sort, whereas everyone already has a TV or lesg the walk to cinema).

    Actually though (with my pedant hat on), what you are now describing is something else.

    What you previously said was that people who are into varying types of film content aren't the sorts of people that buy games and games consoles.

    You are now saying that the majority of games players have limited taste in games, and that they wouldn't be into games that contain certain types of content.

    I'm sure you can see that those two descriptions are not of the same thing. It is perfectly possible that someone who has very varied tastes in films does not find that variety reflected in their choice of games. That is a far cry from deciding whether someone is likely to be a gamer by referring to their film watching habits. Whether a certain type of film would translate into game form effectively was not part of your original point.

  • RexRunti #44 5 years ago

    I've always thought their should be more sex in games. Though it doesn't have to be graphic (like when Films first realised the could two people shagging and every movie had at least one gratuitos shot in it). Also I think this is a problem caused by one country, the US as the attitude to sex is hilarious and the attitude to games isn't much better. Bizarley I think this situation would be helped if the US actually had legally enforcable ratings on games (there is nothing in law stopping an 8 year old buying a mature game) as this would imediatly address "won't someone please think of the children" argument.

    I'm pretty sure the BBFC stated that the hot coffee mod wouldn't affect the games rating in the UK (it was already an 18) and I swear there was one scene when a gang member was clearly getting a blowjob in the actual game anyway.

    What needs to be addressed though is homosexuality in games as it is still a little out of date. I can only think of two games which feature homesexual relationships on games consoles off the top of my head, Fable and Jade Empire, but I did notice when the characters kiss in the hetrosexual version they look at each other kiss and the camera then pans away in the classic style of old movies to imply they shag, in the homosexual version the camera pans pre-kiss. Surely if the player has played through the game as a homosexual they will either be one themselves or have no problem with two men/women snogging on screen?

    The simple fact that it is so hard to think of a game which includes mature relationships (the Darkness does it well), hetro or otherwise shows this is an area that games should address.

  • Lunaticorc #45 5 years ago

    "For good, or bad, games do not have the diversity because the market doesnt demand it as heavily."

    I'm hoping that will change when the current gaming generation grows older and starts looking for something different besides shooting an alien in the face.

    Also some people seem to think that if you allow too much mature content in games it'll simply open the floodgates to immature content and yeah that's what's probably gonna happen. Who cares though? If you can have dumb movies like American Pie and torture movies like Hostel then why not similar games? There'll always be the good and the bad. It wouldn't be any different from the current market where most games released suck, but it's all worth it when something really good is created for all us gamers to enjoy.

  • kangarootoo #46 5 years ago

    "Farhenheit could of been such a game, but they ruined it with the twitch-tastic cut scenes"

    And the increasingly childish plot, and the unimaginative characters, and the poor gameplay design...

  • Daymare #47 5 years ago

    "But show any kind of "sexy" content and we have cries for censorship. What are we protection ourselves from anyway? What does it say about our society?"

    "Make war not love" seems to be the hidden message:)

  • Les #48 5 years ago

    "For good, or bad, games do not have the diversity because the market doesnt demand it as heavily."

    That’s only because the current market is but a small subset of the public. I’d say games do have to have the diversity if they ever want to be as big as movies, music, books, etc. (as in being accepted by a broad demographic)

  • kangarootoo #49 5 years ago

    "because the market doesnt demand it as heavily"

    That is also a self perpetuating cycle. If games never do anything new, people who want new things aren't attracted to games, hence there is no demand because there are no customers.

  • G3org3 #50 5 years ago

    Sex in any form is gonna be late very late to enter the realm of video games

    first because there are people that struggled against them for their content since the age of sprites and pixels not to mention the closer we get to photorealism the worst that will get.
    Our little friend Thomson for example cried over kids shooting weapons in school because of GTA or DOOM and never the fuck cried over how the kid got a shotgun in the first place

    Ratings will change when people who know about games get to judge how are games are to be rated and are able to realise how the image that they see is perceived from a gamer.
    in short this generation of gamers could become a worthy next generation Raters. till then its all gonna be forum talk

    but to be honest there is no need for that much sexual content in games
    you are meant to play through a plot and finish it...keep a save point of two
    50000+polygon made figures having sex and bragging about it to your friends as a game of choice serves no purpose at all
    and if people want to make games a sort of artform the addition or inclusion of any romantic+pornografic element will stir negative pulse to everything that they have already succeded and games will have moved a step back i m afraid its too early for that.
    Edited by 1 at 20/08/07 @ 14:56

  • SEVQA #51 5 years ago

    When a scene is added to game for plot and atmosphere, for example a sex scene between a couple who’ve met and fall in love throughout the course of your adventure is and would be a breath of fresh air. As us as real human beings fall in love and have sex. Why this very human subject is not tolerated within games is a true nonsense.

