World of Warcraft Comments by Kieron Gillen

/waits in queue to comment.

No, I insist - after you!

I've been playing this since release, and entirely agree :)

The grouping issue got to me slightly aswell. Sometimes you have so many quests ongoing (not a bad thing) that you get side tracked from meeting up and spending time in groups of friends. I think I've only really been in a full group for an instanced quest, and as soon as that instance was over, so was the group. Whilst this makes groups easy to pick up and drop, it seems it has the same effect on people's attention spans. I do like soloing, however, so I guess I'm suck inbetween.

I played a lot of DAoC a few years ago, and the differences are vast. I mean this in no detremental way to DAoC, but MMOG gaming has been polished up to a great standard with WoW; I'm definately there for the forseeable future.

Cheers Kieron :)

Just read Silke's comment. I'm an RP nut, I have to say; I was torn when the server options came up. I decide to go PvP largely because of the amount of EG forumites heading there, and also because I like a bit of Player Vs. Player action. I suppose that if the RP servers proved to have some kind of PvP to get into, I could very much see myself heading there: the WoW world looks great to RP in.

Oh.

Well, I like it. I like it a LOT. Maxed out on the X800 card is something amazingly special. The Guild channels work seamlessly, animations are excellent. I just seem to spend ages wandering around just looking at the world. It's amazing stuff.

Works equally well on the Mac and doesn't grind everything down like other engines. For supporting the Mac platform and doing such a superb job, I'd add a one.

/waits in queue with Nemesis. Am having to hold back Halo-esque comments ...

"And when i finally joined the RP server Argent Dawn (i'm playing the US version) - among the first things i did was meet more friendly and entertaining people than i've ever had in WoW before."

I'm going to lose my Broadband next week, and I'm thinking that when I come back, rather than playing catch up with my friends, I'll restart on a RP server.

My general rule of games - choose the RP server. Because even if you don't RP, the people who want to are smarter.

KG

CoH and WoW are the only two MMORPGs I've played. (If you ignore a couple of hours I spent with Everquest many years ago that was almost enough to put me off the genre for life.)

I'm not really qualified to judge, having only played WoW for a week so far, but I only played CoH for a couple of weeks before never touching it again. My main problems with CoH were -

1) Inability to solo. I do like a good team-up, but if friends aren't available I generally prefer to do things alone. This is probably the factor that killed CoH for me, given that it was impossible for my Defender to quest alone.

2) Nothing to do but fight. Now fighting in CoH was fun with a group of people, no denying it, but that's all there was.

3) Sidekicking system not working properly. This was near launch, but when I did try to SK with a friend of mine a couple of times, we couldn't find any enemies that would give us both XP.

4) Lack of rewards. In CoH each new ability (and that's about all you got to play with) came a long way apart. The last time I played CoH was when I learned flight. After that I just didn't have any goal left to play for and the game wasn't fun enough to keep me playing any longer.

Now, compare that to WoW where my Warlock's got up to level fifteen without teaming with anyone for more than five minutes. I've learned to make shirts and become addicted to the auction house. And it's giving me shiny new toys of various kinds every few minutes.

One of my friends got the game a few days after me and we've never seen each other, because there's no point in meeting up. If the SK system in CoH has been debugged (or if I could work out something I was doing wrong) that's one advantage CoH has. But, not to be harsh, I have more than one friend.

And a further plus for WoW is the way it looks. I'd much rather stare at WoW for five hours (about how long my PC lasts before overheating and forcing me to do something less boring instead) than CoH.

Oh, yes, and my pet Voidwalker rocks.

But, yes, CoH was a two week wonder, which I enjoyed greatly until all my friends either started lagging behind or overtaking me in levels. Will I still be playing WoW in a month?

on thunderhorn, having a laugh

Good post therev, I've been wondering whether I should get WoW or CoH; I think you've just convinced me to go for WoW.

So it's as good as Halo then.

Well in this case that sums it up for me. I think you got it wrong then and I think you got it wrong now. There are a lot of forum regulars that have many, many, many (just look at Blerk!) different tastes and opinions on games. I have not seen a game unite a group of gamers I respect like WoW. It is a tremendous piece of work (a little more entertaining then Mr. Pants!) and stamped with the Blizzard attention to detail. That aside it is all about opinions and clearly I have a differing view. If 8/10 is good for Halo then it's good enough for me.

