Soldier Of Fortune II : Double Helix Comments by Gestalt

"Anyone who can't discuss games in the intellectual or artistic sense is intellectually or creatively illiterate. No other medium suffers this kind of drought. Why should games be exempt?

Very well put Max. People should try to think of them as interactive movies, with your Die Hards and Lawrence of Arabias (although the latter does seem to be lacking)."

My Lawrence of Arabia on PC is Planescape: Torment. No other games with such great amounts of quality dialog and great plotting come to mind. It is sad that most computer games players settle for so little in the areas that really could use some improvement, like plot and dialog. I guess it's because we've been given so little in the past that we dare not ask for more even now. So we're given bumpmaps and reflections and Bad Overlords taking over lands full of cheap cliches. And John Mullins. *shiver*

King Mob! You stole my comment! I was just about to say about one million Americans can't be wrong/flies and shit. Damn, should've woken up earlier.

On to the question of bugs spoiling gameplay, then. It depends on what we look for in games: if we look for action and reflex tests, it's pretty much ok to have unrealistic AI routines for player detection and having them shoot through walls etc. But if we are looking for immersion into this believable other world that we can experience, nothing busts the suspension of disbelief worse than having clipping problems, stupid AI etc. There's no way to get involved in SOF2, other than in the sense of testing my reaction speed against superhuman AI.

So yes, SOF2 is playable (just commenting on the bugs, not on the uninspired design, old ideas, the racist worldview and the completely unneccessary gore effects that have teenagers pissing their pants in excitement) but it does not immerse the player to the game world, due to the fact that the bugs "break the game" and dissipate the illusion of really "being there" moment after moment.

Ah... videogames as art... that old chestnut eh?

Well of course they are- just some are better art than others (just like with books, films, music or any other mainstream artform you care to mention). And a large factor in my deciding whether or not a game is successful as a work of art or not is if it provides anything different, or new. With so many FPS's on the market its hard to see new games coming out that really do provide any significant advancements to the genre that would make them fulfill this. Thats not to say it would be impossible, and I'm not saying that SoF2 offers nothing new- I dont know, I havent played it- its just a general comment. It applies to all genres though and not just the FPS genre.

And bickering about whether problems with the behaviour of the enemies are due to poor AI, clipping or whatever is largely irrelevent - the more important point being made is that there are problems there.

...people that takes videogaming as a form of art...

Nooooo...not that shit here as well!

I didn't play this game and, as I don't play computer games, I don't intend to. So, I won't make comments regarding specific aspects of the game. I'd just like to point out the apparently not so obvious fact that we are all different and our willingness to accept certain aspects (sometimes, they're not even faults) of a game (or whatever) is different.

The discussion I'm really interested in is the one about games being art or not. There are terrible movies that are as far from "art" as certain games. But we don't question the "art" quality of cinema. Why shouldn't we demand it for games? And do good stories, characters, music, voice-acting, etc., hurt a game? Of course not. So, why settle for less?

Ico is art, Rez is art, GTA 3 is art, Silent Hill II is art, Half-Life is art, Halo is art... (I'm only mentioning games I've played). As with every other art form, we can like what we get or not - but we know the effort to create something special was there.

Sorry, Skal... :)

If video games are like art, Soldier of Fortune is definitely a painting of a chimpanzee sitting on the loo reading a newspaper.


Peej

->jaa

Not intended towards you, but Max Diablos have been raving about this on Planetcrap. Frankly, I'm a little tired of it.

The FPS "genre" (I'm perplexed by the fact that we define genres by the viewpoint of the game) has actually a lot of potential.

People just accept the problems inherent in games, so that the developers don't have to confront them. How to fix the character interaction, where you can only "use" or shoot people? How to make sure that the levels are both open in the sense that the player has freedom, and that the story still progresses and the player doesn't get lost?

How to make sure that the world interacts with the player, e.g. that wooden doors will not just stay closed after being blasted by a bazooka, fire would affect objects? Sounds would have to propagate properly, shadows should conceal the player if needed and small crates should not be able to block out a road etc.

Warren Spector is looking to do this in Deus Ex 2, have to hope he succeeds.

