Rare: Kinect lag "not an issue"

By Johnny Minkley Published 18 June, 2010

Past problems overcome, insists studio.

Is lag a problem for Kinect? Not according to Rare, the studio tasked with producing one of its flagship launch titles, Kinect Sports.

Speaking to Eurogamer in LA this week, Nick Burton, exec producer of technology and communications for the Britsoft veteran, claimed earlier problems had been overcome. "Lag is not an issue," he said. "As with any prototype stuff, of course it was in the past. That's to be expected.

"Where we're at now, not at all. Yes, we've done a lot work to make sure it wasn't a problem, but when you've got something that's copying what you're doing you can't have a lot of lag."

Burton said lag for Kinetic Sports is set at 150ms which, as Digital Foundry smarty-pants Richard Leadbetter pointed out, does not include TV lag.

Lag is more evident in some titles than others at E3 this week and, since some degree of it is unavoidable, the onus will be on developers to work around it to ensure acceptable response times.

Meanwhile, the studio was also keen to dispel the belief - amplified by the recent rebranding - it was now focusing exclusively on casual games.

"It's been the focus for the past couple of years, but we're going to do all kinds of stuff," Burton said. "Obviously the rebrand for us was more about we wanted to freshen up the image - it was just time for a chance. We've done it before, we'll probably do it again.

"We are continually looking at what the next thing's going to be. It might be casual, it might be core, we've had such an eclectic mix over the years and we'll continue to do that."

He added: "It's not always going to be as casual as [Kinect Sports]; this is just something we got really excited about."

Burton refused, however, to be drawn on the studio's other projects, stating: "This is the only Rare game you're seeing at the moment."

While Kinect Sports can be seen as filling the 'Wii Sports' role in the initial Kinect line-up, Burton said the experience on offer is far more advanced.

"There's so much more data, so much more fidelity, so many more things you can do," he said. "Kinect's not just about tracking - there's voice recognition, identity, so many things. It's more than the sum of its parts. I've been involved for a couple of years and even now we're like, "Wow, there's all these things we could do!"

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About Johnny Minkley

Eurogamer TV's Johnny Minkley is a veteran journalist with a lifelong passion for games and the games industry. He uses Twitter more than most people use air.

Read more articles from Johnny by visiting the Johnny Minkley archive page.

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Comments (50) Latest comment 2 years ago

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  • RodHull #1 2 years ago

    What about the lag in releasing Killer Instinct 3?

  • jamhead #2 2 years ago

    "Wow, there's all these things we could do"

    So many you can only give 2 examples?

  • theonlyix #3 2 years ago

    I must agree with him. The possibilities for Nata...err Kinect are endless!

  • cyacomini #4 2 years ago

    Defense Grid Kinect - I'd buy that for a dollar!

  • Doctor_What #5 2 years ago

    I was really hoping my opinion on the abilities of Kinect were going to be changed this E3. Sadly they weren't.

  • flaming.carrot #6 2 years ago

    You can definitely see the lag in the in-use videos I've seen - quite a noticeable delay between the persons movement and the on-screen reaction. The Sony Move in comparison is a much faster response, which is surprising as they both have a camera and have to track something (Kinect being your body and Move being those stupid-looking glowing orbs).
    Depends on how devs roll this tech into their games though I guess. In theory you could use an XBox controller to move about in a FPS and the camera to track head movement and ducking/dodging with your body - would be pretty neat.

  • HornsDino #7 2 years ago

    But can you use it sitting down? All reports to date say no!
    Edited by 1 at 18/06/10 @ 09:44

  • Britesparc Verified Creative, ITV #8 2 years ago

    As Digital Foundry pointed out, there will always be "biological lag", so the trick is in making games where you don't feel the lag - eg. constructing a game so you feel you need to move a milisecond quicker than normal, jumping that little earlier, etc.

    I don't imagine it'll be an issue, except in the cheapo shovelware.

  • jonbwfc #9 2 years ago

    "I don't imagine it'll be an issue, except in the cheapo shovelware."
    Which there will probably be an awful lot of, sadly.

  • onyxbox #10 2 years ago

    Kinect lag "not an issue" - Says Microsoft's biggest Kinect developer... hmm... who do you trust... them or the public perception so far?

  • GiarcYekrub #11 2 years ago

    I thought Nick was one of their particle graphic shader gurus what the hell is he working on Kinect Sports for?

  • Ryze #12 2 years ago

    Oh shit. So that countdown shit they did, was a countdown to the announcement of Avatar based Natal crap.

    Thanks for surprising me, Rare.

