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Ratings board doesn't take games seriously - Eggebrecht News

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News by Tom Bramwell

20 August, 2007

Factor 5 president Julian Eggebrecht has said that games' inability to include sexual content, satirical jokes and fantasy violence without degrees of censure are symptoms of a wider problem with ratings - and said that he didn't feel the US Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB) took the medium seriously as an artform.

"I would be happy if in games we could talk about homosexuality, but we're not even at the point where we can admit that humans have heterosexual relationships, and that is a real problem - and it tends to show that games are not being seen, even by our own ratings boards, as an artform," he told attendees at the Games Convention Developer's Conference in Germany.

Eggebrecht devoted much of his keynote address on the first morning of GCDC to attacking the US Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB) over ratings problems encountered developing PS3 title Lair, and drew attention to various examples.

One of these was a satirical video of a real-life coffee maker hidden behind a cheat code in Lair - a reference to the presence of unfinished sexual content in the original release of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas. "Everyone thought it was hilarious...but we couldn't call the cheat 'Hot Coffee', because that would imply we were mocking the authorities investigating Hot Coffee."

"If you cannot have satire about these things, that is approaching the realm of McCarthyism," he said.

In a speech that regularly drew comparisons between the use of violence and sex in film and videogames, Eggebrecht called on his fellow developers to include more sexual content in games. "I want to see a game with real sexual content in a store here in Germany - I don't think it will happen unless we really recognise games as an artform," he told the audience. He pointed to Stanley Kubrick film Eyes Wide Shut, which "discusses relationship issues that you have in a marriage". "You don't have that in games - it is time to wake up and make it happen."

It was during this phase of his speech that Eggebrecht referred to Hot Coffee, defending embattled publisher Rockstar. "How a game can be drawn off the shelves based on a cheat in which you can barely see something that might be interpreted as a sexual act - as an Easter Egg no less - is absolutely beyond me, when at the same time movies have been pushing the envelope for a long time," he said.

Eggebrecht also called on the ESRB to introduce a new American rating between the Teen and Mature badges, arguing that neither was suitable for games like Lair whose innate appeal is to teenage gamers, but whose content is fantasy violence that can be viewed from custom angles - something of a sticking point for censors.

Factor 5 had been forced to excise various elements of Lair's violence because, while publisher Sony sought a Teen rating, the ESRB repeatedly objected to spurts of blood and organic aircraft being blown into visible "chunks", forcing the developer into a time consuming and "hugely problematic" cycle of submissions, Eggebrecht said.

"On the one hand they objected to this, but they let us through with a Teen even though you can use fire - you can set up to five, six thousand people on fire. They burn, they run around and they scream, but of course that wasn't a problem [due to the absence of blood]."

He called the submissions process "a charade". "It's a flat out bizarre system...It makes it even harder for games than movies because we don't have the intermediate ratings." Although there were obvious parallels between the way game content could be tweaked to fit ratings guidelines, and the way that film directors were able to remove frames or frame violence artistically so that disgusting or shocking acts were alluded to rather than literally seen, the gap between Teen and Mature ratings and the ESRB's awkwardness were a source of agitation, he explained.

"They don't really tell you what they will object to - they just say 'well, follow the standards that have been set before', which is a problem if you want to push the envelope," he added.

Despite this, Eggebrecht encouraged his fellow developers to continue pushing against the boundaries of what was acceptable in order to establish games as an artform. He concluded: "I hope that we actually can prove that this is an artform. Show me something that proves on all levels that games are indeed an artform - push the violence, but also push the sex, and push it in an artistic way where it's not really gratuitous, but where it gets my thinking brain going."

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Comments: 1-50 of 70 in total | next 50 »

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SniperWolf
20/08/07 @ 09:45
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Yawn not this again, Nintendo, MS and Sony are not going to allow hardcore porn on their consoles, don't cry about it Mr Eggbelly or whatever your name is.
jack_klugman
20/08/07 @ 09:46
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Wasn't the sexual content removed from the US version of Fahrenheit because of aggressive content rating?
aldo_14
20/08/07 @ 09:47
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Methinks in a world where you can have stuff like 9 Songs (admittedly at the extreme end) released rated 18 in movies, the treatment of adult-rated games is more than a bit prudish and immature.

Granted, there's a danger that the nature games would inherently restrict sex to be something rather pointless or cheesy, but someone should be able to try.
SniperWolf
20/08/07 @ 09:47
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And he wants homosexuality in games, well it's been done. Gears of war, FFXII, MGS4

three of the gayest games ever made.
Edited 1 times, most recently on 20/08/07 @ 10:48
afghan_jones
20/08/07 @ 09:47
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Not going to happen.

