Rare was working on Avatars "before Miis were part of gaming scene"

By Johnny Minkley Published 11 September, 2008

Studio dismisses copycat claims.

Rare has vigorously denied suggestions that its Avatars for Xbox 360 are a deliberate attempt to copy Nintendo's popular Mii template, claiming that it began work on the project before Wii had launched.

Speaking to Eurogamer TV for today's show, head of art Lee Musgrave revealed that it was only after Microsoft had seen the original concepts for customisable in-game characters that it decided to put Avatars at the centre of the New Xbox Experience, the forthcoming dashboard overhaul due to launch this autumn.

Musgrave said: "It was an idea we had, even before Miis were part of the gaming scene, of putting these characters that you have an affinity with, not necessarily as part of the Xbox dash, but somewhere in the Xbox that you would play multiple games with, that you would have multiple experiences with that same character."

Seeking to hammer home the point that any similarity between Avatars and Miis was purely coincidental, producer Chris Sutherland added: "We had a project up and running that had Avatars in them and the aim was always to have this component where you were able to customise your character and apply clothing to them."

And just in case there was any remaining confusion, Musgrave assured us that "Microsoft did not turn up one day in a speeding car and say, 'They've got Miis - do something!' It wasn't like that at all; it was something that fell into place over a period of time." More likely a private jet anyway.

The lovely chaps at Rare also told us there was some confusion early on as to what form the Avatars should take. "Should these things be little animals, should they be quirky characters, should they be Spore-like creatures, should they be ultra-real humans? We landed in the place that we have from the overriding theme that is approachability," said Musgrave.

You can see the full interview with Team Avatar in the latest episode of The Eurogamer TV Show.

Picture of Johnny.

About Johnny Minkley

Eurogamer TV's Johnny Minkley is a veteran journalist with a lifelong passion for games and the games industry. He uses Twitter more than most people use air.

Read more articles from Johnny by visiting the Johnny Minkley archive page.

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Comments (75) Latest comment 3 years ago

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  • tomdominer #1 3 years ago

    Don't talk shit Rare.

  • aldo_14 #2 3 years ago

    They probably first ripped off the avatar idea from MMOs and only nicked the idea of ui integration when they saw Nintendos implementation.....

  • jonsaan #3 3 years ago

    Avatars were around long before the Wii.

  • ZeroAX #4 3 years ago

    yeah right rare we believe you.

  • mcmonkeyplc #5 3 years ago

    Duh

  • schnide #6 3 years ago

    "Should these things be little animals, should they be quirky characters, should they be Spore-like creatures, should they be ultra-real humans?

    ..then we decided, fuck it, we'll just make them almost exactly like the Wii avatars and then throw our hands up in the air when people accuse us of copying them, even though ours came out after and we could have changed them."

  • davc4 #7 3 years ago

    Ahhh but your not doing it first are you, although i do believe that they have been working on it before the Mii's it is certainly influenced by it. nvm as long as they work well who cares all the best ideas are stolen from something else.

  • JohnnyWashnGo #8 3 years ago

    Complete tosh... And frankly if it is true, they should have changed them significantly when Nintendos Miis hit the scene.

  • HEAVYface #9 3 years ago

    Rare has never copied Nintendo, and will continue to make original software. surely anyone can see that any similarities between Rare and Nintendo output down the years are purely co-incidental.....

  • Fur_Cough #10 3 years ago

    It could be true. "In development for years, utterly derivative and over-hyped" describes everything they've done since joining MS.

  • Hamflank #11 3 years ago

    Al Gore invented avatars.

  • windflaw #12 3 years ago

    @Northy: I bet you just use yours as a Scalextric track...

  • menage #13 3 years ago

    Pinata's would have been awesome though.

  • ademkermad #14 3 years ago

    As much as i love Rare, they're talking so much bull

  • Golgo #15 3 years ago

    OK, so why do they look like uncannily like Miis? Coincidence?

  • menage #16 3 years ago

    Hate on the Mii-wannabe's all you like, but anyone who doesn't like VP has no soul.

    @evil

    So, Banjo, Conker, Vp all crap hey. Whatever.
    Edited by 2 at 11/09/08 @ 16:32

  • Triggerhappytel #17 3 years ago

    "Instead of crap that nobody wants, how about making good games instead."