(Silke has summed up the CoH vs WoW thing pretty well for me!)

WoW has been nice to play a bit more occasionally than you would expect for a MMORPG - sure there are a bunch of people level 30 and above already that mean you start thinking "What's the point?" - but I don't get much time to play games and I've managed to creep up to level 12 at my own pace, taking things slowly, exploring as I go.... It's a good MMORPG for non-MMORPG geeks, if that is possible :)

Don't disagree with too much there. Defenders (possible exception: Controllers) are the hardest to solo with in City of Heroes, at least at lowish levels.

KG

1) Area's & graphics are terribly generic and derivative, while you could level the same criticism at WC3, it just seemed different.

2) Interface is basic, and pretty much exactly apes Horizon's

3) Chat system is pretty poor compared to other MMOG's

4) Crafting is basic, especially compared to Horizons & EQ2

5) NPC & Player trading is again, extremely basic, and poor.

6) PVP is dull & lacklustre(same as EQ2, Horizons, Eve and pretty much every other game)

7) Too many quests are "Go forth and kill 100000000 Snow Wolves"(Again, same argument can levelled at most other mmog's)

8) Balance is pretty bad

9) Crafting & PVE is fairly boring compared to some other games.


It's polished, but derivative, boring & on the whole, soulless.

Much rather play CoH, Eve, or even Neocron(*spits*) to this.

Considering I didnt really like CoH, actively disliked Eve, and hated what Neocron became, that about sums up what I think of WoW.

I'm finding the social thing to be not to bad. I play with my flatmate most of the time and we speak via teamspeak. We are also in the rllmuk horde guild which must have 30-40 members or so and most nights we are up to some kind of grouped quest.

On the flip side, it's possible to go do quests on you own, which is something I appreciate. I tried FFXI for a while and doing something similar was a lot harder. You almost always had to find a party to complete quests. It was also much more of a grind.

As the second MMORPG I've played, I'm finding that I am enjoying WoW greatly and hope to continue playing it for a long while yet.

The one bit I didn't write in the review was an analysis of how different sorts of people are responding to WoW, depending on their experience with MMOs, etc. The fact it's getting so many people who *haven't* played MMOs is of definite note.

(Part of it relates to the "Big Boy" element. And the reason why they *are* a Big Boy is that they know how to make a game which really really makes the early game work well)

And people who *do* love Fantasy MMOs love it because it does most of the Fantasy MMO stuff better than virtually anyone else.

KG

"It's a good MMORPG for non-MMORPG geeks, if that is possible :) "

Exactly why I'm giving it a chance... Total MMORPG n00b... And I find myself excited at the prospect of WoW...

PvP or RP or PvE or whatever it is confuses me, but as I've never played the beta, or anything like this before, I'm hoping I'm going to enjoy whichever 'style' I end up playing... And enjoy making the choice.

I guess that's partly true KG.

An awful lot of people I've played with in eve, neocron & CoH bought WoW, tried it, and found it terribly lacking.

There are also quite a lot who liked it, but from my experience, they are outnumbered.

It's kind of sad though, that's its the Blizz name that attracts so many newcomers, and not that it's a super mmog.

Sorry, but.... 'meh'.

Oh, and Cosmos is great.

http://www.cosmosui.org/

It improves the WoW interface in a great many ways and all the bits can be turned on or off as you see fit. I wouldn't be without it.

And I've noticed my earlier post indicated that I hadn't teamed up but then talked about having more than one friend. It reads strangely. To clarify, I got to level fifteen early yesterday evening without having teamed up with anyone (except for two occassions where I'd joined a temporary team for a quick boss-kill), but then spent three or four hours with a group of four friends trying (and failing) to do an elite quest.

And that was more fun that soloing, but that's like saying Guinness is nicer than Spitfire. They're both fine pints and I'll quite happily spend time with either.

But, yes, the question still remains, how much WoW can I drink before I'm sick? I don't want to start talking about "best game ever" until I've spent more time with it.

(And just for the record, I'm no Blizzard fan. I didn't like Diablo II or Starcraft - was always more of a TA man. I did install Warcraft 3, but only did a couple of tutorial missions, as far as I remember.)