Games cost too much to make for developers to take risks on overly controversial subjects.

Also, while film has audiences whose tastes vary wildly, the people who enjoyed films tackling difficult subject matter like Brokeback Mountain, Boys dont Cry etc are not the sort of people who purchase games and games consoles
brainbird
20/08/07 @ 09:49
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I don't know what it says about you, SniperWolf, when sex is always hardcore porn to you.
Machiavel
20/08/07 @ 09:50
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Hmm, "also push the sex... in an artistic way... where it gets my thinking brain going."

going, "Hmm, time for a wank..."
afghan_jones
20/08/07 @ 09:52
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although i do agree with him that ratings can be kinda balls with games. The whole Hot coffee thing was ludicrous that acts of random violence against the elderly, the police, etc, plus myriad lesser crimes are ok content, but some laughably unsexy sex featuring clothed character models is unacceptable is just weird.
Pac
20/08/07 @ 10:02
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Perhaps they could introduce some better parental controls so it would allow more freedom for content providers to include more adult themed material.

On second thoughts they have done this on Sky movies and it is a right pain. Means you have got to put in a four digit code whenever you watch a movie rated 12+ before 9pm (every time you stop or start it!!).
Moz
20/08/07 @ 10:07
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Has this guy not played the Sims 2 or Fable.

Yes I know neither game is graphic but they do both have a lot of sexual relationships in them both stright and gay.
dominalien
20/08/07 @ 10:08
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Sexual content in Fahrenheit was so lame (not form, but context), that it makes me think the game would have been better without it.
jack_klugman
20/08/07 @ 10:16
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dominalien - I agree largely. It did feel a little unnecessary. That said it is a concern when content has to be removed for a specific region because it won't make it past the censor (violent content in Germany, sexual content in the US, etc).
jack_klugman
20/08/07 @ 10:17
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Plus its a fundemental hypocricy when you allow horrifically violent games, but aggressively censor sexual content.
Krun
20/08/07 @ 10:19
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@
"And he wants homosexuality in games, well it's been done. Gears of war, FFXII, MGS4

three of the gayest games ever made."

true all those games are fairly gay, although I think the censor board would have a fit if the lead characters in GOW Kiss at the end of the game.

I seem to remember when i was a kid lots of games and game magazine used to have scantily clad women on the covers. obviously 8-bit nudity wasn't actually in most of those games, but sex was used to sell them.

It is an odd world we live in where it is acceptable to depict realist War and blood soaked walls. But show any kind of "sexy" content and we have cries for censorship. What are we protection ourselves from anyway? What does it say about our society?

Edited 1 times, most recently on 20/08/07 @ 11:19
Freek
20/08/07 @ 10:22
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It's not hardcore porn he's on about, it's sexuality handled in a mature way.
But movies in America suffer the same fate. As soon as you try to include more complicated subjects like that you get an NC 17 rating which is the mark of death since many cinemas won't show it and Wall Mart won't stock the DVDs.

It's censorship through a different means, which ironically is what the ratings were supposed to prevent from happening.
Orange
20/08/07 @ 10:23
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He makes a good point about the general conservatism of the ratings, I like to see games push the envelope even if it's not always content I would want to play. It's good to have the choice and occasionally a classic will turn up.
Steroyd
20/08/07 @ 10:26
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Oh yeah I remember Duke Nukem 3D or 64 why was that rated 18 I was too young to understand how to play that game without cheating to the last level and the most 18 rated thing I saw was a pixelated lady dancing.
Schiraman
20/08/07 @ 10:28
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I think he makes some very good points there.

And sure, sex in games is likely to be mostly lame - at least to begin with - but is that a good reason to censor it? As adults, surely there should be no reason we can't have mature themes of all kinds in our games.

Also, just as a society in general, isn't it about time we stopped being so shocked and scared by sex all the time?
robg
20/08/07 @ 10:40
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"we're not even at the point where we can admit that humans have heterosexual relationships"

Rubbish. Admitting a relationship and displaying sex are obviously different things. If he has to use nonsense like this to push his argument then he's not worth listening to. You don't need to add porn into your medium to have it respected as an art form.
woodnotes
20/08/07 @ 10:59
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Lair sucks Julian, get the hell over it.

Oh wait, this is something different...
Edited 1 times, most recently on 20/08/07 @ 11:59
NewYork
20/08/07 @ 11:21
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I still won't buy GoW because of that booby minigame.
aldo_14
20/08/07 @ 11:26
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Rubbish. Admitting a relationship and displaying sex are obviously different things. If he has to use nonsense like this to push his argument then he's not worth listening to. You don't need to add porn into your medium to have it respected as an art form.