    +1000

    I couldn't give a shit about these stupid Avatars; would much rather Rare made some more games instead.

  • Negotiator #18 3 years ago

    The fact is Wii's are shit, so Mii's are shit. Rare are back to their best, and I'm loving it.

  • Beano #19 3 years ago

    LOL... and Lips, SceneIt and Live Vision were in development since 1994 then?

  • sickpuppysoftware #20 3 years ago

    I invented swearing squirrels in 1975. Bastards.

  • Colin8703 #21 3 years ago

    Haven't Rare been copying Nintendo for years anyway?

  • brokenkey #22 3 years ago

    Rare must be the slowest developer in the world then. Well, apart from the Duke nukem team.

  • peteb #23 3 years ago

    Rare are one of the slowest developers in the world. :)

  • Emth #24 3 years ago

    So they expect us to believe they've been virtually sitting on these for over 2 years... Last time I checked, Microsoft aren't exactly patient.

  • DFawkes #25 3 years ago

    I acknowledge Avatars aren't Nintendos invention, but this is a fairly blatant lie.

  • Johnson #26 3 years ago

    >> The lovely chaps at Rare also told us there was some confusion early on as to what form the Avatars should take. "Should these things be little animals, should they be quirky characters, should they be Spore-like creatures, should they be ultra-real humans? We landed in the place that we have from the overriding theme that is approachability,"

    So not only did they think of Miis in advance, they also thought up and coined the name for Spore creatures in 2005 too. And yet they didn't use their powers to win the EuroMillions jackpot. Fools.

  • Cider86 #27 3 years ago

    Who cares if they thought of it before Nintendo or whoever or not. As long as it works and looks good then that's what matters. Its not like when asked the question they're gonna say, "yeah we sat on our collective arses for a few years then plagiarised the market leader coz we couldn't be arsed"

  • berelain #28 3 years ago

    Dont know why everyone is rubbishing the idea, its been around long enough before the Wii. Avatars have been a way of life in online communities for many years- look at light RPG sites such as Gaia Online which lets you create a cutesy themed avatar and buy clothing to dress them in. Nintendo hardly did it first, peeps.

  • redneon Verified Programmer, SUMO Digital #29 3 years ago

    @northy:

    Don't you mean CERN?

  • Baz_the_great #30 3 years ago

    Bull muck

  • Triggerhappytel #31 3 years ago

    Berelain - "Nintendo hardly did it first, peeps."

    No, but they did make it mass-market for the casual cretins. And very obviously anything similar which launches two years later is going to be accused as being blatantly influenced by this success. For Rare to deny this is just complete bullshit.
    Edited by 1 at 11/09/08 @ 17:23

  • Les #32 3 years ago

    The great thing of human psychology is that you can't look more suspicious in the eye of the public when you deny that you're guilty of the crime... ;)

    But given that it's Rare that we are talking about, I can't believe in a million years that they made this up themselves. ;)
    Edited by 1 at 11/09/08 @ 17:25

  • IronCladChicken #33 3 years ago

    I think when the guys who setup Ultimate/Rare left the comany it was a sign that things really wern't going well

  • onyxbox #34 3 years ago

    they're nothing like Mii's they are indeed slighly taller... what's the fuss about?

    ... only joking...

    to be honest I don't know how anyone could keep a straight face during that interview

  • sneetch #35 3 years ago

    @Most people here
    Yes, your scepticism makes them liars.

    @Colin8703
    "Haven't Rare been copying Nintendo for years anyway? "

    Yep, a likely reason why they look similar. I mean, they're both cartoonish avatars, some similarity is inevitable, how different do people think they could really look?
    Edited by 1 at 11/09/08 @ 17:39

  • ducksmuggler #36 3 years ago

    right not to burst the rare slagging of bubble but j allard had talked about custom avtars that you make your own ( went on about people designing clothes for them and selling them on the market place ) in a key note speach when the 360 was just about to launch .. so they are probably telling the truth ...

    if you dont belive it youtube it baby micrsoft e3 2005 j allard .

    now all you little wii girls can stop bitchin

  • dirtysteve #37 3 years ago

    Rare may well have been working on avatars before Miis. 2 Problems, 1: Nintendo were working on the Mii long before it appeared. 2:Rare might be seen as an innovator again if they actually released the innovations before other people.(2nd is right after first!)