But considering the level design of SOF2, it wouldnt matter if the game was called Time Crisis 3 -- there is no difference at all to the on-rails shooter, just that the player also has to walk on the rail by himself. That sucks. There is no interaction between characters, and locked doors, trucks etc. block the way everywhere. It feels stupid, it feels strange to have to "choose the right route" all the time: why am I not able to choose from different ways to infiltrate the hotel etc. Why can't I disguise myself as a guard by stealing a uniform? Why can't I do anything else than run and shoot from the gun that is pointing from my navel all the time?

Warren Spector is looking to do this in Deus Ex 2, have to hope he succeeds

He will. Deus Ex will be the best gaming experience ever created, in my opnion.

The point Viktor made about the world interacting with the player is a good one- you really want to be able to see the effect you have on the world in the game- it adds a lot more to the experience and really allows you to feel like you are more involved- an actual part of that world, rather than a spectator.

If there is a wooden door and you have a bazooka, as Viktor said, you should be able to blow the door off. If there is a real reason, thats vital to the game, that you dont get through the door at this time, then the designers need to make it so there is a believable reason WHY you cant get through it.

We accept and encourage the fact that games are not true-to-life and push the boundries of realism, very often defying the laws of physics, but (IMHO) it still needs to be a reasonably believable fantasy if we are expected to really be drawn into the game world

"He will. Deus Ex will be the best gaming experience ever created, in my opnion"

Hm. Deus Ex, while being a very good game, was a bit overrated, imo, so I just let's try not to fall for the hype trap and let's wait, hope and see.

...people that takes videogaming as a form of art...

Please don't make us all grow Goaties.

Videogames as an artform. Hmmm. I think you can highlight certain games that just get it right. Unreal, for example, for me was stunning to play through. Halo is another.

"If there is a wooden door and you have a bazooka, as Viktor said, you should be able to blow the door off"

That opens up a lot of new challenges for level designers, which is probably why Red Faction didn't really make full use of its GeoMod system in the end.

The annoying thing about doors in SOF2 is that you have a tool which can pick locks, but it only works on a handful of doors, and there's no way to tell which the developers have graciously let you open with it unless you walk right up to them and look to see if a tool icon appears. It's a bit of a cop-out to give you that tool and then not let you use it most of the time.

The only level where you could open most of the doors was on the ship, where you can get into most of the cabins using the tool. It was a nice touch, and there was even a nice easter egg to find in one of the rooms. Why couldn't they have done that on some of the other levels, or at least given a reasonable explanation as to why you can't use it on other doors?

As it is the tool is essentially pointless - it's just a key substitute that opens maybe one or two mission-critical doors on each level on average, and is otherwise useless. You might as well just make it a blue key card and have it sat on a desk waiting for you.

I certainly can't believe what I'm reading. SOF2 is a linear shooter, that's it, it's not the kind of game where you must think a lot, you just shoot, avoid fire and go on, that's it. People that bought the game know this, they didn't expected Deus Ex 2 or anything, just an action game, and they got a very good one. Certainly, expect Doom 3 to be the same.

Some of you are really funny, instead of talking crap of this game you should stick to your games where you feel in another world (to avoid the real one?), and let people that uses videogaming just for entertainment enjoy the game, cause they will. You don't open all the doors and you don't have a Shakespeare story, just A LOT of fun. Me, like many other people, have a life to take care of and I don't want complex games, I play games to relax and have a little fun. And this game was made for people with a life.

This is my last comment in this site, but I don't wanna go without giving many of you a little piece of advice: GET OUT MORE. Real life is much more beautiful that anything you can see in a monitor.

and they got a very good one

Which is more than can be said of your last post.

This is my last comment in this site

Good.

Trunks has missed the point a bit...

The point in a submersive and believable game is not to avoid the real world at all- it just means the experience of the game will be better, therefore making it more entertaining.

And if people didnt discuss things that could make games better, and criticise any other games then how do you expect games to continue to get better?

Is it me, or do you also think the guys who tell you to "get a life" are actually those who have no life?

The complete line to "get a life" is "Get a life, and can you pick one up for me whilst you're there"

"Get a life, and can you pick one up for me whilst you're there"
And we're running out of milk and bread too...