  • kangarootoo #13 2 years ago

    /waits for independant source

  • erp #14 2 years ago

    Hmmm, I think I'll wait for someone a bit more... impartial, for opinion on whether the lag is an issue. But thanks all the same, Rare.

  • Skooch #15 2 years ago

    "So many you can only give 2 examples?"

    Huh? He didn't give two examples, he gave two FEATURES of the product. Two completely different things.

    To be fair, RARE are always going to say this. My thoughts on Kinect is that it will take some getting used to, but not because of lag, more because gamers just aren't use to moving their whole body to do something, they are used to instant response. For example, to hit a ball we are used to just pressing a button and hey presto, having to swing our arm back and then forward takes a hell of a lot longer.

  • Der_tolle_Emil #16 2 years ago

    While the lag was clearly noticeable on the videos I don't think it will be a huge problem. The Wiimote has lag as well and if implemented properly it really doesn't matter. Even the very first titles like Wii Tennis work great even with the lag; You really don't notice it when you are actually playing the game.

    Lag is probably the last thing to worry about when it comes to Kinect.

  • Paulie_P #17 2 years ago

    Maybe lag won't be an issue with the games Rare release but it'll definitely be an issue for games released by developers who simply don't have the ability or have harsh deadlines to meet.

    Then again this could also apply to the wii and Move.

  • brseg #18 2 years ago

    Watching videos from E3, it does look a bit laggy, which is quite disappointing. I think I'm right in saying that originally natal had a cpu in it, which they ditched (cost, presumably). I was really hoping for an accurate tennis sim, or just an accurate fps using motion control, but this all looks unlikely.

    On top of that, I read that you have to be standing up to use it, which kills off quite a few more possibilities, i.e. adding some secondary motion control to a standard game.

    As @Mogs said, it does sound like wii mk2, in which case I'd get a wii.
    Edited by 1 at 18/06/10 @ 10:25

  • CrumpledPaper #19 2 years ago

    It's really worrying that they're saying 150ms excluding TV lag is acceptable. It means they can't, or don't intend to fix it. And as DF pointed out, it seems like the same level of lag shown in those earlier prototype versions of Ricochet etc.

    Paulie - I think lag's a much bigger deal when you're trying to do 1:1 full body mapping. The physicality of that, with the disconnect on what's happening on the screen, I think it'll be a lot more noticeable than lag with a gamepad.

    In the Your Shape demo it looked truly awful, it was lagging so far behind that with fast movements, the woman was one or two full motions ahead of her on-screen character. Like when she was ducking side to side, the game was one to two ducks behind her.

    I'm also worried about the capture rate on the camera. 30fps is going to miss a lot of fast, short motion.
    Edited by 1 at 18/06/10 @ 10:28

  • DoctorFraud #20 2 years ago

    Will be about as laggy as Killzone controls. Most laggy piece of crap game I've ever played.

  • Captain_Jono #21 2 years ago

    Lag not an issue eh? *puts on sceptical hat*

  • TheJuriel #22 2 years ago

    Lag is painfully obvious in the gameplay vids being shown, and I cannot imagine it will feel in any way natural when playing it.

    Plus, no real games designed for it, it seems. I guess I could use it for browsing videos and playing slow turn-based games... oh, some reports say it cannot be used while sitting?

    Perhaps next gen.

  • DoctorFraud #23 2 years ago

    @Anthony_Daniels

    Just as well as 360 owners wouldnt go for such substandard rubbish.

    Killzone belongs on the Playstation, where no-one actually cares about gameplay.

  • Eraysor #24 2 years ago

    Alas, I fear Microsoft and Sony have blown most of their money on making motion-based controls four years late and handed Nintendo a huge development advantage. Where is the PSP2?

    EDIT: fanboy attack! Killzone 2 was great.
    Edited by 1 at 18/06/10 @ 10:58

  • beastmaster #25 2 years ago

    Think it'll take time for developers to get to grips with it. Software (or should that be games?) will improve. I really like the look of it.

  • coolbritannia #26 2 years ago

    Fanboy attack 2: Electric Boogaloo. Killzone is a poor excuse for a shooter. Killzone 3 looks remarkably like COD2.

  • Beano #27 2 years ago

    Microsoft employee defends Microsoft product. News at 10.

  • Davemanz #28 2 years ago

    Most people have seen the lag being an issue from the start. As soon as Kinect and Move were first rumored/announced/whatever, it was really clear that MS' offering would be the far more ambitious one. That's what drew a lot of people to it, but it was never going to be possible to have any technology that advanced working without lag, at a reasonable price tag, anyway.