I get the same feeling with this as I got with Quake 3: certainly, it's not really doing anything new within the genre. It's not even trying to. It's taking what exists, and refining it as much as possible.

It's attempting to be the definition OF a genre.

...A genre which, unfortunately, I cannot stand (and yet I have the highest level character in the office. Go figure).

"But, yes, the question still remains, how much WoW can I drink before I'm sick? I don't want to start talking about "best game ever" until I've spent more time with it."

I really don't think it's even vaguely in "Best game Ever" region.

KG

"I really don't think it's even vaguely in "Best game Ever" region."

Well, I don't, either... at least not yet. I was really just saying I don't want to seem to be recommending it too much, given my limited play time with it. (A little over twenty hours, which is a lot for a week, but still only twenty hours.)

Meh, I'm enjoying EQII when i get the chance to play it and don't have the time for a second MMORPG.

Team Fortress mixed with WoW and i'm there!

/rocket jumps out of thread

It's kind of sad though, that's its the Blizz name that attracts so many newcomers, and not that it's a super mmog.

I think you are misunderstanding something here very, very deeply. Is WoW lacking compared to EVE? Yes, insofar as it's not nearly as complex. Hell, the ship configuration in EVE was more complex than WoW as a whole. But that's exactly why so many people bought WoW - not because it was made by Blizzard (though it certainly helped), but because you can "pick up and play" it. Remember the first time you booted up EVE? It's intimidating. Whereas you can boot WoW and don't need the manual even once if you've ever played an action-adventure/RPG before.

It's not nearly as "hardcore" as EVE, but to turn this into an argument against it, and to bemoan that it attracts so many people that would never have touched an MMORPG otherwise is ridiculous.


1) Area's & graphics are terribly generic and derivative, while you could level the same criticism at WC3, it just seemed different.

Funnily enough, I always hated the Warcraft games and their generic cartoon style, but find that the landscapes in WoW are insanely beautiful, with tons of character and charme. Horses for courses etc.

I think you are misunderstanding something UncleLou, how can people who have never tried other MMORPG's find them inaccessable at the start, or WoW easy to get started?

It's not even the easiest mmog to get started in, all that seperates it from EQ2, CoH and quite a few others, are the two names on the box "blizzard" and "warcraft".

"Funnily enough, I always hated the Warcraft games and their generic cartoon style, but find that the landscapes in WoW are insanely beautiful, with tons of character and charme. Horses for courses etc."
They are nice, but when riding a gryphon between towns, and being able to spot which game each area seemed to be an almost carbon copy replica of, kind of took away the shine

I think you are misunderstanding something UncleLou, how can people who have never tried other MMORPG's find them inaccessable at the start, or WoW easy to get started?


I don't know, ask them. The sales numbers speak for themselves. And you can't say it's just because it's Blizzard name - if anything, it's because Blizzard are known to make extremely accesible games.

And it's not like Everquest is published by an especially obscure and unknown company.

I dont get what the big deal is with this game. Sure its fun to play n all, but so are most mmo's when you first start. i havent really seen anything new here that i havent already seen done in other mmo's, but it is more polished and less complicated than other games.

I don't know, ask them. The sales numbers speak for themselves. And you can't say it's just because it's Blizzard name - if anything, it's because Blizzard are known to make extremely accesible games.
That's contradictory.
Either is is because of the name, or it isnt.

I'm not arguing that Blizz have a good name unjustly or anything like that.

And it's not like Everquest is published by an especially obscure and unknown company.
So, how many non-mmorpg players have heard of the world of Everquest, and know other games by its dev, SOE,

compared to:

Warcraft(1,2,3 and expansion packs), Diablo 1+2(and expansion packs), and starcraft(and expansion pack), and their developers, Blizzard?

"I think you are misunderstanding something UncleLou, how can people who have never tried other MMORPG's find them inaccessable at the start, or WoW easy to get started?

It's not even the easiest mmog to get started in, all that seperates it from EQ2, CoH and quite a few others, are the two names on the box "blizzard" and "warcraft".

