Mario & Luigi: Partners In Time Review

By John Walker Published 21 December, 2005

I HAVE LOVE!

Version tested: DS

Yes it is.

That's all anyone wants to know.

It is every bit as good as Superstar Saga, and it is worth buying immediately. The next eighteen million words will be spent reassuring you of these truths.

If you have, as I once did, come late to the world of Mario's RPG adventures, you'll probably feel that sense of frustrating outsider-i-ness when you see intros like that. I remember when Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga came out two years ago, and everyone was explaining how it was a sequel to Super Mario RPG, and how it had never been released in the UK, and how wonderful it was and why you were bad for never having even heard of it, let alone played it nineteen times through. And I thought, hmmph, well then, this game won't be for me.

I can't remember why, but I bought it and played it anyway. Perhaps it was a desire to defy those smug insiders. And 34 hours and 36 minutes of game time later, I was one of them. You'll understand when the next one comes out, because by then you'll be all caught up and in on the deal.

It's going to be impossible to review Partners In Time without making referrals to its predecessor, and I'm genuinely sorry if you've not played it. But here's the thing - if you've got a DS, you've the capability to play Superstar Saga; and please, look at my eyes, I'm telling you the truth: you will love me for being the person who convinced you to check it out.

'Mario & Luigi: Partners In Time' Screenshot map'Mario & Luigi: Partners In Time' Screenshot map

The map screen gives you an indication of how far you have to go, and where key objects are hidden.

Partners In Time once again, er, partners up Mario and Luigi and sets them off on an adventure to... guess what? Rescue Princess Peach! And once again, while perennial enemy Bowser is around and causing trouble, he's not the primary source of the mischief. This time a race of purple alien mushroom creatures called Shroobs have captured the pink princess and taken her... back in time.

Thus the premise is set for the plumbing brothers to embark upon another royalty rescuing ramble, exploring the platform-and-RPG hybrid worlds in both the present day and in the past. And it's this time travel that brings in PiT's new characters, Baby Mario and Baby Luigi. Apparently not hindered by the paradox-creating difficulties of encountering your own past self, the Mario Bros team up with the Baby Mario Bros, putting you in control of all four at once.

As succinctly as possible, Mario & Luigi: Partners In Time is the mutant child of an RPG and a platform game, a character-driven story explored by jumping on creatures' heads and hitting them with hammers. Winning fights gains XP, which levels the cast, giving them the abilities to fight the more powerful enemies. Which is all an elaborate, deeply refined and involved means of reaching the next toadstool to chat with, or mad exchange with a mad professor.

When Superstar was first encountered, it seemed far too fiddly to be able to control two characters in tandem. But somehow this was immediately not a problem, and as the game progressed, many abilities were given to each. Mysteriously, you were managing to work them both independently and in cooperation, your fingers dancing over the buttons with the nonchalant ease of a touch typist. This time you've been given four to manage at any one time, and once again, you're certain this is going to be impossible.

Alphadream are geniuses. Given the DS, they did not look at the touch screen and attempt to work out how to crowbar an alien input device into their world. Instead, much as with Superstar, they looked at the pattern of buttons on offer, and designed a game around the machine's structure. Four buttons on the right, A, B, X and Y, so assign one to each character. Movement is as simple as pressing the D-pad, with all four following Mario's lead, the Babies riding piggyback on their, um, own shoulders.

'Mario & Luigi: Partners In Time' Screenshot attacks'Mario & Luigi: Partners In Time' Screenshot attacks

This was one of my favourite attacks, once I had it figured out. I woefully underused for the majority of the game, I'm embarrassed to admit.

Making it even more interesting, the Babies can be thrown off, and then run off on their own, splitting your party into two teams and hence offering many scenery-based puzzles. As your skills develop, the Babies can be flattened to discs (wow, that sounds bad out of context) and slotted into narrow gaps, or Mario and Luigi's spinning move can send the kids flying off into the otherwise unreachable distance (amongst many more combinations). The game gives you a series of tools, and then asks you to implement them. The touch-screen is, but for one extremely peculiar and entirely pointless moment, ignored. And oddly enough, that's just as it should be.

What's interesting is quite how different a game Partners In Time actually is, when laid alongside its older brother. Superstar was a deconstruction of the Mario universe, a parody of all that had gone before, and a cunning grin at the conventions it was at once mocking for their over-use, and seamlessly using to perfection. For instance, Mario jumps up and headbutts floating blocks. Something we've always just accepted, which is really rather strange of us. Superstar Saga took the brothers to a museum where blocks from their previous games were on display, and out back a laboratory where blocks for future Mario games were being developed. A running joke was how unfamiliar Luigi was to so many players, with game characters, to Luigi's dismay, all unable to remember his name. "Hooray! It's Mario! And the, er... green guy." It was the meta-Mario, frame-breaking and delightfully silly. Partners In Time, very surprisingly, doesn't even venture near this topic.

This is a game about the personalities of the brothers. It's their character that drives the story, rather than the plot, which is, of course, extremely thin. They're once again just chasing down parts of a missing and fragmented star, in an attempt to recover their oft-captured friend. But rather than being tired or repetitive, here it is the expected foundation on which more interesting insights can be built.

Seeing their infant selves reveals a great deal of their internal drives. Baby Mario, armed with a hammer, cannot help but try to rescue. While the rest are discussing a predicament, perhaps someone trapped in a cage, Baby M will run off on his own and tirelessly, but uselessly, smash away at the walls. When stopped by an adult, he sits and cries. Mario has been driven to rescue since birth.

This may sound like so much bullshit, overly reading into a cartoonish and deeply daft game. But upon completion, there's no doubt that something more mature is going on. Here Luigi is not mocked for being unknown, but for being a coward. In fact, in one particularly striking moment, a character looks into his heart and condemns him for his selfish cowardice in a shocking fashion. There's something deeper going on, the hammer-blow of the tragedy when people notice that Baby Luigi shows no such behaviour. Something happened to Luigi. Man.

'Mario & Luigi: Partners In Time' Screenshot timehole'Mario & Luigi: Partners In Time' Screenshot timehole

Time holes are your means of accessing the past. But thankfully there's no boring Zelda-cloning time-based puzzle rubbish.

Of course, for the most part Partners In Time is hilarious, light-hearted nonsense. I can't think of another game that has had me running into my housemate's room and making him read the screen, while shaking with laughter, over and over.

If you played Superstar then you'll remember Fawful, the main baddie's assistant who so brilliantly spoke in badly translated Japanese game-speak. It was the ultimate in-joke, and tears of laughter were shed. "I HAVE FURY!" This time around there's Stuffwell, a suitcase that accompanies the quad of brothers, storing all their power-ups and special items, as well as acting as a spokesperson when other characters are encountered. He is, by far and away, the very cutest thing ever in the whole history of the entire world, ever. A million billion cute. And he speaks in badly translated Japanese instruction-manual English. I could die of happiness.

