Soldier Of Fortune II : Double Helix Review

By Gestalt Published 17 June, 2002

Review - Raven's gory shooter sequel is a game of two halves

Version tested: PC

Blood And Guts

'Soldier Of Fortune II : Double Helix' Screenshot 01b

Gestalt goes all John Woo in Hong Kong

Scoring top marks for topicality, Soldier Of Fortune II sees the world being threatened by the menace of a terrorist group armed with lethal biological agents. Naturally it's up to you, occupying the jack boots of all-American gun fetishist and mustachioed mercenary John Mullins, to put an end to this.

What ensues is a finely honed mixture of run-and-gun action and more stealth-oriented missions, with a variety of real world weaponry to play with and Raven's appropriately named GHOUL animation system to provide the gut-wrenching gore quotient. Arms, legs and heads can be shot clean off, leaving almost unrecognisable mangled remains, while blood stains, bullet holes and gaping wounds appear on injured enemies. The faint of heart will be glad to hear they can tone down the gore or switch it off entirely from the options menu.

Your armaments vary from a simple combat knife, useful for those close quarters silent kills, through assault rifles and shotguns and on up to incendiary grenades and a bazooka. In the last couple of missions you even have access to the latest state-of-the-art infantry weapon, the OICW, a prime example of American military technology in that it's so complex as to be almost completely unusable in most combat situations. Featuring all mod cons - machinegun, sniper scope, grenade launcher, range finder, friend-or-foe target identifier, fluffy dice - it costs a small fortune, requires the use of at least half a dozen buttons, and is consistently out-performed in action by an untrained Columbian rebel with a second hand AK-74 assault rifle.

Superhuman

'Soldier Of Fortune II : Double Helix' Screenshot 02b

Gibs in the jungle

Which brings us to the game's single biggest flaw - the AI. Put simply, every scruffy looking rebel soldier you come up against is in fact Superman wearing a really cunning disguise. He can see through walls (and will sometimes attempt to fire through them, with often hilarious results), poke arms and legs through solid objects, and consistently land a grenade at your feet from fifty feet away, over a hill, without being able to see you.

Smoke grenades and thick foliage are no obstacle for these digital über-mensch either, and in open terrain it's almost impossible to sneak up on them. The only way to evade their attentions is to go "prone" and crawl along the ground, at which point they will quite happily stand on your head without seeing you in thick grass. But as you can't fire your weapon whilst lying down (not even guns that are specifically designed to be fired from this position) it's not much of a solution, and the second you pop your head up you'll be spotted and shot with near perfect accuracy. Needless to say this makes trying to use the OICW's complex targeting systems and viewfinder (which only function when you stand perfectly still for some reason, and forget your zoom settings every time you move) utterly futile.

It also makes the game's handful of stealth-based missions particularly irritating, especially as guards can raise the alarm telepathically without having to go anywhere near a big red button. Once the siren has been set off there's no way to turn it off again, and at least one mission is failed instantly if the alarm gets activated. While this would be fair enough under most circumstances, it's pretty annoying when you have to restart a mission because a guard somehow saw you through a pile of cardboard boxes. On the bright side, the AI does do a good job of working together as a team to root you out from under cover, circling round to get a clean shot or running away to fetch reinforcements, and the sight of guards vaulting over a railing to reach you or kneeling behind cover as you open fire is common.

On Location

'Soldier Of Fortune II : Double Helix' Screenshot 03b

One of the more intricate maps. If only they all looked this good.

The shortcomings of the AI aren't enough to spoil the single player campaign completely, however hard Raven's programmers may have tried. It's hard not to enjoy yourself sometimes as you run through a jungle, ducking behind a ruined wall, peering around a tree trunk to let off a few rounds and catching an enemy guard full in the face, watching as he slumps to the ground realistically. Until you get blown to pieces by a grenade, anyway.

Sadly the level design is something of a mixed bag as well though, with settings ranging from the streets of Prague and Hong Kong to the crate-festooned interior of a cargo ship. Some areas are imaginative and beautifully rendered, while others are lacking in detail, shrouded in thick fog, or over-ambitious sprawling locations that bring your graphics card to its knees. Most levels are also incredibly linear, with a combination of locked doors, bullet-proof windows and shoddy scripting keeping you on the straight and narrow. Mullins does carry a tool which acts as a lockpick, but as you can only use it on a handful of doors and chests throughout the course of the game it's pretty pointless in practice.

Some levels remove any illusion of free will by clamping you to a fast moving vehicle and giving you a fixed machinegun to fire. These on-rails missions are frankly awful, marred by pathetic featureless level design and angular roads that look like something out of the proverbial "my first Quake map". Your escape from Prague on the back of a truck is especially poor, with the vehicle making wild unrealistic changes in direction as you sit helplessly attached to your machinegun. Lorries loaded with enemy soldiers periodically veer on to the road in front of or behind you, and then fly high into the air as they explode, your own truck passing through the flaming wreckage as if it wasn't there.

How The Other Half Live

'Soldier Of Fortune II : Double Helix' Screenshot 04b

We're going in!

Luckily there's more to Soldier Of Fortune II than the up-and-down single player campaign. For starters you have access to a random mission generator, and although this is only capable of creating fog-ridden outdoors maps, it does add longevity. There's a choice of four terrain types, and missions can involve planting explosives, killing a particular enemy, escaping to an extraction point or stealing documents.

Where the random map generator (and the game itself, for that matter) really shines is in multiplayer. Here you won't have to worry about enemies with pixel perfect aim and X-ray vision (until somebody creates an auto-aim bot, anyway), and capture the flag games are a joy to behold, with up to 32 players on each side battling back and forth over a vast map created spontaneously at the beginning of each match. Occasionally you end up with a map which is too open (leaving your base difficult to defend) or too constricted (with everybody funnelled through one or two central choke points), but usually the result is highly enjoyable anyway.

The free-for-all and team deathmatch modes tend to be fast and furious, especially on crowded servers, and although some people may enjoy this, I found the whole thing pretty chaotic. Infiltration is more interesting though, offering a Counter-Strike style round-based game in which one team must capture a briefcase full of documents and return it to their helicopter. The maps aren't all suited to large numbers of players, but there's enough variety here to keep you entertained, from the jungles of Columbia to a recreation of Raven's offices in snow-covered Wisconsin. On some maps it's hard to get the documents to the extraction point in one piece, which tends to reduce the game to a bout of "last man standing" (an option which is also included, as Elimination mode), but overall it's a lot of fun.

Conclusion

Soldier Of Fortune II is effectively two games in one box. The first is a fairly entertaining but deeply flawed single player campaign, the other a multiplayer shooter with a huge variety of maps (pre-designed and randomly generated) and at least two great gameplay modes (capture the flag and infiltration) to keep you occupied. If you're after some online mayhem, then it's well worth buying. If you want single player action, you'd be better off looking elsewhere.