"Funnily enough, I always hated the Warcraft games and their generic cartoon style, but find that the landscapes in WoW are insanely beautiful, with tons of character and charme. Horses for courses etc."
They are nice, but when riding a gryphon between towns, and being able to spot which game each area seemed to be an almost carbon copy replica of, kind of took away the shine "

I am one of those people who:
1. Bought this game
2. Never played a MMORPG before
3. Looked at eve, found it *WAY* too confusing (Also, these days, I just don't have that kind of time to invest in learning a new game.. Just want to play!).
4. Never played any Warcraft, or C&C type games (not interested in that genre)
5. Heard of Blizzard, but that wouldn't influence me (either for or againt) when buying a game made by them.
6. Always wondered if I would ever have enough time to play a 'persistant world' game... And ever stand a chance of 'surviving'.

I still bought WoW...

I'm not arguing that Blizz have a good name unjustly or anything like that.

It did sound like that. Or at least that they lured gamers into buying a crappy MMORPG with their good name.


That's contradictory.
Either is is because of the name, or it isnt.

Because of the reputation that is (justly) connected with that name.

Aynway, I still don't quite get your point. You bemoan that it's, of all great MMORPGS out there, the crappiest one of them all to attract a new audience? Instead of EVE, for example? Come on, I loved EVE, but it's easy to see why it's not for everyone. Correct me if I misunderstand you.

And don't try to tell me that EQ is less generic than WoW, please. ;)

WoW is a good starter mmog, it's basic, simple, accessable but highly polished.

Quite like a lot of Blizz's games :)

But being a mmog fan for four years, and pretty much trying them all, I'm dissapointed it took a high profile name, and a fairly bland MMOG to break out of the traditional market and lure in new blood(something even the Star Wars name failed to do, although Galaxies is infinitely inferior to WoW)

BTW, I dont like eve :P

It's not that I don't understand where you're coming from, but, as I've said before, I think it's exactly the things you criticise that attracted so many people: namely the fact that many things are a lot simpler than in other MMORPGs, and that you can play it a lot more "casually".

You've now said though that you didn't like EVE, WoW, CoH, SW:G and Neocron. Which MMORPG do you like, ffs? ;)

"I mean, people typing how they think a dwarf would speak? Come on now...."

That role playing. Its what many people do in role playing games surprisingly.

It's not that I don't understand where you're coming from, but, as I've said before, I think it's exactly the things you criticise that attracted so many people: namely the fact that many things are a lot simpler than in other MMORPGs, and that you can play it a lot more "casually".
Well, from the people I've talked to in-game(Azjol-Nerub & Warsong), most of the MMOG newbies bought it for being warcraft, not because of reviews or it being accessable :/

You've now said though that you didn't like EVE, WoW, CoH, SW:G and Neocron. Which MMORPG do you like, ffs? ;)
I loved Neocron for about 6 months, then the total lack of support, Reakktor's laughing at the games problems, zero high end content other then PVP, patches that unbalanced and broke more then they fixed/solved, and blatant racism from the german community - all caught up.

CoH was enjoyable enough, and I could see why people liked it, but it wasnt my cup of tea.

Eve was great for 3 or 4 months, but by then I'd done, seen and achieved most things.
All that was left, was to either
1)Keep making money for no real purpose
2)Partake in PVP which I found foul after neocron & planetside
3)Hunt down every item in the game and make a collection

Usually any MMOG I play only entertains me for a few months at most :|

and blatant racism from the german community - all caught up

Really? How did that manifest itself? :/

Usually any MMOG I play only entertains me for a few months at most :|

That's hardly a problem, though, is it? I don't think I could ever play a game for much more than a few months.

Really? How did that manifest itself? :/
Being part of the largest international clan on Uranus(teehee), we had almost every single german clan declare war on us(at least 20) at the same time, had their resident GM's harassing and threatening us, and had them making racist slurs in german at us :)(which they didnt think we could understand)



That's hardly a problem, though, is it? I don't think I could ever play a game for much more than a few months.
Honestly, a proper MMOG should be able to hold your attention for years, if not longer.

However, in this generation they havent been able to get right the mix between balance, content, player content & player effect on the game

I played it during the open beta and concluded that it was far too good and addictive for me to contemplate buying it until I've finished this term of university.

mmo's need more end bosses and instances make them more like phantasy star online and your heading in the right direction.