"Rudimental!" he cries. "What fortulent timing! Press B to initiate my closing minification cycle and store me..." Always followed by my new "I HAVE FURY!"-replacing catchphrase, "BACK TO ADVENTURE!"

This excellent, knowing, and perfect writing exists throughout the nearly 30 hours of the game. (27 hours 17 minutes, actually). All these lines are from early moments to avoid deep spoilers, so just by way of another proving example, here's one more line I had to jot down when uttered by baddies encountered near the beginning:

"AREA RESTRICTED. ALL NOOB INTRUDERS 2 B HAXORED BY US L33T HAMM3R BROZ.!"

Later they celebrate with, "W00t W00t W00t W00t W00t!"

Oh, go on, one more, please. Uttered by a little Toad in Peach's home:

"This castle's so big, I sometimes get lost. And then I cry a little."

'Mario & Luigi: Partners In Time' Screenshot technology'Mario & Luigi: Partners In Time' Screenshot technology

Again demonstrating Alphadream's brilliant implementation of the new technology, here each pair plays simultaneously on each screen, ultimately working together.

Do you see what I'm doing here? I'm not spending ages describing the gamplayosity, or the high graphicsability. I'm trying to capture something of the experience of what it's like to play this game. It's emotional, ridiculous, and joyous. In fact, how to control it is a part of playing it - the game wants to teach you. Naming all the special moves, or explaining how one engineers the most efficient use of the Pocket Chomps or Smash Eggs - they would be horrific spoilers.

A quick explanation of combat is necessary. As with Superstar, and indeed the GameCube's Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, fights are turn-based, and exist as a learning process. The first time an enemy is encountered, fighting it may be remarkably tricky. Weak-spots are discovered, ideal Bros Items are found by experimentation, and the best way to take advantage of the special move Bros Attacks are exposed. Soon when you meet them you'll polish them off without a worry. The way an enemy attacks you is equally learned. Subtle hints are given before attacks are made - a wink of an eye, the flick of a tentacle - and appropriate counter-attacks can be executed. In some sense, every enemy behaves like a well-made boss - they have weaknesses to be exploited, changing from impossibly strong to easily defeated, without having their difficulty artificially hiked to contradict your developing skill.

Talking of well-made bosses, oh my goodness. Nintendo are endlessly guilty of annoyingly hard bosses, vastly out of proportion with the rest of the game, becoming a hateful frustration that sits between you and any further possible enjoyment. Of the perhaps dozen bosses in Partners In Time, not a single one offends. In fact, they're enormous fun. They're tough. They might even cause a game over. But they are exploitable and defeatable. Superstar was perhaps a teensy bit naughty with its final bad, but no such crime appears here. The final wave of bosses are fantastic, extremely detailed and multi-layered, one taking maybe fifteen minutes to defeat. But I got each one first time. Not because it's stupidly easy, but because it's wonderfully playable. The sense of relief that the fight is over is still huge. But the DS was never thrown across the room, and I didn't have to make the Babies blush with bad language.

A refined version of the previous engine looks utterly lovely. It's simple, but it's very, very pretty, and the character details are gorgeous. Scripted moments inevitably feature one of the two Babies getting upset and crying, which is funny each and every time. Luigi's terror at realising he can't cheer his child self always made me laugh out loud, and it didn't matter how many times he fainted, every time it produced a chuckle.

'Mario & Luigi: Partners In Time' Screenshot mushroom'Mario & Luigi: Partners In Time' Screenshot mushroom

This is what can happen when you live in a mushroom-based kingdom.

The top screen is used in two ways. Most of the time it acts as a general map, showing you whereabouts the Brothers are in that particular zone. Because the game has a much more level-based structure than Superstar's exploratory open world, the map gives a helpful indication of progress, and acts as a hint mechanism for where perhaps a bonus route should be hunted out. Then, when the Babies find one of the myriad areas too small for Mario and Luigi to enter, they appear up on the upper screen, letting you move each pair around at once. Again, this gives rise to lots of involving environment challenges.

Oh, and the sound. The sound! The music is stupendous, making clever references to classic Mario tunes, remixing them with the DS's more sophisticated abilities. Remember that excellent ominous ditty that you heard when going down pipes in Super Mario? Now imagine it with a developing primal beat, and the strain of strings in the background. Then there's the faithful noises of jumping, hitting and being hit, just as they should be. And best of all, the hysterical pseudo-Italian babble when Mario and Luigi chat. Occasionally words of English come from their mouths, which you'll find yourself chanting afterward. "BABIES!" "THANKYOUVERYMUCH!" So fun.

There's one other thing I'm dying to tell you. But I can't. If I did, I'd rob you of the moment when I threw both arms above my head (DS on the desk) and clapped, while shouting, "WOOOOOO-HOOOOOOOOO!" very loudly. And I can't do that to you. So instead, please, whatever you do, don't forget to EXPLORE VERY CAREFULLY IN THE BASEMENT OF THE CASTLE.

It's gorgeous. It's cute. It's surprisingly deep. It's deeply satisfying. And it's oh so hilariously funny. So is there a weakness? A tiny one. While I obviously hate to disagree with anyone, especially Tom, I'd have given Superstar Saga a 10. Partners In Time gets a 9. And the reason for that is that the level-based design has led to a tendency for repetition. While enemies can be avoided, it doesn't change the fact that in about three of the zones their second half is an awful lot like their first half, but without all the new characters to meet. Fantastically, this isn't a problem for the second half of the game, but it does cause the occasional grimace for the first chunk. Occasional, mind. And never long-lasting.

Twenty-seven hours. Without getting stuck. It's HUGE. It's like getting the most wonderful box of chocolates, and then finding that there's a second layer of them underneath the first tray. And then a third. And a fourth. I didn't mention this until now, but it's unquestionably the best DS game so far. And I suspect it will be the best for a long time to come.

BACK TO ADVENTURE!

9 / 10

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About John Walker

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Comments (128) Latest comment 4 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • MORZTAN #1 6 years ago

    JebuS!! Might even consider buying this now :)

    Aaaaaaaand... FIRST!
    Edited by 1 at 21/12/05 @ 07:00

  • DDevil #2 6 years ago

    Oooh yes. I have Superstar Saga, and while I think it's very good, I never got round to completing it.

    I think I shall purchase this.

  • itamae #3 6 years ago

    [/i]"Partners In Time once again, er, partners up Mario and Luigi and sets them off on an adventure to... guess what? Rescue Princess Peach!"[/i]

    Right. Not a game for me then.

  • bef #4 6 years ago

    Passionate writing. I like.

    But, I thought the first one was too difficult. It let's you get to a certain point, only to realise you don't have the skills to defeat a particular boss. At least that is what happened to me. Is it because I spend my items wrongly? Am I just an idiot (probably)? But it happened to me. And after trying to defeat a giant boss for the umpteenth time, I decided to quit. Too bad. Because I dug the tone of voice and atmosphere of the game.