    Japanese gamers have been able to play adult only games for a long time; I recall a friend showing a DS game where the user had to lift the skirt of girl whilst she was sleeping with the stylus and not wake her! Absolutely Inspired!

    On another note: I personally have a disliking to games that trivialise war showing the same dumb ass A-Team approach to grenades being thrown at people and sending them flying in all directions where limbs and guts should be seen and wounded soldiers crying out for their mums. THERE ARE TOO MANY WAR GAMES OUT THERE! The rating system is corrupt and hypocritical and obviously controlled by financial cronies. Sure enough they will die and things hopefully will take a turn for the better.

    PS ( I love the A-Team)
    Edited by 1 at 20/08/07 @ 16:54

  • Monkey_Puncher #52 5 years ago

    Gay dragons?

  • Irien #53 5 years ago

    Sometimes I want to bang authorities heads together about this kind of stuff. Here in the UK we have a relatively sensible film rating system, which can also be applied to games (I have Doom boxes on the shelves with 15 ratings, and God of War with an 18, for example). I'm not arguing if these ratings are "correct", but the system is in place - PG, 12, 15, 18 etc.

    The US also has a rating system - PG, PG13, R, NC-17 etc. (not as clear as UK system, but hey, that's the US).

    Retailers understand these ratings systems. Walmart understand them. You can go and buy a movie with blood and some sex from Walmart without a problem (eg. many Arnie movies).

    Is it really so complicated to apply the same rating system to games?

  • robg #54 5 years ago

    "But show any kind of "sexy" content and we have cries for censorship.

    Not at all. Sex often != sexy. It's almost the opposite.

    Can we get rid of the stupid straw man arguments from the permissive side of the discussion, where it's assumed that any sort of sexy/relationship-oriented stuff is not allowed? NO-one is saying that, so *don't* base an argument on it. The argument is (for better or worse) about games containing overtly sexual content. That's it. Don't try and pretend it's something obviously unreasonable - it isn't. It's something worth debating, and if you can't see the actual argument then please don't join in.

  • Les #55 5 years ago

    "The argument is (for better or worse) about games containing overtly sexual content. That's it. Don't try and pretend it's something obviously unreasonable - it isn't."

    It's been perceived as being unreasobale and I'd say that's enough.

  • SEVQA #56 5 years ago

    @ Robg

    I disagree with you! As Les pointed out “It's been perceived as being unreasonable”.

    My use of a relationship was an example that within the context of the game sexually explicit scenes would and should be deemed appropriate for arts sake irrelevant of what a board of censors think! Which I think the argument was about!
    Edited by 1 at 20/08/07 @ 17:53

  • YourMessageHere #57 5 years ago

    surely as a few people have pointed out this is a self perpetuating cycle. I personally would be all for more games based on human interaction (i.e. drama, including the vast majority of a sexual relationship that's not actually taken up with people having sex) rather than fighting, the likes of RPGs based on characters not fighting, but I don't really see them.

    From a developer's point of view, if they're faced with the choice of a game involving fighting or one involving human interaction, there are considerably greater impediments on what they can do with human interaction if they can't involve sex in the equation. It's also true to say that path is the much less travelled of the two and they may be reluctant or simply not good enough to blaze that trail, compared to something combat-based that they have thousands of examples of how to accomplish. But knowing that they have to tread this thin line where the script has to be good enough and they have to make their characters behave realistically, but they can't actually have sex, might be a major discouragement; not an impossible obstacle to circumnavigate, but very hard to do so and remain credible. Remove that and such games are maybe a step closer.