Single Player Rating - 6/10 Multiplayer Rating - 9/10

6 / 10

9 / 10

Read the Eurogamer.net scoring policy
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Comments (122) Latest comment 10 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Errol #1 10 years ago

    This review made me laugh a lot ! Here are the most amusing bits:

    ...'The only way to evade their attentions is to go "prone" and crawl along the ground, at which point they will quite happily stand on your head without seeing you in thick grass'...

    ...'you can't fire your weapon whilst lying down'...

    ...'guards can raise the alarm telepathically'...

    Frankly, if RAVEN can't make better AI than this, then they should pack up shop and go and be street sweepers or something. Its a sad joke - and a very expensive one at that.


    (AsensiblepostbyErrol TM)

    Edited by 10 at 17/06/02 @ 12:28

  • Whizzo #2 10 years ago

    If you want single player action, you'd be better off looking elsewhere.
    I bought this mainly on the basis of playing it MP but thought I'd go through the SP first to get used to the weapons and everything. I wasn't enjoying the singleplayer at all and when that truck level appeared I just couldn't take it anymore. SOF2, thankfully, was bought from EB and that's where it's gone back to. I really liked SOF1 and it's a hell of a lot better in SP than this one, maybe I'll rebuy it when the price comes down for MP action but 30 notes for possibly the crappiest SP FPS I've played for many years is too much.

  • terminalterror #3 10 years ago

    Why is it that so many videogaming companies refuse to attempt to push the state of the art? Soldier of Fortune 2 is yet another in the list of pointless fps games churned out by Raven et. al. in the past year.


    Because unfortunately, that is what the gullible public buys, and they make money out of churning out FPS after FPS

  • Blerk #4 10 years ago

    that is what the gullible public buys, and they make money out of churning out FPS after FPS

    ...and sadly this appears to be the way that console games are going too. Despite the fact that FPS games suck big-time with a joypad. :-(

  • Errol #5 10 years ago

    people are so attached to the "have a gun sticking from your navel and run around shooting people with it"

    LOL - never thought of it like that !

  • roodevleck #6 10 years ago

    "The shortcomings of the AI aren't enough to spoil the single player campaign completely, however hard Raven's programmers may have tried."

    Ouch! I hope I'll never get a review like this one |-)

  • bionutz #7 10 years ago

    Goldeneye was saved because it was a great game... but the control with the gamepad sucked bigtime! It was the only fps I played on a console, with a gamepad (till now ;)).
    I'm playing sof2 right now. I tried to play on normal, but the enemies were too shrewd... so I play now on the first level below normal (shame, shame, shame!). It's harder to play then sof1... and sometimes brings my nice xp1700/gf4 4600 down to its knees. Not talking about a stupid bug that sometimes damages the quicksave (hapenned two times). The loading time (first load) may take minutes (and my hdd is 7200rot/min). There are a lot of scripting bugs (entity trying to use itself, not hearing the gun firing, can't get out of the zoom from the sniper); also the AI can be anticipated at one point, although they're very very cunning. They were all coming towards me, round a corner, and I was shooting them one by one, in exactly the same place. I borrowed the game from a friend... I wouldn't pay for it, but without spending money it's fun in some parts... in the wait for NOLF2 and DeusEx2...

  • reto #8 10 years ago

    Edited 10 times. Most recently by Errol at 11:28 on 17/06/2002

    Ten Edits! What was wrong with it?

  • DocX #9 10 years ago

    "Edited 10 times. Most recently by Errol at 11:28 on 17/06/2002
    Ten Edits! What was wrong with it?"

    The answer is at the bottom of his post:(AsensiblepostbyErrol TM)
    Obviously took a lot of effort!

  • pjmaybe #10 10 years ago

    Never understood the appeal of this game, aside from being able to bop people in the head/arms/legs...Can't understand how Raven supposedly copyrighted that idea when Virtua Cop was doing it nearly 10 years ago!

    Peej

  • Errol #11 10 years ago

    I was only able to complete my sensible post because the Doctor gave me a new tablet prescription today.

    The new pills help quite a lot.

  • Merefield #12 10 years ago

    "Why is it that so many videogaming companies refuse to attempt to push the state of the art? Soldier of Fortune 2 is yet another in the list of pointless fps games churned out by Raven et. al. in the past year.

    Luckily I can play Deus Ex, Halo and Operation Flashpoint." - Viktor

    Agree with you 110%, well said that man!

  • fernandoweb #13 10 years ago

    I still don't know how you can write a serious review of any "Soldier of Fortune" game without reference to the appalling morality behind the games themselves. I'm not talking about anything to do with violence in a kind of comic book GTA3 way - I've no problem with that - but the SOF series is based on the ethos of one of the most racist, right wing magazines to be ever published in the US. The developers acknowledge the racism in the game, but then argued it was OK because, hey, it's what people want.

    Thankfully Edge (and oddly the Official PS2 magazine) have picked up on it, and I'm not saying the game should be banned or anything because of it, but it surely at least merits a mention if only to inform people. As a letter published in Edge mentioned a few months ago, were the likes of SOF to be a movie and not a game, it'd be dismissed straightaway as a piece of nasty, xenophobic and most importantly lazy media - but instead because it's a game, it somehow makes it more acceptable, which is bad news for the industry if it's hoping to bring more people into its forray.

  • Super Stu #14 10 years ago

    Frankly this is the most negative review of sof2 I've seen

    Heaven forbid the reviewers here have their own opinion on games.

  • Errol #15 10 years ago

    several minor map bugs

    LOL. Do you work for Raven ?
    Edited by 1 at 17/06/02 @ 17:25

  • Gestalt #16 10 years ago

    "They can lob back your grenades at you"

    Woopy-doo. :) I did say in that section of the review that "the AI does a good job of working together as a team" and go on about the same kind of stuff you're talking about. The problem is that while the AI might have some neat tricks, overall it's deeply flawed.

    AI shouldn't be able to see through walls and floors, and even if it can it certainly shouldn't try shooting you through them! It also shouldn't be able to land a grenade at your feet perfectly every time it throws one, even when they have no direct line of sight to you. And this was on one of the lower difficulty settings! God knows what their accuracy is like on the harder settings.


    "Can't fire while prone and you call that an AI problem?"

    I didn't, did I?


    "It was developed by H&K"

    My mistake. I assume it was designed to the US Military's requirements though? Whoever made it though, it's an over-engineered mess in this game. :)

  • skalmanxl #17 10 years ago

    SoF was one of the most worthless and pathetic games of later years. Honestly, after trying out the two demos, I don't have much hope for this one.

  • Max Diablos #18 10 years ago

    I predicted SOF2 would be a polished turd and from the majority of forum comments I've seen elsewhere it looks like I'm right again. Overall the review seems fair given the misgivings I've seen expressed.

    Why do people continue to buy garbage? I think the answer can be found in an earlier posters comments about positive reviews. The majority of the gaming media have sold out and know that too much scrutiny would cause a collapse of confidence in the genre's they lazily rely on to sell copy.