  • Aretak #5 6 years ago

    "AREA RESTRICTED. ALL NOOB INTRUDERS 2 B HAXORED BY US L33T HAMM3R BROZ.!"

    Later they celebrate with, "W00t W00t W00t W00t W00t!"

    That raised a chuckle here. :-)

    I'll have to buy the original again and complete it before getting this one, but after reading that review, I'll definetly be picking it up at some point.

  • Pac-man-ate-my-wife #6 6 years ago

    "Partners In Time once again, er, partners up Mario and Luigi and sets them off on an adventure to... guess what? Rescue Princess Peach!"

    Right. Not a game for me then.

    Why's that? This is a brilliant, hilarious series of games regardless of if you like Mario or not.

  • itamae #7 6 years ago

    "Why's that? This is a brilliant, hilarious series of games regardless of if you like Mario or not."

    I don't know, I played half of Super Mario RPG and was nearly bored to death by the irrelevant story and characters. I appreciate the ideas that go into these games but they are, sadly, not for me.

  • beep #8 6 years ago

    Yet another reason not to buy a 360 (yet).

  • gamerbunny #9 6 years ago

    "Partners In Time once again, er, partners up Mario and Luigi and sets them off on an adventure to... guess what? Rescue Princess Peach!" OLD!!....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

    WHY CAN'T NINTENDO COME UP WITH A BETTER PLOT THAN THIS

  • Benjaminos #10 6 years ago

    It's good, but it's not as good as Superstar Saga.

    1.) It's too short - I don't know about your 27hr playthrough, but I clocked up less than 19, and that was exploring every realm, getting every out-of-the-way bean and badge I could find..
    2.) A talking suitcase is no replacement for Fawful, and the basement _thing_ just isn't enough.

  • Genji #11 6 years ago

    People want plot in a Mario game? This is news!

  • Khab #12 6 years ago

    "Partners In Time once again, er, partners up Mario and Luigi and sets them off on an adventure to... guess what? Rescue Princess Peach!" OLD!!....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

    WHY CAN'T NINTENDO COME UP WITH A BETTER PLOT THAN THIS

    Because, eh, that'd be like making a Bond movie where the villain turns out to NOT want to take over the world.

  • Hicksy #13 6 years ago

    Ach! Another import required o_o

  • MadMirko #14 6 years ago

    WHY CAN'T NINTENDO COME UP WITH A BETTER PLOT THAN THIS

    why can't you type lowercase?

  • Blerk #15 6 years ago

    Great review, fantastic to see some proper enthusiasm in the writing for a change! ;-)

    Anyway, I so wanted to love Superstar Saga, but alas - my sheer loathing of Mario's platform-based gameplay did me in before I could get to the end. I loved the graphics, the characters, the settings, the jokes, the battling, even the slightly-thin story... but the pixel-bloody-perfect jumping (often against the clock) and mind-numbing mini-games just killed it stone dead for me.

    I suspect this to be more of the same, so it's not for me. Which pains me somewhat, to be honest. >-(
    Edited by 1 at 21/12/05 @ 08:43

  • Hicksy #16 6 years ago

    Give it a shot Blerky... you know you want to :D

  • Tiiti #17 6 years ago

    OMG where did this come from? It slipped under my nose :(
    I loved Superstar!

  • Dizzy #18 6 years ago

    Great game.. but it's Mario. Can't stand the little f*cker. No buy.. a pity...

  • Carlo #19 6 years ago

    Dispite the terrible review you done on Lost in Blue John, I'm going to take your word on this one and import it...

    9/10 *and* a passionate review... It'll be unmissible right?

    (I'll let you know in a few days)

  • Blerk #20 6 years ago

    Give it a shot Blerky... you know you want to :D

    Given that it would also mean buying a DS, it'd be a pretty expensive experiment when I know I didn't get on with the first one! :-)

  • Ignatius_Cheese #21 6 years ago

    I absolutely adored Superstar Saga and will no doubt pick this game up very shortly. One thing I admire about Nintendo is its ability to not take it or its creations seriously. The humour in these titles, along with the Paper Mario series, is superb.

    Anyone who wants an enjoyable jaunt with numerous "laugh out loud" situations should seriously consider this along with its predecessor :o)

  • Ignatius_Cheese #22 6 years ago

    I still can't believe you're holding back on a DS, Blerk! Just to be able to experience the wonders of Ossu! Tatake! Ouendan! is enough to pay over the readies for a bit of dual screen fun. And this is only the beginning of Ninty's latest and greatest gadget...

  • Huntcjna #23 6 years ago

    /Orders

  • #24 6 years ago

    Can you feel the love? Can you? You just know it's Christmas now, with the joy and happiness beginning to spread throughout the site. Gosh, I'm coming over all weepy.

    "Merry Christmas everybody!"

  • karlidog #25 6 years ago

    WHY CAN'T NINTENDO COME UP WITH A BETTER PLOT THAN THIS

    Because they've made Peach's inability to stay un-kidnapped for five minutes into a rather excellent running joke. If you don't see how that's even slightly funny, M&L probably isn't for you.

    Anyway, that aside, great review - the M&L games need all the publicity they can get, particularly in the face of the 'oh no, not another Mario game...' attitude (completely ignoring the fact that the actual games are original - stick a different title character in there and the same people wouldn't say a word in complaint) a lot of people seem to have developed lately. Plus, even if you hate Mario, Luigi's in it, man! Luigi!

    One thing stood out to me, though. Nintendo are endlessly guilty of annoyingly hard bosses, vastly out of proportion with the rest of the game. ...whuh? What games in particular? I'm not trying to nitpick - I'm just intrigued. I honestly can't think of a single firstparty Nintendo game with ridiculously hard bosses (Square games, on the other hand...) - anyone care to enlighten me?

  • StixxUK #26 6 years ago

    I think I may be some kind of freak, because Superstar Saga bored the living hell out of me. I forced myself to play it for about 10 hours, hoping it'd click, but it really didn't.

    I just wish I could enjoy these games as much as others seem to.

    /is a bundle of rays of sunshine wrapped in a pretty little bow. In a nice wicker basket.

  • Darkedge #27 6 years ago

    Think this is another marmite game...

  • djchump #28 6 years ago

    I absolutely loved Superstar Saga, so this was already an essential purchase for me. I did think about importing it to get it sooner, but then I had a £5 voucher for play.com so I pre-ordered for £20! But that means I have to wait til 10th Feb - booo! :-(

    oh, and lol @ the people who are asking for PLOT in a mario game... lmao. Since when have games had good plots?
    "Your girlfriend has been kidnapped! Rescue her!"
    "Save the world again! Single-handedly!"
    "Aliens have invaded! Kill them all!"
    "Evil Demon King Slatterly has resurected the 12 Knights of Doom from the pit of Keynes! Kill them all!"

  • Genji #29 6 years ago

    There needs to be some semblance of teen angst, too.

  • Psi #30 6 years ago

    quick get a ds in time for xmas!!!