Albeit how many games have an actual adult (in tone, not shagging on screen) relationship between a man and woman in it? I can't really think of anything beyond a brief section of Strike Commander (offhand) in the early-mid 90s.
Daryoon
20/08/07 @ 11:31
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I've seen plenty of hetrosexual relationships in games...
Les
20/08/07 @ 11:32
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"Games cost too much to make for developers to take risks on overly controversial subjects.

Also, while film has audiences whose tastes vary wildly, the people who enjoyed films tackling difficult subject matter like Brokeback Mountain, Boys dont Cry etc are not the sort of people who purchase games and games consoles"

Continuing with this stupid censorship will make sure games never reach general acceptance.
Lunaticorc
20/08/07 @ 11:36
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"Also, while film has audiences whose tastes vary wildly, the people who enjoyed films tackling difficult subject matter like Brokeback Mountain, Boys dont Cry etc are not the sort of people who purchase games and games consoles"

Perhaps they don't buy games due to lack of choice. Most games have pretty crappy stories and writing. If there were more games like Planescape: Torment and Fahrenheit then perhaps people who currently find games childish would buy more games? And that's what Eggebrecht is tyring to aim for. Get some serious story content into games so that people who enjoy more intelligent things don't feel like games are a complete waste of time.

Lucky for me i can enjoy both cheesy and not so cheesy things. Unfortunantely as i grow older i find myself craving more for games with substance but the current gaming market is heavily tilted towards cheesy.
Edited 1 times, most recently on 20/08/07 @ 12:37
aine
20/08/07 @ 11:39
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Also, while film has audiences whose tastes vary wildly, the people who enjoyed films tackling difficult subject matter like Brokeback Mountain, Boys dont Cry etc are not the sort of people who purchase games and games consoles

Bollocks.

that's an incredibly sweeping and inaccurate generalisation to make. of course people who enjoy those sorts of films buy video games. me, for example. a majority of gamers may always be the sorts of people who only buy the latest FIFA and movie licenses, but the same goes for films as well - i'm willing to bet more people went to see brainless shite like Rush Hour 3 than Brokeback Mountain. very few games actually cater to that audience, but that's not because the audience doesn't exist - it's generally because publishers and ratings boards (and, to some extent, the media) aren't willing to let developers take risks with more mature subject matter.
Edited 1 times, most recently on 20/08/07 @ 12:49
smoison
20/08/07 @ 11:44
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But neither SOny, Nintendo or Microsoft allow AO (Adult) games on thier consols.

That should give you a clue of why games are aimed at children more then anyone else
robg
20/08/07 @ 11:49
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@aldo_14

Ok I'm sure that's true, but that doesn't really have anything to do with anything I was saying :)
jack_klugman
20/08/07 @ 12:09
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Also, while film has audiences whose tastes vary wildly, the people who enjoyed films tackling difficult subject matter like Brokeback Mountain, Boys dont Cry etc are not the sort of people who purchase games and games consoles

Bollocks.

that's an incredibly sweeping and inaccurate generalisation to make.


Nah, on the whole video games players are morons.
kangarootoo
20/08/07 @ 12:11
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@Sniperwolf

"Nintendo, MS and Sony are not going to allow hardcore porn on their consoles"

In what way did he actually suggest that should be the case? Can you really only define sex in two ways, either complete absence, or porn? What a varied life you must have lived.


@afghan_jones

"Also, while film has audiences whose tastes vary wildly, the people who enjoyed films tackling difficult subject matter like Brokeback Mountain, Boys dont Cry etc are not the sort of people who purchase games and games consoles"

What?! What kind of statement to make is that. One of the largest selling games of all time was the Sims. Does that really suggest to you that the majority of gamers can't watch anything by Steve Seagal films? You seem to confusing a vocal minority of insecure adolescent internet gamers with the entire planet.
kangarootoo
20/08/07 @ 12:14
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@jack_klugman

As I said in my previous post. Morons shout loudest, hence the clieched term "vocal minority".

The majority of gamers are normal people, they don't flip out every time Raiden from MGS gets mentioned, they don't think Gears of War characters are aspirational, they have girlfriends that they respect, they have no particularly strong feelings about whether Nintendo "make games for kids", and most importantly they don't write on internet forums like this one.

I fit most of the above, but for some reason, here I am none the less :)
kangarootoo
20/08/07 @ 12:21
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@Wonga

"which effectively a ban, for the mildest sexual content you could imagine"

Lets not be sensationalist about it now. The content in question was a lengthy animated cutscene of two people clearly shagging. Pretty mild stuff if it turned up in a 15 film I agree (which is where the hypocrisy lies), but I could probably imagine milder sexual content and as far as games go it stood out like a sore thumb.