.......and Jaffa cakes.

Get some fizzy cola bottles as well.

Proper fizzy cola bottles mind, not the lame ones.

Moondust if you can find it, Wonka bars don't count.

Krrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrshhhhh

(one for the older readers there)

but the signelplayer part is quite entertaining too

I must have missed this bit. Do you get to operate train signals, or is it a section where you have to communicate using lanterns ?

I thought moondust was banned? Thats the stuff that fizzes and cracks on your tongue?

;-) Thats the stuff.

You can get the same sorta stuff in Wonka chocolate bars now.

You can still buy it by itself as well - in places like woolworths.

Moondust - superb - ever try emptying a packet of that into a bottle of Corona Fizz? I believe Moondust has been banned as a WMD (Weapon of Mass Destruction).

ever try emptying a packet of that into a bottle of Corona Fizz?

Crazy. Just crazy.

(drags it back onto topic before the *Zap*)

So you could use Moondust+coke combo's in a FPS. See, we've just advanced the genre further than most have managed recently.

*cough*

Jaffa Cake bait to tempt the AI outta hiding.

The possibilites are endless.

Marmine Toast planted in the kitchens to kill off easily fooled Nutella loving grunts.

ever try emptying a packet of that into a bottle of Corona Fizz?

Crazy. Just crazy.

Refreshers had much the same effect.

Anyone remember the holographic projection device from Duke Nukem ?

I suggest a slight modification: the projection would be of Isla Fisher. This could be used to lure AI guards to an untimely death.

But it would only work in certain situations; as Isla is only 5ft and they may not notice her.

A sweet thread... cool. My vote would have to go to what I can only describe as sugared tongues. The thin red strips (not laces) coated in sugar. As I recall, enough could set you mouth on fire and make eating, breath, drinking etc a painful experience. Wonderful!

It maybe available as "Moondust" now (I've not seen it) but back in the seventies it was called "Space Dust".

100% non-natural goodness in a packet.

Isla is only 5ft and they may not notice her

I like them petite.

"Certainly, expect Doom 3 to be the same."

No, I won't expect it to be the same, and no, it won't be the same. When I interviewed Warren Spector for about two hours (he wore out two of my notepads!) at the E3, he specifically pointed out that according to his discussions with Carmack, the stuff ID is working on is trying to make a new FPS that doesn't stick to the stereotypes and conventions of the genre. That means using the horror elements, light, sound and shadows to create an athmosphere, and also having less action and more fear.

This probably means that in the best of all worlds, Doom 3 and Deus Ex 2 would be equals in advancing a "genre" when compared to the first FPS's that are true gameplay classics: Doom and Ultima Underworld, the first one by Carmack and the second one by Spector. Let's hope for the best.

"You don't open all the doors and you don't have a Shakespeare story, just A LOT of fun."

I had "A LOT of fun" playing Halo, because it is a great, consistent and intriguing game, where the point is to have a lot of action. It doesn't have a Shakespeare story, but it gives the player ample possibilities to act the scenes in the way he desires, as opposed to SOF2, where you are just a puppet of the designers.

And who truly has "A LOT of fun" with such a faschist, violent gore-fest as SOF2? Even though its also a bad game, the horrible right-wind ideology oozing from everywhere in the game and the overblown splatter and amputation effects should be enough to turn away anyone with a human heart. In any other media such thoughtless and careless violence, portrayed without consequences, thoughts or humanity, would be dismissed as sensationalist, low-brow White Trash faschist-entertainment and as lazy workmanship. The violence is boring, not shocking, and in the end it just looks ugly and bad, and makes me worry about the people who enjoy it.

"the stuff ID is working on is trying to make a new FPS that doesn't stick to the stereotypes and conventions of the genre"

It's not really an FPS at all by the sounds of things (except in the loosest sense, ie it's first person and you can shoot stuff), and it seems a bit daft to call it Doom. Doom (to me) means gunning down hordes of demons. Doom III is starting to look more like Resident Evil in real-time.