  • StixxUK #31 6 years ago

    FEE FI FO FUM I SMELL THE BLOOD OF A FANBOY-ONE.

    Fair enough you can say that some or even many of the people that don't like the game have probably not played it, but to suggest that everyone that's actually tried the game will like it - that's bollocks.

    I won't play it because I have a good idea that I won't enjoy it since it's the direct sequel of a game that received similar praise that I didn't enjoy. I'd wager that most of the people saying they love it already haven't played it yet either seeing as it's not out over here :)

  • djchump #32 6 years ago

    @StixxUK
    "I'd wager that most of the people saying they love it already haven't played it yet either seeing as it's not out over here :)"

    No - they just imported the US version which was released 28th November.

  • lost soul #33 6 years ago

    Sounds similar to Paper Mario; I want!

  • StixxUK #34 6 years ago

    Fair enough, enjoy the game. Just saying it's perfectly possible for people to genuinely not like the game. It's not necessarily a case of try it and you will love it - guaranteed.

  • Ceatlan #35 6 years ago

    I was quite enjoying superstar saga, even accounting for boss battles which are something I detest in any game (I wish Nintendo would make there games without boss battles, as I think they are magical experiences apart from those particular parts). That is however I got to the laughing cider jelly monster, where I got stuck and gave up after several days attempting to get past.

    The review of this game has me intrigued because he indicates the boss battles are not so heinous. Should I get it or not ? hmmm ......

    Ceatlan

  • RedPanda #36 6 years ago

    Post deleted at 14:31:59 28-01-2012

  • volvis #37 6 years ago

    Sounds just the kind of game my DS has been lacking. I just hate the fact that it's still over a month away. Damn you, Nintendo!

  • Murbal #38 6 years ago

    What? I was expecting a mark out of 5.

    /runs and hides
    /runs back for coat
    /runs off again

  • Huntcjna #39 6 years ago

    Just rang my local Indie he has it in stock and only wants £25 for the beastie.

    This and Phoenix Wright should keep me busy over christmas.

    /takes early lunch

  • AnotherMartin #40 6 years ago

    A must buy for me to. Loved SSS on the GBA and PM2 on the GC and this review makes it sound right up my street. Now can I wait for the Uk release or not? Maybe I'll replay SSS while waiting, hhmmm?

  • Blerk #41 6 years ago

    I'm just saying that the majority of people on here probably haven't played any of the games in this series and are instantly dismissing it because it's Mario

    Not everyone, blize. Some people have given very good explanations of why they don't get one with it.

    /pouts

  • smelly #42 6 years ago

    Think this is another marmite game...

    No, its not. For it to be a marmite game, people will have to PLAY IT before slagging it off.

    As it stands, we just have a load of fanboys slagging off an original nintendo game for daring to have a nintendo character in it, while they go off and play grand theft auto 532 (this time you get to ride a row boat).

  • Blerk #43 6 years ago

    If it's any consolation, Paper Mario for the GC has all of those points you mention as being good, and no fiddly mini games or akward jumps!

    That is good to know. I've had it sitting on my shelf since the week after release and haven't dared play it after the M&L:SS debacle. :-)

  • Blerk #44 6 years ago

    I'm at work, man! :-)

  • smelly #45 6 years ago

    I've never been a fan of animal crossing....

  • aabyssx #46 6 years ago

    Oh, look! It's Mario! Again... :(

  • smelly #47 6 years ago

    Oh, look! It's Mario! Again... :(

    Oh, look! Its a fanboy in a nitendo thread! Again...

  • StixxUK #48 6 years ago

    Seems to me there are more people complaining about the Mario haters than there are Mario-haters themselves ;)

    I'd just like to clarify - I like Mario games in general, even Sunshine, just didn't get on with Superstar Saga.

  • CosmonautX #49 6 years ago

    Another one on the shopping list, then.

    As the release date for the Euro version is relatively close, I think I'll hold out for that rather than import. It'd be great if we could get Euro & US dates a bit closer together, as I'd much rather support my local market than have to go shopping abroad to avoid a months-long wait for a game. Things seem to have improved a bit with the DS, with only a few notable exceptions (Phoenix Wright & Trauma Centre, for example). Roll on simultaneous launches!

  • aabyssx #50 6 years ago

    > Oh, look! Its a fanboy in a nitendo thread! Again...

    Yes, a fanboy who is still able to play Mario 1 from world 1 to 5 with closed eyes and without releasing the dash button.
    But - somehow - after 15-20 years his stomach got full with that plumber and has a totally different idea of something being innovative and revolutionary.
    It is a waste spending Nintendo's genuine videogame developer skills for titles with that stupid overused plumber. SRY

  • kangarootoo #51 6 years ago

    As this is a Nintendo-centric thread, some of you might find this amusing (and the Nintendo haters probably won't, which in turn amuses me).

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v507/mousedown/revo.s wf

    :)

  • Syneisha #52 6 years ago

    I found the battles in Superstar Saga got old fast, being slow and repetitive while the bosses seemed to be just a shade too hard, which put me right off what was otherwise a charming title. Is this an improvement at all?

  • Kay #53 6 years ago

    Another great game for the DS...I might as well wait until February as I've got so many other games to get through right now.

    The first one was brilliant, just like the Mario RPG series in general (people seem to be forgetting Super Mario RPG on the SNES, which was just as good). And am I the only person who actually liked the boss battles? I thought they were brilliant and stood out, especially the final battle.

    For all those people who dismiss this because it's a Mario game - it's an RPG, for goodness sake. Mario is one of the few videogame characters who lends himself well to other genres, and although I do agree that he is often overused (especially recently), most of his games do turn out to be special, if only because they tend to be slightly different from other games in the genre.

    K

  • kangarootoo #54 6 years ago

    I've never minded Mario either way. He's just an avatar, it makes no odds to me whether he is the one driving, playing golf, playing football, rescuing a kingdom, etc than if any other icon is doing it such as Mickey Mouse or Link.

    If the game is good then I'm happy. Sure, he doesn't suit all situations (Res Evil 4 springs to mind), but that is more an art direction issue.

  • floW #55 6 years ago

    I've got M&L Superstar Saga and Paper Mario (GC one - something about a door) and they would both be in my favourite games ever list, if i made one. This looks to be even better than them two, though I can't really see it being better than Paper Mario (the one thousand year door - is it?). Anyway, I'm getting this.

  • Blerk #56 6 years ago

    I'd have liked to have seen a Mario cameo in Resi 4!

    "It's a me, Mariooooaaaagh!"
    /head removed by chainsaw

    :-)

  • botherer #57 6 years ago

    Ceatlan - definitely!

    I dislike boss fights, and found a couple of those in Superstar Saga to be unnecessarily hard. I was lucky with the final boss, that on one of very many attempts to defeat him he didn't do the swooshy attack that I couldn't avoid, and hence finished.

    But that's all in the past now. The bosses are *perfect*. They are challenging, and they sometimes take a long, long time to defeat. But careful management of health and Bros Items makes them all perfectly beatable.