Now I'm not saying I object to the content or agree with the ruling (I actually think the content was as approrpriate to the situation as in any film), but it wasn't exactly as mild as you describe.

Max Payne is a good example of a mature script in a game that didn't really put any sex on the screen. Sex and death all get their coverage, but it is never done in a style of tittering teenage titiliation (the "will you watch my back" line in MP2 was a clever a piece of noir styled screenplay as I think I've ever heard in a game).

I think we need to be clear about what it is we are objecting to, and that a mature objection is more likely to garner a mature response. Are we peeved because we are told a game cannot contain adult themes (as MP clearly did without any cuts), or are we simply annoyed that someone decided we can't see electronic boobs on our TVs (as in the case of Fahrenheit, which could have easily changed the cutscene and lost none fo the plot device)?
Arwin
20/08/07 @ 12:27
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I agree 250% with Eggebrecht. The whole thing is ridiculous.

That said, perhaps it is possible to in some way set a few flags in the game around certain effects that can be turned on and off, so you can have things according to your preference.
Mentalist(air)
20/08/07 @ 12:29
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I've seen plenty of hetrosexual relationships in games...

I think he means heterosexual sexual relationships. Mario and peach may have a 'heterosexual releationship', but you don't know whether or not they're actually fucking.
kangarootoo
20/08/07 @ 12:31
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@Wonga

I'm referring specifically to you suggestion that it got banned "for the mildest sexual content you could imagine". I suggest it was not actually as mild as you suggest. In the context of what is normally present in games, it was pretty graphic. It was essentially softcore porn. I consider "the mildest I can imagine" to be more like someone snogging someone else on a TV soap.
Les
20/08/07 @ 12:32
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"but I could probably imagine milder sexual content and as far as games go it stood out like a sore thumb."

That's just the problem: It's not normal that there's so little sex in games compared to other, mature, types of media.
SniperWolf
20/08/07 @ 12:38
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If you want to play games with sex in them then PC is the platform, you can get loli rape sims ect.

I don't see why anyone would want to play games like that, and I'm kinda glad that that consoles have kept strict rules on sex in games. Why must every form of entertainment be home to smut. Not all of society is sex crazed animals that need porn on every gadget in their house.

If you want cheap thrills go hire a hooker or use your PC for fapping.
Les
20/08/07 @ 12:43
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"Not all of society is sex crazed animals that need porn on every gadget in their house."

Have you been outside recently?! ;)
kangarootoo
20/08/07 @ 12:44
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@Sniperwolf

"If you want to play games with sex in them then PC is the platform, you can get loli rape sims ect. "

Jesus christ, there you go again, declaring some apparently cast iron causal path between sex and rape! I'm starting to worry about you.


"Why must every form of entertainment be home to smut."

Do you consider every reference to the existance of sexuality to be smut? Can sex seriously not be included in media as part of an accurate representation of life? Sex does exist in real life you know, like the 'good type' of sex that doesn't include rape.
kangarootoo
20/08/07 @ 12:48
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@Wonga

"Contrast this sex scene to the violence that is allowed in games like Manhunt 1 for instance, and there is no way to rationalise it."

I wholly agree there (not that a disgreed with your view of the way Fahrenheit was trested though). We seem to live in this bizarre world where a subjectively diverse sense of morality is viewed with much greater disdane than very objectively and actually harmful murder. Maybe its because plenty of otherwise seemingly moralistic people profit from murder every day

There is a very good South Park episode covering that subject, its the one for download on XBLive as it happens :)
afghan_jones
20/08/07 @ 12:49
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Ok, when I said that the market for more arthouse movies wasnt the same as the games industry I guess I needed to give more detail.

Obviously there are people who will watch arthouse cinema, covering a wide variety of subjects who will also play videogames. (I include myself in this bracket.)

What I meant was more that while the audiences for these two types of media may overlap at times, in general they are two very different groups.

For good, or bad, games do not have the diversity because the market doesnt demand it as heavily.

No, im not saying everything has to be like a Segal movie to sell on a console, obviously it doesnt but that doesnt change the fact that if EA released 'Eyes Wide Shut: The Game' it wouldnt shift a great deal of units.

Actually it probably would but for the wrong reasons. Lets say 'Hard Candy:The Game' or 'Brokeback Mountain: The Game'
Nesty
20/08/07 @ 12:50
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he's dead on.
kangarootoo
20/08/07 @ 13:04
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@afghan_jones

The games market is smaller, and gaming requires a bit more buy in than film watching (a games system of some sort, whereas everyone already has a TV or lesg the walk to cinema).