    Many people, regardless of their apparant intelligence, all too easily fall for marketing spin even when historically the reality has shown it's most likely to be otherwise. A similar example is believing the Tories are now the "caring party." Examine the policies. They haven't changed one bit. They're still the same. It's only the gloss that's changed.
    Edited by 2 at 17/06/02 @ 19:51

  • Gestalt #19 10 years ago

    "The AI in this game uses hearing and sight to target the player. Turning auto-run off helps a lot in preventing the enemy from hearing you"

    That doesn't explain the AI seeing me through a big pile of cardboard boxes from half way across a warehouse, while I was crouched down and not moving at all. It also doesn't justify the AI consistently hitting me with a grenade from the other side of a hill without even seeing me, simply by listening for the sound of my footsteps through the grass. They have super-human senses and aim.


    "sound alarms if you fail to hide the corpse"

    Does this actually happen? Because corpses just vanish after a minute or two anyway from what I've seen. The only body I ever had to move was when you had to carry someone out of a burning building in one of the missions.


    "As far as the clipping through walls (enemies shoot through walls)"

    Perhaps that bit wasn't worded clearly, but what I meant is that sometimes enemies will see you through a solid wall or floor and try to shoot you through it as if it wasn't there. Usually you just hear them pumping rounds into a lump of wood, but occasionally they try to throw a grenade through the obstacle and it bounces back in their faces and kills them. Only happened a couple of times to me, but it looked (or rather sounded) really silly.

    The clipping is a seperate issue, and it is a lot worse in SOF2 than any other FPS I've played. Often you'll see bits of arms and legs sticking through walls and doors, and although they can't shoot you when this happens, you can shoot them and kill them through the wall, because their bounding box extends into the room you're in even though their head is in another room. Again, it looks dumb and it's an obvious problem that should have been picked up in beta testing.


    "The 'can't fire your weapon whilst lying down'and raise alarms telepathically" bits are not AI related at all"

    I didn't say they are. Again, sorry if that wasn't worded entirely clearly. The problem with the alarms is that it's easy to get spotted because of the guards' X-ray vision and super-human hearing, and as there's no way to stop them from raising the alarm once they've spotted you it's pretty annoying. It's not an AI problem as such, but the AI makes it more annoying than it should be.

  • King Mob #20 10 years ago

    "It sounds to me like the game is too hard for you. It frankly isn't a game for amateur FPS, and is difficult even for an experienced FPS player. Which to me is a damn good thing. I personally like the challenge."

    I don't know about him, but I don't consider myself as an amateur fps player. I like my challenges as in Halo's legendary difficulty or Alien vs Predator's marine levels on director's cut (and before the patch that enabled game saving). And SoF2 sux like an Electrolux. It would've been great two years ago, but now.. pfft. Goodbye John Mullins, I'll settle for my Ghost Recon.

  • bionutz #21 10 years ago

    I find myself really troubled by the precision the enemies have when throwing grenades at you - it isn't normal indeed. And the clipping is very obvious and annoying almost all the time (they shoot from behind the door, but you still can see the fire from the shooting).
    I kinda like the single player... and that's the only thing I'm playing the game for. Leaving aside the super-american-hero crap, obviously...

  • Trunks #22 10 years ago

    I think the game is far from perfect and there are MANY bugs on it, but I enjoyed it much more than RTCW, the most overrated game nowadays to me. This one adds NOTHING to the genre, at least in SOF2 you have realistic recoil and a pretty challenging AI, no matter if it cheats or not, it got me interested in playing the game. I really got tired of enemies that put themselves in front of me to kill them, and I didn't care of the flaws of this game when I got in the firefights in it. At last a semi-realistic shooter with closer-to-real opponents. If the bugs are fixed in a patch, surely this game will set a new AI benchmark.

  • Viktor #23 10 years ago

    Well, games and movies are not only entertainment, but also art. In art, there can be criteria by which we can assess the worth of a work, and also if it somehow advances the genre/medium, and if it tells us something about the human condition etc.

    By those criteria, SOF2 simply is crap. It fails to deliver a convincing experience, it is a moral dwarf, it has no substance whatsover and no story to speak of. The dialogue is nearly as bad as in Episode2, and the cohesion of the plot and the structure/pacing of the levels is completely off. It just doesn't work as art.

    Maybe as entertainment, for masochists.

  • [Alt][F4] #24 10 years ago

    Totally agree with single player rating.
    To sumarize it in one word => uninspired.

  • [Alt][F4] #25 10 years ago

    you don't play fps much, do you ?
    ooh well, at least there is someone who likes it.

  • Errol #26 10 years ago

    Mattais - Are you quite sure that you're talking about the same game ?

  • UncleLou #27 10 years ago

    I find it utterly frustrating that the games look and sound better and better, but hardly any company cares about the A.I. The best A.I. in an FPS still was in Half-Life, a game that is now 4 (?) years old. I haven't played Halo, though.
    I am still waiting for a game where you have real long fights with individual opponents. Ducking behind a crate, A.I. trying to sneak around you, etc. etc. Comes to my mind that Operation Flashpoint had brilliant A.I., at least in some situations.

  • Errol #28 10 years ago

    I am still waiting for a game where you have real long fights with individual opponents. Ducking behind a crate, A.I. trying to sneak around you, etc. etc.

    Just play Counter-Strike - you get situations like the one you describe in every round.

  • UncleLou #29 10 years ago

    Hm, I actually played Counterstrike for quite some time (lost a bit interest a few months ago)
    , but I am nevertheless waiting for a good single-player-experience with AT LEAST Half-Life A.I. or better.

  • Errol #30 10 years ago

    By all accounts, Unreal Tournament 2003 may well give you the single player experience that you seek.

  • Gestalt #31 10 years ago

    "the truck mission (sitting on the back while the Dr. Ivanovich is driving the car). I haven't seen this type of missions before and was amazed"

    You need to play more games. ;) On-rails levels like that are hardly new, and they've been done much better in other games. The biggest problems for me with that truck level were - 1) the handling of the vehicles was absolutely laughable, which ruined any sense of immersion and made it harder to aim your machinegun, and 2) the level design was pitiful as well, with tons of fogging, sparse scenery and ridiculous looking angular roads. I didn't particularly enjoy the gameplay on those levels either, and felt they didn't fit in with the rest of the game, but that's debatable depending on your personal tastes.


    "this game is graphically intensive, thus leading to slower performance. It's not a bug."

    No, it's not a bug, it's just poor design. Most of the levels ran fine at 800x600 on my GeForce 2, but there were a couple of maps (the Vergara mansion was probably the worst) where the frame rate dropped into single digits at some points. My best guess (as a former level designer myself) is that whoever made those maps was simply over-ambitious, and created a lay-out which was too open and didn't have enough occluding walls to split it up into more manageable areas that the graphics engine could handle.