    No spoilers, but the bosses at the end are just right. And I didn't think Nintendo would ever get that right. (Not that it's actually Nintendo here). Even Luigi's Mansion ends with a boss about ten squillion times harder than the entire rest of the game.

  • floW #58 6 years ago

    I wonder what you'll unlock when you play Partners in time and have Superstar Saga in the GBA slot cos you WILL unlock something...(same company that made Superstar Saga, isn't it?)

  • Blerk #59 6 years ago

    Blerk will you be buying a DS then

    Nope!

  • botherer #60 6 years ago

    aabyssx, read the review. I address this exact issue.

    Syneisha, read the review. I address all your questions.

    Kay, read the introductory paragraphs of the review.

    All people see is a title and a blue number. Bah.

  • caligari #61 6 years ago

    Oh Blerk.

    Hating Mario is like hating The Goonies.

    It just shouldn't happen!

  • Blerk #62 6 years ago

    I don't hate Mario, I just hate his games. Well, the platformers anyway. :-)

  • Kay #63 6 years ago

    Kay, read the introductory paragraphs of the review.

    Er...why?

    Edit: Actually, I see why now. But I was referring to the comments section, as most people mentioned PM2 and SSS but not the original on the SNES. Though not surprising, perhaps, since it never came out here.

    K
    Edited by 2 at 21/12/05 @ 12:49

  • caligari #64 6 years ago

    Now if we can have the DS Tony Hawk review, I can completely bankrupt myself!

  • gypsumfantastic #65 6 years ago

    There are few words for how right Mr Walker is about this.

    I *heart* Partners in Time and Superstar Saga in an especially sordid way.
    Edited by 1 at 21/12/05 @ 13:10

  • UncleLou #66 6 years ago

    It is entirely justified to dismiss a game because of the characters/art style and what not. Games aren't just about the gameplay, they are also about atmosphere, immersion, etc. etc. Ico with Mario or the Doom protagonist? Wouldn't have worked.

    That doesn't mean I won't maybe try this game, but the fact that it's another Mario game is a serious turn-off.

  • Genji #67 6 years ago

    "Ico with Mario or the Doom protagonist? Wouldn't have worked."

    But how do you know, man? HOW DO YOU KNOW?

    It depends on whether a game is AIMING for immersion. Not all games do, you know. I've never felt immersed in a Mario world, but that doesn't affect my enjoyment one bit.

    It's a lot of fun. Mario is just the cosmetics.

  • tengu #68 6 years ago

    Dunno about this one now. I got about three hours into the GBA original and haven't gone back since, it just bored the arse off me. I was hoping for something like Paper Mario, but it just wasn't as much fun.

    I'll perhaps go back to it in a bit when I've gone through all my DS games.

  • Pac-man-ate-my-wife #69 6 years ago

    aabyssx
    21-Dec-05 11:29:16

    ...somehow - after 15-20 years his stomach got full with that plumber and has a totally different idea of something being innovative and revolutionary.
    It is a waste spending Nintendo's genuine videogame developer skills for titles with that stupid overused plumber...

    You seem to be mistaking using the same mascot for creating sequels to the same game. Super Mario Strikers is totally different from Mario & Luigi is totally different from Mario Kart DS is totally different from Super Mario 64 DS.

    All are 'Mario' games, yet all are completely different types of games.

    Get over the hate, enjoy great games.

  • andrewfromdoncaster #70 6 years ago

    Yes a tony hawk review would be nice :D

  • ST.. #71 6 years ago

    Pretty much everywhere else has said this isn't as good as SS.....colour me sceptical. Again.

  • botherer #72 6 years ago

    ST, for crying out loud.

    "I'd have given Superstar Saga a 10. Partners In Time gets a 9."

    Does anyone read the reviews? I'm filling the next one with insults aimed at everyone who writes a comment proving they didn't bother.

  • botherer #73 6 years ago

    Oops. You've got something of a point there.

    It's definitely worth buying immediately, and it's all but every bit as good as SS.

    My bad.
    Edited by 1 at 21/12/05 @ 14:35

  • aabyssx #74 6 years ago

    > Get over the hate, enjoy great games.

    Yes, that is what I want to do. But it is not simple hate.
    You know, I like pickled cucumber a lot. ;)
    But if I get to eat too much of those, I start to feel sick. No matter wheter they serve it with excellet ice cream or peanut butter I still get that taste I don't like.

  • Kami #75 6 years ago

    For me, I ask these questions.

    * Is the game good?
    (Yes)
    * Is it going to last me a good month or so?
    (Yes)
    * Has it had good reviews?
    (Yes)
    * Can I afford it?
    (Err...)

    If characters stopped me playing games, I'd not be playing any Soul Calibur game (purely because I cannot stand the wierdness and just general wrong-ness of Voldo), I wouldn't have played Tomb Raider: The Last Revelation (Which was pretty good), and I sure as hell wouldn't be playing half the games out there with a-typical stereotypes passed off as quasi-interesting characters.

    Mario is an odd choice as a hero. But he's instantly recognisable, he is somewhat lovable and it's the simplicity of the plot which often allows for more to be piled on top. Mario is one of those rare characters/franchises which could very realisitically go on for many decades to come.

    When the games are this good, you're really stretching to banality to say you won't play it purely because of the characters. Who cares when games like this are so wonderfully realised, so beautifully crafted and so expertly delivered?

  • kangarootoo #76 6 years ago

    @Blerk

    "I don't hate Mario, I just hate his games"

    Actually he just puts his name on the box, but has an army of ghost devs that do all the real work. He just sits about smoking, drinking and watching QVC. If the kids ever find out...

  • Blerk #77 6 years ago

    I always knew he was the Naomi Campbell of gaming!

  • #78 6 years ago

    Superstar Saga bored the living hell out of me. I forced myself to play it for about 10 hours, hoping it'd click, but it really didn't.

    I have to agree with the man here. SSS just didn't do it for me.

    Still want to check out Paper Mario 2 though.

  • SirScratchalot #79 6 years ago

    Blerk, your opinion on Superstar saga is perfectly reasonable and understandable.
    Those were annoying.
    You might want to try Paper Mario 2 though as it´s the excellent humour and battle system without the heinous jumping.

  • Blerk #80 6 years ago

    Jumping sucks! Just say NO to pixel-perfection in your RPGs!

    /waves banner
    /wears T-Shirt
    /sings song with kids from Grange Hill

  • basilbrush #81 6 years ago

    M&L: SS is up there as one of the most charming and enjoyable titles i've ever played, can't wait to get this, very glad i decided to take the risk and go DS instead of Playstation 2 portable, or PSP, wotever..

  • UncleLou #82 6 years ago

    For me, I ask these questions.

    * Is the game good?
    (Yes)
    * Is it going to last me a good month or so?
    (Yes)
    * Has it had good reviews?
    (Yes)
    * Can I afford it?
    (Err...)

    ...