  • trooper6 #58 5 years ago

    @RexRunti

    "I've always thought their should be more sex in games. Though it doesn't have to be graphic (like when Films first realised the could two people shagging and every movie had at least one gratuitos shot in it). Also I think this is a problem caused by one country, the US as the attitude to sex is hilarious and the attitude to games isn't much better. Bizarley I think this situation would be helped if the US actually had legally enforcable ratings on games (there is nothing in law stopping an 8 year old buying a mature game) as this would imediatly address "won't someone please think of the children" argument. "

    Actually, I don't think enforcement would help...it might even hurt. At the moment, the only thing that is legallly restricted is hardcore pornography. 8 year olds can walk into a store and buy whatever R rated film they like, or the book the film was based on. If we Americans put 18+ legal age restriction on Mature games, then mature games become like cigarettes, alcohol and porn..it cements the idea that games (unlike films, books, TV) are vices and somehow fundamentally unhealthy/sinful. It would give a lot of really conservative reactionaries more proof that games are Bad.

    As for the sex content...(I'm American, and I'm going to have to use some American historical references...sorry! I wish I knew British film history better!). Like many others have said, this isn't about having hard core pornography in video games. It is about equality. I want games to be treated equally to films. That means, I want the equivalent handling of sex in my M rated games as I get in R rated films. Heck, right now some PG-13 films get more sexual content than some M games. For the most mainstream, young dude oriented demographic (which isn't actually video game demographics, even though everyone keeps thinking so)...we don't have the video game equivalent of There's Something About Mary, American Pie or whatever.

    Video Games are stuck in the Hayes Codes...which was abolished for film in the mid-1960s! The ESRB is treating video games like it's an imagined 1950s as far as sex, yet with violence you can get away with a LOT...and put it in a T for Teen game.

    James Bond is popular...and back in the day his films were PG...and had a LOT of sex...we don't even get generally get as much sex in our M games as the 1974 PG James Bond "Live and Let Die" -- that seems really strange. That dumb TV show "Three's Company" had more engagement with risqué sexual content than most video games. And the average age of the video game buying public is somewhere in the 30s.

    Why can't I get a video game like Casino Royale or Mr. and Mrs. Smith? (And not those films with all the sex, love and romance removed and all the violence turned up to 11--yet in a gratuitous and immature way). The sex scene in the orginal Terminator was an important part of the plot...if they did it in a video game, Reese and Sarah Connor would look at each other then we'd fade to black as if it were still 1943.

    I'm a grown up. I'd like for my video game sex, love and violence to be grown up too. I love TV shows like Battlestar Galactica, Damages, The Wire, Rome...why can't I have video game like that?

  • Scimarad #59 5 years ago

    "When a scene is added to game for plot and atmosphere, for example a sex scene between a couple who’ve met and fall in love throughout the course of your adventure is and would be a breath of fresh air."

    That did kind of happen in Xenogears, though you didn't actually see them 'in the act' , so to speak;-)

  • smelly #60 5 years ago


    @SniperWolf: Sorry but you're a tard who didn't even read what he said.

    "MS and Sony are not going to allow hardcore porn on their consoles"

    He didnt say that did he? He said that games should be allowed to have sex scenes in them, in the same way that films are. "Eyes wide shut" is hardly hard core porn.

    (and if you think the "hot coffee" was hard core too.. then i suggest you get out more)


  • smelly #61 5 years ago

    >You can go and buy a movie with blood and some sex from Walmart

    ah, but there-in lies a problem.. Walmart have no problems with you buying "unrated" dvd's in the states. but an 18 rated game? Not a hope in hell.

  • NegativeZero #62 5 years ago

    I wonder if the push towards digital distribution might be the way around the Wal-mart issue.

  • Kill_Crazy #63 5 years ago

    Monkey_Puncher said: Gay dragons?

    Damn, wanted to get the gay dragon gag in first, nevermind.

  • convercide #64 5 years ago

    I agree with the above poster (funnily enough of post 69...). The best games out there don't need adult content. Katamari Damacy - no adult content but a lot of fun. The Mario Series - Outstanding etc.

    I think Eggface (I can't be bothered to go back and spell it) is trying to argue against certain aspects of censorship. I agree, some censors go a bit askew, for example, violence in games in wrong in Germany, but Hardcore porn is readily available. Over here (the UK), it's the other way around. Japan censors genitalia but will quite happily show tentacle rape etc. You can't go putting anything in a form of media because it's 'art' for the sake of the 'art'. Besides, the most art doesn't require adult content to be classified as art.