And a bloody story line to get into! (if you decide you want to play that way)

excuse me while i grind mob's constantly will you :)

I'm basically a new MMORPG player, however, I had played the Galaxies beta which was pants at the time (haven't played it since then so obviously I don't know what Sony has done since then).

I bought WoW cause:

1) I played the beta and enjoyed it.
2) I now have the time to play an MMO which I didn't have 2 years ago (playing CoH as well which isn't really that caparable to WoW, but enjoying nonetheless)
3) Had friends who play EQ and EQ2 and heard their pros and cons about that game and their comparisons to WoW, UO and others.
4) Have played Starcraft (which I still rate is one of my all time favs) and have played Warcraft(2,3)
5) Thought the WoW was fantastic in beta (obviously need to see about longevity in retail) and has killed time like no other game in sometime.
6) Think Blizzard are a great company with a good rep, but bought it cause I wanted to experience a MMORPG beyond a beta for once.
7) Found the beta easy to get to grips with though I bemoan the standard WoW UI (obviously there are add-ons), cause CoH's built-in UI wees on WoW's from a great height IMO (apart from map ui)

Think 8/10 is harsh, but it's the reviewer's opinion. At the moment I'd give the game a 9/10 and I feel I'm being unkind with that score.

right, well rather than argue which is the fairest MMOG of them all, I shall simply say that that was a pretty damn good review.

/gets coat and leaves

Sk/Exemplar certainly adds a hell of a lot to the ease of getting new players into the game, it's rather handy to pay off debt as well. Not that I ever suffer any. *cough*

An additional thing that CoH does very well is the upgrades to the game through the different issues. PvP arena combat is coming up in the next issue and you can go to where they're going to be and see the construction being done which is a nice touch. It's also realistic as well as there never seems to be more than about half a dozen blokes doing any work...

WoW is probably a great game but I'm burnt out on fantasy gaming, in fact burnt out isn't strong enough, sick to death of it would be more accurate.

Wow, one of the few reviews i have to disagree with on EG. maybe its just because i feel so passionate about the game, but it sounds like you solo'd until level 10 then just couldn't be bothered. by the sounds of it you've been playing three MMORPGS pretty much one after another, so have you really devoted enough time to write a fair review on one of them?

a MMORPG isnt like your standard console game, you dont fork out your £40 in exchange for a fixed amount of content and plot. with WoW you very much get back what you put into it, which is where your two biggest critisms become invalid.

Yes - it is very shallow creating a party just to complete a mission, and then never speaking to them again. but if you're in a guild but have only ever teamed with one other player for any deal of time - thats more your fault than the games, its by no means stopping you doing it other than your probably to lazy to get on a blimp to find them ;)

And your other critism is that the 'quests' can sometimes be misleading. Yes, i've been mislead a few times - but i've started to realise half the time they mislead you into new areas in order to force you to explore, sure i feel stupid when i realise i was just ment to go around the corner. but even if you wander off in the totally wrong direction you'll normally always find something just as entertaining to distract you, and by the time you get back to the 'correct' place you've got some extra EXP which you can't really moan about.

If the quests told you in perfect detail what to do, it'd be about as much fun as playing Final Fantasy with a 'Complete Walkthrough' sitting on your lap at all times.

and finally (i'll stop being nasty soon, i promise!) the warrior isnt based around rage, its usefull for doing the specials but the warriors main strenght is his ability to take obscene amounts of damage before croaking it, compared to poor little Rogue who can dish it out like no man, but can't take it very well.

Easily 9 out of 10, but i suppose MMORPGS are a very personal experiance - i wouldn't recommend it to everybody despite being so fond of it myself.

Guys did you actualy read the last lines? Where he calls it the best mmog?

Come on, people!

Stop comparing the scores to sites/magazines that do honeyglaced reviews only.

Dont get me wrong, i respect the poor chap for having to review a game which is still very much evolving - but seriously, if this is the 'greatest fantasy MMO in existance' yet only merits 8/10, maybe they should of got somebody who enjoys fantasy MMO's to write the review.

i'm just concerned people will jump to the score and think "well, i wont bother with that then" and miss out. The sheer amount of work which has gone into WoW, and the amount of enjoyment people can get out of that if they put the effort in is huge!