    When the games are this good, you're really stretching to banality to say you won't play it purely because of the characters. Who cares when games like this are so wonderfully realised, so beautifully crafted and so expertly delivered?

    See, that just shows different priorities. I couldn't care less if a game lasts me a month. I am completely happy with a great game that lasts me for a week.

    And you're seperating the gameplay from the rest of the game - which doesn't really work for me. Putting in a lowest-common-denominator character like Mario - and that's what he is for me - is putting me off, as it influences the experience as a whole, especially when it's an adventure/RPG type of game. Gameplay is important, but it's not everything.

    See, nothing to do with banality. Just different priorities.

  • botherer #83 6 years ago

    I think possibly why people are getting annoyed in this instance is because the Mario & Luigi games are *about* the overuse of Mario. The games begin knowing that you are very, very familiar with this character, if only because of his iconic status, rather than a knowledge of the games, and then launches from this.

    Especially Superstar Saga, which creates a Verfremdungseffekt, critiquing the Mario universe on the very matters people are naming as reasons to not play.

    Which of course causes people who love the games to become annoyed and call those people dicks.

    I remember a time recently at a youth group I organised, kids aged 10 to 13, trying to show them The Princess Bride. They wouldn't listen to the film, and started complaining about it being boring and a rubbish love story, and wouldn't shut the hell up long enough to realise that Fred Savage's character was saying the exact same thing. Stupid 11 year old idiots.

  • botherer #84 6 years ago

    It's not a spoiler. It's a regular moment from an earlier section of the game. You can relax.

  • UncleLou #85 6 years ago

    But Mario games aren't Bert Brecht. I simply don't like the art style, the voice etc. etc. I don't really care too much that the game is supposed to be a criticism of the Mario characters, as I simply don't think Mario is an interesting enough character for an intellectual experiment. He just annoys me, and it doesn't matter if he's supposed to annoy me in the context of that specific game. :)

    And criticising games with Mario always annoys people, Verfremdungseffekt in htis specific case or not. The discussion wouldn't have been different if it was the lateset Mario Tennis game.

    Like I said, the gameplay might be great, but the gameplay in Warrior Within arguably was better than in Sands of Time...
    Edited by 1 at 21/12/05 @ 18:57

  • SirScratchalot #86 6 years ago

    Well you know, one of the good points of the mario RPGs is that they actually do some pretty excellent characterisation of Mario et al.
    Paper Mario does a most excellent job of establishing Mario as the silent strong man for example and draws parallels to many famous books, the quick IT developments etc.

    Simply put, while warrior withing perverted a charming character this is the exact opposite. You don´t have to play it but you should at least realise that there is a lot to these games.
    Edited by 1 at 21/12/05 @ 19:37

  • smelly #87 6 years ago

    you should at least realise that there is a lot to these games.

    dont waste yer breath mate. The fanboys will slag the game off, solely becuase it's mario and on a nintendo console. Trying to explain to them this is a good thing is like talking to a brick wall.

    Let them be happy with their endless tired boring racing games while they snigger at us for having fun playing lots of different mario titles, where each plays significantly differently.

  • Razz #88 6 years ago

    Cool. Better than every xbox 360 game. :)

  • UncleLou #89 6 years ago

    smelly, for a change, could you read other people's post once in a while instead of copypasting your generic fanboy comment in each and every Nintendo thread? It's not clever, and it's boring. Only slightly amusing in so far as you of all people have the nerve to call other people fanboys.

    Really, some people.

    o_O

  • UncleLou #90 6 years ago

    Imagine that's how my eyes look when I stare at the fanboy. :)

  • Kami #91 6 years ago

    blizeH: Yes, yes, I play WoW. Took a few reinstalls/patches to rid myself of the odd disconnection problem, but got over it. (Hopefully Blizzard will have a better repair tool in future. Hey, we can hope, right?)

    UncleLou: I think calling Mario a "Lowest-common-denominator" character is really rather harsh. He's Nintendo's mascot, and has been for what? Over two decades? You can't knock longevity like that. Nor MOST of his games (I do say "MOST";) - which are often very well made.

    People like Mario, he's recognisable. Inoffensive. He's always saving the girl. He is likable.

    Thing is, I don't care what Mario is doing. Golf, tennis, football, dancing, snowboarding (all that exercise and Mario still has a gut!), RPG adventuring and bouncing around some 3D game - the games are by and large, very very good. In a gaming world where things are often forsaken for the almighty dollar (Sonic the Hedgehog an astoundingly good demonstration of this), it's kinda nice to think that you can pick up a Mario game, and regardless of the daftness and blatant absurdity of it, that it will be fun.

    Maybe Mario does need a holiday, heck, he's earned it. But on that note, I would kinda miss games like this and Superstar Saga, and his endless trange sporting obsessions - because like Mario or loathe Mario, they're still good fun. And in the end, that's what we as gamers want, right?

  • Artemis_Matsas #92 6 years ago

    I tottaly agree with Blerk on this one. I don't care about how cute or playable this game is.
    Just by looking at those screenshots my eyes hurt...

    And don't start screaming "fanboy". I own both a PSP and a DS, so it's just an honest opinion.
    Edited by 1 at 21/12/05 @ 23:44

  • Beitel #93 6 years ago

    BACK TO ADVENTURE!

    Need I have to say more? :')

  • smelly #94 6 years ago


    smelly, for a change, could you read other people's post once in a while instead of copypasting your generic fanboy comment in each and every Nintendo thread?

    ???

    Now i'm confuzzled. If you read my posts, im having a go at the people who come into nintendo/sony/microsoft threads for the sole reason of slagging off other peoples consoles.

    But it's the microsoft/sony fans which are the worst for this! Look at how many comments this game has got (currently 118!!). Most of them are saying "meh, mario sucks, etc etc". You dont get that many posts when other games on other systems get good reviews do you?

    Im a fan of nintendo games, i make no pretense not to be. That said, I couldnt be a fan of microsoft or sony games, as they dont make games, they just own companies which make games. (and yes, i realise this game wasnt made by nintendo, but it'd be their input which makes it so good). But I'm not a console fanboy, i currently own all the current consoles (except for the psp and 360, as i'll wait for something worth playing before i get them).

    I'll remember in the future, not to argue against fanboy comments, as that makes me a fanboy.. or something. *sigh*.


    Gameplay is important, but it's not everything.

    Eh?!?? What the hell are we playing games for if it's not for the gameplay? That's like saying musics not important to an album isnt it?

    I guess i'm too old-skool when it comes to games, i like my games to be just that - games. I think nowadays people dont actually buy games to enjoy them, they just seem to buy them because they're cool or whatever. Then moan that all their games suck.

    But I might be wrong, If someone could explain to me what they're playing games for if it's not for enjoyment of the game, then I'm all ears.

    Edited by 1 at 22/12/05 @ 09:01

  • Blerk #95 6 years ago

    I tottaly agree with Blerk on this one. I don't care about how cute or playable this game is.
    Just by looking at those screenshots my eyes hurt...