  • Les #38 3 years ago

    "When Sony have their own avatars @ home - nobody criticised them -
    Sony ripped off motion control - Nobody criticised them -
    And just a week before the Xbox avatar announcement, Sony ripped off the achievements - Nobody criticises them."

    You're not a regular around here I take? ;)

    "But MS are not allowed to compete"

    Oh, the irony...

  • Feanor #39 3 years ago

    Miis are cute, and these things are fucking ugly.

  • Triggerhappytel #40 3 years ago

    "Sony ripped off motion control - Nobody criticised them -
    And just a week before the Xbox avatar announcement, Sony ripped off the achievements - Nobody criticises them."

    Heh heh, I take it you are being incredibly ironic?!!

  • bad09 #41 3 years ago

    Bloody avatars, bloody primetime, this is the first 360 update I'm actually dreading.

    I'm thankful less time is spent on the dash now as most of my media has moved to PS3!

  • CreepinJesus #42 3 years ago

    @northy

    CERN is under Geneva, you tit. And neighbouring France (most of it, in fact, is under France - so it's not so bad after all if it goes tits-up).

    I can go down there and get some brochures for you if you want more proof?

  • Razorus #43 3 years ago

    I agree with many of you guys here. Rare may have had the idea first, but Nintendo sure as hell didn't know about it, so Rare could have changed the designs. Still, I find it annoying that Xbox is going to use these avatars; especially since it looks more advanced than Miis. I wish Nintendo had improved the Mii channel rather than waste their time with Everybody Votes and other crap.

  • Les #44 3 years ago

    "Still, I find it annoying that Xbox is going to use these avatars; especially since it looks more advanced than Miis. I wish Nintendo had improved the Mii channel rather than waste their time with Everybody Votes and other crap."

    That's exactly the reason why Mii's have mass appeal and avatars will not.

  • makeamazing #45 3 years ago

    It sounds like a load of old rubbish to me, I used to love Rare, but this is what they have become... making Miis.

    No offence but how longs the Wii been out? How long has it taken for them to "Launch" their Miis.. and now they are trying to get credit for it... very sad indeed.

  • wingzerosys #46 3 years ago

    @Evil.

    Perfect Dark, Banjo Kazouiee (sp), Banjo tooie (sp), Conker's Bad Fur Day/Live & Reloaded, DK64, Blast Corp's, Jet Force Gemini, Kameo and Viva Piñata 1, 2 & PP all want a word with you.

    What's next, "We invented motion controllers before Nintendo", yeah right Rare.

    Microsoft copy every idea/company, I watched a programme about them.

    Before im accused of being a Sony fanboy, other than Sixasis/Trophies, I have no idea what else they've copied.

    Nintendo have made plenty of original ideas, Dpad, Rumble, Motion Controllers, I believe them over everyone else.
    Edited by 1 at 11/09/08 @ 19:49

  • PameBoy #47 3 years ago

    Oh for fuck's sake now that is just pathetic. This is the same level as those ridiculous playground arguments everyone used to have.

    "I got three gold stars today!"
    "Yeah well I already got three gold stars last week"
    "Oh, well.. I got three gold stars the week before that anyway, you just didn't know"
    "Yeah well I got three gold stars the first day when i got here, nobody did it before me"
    etc. etc. ad infinitum

  • menage #48 3 years ago

    @evilfoxhound

    Yesterday

    "Something happens in these forums that has puzzled me for years. People comment on articles for games that they don't even like."

    today

    "Instead of crap that nobody wants, how about making good games instead.

    Rare hasn't made a decent game since Goldeneye. Yet they are still held in high reguard for some odd reason. "

    This may be about mii ripoffs but you're using it to take a stab at Rare for making games you don't like. I'm not taking it personal, you're just a dubious character who accuses people of doing one thing and does the same thing when it suits you. You don't care about 360, we get it. But I'll bet you'll find some parallel universe where this kind of shit makes sense.

  • Lebowski #49 3 years ago

    Can I just ask what feck you're supposed to do with this things outside of them being in XBLA quiz games? Do they walk around your dashboard and finally sort out the Arctic Monkeys and Bjork videos being mixed up? Or do you have to feed them MS points to buy them a f**king Xmas-themed scarf?