Anyone who looks at an 8/10 score, thinks that's a bad score and doesn't read the review needs their brain looking at. I'm not saying people won't do it, just that they shouldn't. And it was a good review, too, even though I probably disagree with it on some matters of opinion.

(I'm actually one of these crazy fools who doesn't think reviews should have scores, but I know I'm a tiny, crazed minority there.)

"i'm just concerned people will jump to the score and think "well, i wont bother with that then" and miss out. The sheer amount of work which has gone into WoW, and the amount of enjoyment people can get out of that if they put the effort in is huge!"

I don't think that will happen. the review is very positive. It's a review on Eurogamer, so people should know better. And people that just do a google search will find gamespot/ign. Everyone I know that was interested (and those were quite a few) already have it, most entered the betas and wouldn't have given a monkey's arse what EG's score would be. Someone said earlier that people buy this because it's blizzard/warcraft and they were right.

Sure the amount of enjoyment you can get out of it is huge. Is that a reason for Kieron to ignore what he thinks are faults? Does that mean it should autmatically get a 9? Of course not. The best mmog according to kieron deserves a 8/10 score and that's fine. People now have a good way of measuring the other mmog reviews he does on here (and I'm sure he will do more) based on it. (hehe, better than Halo turned into better than WoW)

If you want to convince someone to play WoW just show them the game or link to a different review.

Also, saying kieron doesn't like mmog's is a bit ridiculous, he has already reviewed a bunch for EG and seems to enjoy them a lot.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if they did a followup article in a few months.

Nobody can accuse KG of not being honest. Explained precisely the reasons for the 8 in a frank manner. Very good review.

I think the main conern people have had with the game is that the 'social' bit is mainly up to the player to sort out. I played City of Heroes for about 3 months, and you were pretty much forced to team - so the game really did fill up your friends list for you. whether you liked it or not, you were going to meet new people and make new in-game friends.

World of Warcraft allows you to solo pretty much at any level, and so it is possible to go through the game without being the slightest bit social. If you want to be social, it is up to the player to sort all of this out on his own, get involved with a guild, etc.
Of course, the game is far, far more rewarding if you do get involved with the social aspect - if it were not for the Elite Guard, I would most certainly not be enjoying this game as much as I am, and luckily for me I was involved with that guild right from it's birth.
I think this has also made World of Warcraft more enjoyable for me than City of Heroes - I form a party with people because these are people I want to form a party with, not because I have no choice but to form a party.
Only concern I personally have is the bullet-train rate of progress through the game - I know I have been playing it a lot since launch, but I am already level 18, which is nearly a third of the way towards the level cap (as compared to city of heroes, which took a good 2 months to get to level 20). Anyone who has levelled to a higher level able to tell if the rate of levelling slows down at all, or do you carry on steaming ahead?
A note on the review: although I disagree with the score, it was still exellently explained and justified.

Woot, i started a flame by the sounds of it.

I did indeed read the review, despite populour belief - and its not a poor review by any means, but if i strongly disagree with something thats what the comments section is for right? I'm normally always moaning the scores are too high (Halo2, PGR2, etc) so it's nice to be able to vent praise on a game i thinks been underated for once. and yes, 8 is a very good score but my critism is more down to his review comments than the final number which means very little nowadays anyway, and while 8/10 is a pretty good score - when you consider the subscription charge it wont be good enough for some many.

I tend to solo a great deal in MMORPGS, and especially in the first few months of a MMORPG being released the social side really does take a back seat while all the fantatics try to reach lvl 60 first. once everybodys a much higher level, teaming up not only becomes far more important but its also made easier (Mage getting his teleport spells for instance). In order to fairly review a MMORPG you really have to lost yourself in it, and if this poor reviewer has had to play City of Heros, EverQuest II and WoW it either means he's operating on a 90 hour day or playing at low levels.

I feel sorry for the poor chap, as no matter how much time you put into a MMORPG review you'll get people who've played it longer who think they know the game better - but, for me, WoW is probably going to be 'Game of the Year' and most of his critism is very harsh.

On a lighter note, now that they've given WoW 'the best MMO' an 8/10, they are going to have to seriously piss off all the EQII fantatics by giving it a lower score upon review!