    Either way it's silly when most of the game runs perfectly well and then there's a handful of maps which are unplayably slow without turning down the graphics options. Developers often have fixed poly counts that they try to stick to, precisely to avoid this kind of thing happening. Either those maps went way over the limit that everyone else stuck to, or there's some other flaw causing the slowdowns, like too many AI characters running around at once or something.
    Edited by 1 at 18/06/02 @ 11:48

  • Errol #32 10 years ago

    You tell him, Gestalt.

    As I see it, Eurogamer is one of the few sites to do an honest (and correct) review of this title.

  • Nemesis #33 10 years ago



    You got something on yer nose there Errol.

  • Errol #34 10 years ago

    Yes - its called the truth.

  • Nemesis #35 10 years ago

    You're got the truth on the end of your nose????

  • Errol #36 10 years ago

    Yes - I find that to be a most agreeable and convenient place to keep it.

  • Nemesis #37 10 years ago

    okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

  • pjmaybe #38 10 years ago

    People who constantly harp on about one FPS or another must have such fascinating lives. Christ, what's the difference between this, Quake, Unreal, Wolfenstein et al....bugger all that's what. They don't even pretend to try and invent a plot or a storyline, the whole game revolves around finding the biggest weapon and pulping everyone in sight with it, and to be honest if you are STILL playing FPS's some 7 or so years on, you need your lobotomy scar stitches unpicking and re-sewing a bit tighter...

    Peej

  • Super Stu #39 10 years ago

    Peej:

    Best tag something like "IMHO" on the end of shite like that :)

  • spiny #40 10 years ago

    Spot on review Gestalt. My2p:

    AI, sigh. I've seen enemies standing against the wall during a firefight. Presumably sniffing the wallpaper.

    Some of the dialoge scripting is terrible.

    It's pretty, but large textures good game do not make.

    Clipping. Sigh. I shot a tango sho died stuck through a door. Went to open the door, & instead picked the body up, in the process poking my own head right through the door.

    It does nothing to advance the genre apart from it's use of GHOUL2 (which is in JK2 anyway).

    Although spraying triads in Hong Kong with dual uzis is quite fun, it dosen't have that 'just one more go' factor.

    Unlike Ghost Recon which has kept me up till 1am 2 nights this week....ZZZZzzzzz

  • spiny #41 10 years ago

    PS: Multi player is fun, but when you can get Urban Terror / Navy Seals for free it dosen't really justify the game price.

  • Nemesis #42 10 years ago

    One suspects Romero would.

    I think there are limits on how FPS can move on, if anything it's splintering into sub-genre's now.

    Personally I've nothing against SOF2, I've always had a great deal of time for the Raven stuff. I played the MP demo, which was ok, the SP demo was OK once you hacked the gore, but to be honest there's nothing new that attracts me to it. The GHOUL system is very nice, I got a real kick out of it, but nothing like the shock factor the first time around.

    And grass, sorry, "realistic" grass, have a word. If I wanted realistic grass I'd go sit in a fecking field. j/k

    That's not to say, however, it's necessarily a bad game. I've purchased games based on recommendation even when I didn't rate the demo overly. Like I've said on other threads, don't necessarily judge a game just by it's negative aspects, no game is perfect. Just ask if you've gonna enjoy it, if so go for it.

    IMO.

  • pjmaybe #43 10 years ago

    Oh, sorry, IMHO - I thought this was all about opinions!

    Peej

  • Max Diablos #44 10 years ago

    Viktor is on the ball about gameplay and art.

  • Trunks #45 10 years ago

    Hmm, let's see: every site that has reviewed this game has scored it between "good" and "outstanding", except this site. What it does mean? Means that the reviewers in the rest of the sites have become nuts scoring so high such a bad game? NO. Means that this game offers some things that refresh the FPS genre, without making a revolution of course, but that makes the normal player keep interest in playing the game. To realize this is just needed one thing that I haven't seen too much in the comments: COMMON SENSE.

    I can't take seriously people that haven't played the game and say that it's crap, or people that takes videogaming as a form of art (I had a good laugh with this one). Come on! What do you want from SOF2? It offered ACTION, nothing more, and it gives lots of pretty cool action. It has bugs, but the reviewer makes the game appear as unplayable, when it really is very fun and the bugs don't spoil the game that much.

  • Max Diablos #46 10 years ago

    Hmm, let's see: every site that has reviewed this game has scored it between "good" and "outstanding", except this site. What it does mean?

    It means Eurogamer take a more careful look at what's there rather than allowing themselves to be sucked in by hype. In reality most games are crap in technical, gameplay, or creative terms.

    ...people that takes videogaming as a form of art...

    Anyone who can't discuss games in the intellectual or artistic sense is intellectually or creatively illiterate. No other medium suffers this kind of drought. Why should games be exempt?

  • FWB #47 10 years ago

    Anyone who can't discuss games in the intellectual or artistic sense is intellectually or creatively illiterate. No other medium suffers this kind of drought. Why should games be exempt?

    Very well put Max. People should try to think of them as interactive movies, with your Die Hards and Lawrence of Arabias (although the latter does seem to be lacking).

    Everything looks like crap if you disect it.

    Fair point, and perhaps more effort (not focus) should be placed on the positive. I do still like reviewers to nitpick. That way you are aware of the problems, however small, and decide for yourself if they'll really bother you.
    Edited by 1 at 19/06/02 @ 00:22

  • Gestalt #48 10 years ago

    "Once they put a patch as I'm sure they will it will be even better"

    a) Why couldn't they get it right first time, and b) we have to review a game based on what comes out of the box or, at a stretch, the latest version available at the time of going to press. We can't sit around forever waiting for a game to be patched into its ideal state, and we can't judge a game based on what it *could* be after a few patches.

  • FWB #49 10 years ago

    We can't sit around forever waiting for a game to be patched into its ideal state, and we can't judge a game based on what it *could* be after a few patches.

    More focus should be placed on reviewing out-of-the-box versions in the industry. Maybe then developers and publishers will concentrate on weeding out bugs from the initial release.




  • King Mob #50 10 years ago

    "Your post about film and games is hilarious. It's a First Person Shooter, not Fellini for crying out loud. Personally, I wasn't expecting Shakespeare when I bought this game. I was expecting a fun, action packed war game, and that's exactly what I got. I think some of you people haven't even played the game, hence you should keep your mouths shut. Some of you are just taking the word of some guy that thinks design bugs are AI bugs. The bugs aren't even that much of a distraction and hardly affect game play at all unless you are running into that AMD FPS problem (sounds like Gestalt is), which they are fixing in the patch. It's the number one selling game in a lot of countries now, and only a handful of people and even less reviewers are complaining, so it's obviously not the piece of shit that this site is making it out to be"

    Well, if we start talking about movies and games: SoF2 is not the Terminator or even Eraser of games. It's the damn Red Heat. Or more accurately, Texas Chainsaw Massacre the New Generation of games. It's uninspired, relies on the same old gore effect, doesn't look that hot etc etc. And saying that sooo many people like this, well, you know the saying about shit and flies. Hype lives!