    Which is curious, because that's almost precisely the opposite of what I said. :-)

    I love the look, I don't get on with the gameplay.

  • Artemis_Matsas #96 6 years ago

    @Blerk

    Ooops, sorry. My comment about the graphics was completely mine. I didn't distinguish my position properly in my previous post.

  • UncleLou #97 6 years ago

    Gameplay is important, but it's not everything.

    Eh?!?? What the hell are we playing games for if it's not for the gameplay? That's like saying musics not important to an album isnt it?

    Again, I don't have the impression you read my posts. I don't like Mario. Does that make me Sony or MS fanboy? I never had an Xbox, and my PS2 broke ages ago, but I love my DS to bits. SO there.

    And secondly, no, gameplay isn't everything. Take ICO - the gameplay was good, but not what made it a classic. It was the atmosphere, immersion, use of art, graphics and sound, etc.

    For you, the gameplay is all and everything. For me, it isn't. The gameplay in Warrior Within was arguably better than in Sands of Time, and yet it was a much weaker game.

    I am not sure why I write this all again, as I've written it in this thread already.
    Edited by 1 at 22/12/05 @ 10:11

  • botherer #98 6 years ago

    UncleLou, could you explain what "gameplay" is?

  • UncleLou #99 6 years ago

    Gameplay is just the underlying mechanics of a game, without the graphics, art, sound, story, uless they are integral part of the game, like the sound in REZ, for example, etc. etc. Gameplay is first and foremost the controls, the challenges and the ways to overcome them, the AI, and the level design.

    Disagree? :)

  • botherer #100 6 years ago

    It sounds to me like you're describing the architecture, or the engine.

    It's a wobbly argument that everyone's having.

    I think it's erroneous to say that one cannot enjoy a game because Mario is the avatar, especially if one is stating that it's not the accompanying aesthetics of a Mario game that causes the offense.

    It seems a very petulant reason to reject a game. Whatever, fine, don't play, obviously. But I find it extremely peculiar that someone should think "I just don't like Mario" to be a debate-ending deal-breaker. Unless he killed your parents in front of you or something.

    That's why I won't play Sonic.
    Edited by 1 at 22/12/05 @ 10:34

  • UncleLou #101 6 years ago

    I think it's erroneous to say that one cannot enjoy a game because Mario is the avatar, especially if one is stating that it's not the accompanying aesthetics of a Mario game that causes the offense.

    It seems a very petulant reason to reject a game. Whatever, fine, don't play, obviously. But I find it extremely peculiar that someone should think "I just don't like Mario" to be a debate-ending deal-breaker.

    But I didn' say I wouldn't ever play it. In fact, I said I might try it, just like I bought Mario Kart DS. I was only arguing against the people who said that it shouldn't matter at all whether it's a Mario game or not, and that gameplay is everything. With which I disagreed.

    Out of interest, what is your definition of gameplay? Apart from the different fighting and the fact that the level architecture (with the backtracking etc.) in Warrior Within is different, would you say SoT and WW have different gameplay?

    What about Ico - let's say Mario was the main character, the girl would be Lara Croft, and the art style would be straight out of Quake, and there would be happy music playing in the background all the time, but with the rest of the game untouched, would you say it had different gameplay? And would the game be just as good as it is now?


    lol@your Sonic line, btw. :)

  • botherer #102 6 years ago

    I don't define "gameplay", as I find it an unhelpful term. I'm more comfortable defining specific mechanics, or how the game feels when you play it.

    It's like when people describe something as 'ironic' when they mean it's either 'contradictory', or 'oddly appropriate'. If a word is understood to mean wildly different, or even opposite things, I think it's probably better to use a more specific word.

    Of course, 'ironic' should only be used when the implied meaning is contrary to the actual meaning. Tell your friends.

  • UncleLou #103 6 years ago

    Of course, 'ironic' should only be used when the implied meaning is contrary to the actual meaning. Tell your friends.

    Without wanting to start another debate, that's a pretty narrow definition of "irony". Thomas Mann is widely regarded as the absolute literary master of irony, but you'll be hard-pressed to find a single sentence in his entire work where something is said and the opposite is meant. :)


  • smelly #104 6 years ago

    surely "gameplay" means just that? "how the game plays"?

  • botherer #105 6 years ago

    UncleLou - do you see my point then? (And dramatic irony still follows the same rule).

    Smelly - Tell me how many a game plays out of 10. It's a nonsense concept. I can describe the experience of playing the game to you. But I'm not going to appoint a gameplayosity score to this - it's meaningless. In fact, I make this exact point in the review. Man, I'm so good.

  • McGeeza #106 6 years ago

    gameplay = subjective

    subjective = undefinable

    undefinable = hate

    hate = suffering

    /gets wookiee pelt

  • UncleLou #107 6 years ago

    Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. The term gameplay is pretty clearly defined, and nearly all review sites and gamers use it in an identical fashion. In this thread, too, btw. I don't see a misunderstanding here based on different views of what "gameplay" is.

  • Hog-lumps #108 6 years ago

    The term gameplay is pretty clearly defined, and nearly all review sites and gamers use it in an identical fashion

    I'm not so sure that there is a 'black & white' definition as you imply. I'm certain that my idea of what gameplay encapsulates will vary to your own.

    I think personally that gameplay is useful term for describing ones own experience, but it is entirely relative and subjective to the individual.

  • McGeeza #109 6 years ago

    Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. The term gameplay is pretty clearly defined, and nearly all review sites and gamers use it in an identical fashion. In this thread, too, btw. I don't see a misunderstanding here based on different views of what "gameplay" is.

    Fantastic. In that case can you do me a favour and give me a definitive list of the 10 best games of all time, sorted by 'gameplay'?

    I want to make sure I own them all.

    o_O indeed.

  • UncleLou #110 6 years ago

    What's definitely subjective is the evaluation of the gameplay, but I would have said that, by and large, there is a commonly accepted idea of the elements gameplay consists of. Which doesn't mean this isn't a debatable or problematic deginition, but it's one that is widely used.

    To use my Prince of Persia example again: I don't think many people would see the majority of canges from SoT to WW as gameplay-related.

    I am, without any irony (hah!) eager to hear any other definitions or opinions of what gameplay is, though. :)

  • Hog-lumps #111 6 years ago

    Gameplay is just the underlying mechanics of a game, without the graphics, art, sound, story, uless they are integral part of the game, like the sound in REZ

    Unclelou you mentioned this earlier – I think it just goes to show that even to yourself the term is slightly ambiguous and will vary dependant on the game. I.e. does the sound in REZ actually contribute to the gameplay? – I think it’s debatable!

  • UncleLou #112 6 years ago

    Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. The term gameplay is pretty clearly defined, and nearly all review sites and gamers use it in an identical fashion. In this thread, too, btw. I don't see a misunderstanding here based on different views of what "gameplay" is.

    Fantastic. In that case can you do me a favour and give me a definitive list of the 10 best games of all time, sorted by 'gameplay'?