  • Les #50 3 years ago

    "Yet they are still held in high reguard for some odd reason."

    Being patriotism... ;)

  • dylman #51 3 years ago

    You know, these Avatars can be turned off. They aren't compulsory, and you don't have to pay for them.

    Just saying...
    Edited by 1 at 11/09/08 @ 21:56

  • DrkrZen #52 3 years ago

    I'm sure someone else stated this, but the Mii concept has been around since the NES... back when Rare was just a small company and long before anytime around the launch of this generation of consoles, as well as when Rare claims to have "started working on the avatars" for the 360.

    But yeah, Microsoft DOES copy a lot of ideas, and they're doing so with their competitors consoles because, I think the numbers show, they're running out of gas. Throwing money at PS3 exclusives to get a run down port on the 360, putting the Avatars into action following the success of the Wii/Mii, and then the rumors of a motion controller in the vein of the Wii's.

    And, to think I actually missed these guys… Nintendo’s better off without them ‘cuz that just means there’s less bad/mediocre games on their system. They’ve gone downhill ever since 2000, but this just sinks them to a new low.

    Finally, for the record, I wish everyone would stop comparing Achievements and Trophies. Sony didn't copy Microsoft there, since a SONY PUBLISHED game came up with the idea looooong ago in a game we all know as Spyro 2: Ripto's Rage. So, if anything, Microsoft didn't do it first, nor did they perfect it, but rather copied a video game developer's idea from nearly a decade ago that's still going strong today.

    Sorry for the mini-rant, but this kind of stuff that Rare, and most likely Microsoft that put them up to this, erks me to hell and back. It's just plain ridiculous, and you don't see Sony or Nintendo doing this type of stuff, or at least not as consistently, regularly and like clockwork as Microsoft.

  • Lebowski #53 3 years ago

    Oi! Everybody Votes and Mario Kart are the only reasons I still switch the bloody Wii on any more.

    Should the Wii have more decent games by now?

    Yes- 99%
    No - 1%

  • RazorObsession #54 3 years ago

    Something tells me that Rare are being force fed lines by the higher ups. Even they must know how ridiculous it all sounds, even if it is true.

    Admittedly Avatars have been around for donkeys years on the PC, and regardless of Ninty putting them on the Wii, they only appear on Xbox now because the Wii itself has done so damn well for itself.

    If Nintendo had come a distant third in the console race with Mii's on their console, avatars wouldn't be appearing on the Xbox.

  • Calgon #55 3 years ago

    Hang on so the general idea here is... it doesnt matter if it was an original idea to begin with if someone got their first, anyone who does something similar is copying?

    So since MS were last to join the race they are labeled copiers by default? "omg the nerve of them they have controllers and games too" Does gaming destroy people common sense or what? Does that not sound stupid to you because it should.

    What about LIVE? Its obvious both Nintendo's and Sony's services were both heavily influenced by it(Sony even stole the guide button thingy too "the fuckers throw out your PS3s Kaz Hirai cant be trusted, bring it all down!";), Live Arcade and XNA came before Virtual Console and Wii-Ware, therefore Nintendo are copiers!!! OMG!!! I hate them now!

    Sony arent innovative stop saying they are because its all come from third parties... any company can scout for other peoples concepts and ideas it happens all the time.

    Really I think most MS haters are the type of people who cant think for themselves, so no matter what MS do; they could offer free games and money and beer and they would still wouldnt change their perception... their answers are always the same "MS monopoly though innit... they just want the same here" Sony dont? Not a money grabbing corporation?, could they though?
    No the authorities would step in long before either of them succeeded and sue the shit out of either of them.

    Or "Just givin Bill Gates more money" hows it any better going to another suit? Atleast Gates gives to charity(doesnt he hold a record for that?) and plans to actually give most of his fortune away through his personal charity organisation. Let me guess its all made up or "he gets it back through tax breaks" LOL... again nothing will change some peoples perception its just an excuse to pretend theres a deeper meaning to their hatred of a console... maybe they convince themselves too a little that their choice is more noble some how "yep doin my bit :D" lol Load of cobblers!!

  • BartonFink #56 3 years ago

    We have some real all knowing characters in here don't we ...