  • King Mob #51 10 years ago

    "Anyone who can't discuss games in the intellectual or artistic sense is intellectually or creatively illiterate. No other medium suffers this kind of drought. Why should games be exempt?

    Very well put Max. People should try to think of them as interactive movies, with your Die Hards and Lawrence of Arabias (although the latter does seem to be lacking)."

    My Lawrence of Arabia on PC is Planescape: Torment. No other games with such great amounts of quality dialog and great plotting come to mind. It is sad that most computer games players settle for so little in the areas that really could use some improvement, like plot and dialog. I guess it's because we've been given so little in the past that we dare not ask for more even now. So we're given bumpmaps and reflections and Bad Overlords taking over lands full of cheap cliches. And John Mullins. *shiver*

  • Viktor #52 10 years ago

    King Mob! You stole my comment! I was just about to say about one million Americans can't be wrong/flies and shit. Damn, should've woken up earlier.

    On to the question of bugs spoiling gameplay, then. It depends on what we look for in games: if we look for action and reflex tests, it's pretty much ok to have unrealistic AI routines for player detection and having them shoot through walls etc. But if we are looking for immersion into this believable other world that we can experience, nothing busts the suspension of disbelief worse than having clipping problems, stupid AI etc. There's no way to get involved in SOF2, other than in the sense of testing my reaction speed against superhuman AI.

    So yes, SOF2 is playable (just commenting on the bugs, not on the uninspired design, old ideas, the racist worldview and the completely unneccessary gore effects that have teenagers pissing their pants in excitement) but it does not immerse the player to the game world, due to the fact that the bugs "break the game" and dissipate the illusion of really "being there" moment after moment.
    Edited by 2 at 19/06/02 @ 10:28

  • Slacker #53 10 years ago

    Ah... videogames as art... that old chestnut eh?

    Well of course they are- just some are better art than others (just like with books, films, music or any other mainstream artform you care to mention). And a large factor in my deciding whether or not a game is successful as a work of art or not is if it provides anything different, or new. With so many FPS's on the market its hard to see new games coming out that really do provide any significant advancements to the genre that would make them fulfill this. Thats not to say it would be impossible, and I'm not saying that SoF2 offers nothing new- I dont know, I havent played it- its just a general comment. It applies to all genres though and not just the FPS genre.

    And bickering about whether problems with the behaviour of the enemies are due to poor AI, clipping or whatever is largely irrelevent - the more important point being made is that there are problems there.

  • skalmanxl #54 10 years ago

    ...people that takes videogaming as a form of art...

    Nooooo...not that shit here as well!

  • jaa #55 10 years ago

    I didn't play this game and, as I don't play computer games, I don't intend to. So, I won't make comments regarding specific aspects of the game. I'd just like to point out the apparently not so obvious fact that we are all different and our willingness to accept certain aspects (sometimes, they're not even faults) of a game (or whatever) is different.

    The discussion I'm really interested in is the one about games being art or not. There are terrible movies that are as far from "art" as certain games. But we don't question the "art" quality of cinema. Why shouldn't we demand it for games? And do good stories, characters, music, voice-acting, etc., hurt a game? Of course not. So, why settle for less?

    Ico is art, Rez is art, GTA 3 is art, Silent Hill II is art, Half-Life is art, Halo is art... (I'm only mentioning games I've played). As with every other art form, we can like what we get or not - but we know the effort to create something special was there.

  • jaa #56 10 years ago

    Sorry, Skal... :)

  • pjmaybe #57 10 years ago

    If video games are like art, Soldier of Fortune is definitely a painting of a chimpanzee sitting on the loo reading a newspaper.


    Peej

  • skalmanxl #58 10 years ago

    ->jaa

    Not intended towards you, but Max Diablos have been raving about this on Planetcrap. Frankly, I'm a little tired of it.

  • Viktor #59 10 years ago


    The FPS "genre" (I'm perplexed by the fact that we define genres by the viewpoint of the game) has actually a lot of potential.

    People just accept the problems inherent in games, so that the developers don't have to confront them. How to fix the character interaction, where you can only "use" or shoot people? How to make sure that the levels are both open in the sense that the player has freedom, and that the story still progresses and the player doesn't get lost?

    How to make sure that the world interacts with the player, e.g. that wooden doors will not just stay closed after being blasted by a bazooka, fire would affect objects? Sounds would have to propagate properly, shadows should conceal the player if needed and small crates should not be able to block out a road etc.

    Warren Spector is looking to do this in Deus Ex 2, have to hope he succeeds.

    But considering the level design of SOF2, it wouldnt matter if the game was called Time Crisis 3 -- there is no difference at all to the on-rails shooter, just that the player also has to walk on the rail by himself. That sucks. There is no interaction between characters, and locked doors, trucks etc. block the way everywhere. It feels stupid, it feels strange to have to "choose the right route" all the time: why am I not able to choose from different ways to infiltrate the hotel etc. Why can't I disguise myself as a guard by stealing a uniform? Why can't I do anything else than run and shoot from the gun that is pointing from my navel all the time?

  • Errol #60 10 years ago

    Warren Spector is looking to do this in Deus Ex 2, have to hope he succeeds

    He will. Deus Ex will be the best gaming experience ever created, in my opnion.

  • Slacker #61 10 years ago

    The point Viktor made about the world interacting with the player is a good one- you really want to be able to see the effect you have on the world in the game- it adds a lot more to the experience and really allows you to feel like you are more involved- an actual part of that world, rather than a spectator.

    If there is a wooden door and you have a bazooka, as Viktor said, you should be able to blow the door off. If there is a real reason, thats vital to the game, that you dont get through the door at this time, then the designers need to make it so there is a believable reason WHY you cant get through it.

    We accept and encourage the fact that games are not true-to-life and push the boundries of realism, very often defying the laws of physics, but (IMHO) it still needs to be a reasonably believable fantasy if we are expected to really be drawn into the game world

  • UncleLou #62 10 years ago

    "He will. Deus Ex will be the best gaming experience ever created, in my opnion"

    Hm. Deus Ex, while being a very good game, was a bit overrated, imo, so I just let's try not to fall for the hype trap and let's wait, hope and see.

  • Nemesis #63 10 years ago

    ...people that takes videogaming as a form of art...

    Please don't make us all grow Goaties.

    Videogames as an artform. Hmmm. I think you can highlight certain games that just get it right. Unreal, for example, for me was stunning to play through. Halo is another.

  • Gestalt #64 10 years ago

    "If there is a wooden door and you have a bazooka, as Viktor said, you should be able to blow the door off"

    That opens up a lot of new challenges for level designers, which is probably why Red Faction didn't really make full use of its GeoMod system in the end.