  • robg #65 5 years ago

    "It's been perceived as being unreasobale and I'd say that's enough."

    Enough for what? Yes I know this issue is perceived as being unreasonable, but that doesn't (and has *nothing* to do with being able to) give anyone licence to claim that it also contains overt, ridiculously unreasonable elements.

  • kangarootoo #66 5 years ago

    @convercide

    "The best games out there don't need adult content."

    Its not really a matter of "needing" sexual content, its about having the freedom to include such things if they are relevant to the story being told.

    Also, the best games out there have been made under current rules, where sexual content is prohibited to some degree. You can hardly say "we clearly don't need to loosen the rules, because great games have been made under the current ruleset". Would games be EVEN BETTER if the rules were loosened? We don't really know, so we can't make that call.

    Anyway, KD is a certain kind of game. Its very good, but its not the type of game that would actually benefit from greater freedom regarding storytelling. To say KD has no sex AND is great THEREFORE great games don't need sex, is not a safe assumption to make. A duck is a bird, but not all birds are ducks (to use one of my favourite analogies, favourite in part I'm sure because I invented it ;) )

    The fact Shrek has no sex in it doesn't make it a better film than Magnolia, they are just simply not the same kind of film and when people say "that is a good film" about either of those titles, they aren't really comparing like with like. Games can be viewed in the same way I think.

  • kangarootoo #67 5 years ago

    @robg

    I think you are splitting hairs somewhat. Whether something is unreasonable or not is subjective, so perception is really all there is.

    The perception that something is unreasonable or the claim that something is unreasonable.... I'm not sure I see the difference.

  • RexRunti #68 5 years ago

    Whilst I agree that we shouldn't just add sex in games for no reason. There are games which would benefit from a little sexual content, and some games which seem bizarre for not including more. The game that springs to mind is Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. This a violent game, with plenty of swearing and loose morals. In fact some of the game actually takes place in a strip club and those dodgy boothes, but are the characters naked? are they even topless? No (though they are about as naked as you can get with out showing anything). In other scene you can actually sleep with an NPC, but does this game which is happy to show people being torn apart and cold blooded murder show anything? No, the screen goes black and you here some vaguely sexual sounds and that's it.

    The point I'm making is that all these issues, whilst thoroughly gratuitous, in a movie wouldn't be looked at twice. It's strange that a game goes so far to add gratutious sexual content then flinches before it gets its hands dirty. What is the point of crow-barring in a strip club if you're not going to have naked women?

    Modern games are littered with these examples. In one of the Hitman games you sneak past someone having a shower... in their Mary Whitehouse-approved-underwear.

    Games should brave enough to be aware of their target audiances, (the "sex" scene in Overlord is pitch perfect for the style of game, the aformentioned Hitman and VTM:B are not). And if the ESRB/and other ratings boards kick up a fuss be prepared to defend their games to the hilt.

    Also MS and Sony (though I can understand if Nintendo don't) should be prepared to allow AO games on their machines and be prepared to bully companies like WallMart if they impose restrictions.

  • convercide #69 5 years ago

    @kangarootoo

    I see your point but I fail to see how games would be 'even better' if they had adult content. I can see that maybe it would enhance a romantic scene with two characters, however I'm sure you understand that videogames are in censorship infancy. With the Wii with have the moral dilemma of Manhunt 2. Sure you can kill people in games but never before have you been able to instigate it yourself. I know a WiiMote is a far cry from an axe etc. but there's a big difference between watching film with a tasteful sex scene and acting it out with a peripheral, even if (like Farenheit/Indigo Prophecy) you're pushing an analogue stick. Even in a CG movie, it would seem a tad odd.

    What you're suggesting is pushing back moral boundaries, rather than art boundaries. Videogames are much more readily available to children at the moment, thanks to lack of knowledge and information. I think we will see something in the future but at the moment most parents wouldn't buy their child an 18 rated film for Christmas, but they'd get them Gears Of War as it's 'just a game'. It's this behaviour which means the censorship has to be very strict. As more of our generation mature and later ones, who have an understanding of this type of media, then we may see a loosening of the rules.