Actually though (with my pedant hat on), what you are now describing is something else.

What you previously said was that people who are into varying types of film content aren't the sorts of people that buy games and games consoles.

You are now saying that the majority of games players have limited taste in games, and that they wouldn't be into games that contain certain types of content.

I'm sure you can see that those two descriptions are not of the same thing. It is perfectly possible that someone who has very varied tastes in films does not find that variety reflected in their choice of games. That is a far cry from deciding whether someone is likely to be a gamer by referring to their film watching habits. Whether a certain type of film would translate into game form effectively was not part of your original point.
RexRunti
20/08/07 @ 13:05
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I've always thought their should be more sex in games. Though it doesn't have to be graphic (like when Films first realised the could two people shagging and every movie had at least one gratuitos shot in it). Also I think this is a problem caused by one country, the US as the attitude to sex is hilarious and the attitude to games isn't much better. Bizarley I think this situation would be helped if the US actually had legally enforcable ratings on games (there is nothing in law stopping an 8 year old buying a mature game) as this would imediatly address "won't someone please think of the children" argument.

I'm pretty sure the BBFC stated that the hot coffee mod wouldn't affect the games rating in the UK (it was already an 18) and I swear there was one scene when a gang member was clearly getting a blowjob in the actual game anyway.

What needs to be addressed though is homosexuality in games as it is still a little out of date. I can only think of two games which feature homesexual relationships on games consoles off the top of my head, Fable and Jade Empire, but I did notice when the characters kiss in the hetrosexual version they look at each other kiss and the camera then pans away in the classic style of old movies to imply they shag, in the homosexual version the camera pans pre-kiss. Surely if the player has played through the game as a homosexual they will either be one themselves or have no problem with two men/women snogging on screen?

The simple fact that it is so hard to think of a game which includes mature relationships (the Darkness does it well), hetro or otherwise shows this is an area that games should address.
Lunaticorc
20/08/07 @ 13:09
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"For good, or bad, games do not have the diversity because the market doesnt demand it as heavily."

I'm hoping that will change when the current gaming generation grows older and starts looking for something different besides shooting an alien in the face.

Also some people seem to think that if you allow too much mature content in games it'll simply open the floodgates to immature content and yeah that's what's probably gonna happen. Who cares though? If you can have dumb movies like American Pie and torture movies like Hostel then why not similar games? There'll always be the good and the bad. It wouldn't be any different from the current market where most games released suck, but it's all worth it when something really good is created for all us gamers to enjoy.
kangarootoo
20/08/07 @ 13:12
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"Farhenheit could of been such a game, but they ruined it with the twitch-tastic cut scenes"

And the increasingly childish plot, and the unimaginative characters, and the poor gameplay design...
Daymare
20/08/07 @ 13:16
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"But show any kind of "sexy" content and we have cries for censorship. What are we protection ourselves from anyway? What does it say about our society?"

"Make war not love" seems to be the hidden message:)
Les
20/08/07 @ 13:25
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"For good, or bad, games do not have the diversity because the market doesnt demand it as heavily."

That’s only because the current market is but a small subset of the public. I’d say games do have to have the diversity if they ever want to be as big as movies, music, books, etc. (as in being accepted by a broad demographic)
kangarootoo
20/08/07 @ 13:44
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"because the market doesnt demand it as heavily"

That is also a self perpetuating cycle. If games never do anything new, people who want new things aren't attracted to games, hence there is no demand because there are no customers.
G3org3
20/08/07 @ 13:50
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Sex in any form is gonna be late very late to enter the realm of video games

first because there are people that struggled against them for their content since the age of sprites and pixels not to mention the closer we get to photorealism the worst that will get.
Our little friend Thomson for example cried over kids shooting weapons in school because of GTA or DOOM and never the fuck cried over how the kid got a shotgun in the first place

Ratings will change when people who know about games get to judge how are games are to be rated and are able to realise how the image that they see is perceived from a gamer.
in short this generation of gamers could become a worthy next generation Raters. till then its all gonna be forum talk

but to be honest there is no need for that much sexual content in games
you are meant to play through a plot and finish it...keep a save point of two
50000+polygon made figures having sex and bragging about it to your friends as a game of choice serves no purpose at all
and if people want to make games a sort of artform the addition or inclusion of any romantic+pornografic element will stir negative pulse to everything that they have already succeded and games will have moved a step back i m afraid its too early for that.
Edited 1 times, most recently on 20/08/07 @ 14:56

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