    The annoying thing about doors in SOF2 is that you have a tool which can pick locks, but it only works on a handful of doors, and there's no way to tell which the developers have graciously let you open with it unless you walk right up to them and look to see if a tool icon appears. It's a bit of a cop-out to give you that tool and then not let you use it most of the time.

    The only level where you could open most of the doors was on the ship, where you can get into most of the cabins using the tool. It was a nice touch, and there was even a nice easter egg to find in one of the rooms. Why couldn't they have done that on some of the other levels, or at least given a reasonable explanation as to why you can't use it on other doors?

    As it is the tool is essentially pointless - it's just a key substitute that opens maybe one or two mission-critical doors on each level on average, and is otherwise useless. You might as well just make it a blue key card and have it sat on a desk waiting for you.

  • Trunks #65 10 years ago

    I certainly can't believe what I'm reading. SOF2 is a linear shooter, that's it, it's not the kind of game where you must think a lot, you just shoot, avoid fire and go on, that's it. People that bought the game know this, they didn't expected Deus Ex 2 or anything, just an action game, and they got a very good one. Certainly, expect Doom 3 to be the same.

    Some of you are really funny, instead of talking crap of this game you should stick to your games where you feel in another world (to avoid the real one?), and let people that uses videogaming just for entertainment enjoy the game, cause they will. You don't open all the doors and you don't have a Shakespeare story, just A LOT of fun. Me, like many other people, have a life to take care of and I don't want complex games, I play games to relax and have a little fun. And this game was made for people with a life.

    This is my last comment in this site, but I don't wanna go without giving many of you a little piece of advice: GET OUT MORE. Real life is much more beautiful that anything you can see in a monitor.

  • Errol #66 10 years ago

    and they got a very good one

    Which is more than can be said of your last post.

    This is my last comment in this site

    Good.

  • Slacker #67 10 years ago

    Trunks has missed the point a bit...

    The point in a submersive and believable game is not to avoid the real world at all- it just means the experience of the game will be better, therefore making it more entertaining.

    And if people didnt discuss things that could make games better, and criticise any other games then how do you expect games to continue to get better?

  • UncleLou #68 10 years ago

    Is it me, or do you also think the guys who tell you to "get a life" are actually those who have no life?

  • Nemesis #69 10 years ago

    The complete line to "get a life" is "Get a life, and can you pick one up for me whilst you're there"

  • Whizzo #70 10 years ago

    "Get a life, and can you pick one up for me whilst you're there"
    And we're running out of milk and bread too...

  • Nemesis #71 10 years ago

    .......and Jaffa cakes.

  • Errol #72 10 years ago

    Get some fizzy cola bottles as well.

  • Nemesis #73 10 years ago

    Proper fizzy cola bottles mind, not the lame ones.

    Moondust if you can find it, Wonka bars don't count.

    Krrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrshhhhh

    (one for the older readers there)

  • Errol #74 10 years ago

    but the signelplayer part is quite entertaining too

    I must have missed this bit. Do you get to operate train signals, or is it a section where you have to communicate using lanterns ?
    Edited by 1 at 19/06/02 @ 17:45

  • ssuellid #75 10 years ago

    I thought moondust was banned? Thats the stuff that fizzes and cracks on your tongue?

  • Nemesis #76 10 years ago

    ;-) Thats the stuff.

    You can get the same sorta stuff in Wonka chocolate bars now.

  • Errol #77 10 years ago

    You can still buy it by itself as well - in places like woolworths.

  • otto #78 10 years ago

    Moondust - superb - ever try emptying a packet of that into a bottle of Corona Fizz? I believe Moondust has been banned as a WMD (Weapon of Mass Destruction).

  • Errol #79 10 years ago

    ever try emptying a packet of that into a bottle of Corona Fizz?

    Crazy. Just crazy.

  • Nemesis #80 10 years ago

    (drags it back onto topic before the *Zap*)

    So you could use Moondust+coke combo's in a FPS. See, we've just advanced the genre further than most have managed recently.

    *cough*

    Jaffa Cake bait to tempt the AI outta hiding.

    The possibilites are endless.

    Marmine Toast planted in the kitchens to kill off easily fooled Nutella loving grunts.

    Edited by 1 at 19/06/02 @ 18:18

  • otto #81 10 years ago

    ever try emptying a packet of that into a bottle of Corona Fizz?

    Crazy. Just crazy.

    Refreshers had much the same effect.

  • Errol #82 10 years ago

    Anyone remember the holographic projection device from Duke Nukem ?

    I suggest a slight modification: the projection would be of Isla Fisher. This could be used to lure AI guards to an untimely death.

  • Nemesis #83 10 years ago

    But it would only work in certain situations; as Isla is only 5ft and they may not notice her.


  • FWB #84 10 years ago

    A sweet thread... cool. My vote would have to go to what I can only describe as sugared tongues. The thin red strips (not laces) coated in sugar. As I recall, enough could set you mouth on fire and make eating, breath, drinking etc a painful experience. Wonderful!

  • Whizzo #85 10 years ago

    It maybe available as "Moondust" now (I've not seen it) but back in the seventies it was called "Space Dust".

    100% non-natural goodness in a packet.

  • Errol #86 10 years ago

    Isla is only 5ft and they may not notice her

    I like them petite.

  • Viktor #87 10 years ago

    "Certainly, expect Doom 3 to be the same."

    No, I won't expect it to be the same, and no, it won't be the same. When I interviewed Warren Spector for about two hours (he wore out two of my notepads!) at the E3, he specifically pointed out that according to his discussions with Carmack, the stuff ID is working on is trying to make a new FPS that doesn't stick to the stereotypes and conventions of the genre. That means using the horror elements, light, sound and shadows to create an athmosphere, and also having less action and more fear.

    This probably means that in the best of all worlds, Doom 3 and Deus Ex 2 would be equals in advancing a "genre" when compared to the first FPS's that are true gameplay classics: Doom and Ultima Underworld, the first one by Carmack and the second one by Spector. Let's hope for the best.

    "You don't open all the doors and you don't have a Shakespeare story, just A LOT of fun."

    I had "A LOT of fun" playing Halo, because it is a great, consistent and intriguing game, where the point is to have a lot of action. It doesn't have a Shakespeare story, but it gives the player ample possibilities to act the scenes in the way he desires, as opposed to SOF2, where you are just a puppet of the designers.

    And who truly has "A LOT of fun" with such a faschist, violent gore-fest as SOF2? Even though its also a bad game, the horrible right-wind ideology oozing from everywhere in the game and the overblown splatter and amputation effects should be enough to turn away anyone with a human heart. In any other media such thoughtless and careless violence, portrayed without consequences, thoughts or humanity, would be dismissed as sensationalist, low-brow White Trash faschist-entertainment and as lazy workmanship. The violence is boring, not shocking, and in the end it just looks ugly and bad, and makes me worry about the people who enjoy it.
    Edited by 1 at 20/06/02 @ 00:05

  • Gestalt #88 10 years ago

    "the stuff ID is working on is trying to make a new FPS that doesn't stick to the stereotypes and conventions of the genre"

    It's not really an FPS at all by the sounds of things (except in the loosest sense, ie it's first person and you can shoot stuff), and it seems a bit daft to call it Doom. Doom (to me) means gunning down hordes of demons. Doom III is starting to look more like Resident Evil in real-time.