    I want to make sure I own them all.

    o_O indeed.

    Calm down.

    How am I meant to compile such a list? Whether gameplay is good or not is entirely subjective, I never said anything else. I just said that the elements that make up the gameplay are elments that, usually, can be seperated clearly from other elements like the art style, the story, the sound and the graphics.

    I dont't see what makes you all excited there, but maybe you care to explain.
    Edited by 1 at 22/12/05 @ 12:31

  • MrChuckles #113 6 years ago

    Bah, Nintendo in lets make "Insert old Nintendo Franchise" for the "Insert new console platform"' shocker.

    Still yet to find a Mario game i actually enjoy, although Paper Mario was the best, still only held my attention for a while until it became depressingly repetitive.

    And no i don't hate Nintendo either, i have a gamecube, did have a GBA until i got burgled, and now i have a DS.

    Mario = Light, and i like deeper games.

    Edited by 1 at 22/12/05 @ 14:14

  • botherer #114 6 years ago

    "Well, we'll have to agree to disagree."

    Hnnnnnggggghhhhhhhhhh.

  • UncleLou #115 6 years ago

    Hm?

    If you want a more eloquent dicussion where I use less clichéd phrases, we can continue in German if it bothers (see what I did there?) you so much.

    Or does it annoy you that I didn't agree with you?

  • botherer #116 6 years ago

    The phrase "Let's agree to disagree" annoys me. Fingernails on a blackboard.

    It seems ludicrous to me that you're arguing it's a clearly defined term with consensus understanding, and then splutter with shock when someone asks you to use the word in a constructive way.

    So I can only repeat myself. It's an unhelpful, multifarious term, that serves no useful purpose, obfuscates any useful communication, and is far better replaced by a dozen other more specific words.

    Websites that rate "gameplay" exclusively fail to provide a useful definition of the nebulous concept, and since accurate communication is the most important element of writing, it's always best to reject such words absolutely.

    I'm surprised actually, since German is a language so focused on specific words rather than obscurely-encompassing umbrella terms.

  • McGeeza #117 6 years ago

    Calm down.

    How am I meant to compile such a list? Whether gameplay is good or not is entirely subjective, I never said anything else. I just said that the elements that make up the gameplay are elments that, usually, can be seperated clearly from other elements like the art style, the story, the sound and the graphics.

    I dont't see what makes you all excited there, but maybe you care to explain.

    It's because I love you and i'd like to sleep with you.

  • UncleLou #118 6 years ago

    It seems ludicrous to me that you're arguing it's a clearly defined term with consensus understanding, and then splutter with shock when someone asks you to use the word in a constructive way.

    So I can only repeat myself. It's an unhelpful, multifarious term, that serves no useful purpose, obfuscates any useful communication, and is far better replaced by a dozen other more specific words.

    When did I "splutter with shock"? And who asked me to use the word in a constructive way?

    I've told you, numerous times, what I think the term "gameplay" means, and illustrated it with examples. Your only reply was that it is a nebulous concept.

    This discussion is starting to annoy me, as I feel it is a bit one-sided, and I am not entirely sure I like you're tone.

  • McGeeza #119 6 years ago

    This discussion is starting to annoy me, as I feel it is a bit one-sided, and I am not entirely sure I like you're tone.

    I love it when you're angry.

  • marilena #120 6 years ago

    Lou, you're so upset you got your grammar wrong :).

    I have to agree with the idea that 'gameplay' is a pretty well defined word and it referes to the mechanics of the game. Sure, it's interlinked with other elements, but for the most part it's pretty clear what's related to gameplay and what not.

    And I can't make a top ten, but I can give you a few examples of games that shine through gameplay and not other elements: Civilization, Worms (I know it's also cute, but it's not that what makes it so brilliant), Sim City, Railroad Tycoon... On the other hand, the adventure genre and to some extent the RPG genre are historically less well done in terms of gameplay and are based more on the atmosphere / story part of of things. Like Lou says, Ico is a good example, but I go as far as to say that every adventure game in existence is flawed in gameplay, because the puzzle, as a gameplay mechanic, sucks arse.

    And now it's me who has to run :).

    /runs
    Edited by 2 at 22/12/05 @ 16:23

  • UncleLou #121 6 years ago

    This discussion is starting to annoy me, as I feel it is a bit one-sided, and I am not entirely sure I like you're tone.

    I love it when you're angry.

    Oh, I love it too. That's how I earn my money, you see. :)

  • UncleLou #122 6 years ago

    Oh, sorry, Hog-lumps, I saw your earlier question and forgot to reply. I would say sound is superfluous to gameplay (not to the game, mind) if it just accompanies the game, but isn't an integral part of the play mechanics. An obvious exception would of course be rhythm/music games of all sort. Of course sound can massively enhance the overall experience of a game, but usually I wouldn't classify it as a gameplay element.

    edit:

    Hohum, now that I answered, the question is gone. I am not crazy yet, there was a post right there a few minutes ago. Honest. :)
    Edited by 1 at 22/12/05 @ 16:56

  • smelly #123 6 years ago

    Smelly - Tell me how many a game plays out of 10. It's a nonsense concept. I can describe the experience of playing the game to you. But I'm not going to appoint a gameplayosity score to this - it's meaningless. In fact, I make this exact point in the review

    So you're agreeing with me that scores are pointless then?

    I really enjoy when people dismiss my comments without reading them, or indeed (as "unclelou" did), mistake my points to the fanboys as being about them!

    Seriously, erm.. get a life!

  • Genji #124 6 years ago

    Oooh. This is a nice argument.

    Gameplay is very important to me. But then again, I didn't love a game like Killer7 for the gameplay. Or Silent Hill. Or etc.

    With Mario, however, the gameplay is pretty much all I care about. I remember cringing when they attempted to do a real storyline, FMV cutscenes and all, for Mario Sunshine. That was horrible. But the gameplay was ace.

  • Hog-lumps #125 6 years ago

    Hohum, now that I answered, the question is gone. I am not crazy yet, there was a post right there a few minutes ago. Honest. :)

    Yeah sorry 'bout that Unclelou, when I re-read my question I thought it came across in an insulting way. I deleted quickly after I posted but obviously not quick enough obviously!

    You do make some good points though. All I was trying to argue was that the boundaries of gameplay are slightly fuzzy, but I think from reading your comments that we both agree on that!

  • Hicksy #126 6 years ago

    Jebus kicked off a bit in here didn't it o_O

    To add my 2 cents - it's bloody brilliant!!!

    9.5/10!!! :D

  • Mr_V #127 6 years ago

    Isn't the European release of this only scheduled for the 10th of Feb.? It's already on the shelves here in Germany.

  • Flagship #128 6 years ago

    bought this off a friend the other day, can't stop playing it, so good!

    although I wouldn't have minded a little more freedom within the game

    x

  • RandyMonk #129 4 years ago

    Any Italians take offence to Mario and Luigis babbling? Or is that the way Italian plumbers usually talk?