    Sony's plan, by comparison, was based on proven technology that could produce relatively cheap motion control that works without lag. I don't plan on buying a Move, but if I did it wouldn't matter that it's not much of a technological marvel like Kinect was billed to be; it responds more quickly and is likely more precise.

    Both companies are putting a lot of resources into this stuff and I'm not sure there's still a huge market out there who has a Wii but wants more. If both of them fail, though, I have to think Microsoft loses more, since they have to have invested more in the technology and will probably be selling the Kinect at a loss.
    Edited by 1 at 18/06/10 @ 12:05

  • flaming.carrot #29 2 years ago

    Difference is, I'll be buying Move and using it. If Kinect and it's games had looked better I may have considered jumping in to the Xbox crowd too. So far nothing about Kinect compels me sadly.

  • f.svehla #30 2 years ago

    How about a real Banjo-Kazooie 3?

  • Nikanoru #31 2 years ago

    "There's so much more data, so much more fidelity, so many more things you can do,"

    Yet, as I've read from reports and what a developer admitted, it can't detect spin in your wrist when bowling, something even the original 2006 Wiimote could do.

  • Calgon #32 2 years ago

    2 Things you fanboys should be aware of...

    1) The golf game demo'd at E3 had obvious lag. So its a problem for Move too and to say how much simpler their implementation is I find that really poor.

    2) There has been absolutely NO confirmation that you have to be stood up for the device itself, of the games that have been shown you do have to stand up. What has been said is they are still calibrating for siting down for Kinect, you know because they are still working on it and improving it and will do so up untill and beyond launch most probably, the skelelton tracking part is all part of the software, the hardware just captures RGB and 3D depth images and audio. Hardware side they are just limited by the speed of USB, the framerate of the camera perhaps(but 30fps was to be expected given the bandwith limitations).

    To me it looks like theres a lot of cynical wishful thinking(already we've seen haters jump to conclusions on numerous ocassions over the littlest things, some hack on IGN nobody usually listens to is now suddenly the authority on kinect? Give me a break), its as if they beleive that its all fixed and hardware based(example "the camera cant tell when you are sat down";) when most of lag is coming software side and most of the magic happens software side, so the beleif that "what we see is what we get now because its launching soon" is a stupid one.

    It will probably be improved by launch and it will probably keep improving after launch continously. Then we have the fact that alot of it will depend on the devs, theres joypad based games which have obvious lag lets not forget and some that dont seem to have any at all. To expect it to match the speed of simple controller is asking a bit much in terms of lag... its doing alot more, you have audio and video anyone whos ever waved their arm infront of even a highend USB webcam should have a think about that for a second and then think about how much more its doing ontop of that and tell me it isnt impressive even at this stage what theyve acheived(faster than eyetoy already looks like to me) and it will only improve from here on in.
    Edited by 1 at 18/06/10 @ 18:41

  • Calgon #33 2 years ago

    Nikanoru but he didnt say it could do absolutely everything did he, he said it can do more and it can overall... alot more.
    Edited by 1 at 18/06/10 @ 18:41

  • TRUTH #34 2 years ago

    It's Rare that suffer from proper game lag...more shovel ware, thanks MS & Rare.

  • Capa26 #35 2 years ago

    @ Calgon

    So you're now willing to except that there was a display of lag in some of the videos during the conference then?

    You suggested anyone making such a claim was lying during the actual conference...

  • Nephirion #36 2 years ago

    While I am not really interested in Kinetic a high price point would definately put me off if I had a casual interest. For those in Europe the price is bound to be hiked anyway.
    Edited by 1 at 18/06/10 @ 23:48

  • Calgon #37 2 years ago

    Capa26 no I suggested anyone saying it looked slow and laggy was talking out of their ass because it didnt(evident means obvious but you had to look closely... very closely to notice it, ie make a big problem over very little ;) you know its true) and yes I said obvious for the golf game where you had to look just as closely to spot it(it was there) but thats kind of the point. I bet you never said the same of move did you? ;)
    Edited by 1 at 19/06/10 @ 05:48

  • Geordiemp #38 2 years ago

    @ Calgon

    I agree with the Golf demo only. It would make sense to run the eye at say 120 FPS and have an outline of the golfer and try to get the swing on the screen in time with your motion and cut out the fancy woods animation completely. Maybe another dev will get it right ?

    The sorcery game and the fighting game with swords etc on the move have promise, this type of game would be good on move. REIV was great on the Wii...

    For Kinect, the games just looked bad SO FAR, maybe it will improve after 6 months or so. I would like to think so, but at the moment Move is a buy and Kinect is a wait and see.