    The only connection between the two is the storyline and setting, but then every id game has the same story - scientists bungle an experiment, opening a portal to hell / other dimensions, and lots of evil monsters and zombies pour through the hole. Somehow you're the only one to survive, and armed only with a pistol / shotgun you must take on the entire enemy army and save the world. At least they came up with a new story for Quake II, even if they did steal it from Starship Troopers. :)

  • Gestalt #89 10 years ago

    Oh, and I'd hardly call Ultima Underworld a first person shooter. Again, yes, it's first person, and yes you can shoot stuff, but it's a role-playing game, not a shooter.

  • UncleLou #90 10 years ago

    "And who truly has "A LOT of fun" with such a faschist, violent gore-fest as SOF2? Even though its also a bad game, the horrible right-wind ideology oozing from everywhere in the game and the overblown splatter and amputation effects should be enough to turn away anyone with a human heart. In any other media such thoughtless and careless violence, portrayed without consequences, thoughts or humanity, would be dismissed as sensationalist, low-brow White Trash faschist-entertainment and as lazy workmanship. The violence is boring, not shocking, and in the end it just looks ugly and bad, and makes me worry about the people who enjoy it."

    Viktor, you are absolutely right here. I haven't played SoF2 yet, but knowing SoF and having read a few reviews of SoF2, I think I can agree. However, I must admit that I tend to apply different standards when it comes to video games, too. While I would hardly read a book or watch a movie spreading the same ideology as SoF, I am pretty sure I would have fun playing the game (though I REALLY wouldn't enjoy the extreme gore level). I don't know why this is, honestly. It's the same, though on a less ideological level, with fantasy, I have read hardly anything except the obvious LotR and Harry Potter in the fantasy field, but I thoroughly enjoy a good fantasy RPG from time to time. Maybe it's because when you apply the same standards to video games as to books/movies etc., you couldn't play anything at all. Me, at least, I haven't seen games yet that come close to, let's say, Kafka for instance.
    Some games are exceptions, like System Shock, Ico etc.
    But that will lead to the tiring "games as art" discussion again...
    Edited by 1 at 20/06/02 @ 09:38

  • jaa #91 10 years ago

    I haven't seen games yet that come close to, let's say, Kafka for instance.

    I think there are a lot of games like Kafka. Games where you don't quite understand what is going on and you seem to have no control whatsoever (be it over your character, the camera or the events).

  • skalmanxl #92 10 years ago

    Doom (to me) means gunning down hordes of demons. Doom III is starting to look more like Resident Evil in real-time.

    I see this a lot. People tend to slag off the new Doom game just because they are intrenched in their old perception of Doom (not saying Gestalt is). Can't people be a little more dynamic? That was then, one can't possibly compare that to games today.

  • Gestalt #93 10 years ago

    I'm all for id trying something different after spending the last decade essentially making the same game over and over again, but it's not Doom. Sorry, but Doom is what got me involved in the mod community and into gaming journalism, so I feel a bit proprietorial about it. :) Imagine how you would feel if George Lucas went away and turned Star Wars Episode III into a claustrophobic haunted house movie.
    Edited by 1 at 20/06/02 @ 10:29

  • skalmanxl #94 10 years ago

    Imagine how you would feel if George Lucas went away and turned Star Wars Episode III into a claustrophobic haunted house movie.

    As long as it's an improvement from Episodde 2, I'm all for it.

  • Errol #95 10 years ago

    Virtually anything would improve on Episode II.

    *runs for cover*
    Edited by 1 at 20/06/02 @ 10:31

  • UncleLou #96 10 years ago

    "but it's not Doom"

    Isn't that a bit early to say that? I mean, all we (or at least me) have seen are a few minutes of gameplay, and Doom 1+2 had a lot of corridors too, hadn't they? I might add that from what I've seen, the atmosphere clearly reminds me of the original Doom. It has the same disturbing mood.

  • Super Stu #97 10 years ago

    Virtually anything would improve on Episode II. /i>

    pah, kids today. Clearly not old skool SW fans ;)

  • Gestalt #98 10 years ago

    "runs for cover"

    You can run, but you can't hide. :p Seriously though, I thought Episode II was pretty cool. There were a couple of cringe-worthy love scenes (the soft and smooth one, and the one with the leather corset - yes, you know the one) and some of C3PO's falling apart jokes were pretty lame (though they made my parents laugh), but overall it was back to the sense of adventure of the original trilogy, and certainly a vast improvement over Episode I. Not that that's saying much. ;)

  • otto #99 10 years ago

    I think there are a lot of games like Kafka. Games where you don't quite understand what is going on and you seem to have no control whatsoever (be it over your character, the camera or the events).

    lol! That sounds pretty much like every game I play! But I think that's just me...

  • skalmanxl #100 10 years ago

    pah, kids today. Clearly not old skool SW fans ;)

    I am, and it didn't stop me from liking Episode 1.

  • Nemesis #101 10 years ago

    I'm beside myself. Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh. Please don't try and make C3P0 funny that way, it doesn't work.

    Anyhow, to throw some fireworks in here, Doom3 is nothing more than an engine/tech demo at the moment, so any comments based on what you expect it to be are probably conjecture at best.

  • Whizzo #102 10 years ago

    C3PO's falling apart jokes were pretty lame
    I thought they were funny in the groaning sort of way, far superior to the crappy slapstick of a certain Gungan. Jar-Jar's antics during the big battle between the Gungans and droids is what really annoyed me about Episode I , his fellow men being cut down in battle and he's behaving like Harold Lloyd!

  • Viktor #103 10 years ago

    UncleLou: Maybe it's because when you apply the same standards to video games as to books/movies etc., you couldn't play anything at all. Me, at least, I haven't seen games yet that come close to, let's say, Kafka for instance.
    Some games are exceptions, like System Shock, Ico etc.

    Well said. Games are an infant media, in the sense that videogaming has been around for what, 20-40 years, depending on what you choose to count as a proper videogame. Compare that to movies, or god forbid, literature, drama or architecture. But in that sense, games are also doing surprisingly well. As with movies, books etc. probably one in a hundred is an interesting cultural stepping stone on the path that pushed the state of the art.

    Of course comparing gaming to linear stories is also difficult in the sense that while non-linear media (like games SHOULD be) are not as good storytelling vehicles, they are able to provide HUGE aesthetical experiences. Like Miyamoto said when I interviewed him: "If you want to tell a good story, go make a movie or write a book! If you want to give the player a toolbox to explore his feelings, make a game", or something in that sense (I can't dig the tape out of the attic).