The only connection between the two is the storyline and setting, but then every id game has the same story - scientists bungle an experiment, opening a portal to hell / other dimensions, and lots of evil monsters and zombies pour through the hole. Somehow you're the only one to survive, and armed only with a pistol / shotgun you must take on the entire enemy army and save the world. At least they came up with a new story for Quake II, even if they did steal it from Starship Troopers. :)

Oh, and I'd hardly call Ultima Underworld a first person shooter. Again, yes, it's first person, and yes you can shoot stuff, but it's a role-playing game, not a shooter.

"And who truly has "A LOT of fun" with such a faschist, violent gore-fest as SOF2? Even though its also a bad game, the horrible right-wind ideology oozing from everywhere in the game and the overblown splatter and amputation effects should be enough to turn away anyone with a human heart. In any other media such thoughtless and careless violence, portrayed without consequences, thoughts or humanity, would be dismissed as sensationalist, low-brow White Trash faschist-entertainment and as lazy workmanship. The violence is boring, not shocking, and in the end it just looks ugly and bad, and makes me worry about the people who enjoy it."

Viktor, you are absolutely right here. I haven't played SoF2 yet, but knowing SoF and having read a few reviews of SoF2, I think I can agree. However, I must admit that I tend to apply different standards when it comes to video games, too. While I would hardly read a book or watch a movie spreading the same ideology as SoF, I am pretty sure I would have fun playing the game (though I REALLY wouldn't enjoy the extreme gore level). I don't know why this is, honestly. It's the same, though on a less ideological level, with fantasy, I have read hardly anything except the obvious LotR and Harry Potter in the fantasy field, but I thoroughly enjoy a good fantasy RPG from time to time. Maybe it's because when you apply the same standards to video games as to books/movies etc., you couldn't play anything at all. Me, at least, I haven't seen games yet that come close to, let's say, Kafka for instance.
Some games are exceptions, like System Shock, Ico etc.
But that will lead to the tiring "games as art" discussion again...

I haven't seen games yet that come close to, let's say, Kafka for instance.

I think there are a lot of games like Kafka. Games where you don't quite understand what is going on and you seem to have no control whatsoever (be it over your character, the camera or the events).

Doom (to me) means gunning down hordes of demons. Doom III is starting to look more like Resident Evil in real-time.

I see this a lot. People tend to slag off the new Doom game just because they are intrenched in their old perception of Doom (not saying Gestalt is). Can't people be a little more dynamic? That was then, one can't possibly compare that to games today.

I'm all for id trying something different after spending the last decade essentially making the same game over and over again, but it's not Doom. Sorry, but Doom is what got me involved in the mod community and into gaming journalism, so I feel a bit proprietorial about it. :) Imagine how you would feel if George Lucas went away and turned Star Wars Episode III into a claustrophobic haunted house movie.

Imagine how you would feel if George Lucas went away and turned Star Wars Episode III into a claustrophobic haunted house movie.

As long as it's an improvement from Episodde 2, I'm all for it.

Virtually anything would improve on Episode II.

*runs for cover*

"but it's not Doom"

Isn't that a bit early to say that? I mean, all we (or at least me) have seen are a few minutes of gameplay, and Doom 1+2 had a lot of corridors too, hadn't they? I might add that from what I've seen, the atmosphere clearly reminds me of the original Doom. It has the same disturbing mood.

Virtually anything would improve on Episode II. /i>

pah, kids today. Clearly not old skool SW fans ;)

"runs for cover"

You can run, but you can't hide. :p Seriously though, I thought Episode II was pretty cool. There were a couple of cringe-worthy love scenes (the soft and smooth one, and the one with the leather corset - yes, you know the one) and some of C3PO's falling apart jokes were pretty lame (though they made my parents laugh), but overall it was back to the sense of adventure of the original trilogy, and certainly a vast improvement over Episode I. Not that that's saying much. ;)

I think there are a lot of games like Kafka. Games where you don't quite understand what is going on and you seem to have no control whatsoever (be it over your character, the camera or the events).

lol! That sounds pretty much like every game I play! But I think that's just me...

pah, kids today. Clearly not old skool SW fans ;)

I am, and it didn't stop me from liking Episode 1.