  • riceNpea #39 2 years ago

    MS may think lag is not an issue but 'gesture' control may well be. having to rely on the kinect to interpret my gestures accurately and translate that onto the game i think may be a problem especially as kinect doesn't map your fingers. the point made on the recent Move interview here on EG about button control over gesture is valid. people i think prefer a tactile feedback to the action the want to perform. read the article, it's quite interesting.

  • dsmx #40 2 years ago

    If your saying that lag isn't an issue rather than there is no perceivable lag then it will an issue that will impact on people playing the game. No matter how well you design a game if there is a perceivable delay between your actions and what happens on the screen then people will feel the game is slow and unresponsive.

  • IronCladChicken #41 2 years ago

    Company owned by Microsoft says Microsoft's products are good.
    There's a freaking shocker for you.

  • captainrentboy #42 2 years ago

    Lag or no lag the general public seem to be going crazy for Kinect, in my store it's gathering up the quickest amount of preorders/deposits I can remember for an upcoming product. Folks are also going mental for any news on the 3DS, which is to be expected. Move?? Not so much.

  • makeamazing #43 2 years ago

    Yeah it does seem that some people are going crazy for it... but you know what.. the main reason is because most users dont frequent gaming sites, so they dont know of the issues and problems of said devices.

    You go onto the stores that are selling it such as amazon etc, they are still showing these fake no controller fighting (kungfu) "product vision" videos. People are so easily sheep led.

    But one thing is certain, if they havent solved the issues before release, then the backlash could do them more harm than good.

  • CaptainKid #44 2 years ago

    150 ms lag.
    So if I play an online shooter with the thing I not only get the normal internet lag which is considerable if the game is hosted on someone's xbox, PLUS an additional 150ms??
    I thought Natal was also meant to replace the controls on normal, not casual party, games?
    Edited by 1 at 20/06/10 @ 15:24

  • Arwin #45 2 years ago

    @notmyrealname: well right now, they don't have it working sitting down yet, so that conjunction with your controller isn't quite there yet! I do believe they'll get there though, no question. But it may take some time.

  • AOFanboi #46 2 years ago

    <em>I thought Natal was also meant to replace the controls on normal, not casual party, games?</em>

    Yes, that surprised me, that they only had Wii-clone games apart from a mere hint at using it in a driving game,. But that demo stopped just as soon as the "start engine" button had been pressed, having only demonstrated flailing at menu screens and UI buttons before that. No indication of how the "proper" driving game handled, what with gear shifting etc. - i.e. more complec controils than for the arcade-racer they demoed as well.

  • des #47 2 years ago

    "I thought Natal was also meant to replace the controls on normal, not casual party, games?"

    Kinect was never meant to replace controls on "normal,non casual party" games,that was clear from day one,some optional stuff yes,but basic controls no.

    Why would you want that?Look at Wii,look at new waggle Zelda...Do you really want something like that while playing shooters?

    If people want more precise controls,maybe they should beg for mouse and keyboard on consoles because that is the most precise control method.

  • CaptainKid #48 2 years ago

    "Why would you want that?Look at Wii,look at new waggle Zelda...Do you really want something like that while playing shooters? "
    No, not with the Kinect since you can't use buttons.
    But I could see shooters being fun to play with the Wii mote PLUS.
    If they would get the controls right and NO lag and precise not scripted movement.

  • paultendo #49 2 years ago

    The lag most likely won't be an issue, I'm sure developers will find ways to make it relatively unnoticeable. The lack of tactile feedback might be an issue though... I wonder if at some stage we'll see an Xbox version of the Wiimote?

  • funkateer #50 2 years ago

    @Calgon

    "1) The golf game demo'd at E3 had obvious lag. So its a problem for Move too and to say how much simpler their implementation is I find that really poor. "

    It's true that the golf demo had a disappointingly high level of lag. However, many other move demos we've seen so far were amazingly responsive. My take on this is that the golf demo's lag is a matter of software implementation in this demo itself, not some inherent lag in Move.

    That said, I partially agree with the rest of your post; there's probably room for a lot of improvement on the software side of things for Kinect.
    But otoh it's probably wishful thinking that Kinect might be able to get the same level of responsiveness as Move (seeing that Move does not rely solely on camera alone to do motion estimation, but has some orientation/gravity sensors as well to help out), but we'll see....

    And then again; as DF mentioned, does it matter that much for Kinect? For Move, I'd say Yes, but Kinect is an entirely different beast where quick hand/finger reactions seem to be kind of taken out of scope altogether.
    As I see it: Move is for quick and precise gestures, Kinect is for the big 'full body' gestures.