    But yes, most of games can't be compared to books and movies in the sense of portraying morals, the human condition or anything that Eastern European or Russian literature excels in. But then again, with games like Ico, System Shock, Deus Ex, Planescape: Torment, etc. showing the way forward, we can see that it is possible to make deeply involving, intelligent and also throughly enjoyable games.

    Gestalt: It's not really an FPS at all by the sounds of things (except in the loosest sense, ie it's first person and you can shoot stuff), and it seems a bit daft to call it Doom. Doom (to me) means gunning down hordes of demons. Doom III is starting to look more like Resident Evil in real-time.

    Well, as I said, I have only Spectors comments (and the video, didn't get to play it at E3, although some did) to lean on. I believe that Doom 3 might be a fusion of the most important elements in the first one: the lingering fear when you hear the gurgling sound of imps everywhere, the adrenaline when you let fly with the chaingun, the claustrophobia when you negotiate dark mazes (remember the one on the second level (or third?) where you get the bag full of ammo from behind the secret door, illuminated by the strobe! scary!).

    I do not believe it will become a puzzle game where you will constantly fight the illogical game design and the slow controls (although they do remind me quite nicely of a nightmare, where you are never able to move quite as fast enough as you should, which is the kind of I used to have nearly every night...) -- more likely Doom will try to really surprise the gamers by bending the conventions of the FPS (like the monsters coming through walls, railings etc.) and playing with the feeling of insecurity, fear, helplessness etc. so strongly present in Alien vs Predator 1 and pretty much nowhere else after that.

    But we'll just have to see what happens. As everyone said, it's quite too early to dismiss or expect too much from that project. But look at that hype! Game of the show! Please... Why didn't Zelda get it? That's a game that pushes the state of the art in graphical portrayal of things. As SOF2 shows, we still have a long way to go to achieve photorealism, so maybe we ought to look elsewhere for involving and emotional graphics.

    The whole definition of FPS is of course problematic. Maybe Eurogamer could be a pioneer in changing the way we speak about game genres, which currently seem to be based on mostly where the viewpoint is. That's not exactly what genre means in all other media.
    Edited by 1 at 20/06/02 @ 12:02

  • Nemesis #104 10 years ago

    Whizzo, you and me both. I think it's a major cop-out in the last 3 movies, that any battle has to have comedy running though it. I dunno, it's almost as if Lucas doesn't want to show the fighting as being nasty, like he's trying to distract you from what's actually going on, as if to say "Oh, this is nasty, but hold on, there's a Gungan juggling so that's ok then"

    Keep it like Episode 5 say I. Having Gungans, Ewoks and C3PO running around doing poor jokes is just not really funny.

  • Viktor #105 10 years ago

    What really scares me about EP3 is that it has potential to be a dark, faschinating story about human ambitions destroying lives, the struggle for power and corruption; but probably Lucas will just have Jar-Jar bungling on the screen all the time. "Ani, dont become Darth Vaader, mesa no like". Yeah. Here we go...

  • Nemesis #106 10 years ago

    It's a sad state of affairs.

    Comments I hear about Episode 2 are "It wasn't as bad as Episode 1".

    I think it fair to say Ewan steals the film, but that's partly because no-one else seems overly interested.

    It's such an opportunity lost TBH the more I think about it. Take a look at IV for example. Arms getting cut off and Solo blasting Greedo into next week. Then they go back and mess around with that; when it was a perfectly good scene. The bit with Jabba added in, why? We're clever people, we know he's a wanted man, it doesn't add anything to the film.

  • Errol #107 10 years ago

    I'll be happy as long as Natalie Portman features - in lots of tight outfits.

    I particularly liked the white one.

    *runs to the bathroom*
    Edited by 2 at 20/06/02 @ 12:31

  • Whizzo #108 10 years ago

    "Ani, dont become Darth Vaader, mesa no like".
    "Aaaarrgghh I've had enough! My name is ANAKIN not bloody Annie, that's a girls name! Stuff this I'm going off to throw myself in a volcano and become an evil bastard in black leathers and... and have the voice of a really famous black american actor!"

  • Nemesis #109 10 years ago

    Errol aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaye. We've had that discussion already I believe ;-)

    Count your lucky stars Darth got dubbed people, otherwise he could've had a Devonshire accent. Can you imagine.......

    Edited by 1 at 20/06/02 @ 12:36

  • Slacker #110 10 years ago

    I havent seen Ep2 yet (my grilfriend refuses to go! Can you believe she hasnt even seen the originals?! Not for lack of trying on my part though!)

    I want to go and see it, but I dont expect to really come out thinking much of it- much like episode 1.

    But Natalie Portman... mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

  • DocX #111 10 years ago

    "Count your lucky stars Darth got dubbed people, otherwise he could've had a Devonshire accent. Can you imagine......."

    Not sure how truthful this is (came off Dark Horizons I think), but the Green Cross Code Man was reportedly on TV the other week saying he will be in Ep3 & has started getting into training for the part.

  • otto #112 10 years ago

    getting into training for the part

    eh??? Let me see, his face is entirely masked, his voice is done by someone else, his entire body is draped in shapeless black cloth... What does he need to train for?

  • DocX #113 10 years ago

    I guess Lucas doesn't want the young Darth hobbling around on a zimmer, so Prowse needs to beef up a bit & be able swing the ol' lightsaber around without giving himself a hernia.

  • Super Stu #114 10 years ago

    Making sure people can cross the sets safely without getting knocked down by mad camera drivers?

  • Super Stu #115 10 years ago

    What I'm waiting to hear is when Anakin/Vader has finished killing all the Jedi, to turn around and in his James Earl Jones electronicy voice say:

    " *breathing effect* Dark side ownage!"

  • Nemesis #116 10 years ago

    LMAO.

    He'll probably say something funny and completely fecking ruin the moment.

  • Viktor #117 10 years ago


    He probably says "I like fixing things".

  • Nemesis #118 10 years ago

    Or 'Yipee'

  • Gestalt #119 10 years ago

    "Jar-Jar's antics during the big battle between the Gungans and droids is what really annoyed me about Episode I"

    Yeah, that's the bit that pissed me off the most as well, though there was plenty more where that came from. ;) Pretty much every time Jar Jar opened his mouth, the dull plot, dialogue and acting, plodding pace, Anakin's little "yippee!" exclamations... Horrible.

  • spiny #120 10 years ago

    Nemesis: "Count your lucky stars Darth got dubbed people, otherwise he could've had a Devonshire accent. Can you imagine....... "

    They used to call him "Darth Farmer" on the set of ep 4-6.

    "Join I orr doie luuke"
    "Give yurrself tu the daark soide luke, oh and gerrus a point a zider in wile yur attit, therz a good laad."
    Edited by 1 at 21/06/02 @ 10:31

  • Super Stu #121 10 years ago

    I'll take a combine harvester over a Tie fighter any day

  • Errol #122 10 years ago

    They used to call him "Darth Farmer" on the set of ep 4-6

    lol.