  • menage #57 3 years ago

    And gasp, guess what Home characters look like. Freaking humans.

  • Bulbatron #58 3 years ago

    Even if it is true, I don't see why they feel the need to tell people this. I don't think it will convince anybody who doesn't like the Avatars.

    dylman, I didn't realise that Avatars could be turned off.
    Edited by 1 at 12/09/08 @ 09:06

  • onyxbox #59 3 years ago

    @OldRed

    Sony ripped off motion control - Nobody criticised them

    You are joking right?

    Sony had the shit ripped out of them for months on that one.

    On a more serious note tho... I think when Mii's came out we all recognised it as something quite new and charming in the console world. We already knew about Home but that was more like a traditional online social thing like Second Life and Sony took a fair amount and still do about it just being a Second Life rip off.

    The XBox Mii's are very similar to the Wii Mii's and the concept is very similar in style, even the icons and stuff look the same and the only diffrentiator - clothes - is ill conceived as 'fashion' is a highly emotive subject and one that Nintendo sensibly avoided. By not having clothes to customise I think Mii's work better - focusing more on the face etc. Both Home and Avatars will suffer from: 'I don't want my Avatar to wear any of that shit'.

    So in short I think:

    Home is just a console version of what's been around on PC for years.

    Avatars are just XBox version of Mii's (with clothes)

    And Nintendo got it right.

  • menage #60 3 years ago

    @noyxbox

    Pretty accurate there. Although I do hope both home and the xbox avatars (are they called that?) have more options then the Wii ones, cause they all look the same :p
    Edited by 1 at 12/09/08 @ 09:10

  • holydrone #61 3 years ago

    Rare have created some of the ugliest, clumsiest character designs in (probably) the whole of human history. They even managed to wreck Donkey Kong for all eternity. Trust Microsoft, the kings of mucky design, to entrust an all-pervading avatar system to the creative pigpen responsible for a slew of sub,sub,sub disney, aesthetic juvenilia.

  • kangarootoo #62 3 years ago

    Oh who cares. Really. WHO CARES.

    Everybody copies everyone else. That is just business. Nobody over the age of 14 should give a rats ass in a high wind whether someone copied someone elses idea or not. The quality of the final product is all that is important, not who thought of it first.

    Jesus, I mean I wonder if people are on the brink of heading down to MS HQ to stand outside pointing and chating "copier copier" at the employees as they leave.

    Shall we stamp on their new shoes or make fun of their new haircuts while we are at it?

  • IronCladChicken #63 3 years ago

    Angry, angery Xbox owners - You are funny in your child-like ways, little monkeys

  • kangarootoo #64 3 years ago

    Its got nothing to do with what platform people own. All childish fanboys are nobheads, regardless of their chosen "love".

  • Les #65 3 years ago

    "Everybody copies everyone else. That is just business. Nobody over the age of 14 should give a rats ass in a high wind whether someone copied someone elses idea or not. The quality of the final product is all that is important, not who thought of it first."

    Don't fully agree. First, there's something called IP rights. Thinking (and registering) something first can earn you a lot of money. Second, copying other's behaviour can tell you something about the state of a company. Which can be interesting in its own right. Sony felt unconfortable with removing rumble and included motion controls at the last minute, probably also to be able to put it on the box like the Wii. And now MS feels uncomfortable with yet again a loss leader that fails to break into the mainstream and tries to emulate Sony (Lips, that movie quiz game and each and every former third party exclusive) and Nintendo (Avatars). While Sony tries (foolishly) to win the hardcore by including trophies and in-game XMB.

  • kinky_mong #66 3 years ago

    Rare have created some of the ugliest, clumsiest character designs in (probably) the whole of human history. They even managed to wreck Donkey Kong for all eternity.

    Sorry, How did they wreck Donkey Kong? The character hadn't been used for years and then Rare turned out 3 sublime platformers on the SNES and a reasonable one for the N64 using the character. If anyone cocked up the franchise it's when Nintendo took it back and made crap like Konga Beat and Jet Race. Rare fucked up Starfox that's true and they've had some bad few years with Microsoft but they're finding their feet again with Viva Pinata and I for one am really looking forward to Nuts & Bolts.

  • holydrone #67 3 years ago

    Sorry, How did they wreck Donkey Kong?

    I was talking from a "character-design" point of view! Nobody can deny that the SNES Kong games were pretty good. It's just that with them Rare demonstrated their visual-design philosophy of technology over technique and turned the iconic character into a lumbering pile of blobs... which sadly Nintendo hasn't really seen to rectify.

    If anyone cocked up the franchise it's when Nintendo took it back and made crap like Konga Beat and Jet Race.

    I would take Jungle Beat over the Country games, though.

  • BartonFink #68 3 years ago

    I see Les is in full swing ... entertaining as usual.
    But you should get your facts straight Les.

    The reason Sony left out rumble was because they were involved in a court case with Immersion over IP rights.
    The sixaxis has more in common with an old MS sidewinder controller that was out long before Nintendo conceived motion controls in Wii. Heck you could even go as far as saying Nintendo copied Sega for their Wiimote if you dig hard enough.

    They all copy every single one of them. Are Avatars now solely belonged to Nintendo since they included Miis? Avatars/Miis were around long before Nintendo brought out the Wii. Nintendo copied XBLA. Sony copied XBLA, Achievements, motion controller.

    See they all copy. Who gives a flying fuck if they do and the ideas are good. At the end of the day if it improves gaming then it's good for us. Unless of course you are a MS/Sony/Nintendo hater/fantard then I suppose it matters.

    For gamers it's all good.

  • subtlesnake #69 3 years ago

    "No, but they did make it mass-market for the casual cretins. And very obviously anything similar which launches two years later is going to be accused as being blatantly influenced by this success. For Rare to deny this is just complete bullshit."

    I don't see them denying that. There are two different things here: 1.) Rare's original idea to have avatars that work across games, which is a fairly logical step and something they could have easily have thought up on their own. 2.) Microsoft's decision to make the avatars part of the dashboard, and the 'center' for the 360' experience which yes, was a probably a reaction to the Miis.

    Rare are saying that they're responsible for 1, and when they approached MS and everything starting coming together the Mii's arrived, which redeemed what they were doing - and perhaps was a factor in MS prioritising avatars.

  • kangarootoo #70 3 years ago

    @Les

    As for as intellectual IP goes, that is not really my point and its certainly not what people on here are getting their noses out of joint about.

    And I'm not really sure it tells you much about a company, other than to tell you that all companies are much the same. Having new ideas is only part of the process. Implementing the ideas effectively is FAR more important. Which is why I say the only thing that matters is the end product. If someone has a bold new and original idea, but make a total balls up of implementing it as a game, why would I as a gamer care about the history of the fun-free experience that is laid before me.

  • Vin #71 3 years ago

    Before im accused of being a Sony fanboy, other than Sixasis/Trophies, I have no idea what else they've copied.

    Nintendo have made plenty of original ideas, Dpad, Rumble, Motion Controllers, I believe them over everyone else.

    Christ.

  • kangarootoo #72 3 years ago

    @wingzerosys

    "Nintendo have made plenty of original ideas, Dpad, Rumble, Motion Controllers, I believe them over everyone else."

    When did this become an issue of belief?

    Every company copies other companies. All of them.

    Here is an example for you. Nintendo was founded in 1989. I was playing games on a games console in my home in the late 70s.

    NINTENDO COPIED goes out the cry. OMFGLOLz and so on.

  • FogHeart #73 3 years ago

    MS-DOS started life as PC-DOS from IBM
    Windows 95 came about when MS decided they should quickly knock together a buggy graphical front end to an operating system to get a leg up on OS/2
    Active Directory looked a hell of a lot like Novell NDS when it came out
    DirectX versus OpenGL
    Was Word the first word processor? Excel the first spreadsheet?
    There's not much originality coming from Richmond...but by making the first version that's accessible to the mainstream there's often the illusion that they are originators. They improve on existing ideas very well but when going up against Sony and Nintendo they can't laugh at a smaller company whose products were first to market but don't get recognition for it, and can't assume that their version of anything will be significantly better than their competitors.

  • menage #74 3 years ago

    True, MS did rip off a lot. I don't hear PC gamers complaining though. All I hear is how superior pc's are for gaming.

  • Skywise #75 3 years ago

    Given the time they need to make a game, I'd believe them :-)