Forza Motorsport Comments by Kristan Reed

I must say, I'm a bit surprised. Not by the review, but because I had heard that the demo that has been doing the rounds was a bit poo. It seems that they have turned it around for the final release.

In GAME on Saturday I got given a demo disc with Forza/Outrun 2/PGR2 demos on. Is the Forza demo on that disc the final build?

Anyway, I'm glad the review is positive, I was a tad disappointed by GT4, it didn't seem to progress the genre in any way, and I hope that Forza with its online presence and damage modelling will mean better things for driving games in the future.

M

For me, Forza has just come out too late. I have far less time to play games than I did when I was a student, and I've already sunk so much time into GT4 that I don't really want to start another epic driving game.

Which is a pity, because it sounds like Forza has addressed many of GT4's shortcomings, with better customisation, better AI and the inclusion damage modelling (I try to keep it clean in GT4, but every time the going gets tough I end up just punting my opponents off the track). GT4 has more cars, but that's only because it included every Nissan Skyline since the late 60s (and how many of us really care?), and Forza has Ferraris and Porsches, which no driving sim should be without. Forza's online modes mean nothing to me, because I don't have broadband at home.

I've only played the demo of Forza that comes with Jade Empire (I don't know how early a build it is), and I wasn't at all impressed with the graphics, they weren't a patch on GT4's. I also ended up driving like a complete monkey, probably due to the fact that I'm not used to using the Xbox triggers for accelerating and braking, but the car seemed very difficult to control (I was using an Impreza STI with no assists on, which I can handle quite easily in GT4, also without assists). Maybe it was because of the early build, maybe unfamiliarity with the controls, but I wasn't particularly impressed. What did impress me was the time I lost control and spun out at the top of the corkscrew at Laguna Seca, and the car following me braked to a standstill to avoid me (in GT4 they would have just slammed into me). Other people in the forums seem to suggest the computer will often just bump you off, but just from the demo I thought the AI was streets ahead of GT4's.

Maybe I'll pick it up six months or a year down the line when I've exhausted GT4 and feel the need for another driving "sim".

I thought the demo was pretty poor to be honest, really disliked the handling model - is it in any way comparable to the finished article? I am being tempted by being able to create my own livery, but I just bought outrun 2 to fix my racing needs (£7.96 from amazon!!)

That wasn't a review of the game, so much as a ritual bumming of it, if I'm not mistaken.

I noticed the review went into great detail about how you should play your career mode (thought this was a review, not a players guide) but practically ignored what actual proper modifications you can do to your car, apart from saying you can get "engine power upgrades".

And follow a line around the track (ok, wow, it changes colour) is described as "One of Forza's great innovations"?! Even the oldest F1 game I have (F1 GP2 on PC) has this option. Besides, you are meant to learn racing lines for yourself.

The graphics. EuroGamer say they are great, every other reviewer and most people on forums (including this one) say they are nowhere near as good as GT4's. They mentioned it runs at 30fps in the review, and then, instead of mentioning that the game's closest competitor runs at 60fps (GT4), they say "Burnout 3"?! Ok its a great game, but not a good comparison. Have EG been slipped a couple of quid under the table by Microsoft or something? Besides, Polyphony Digital would have squeezed something spectacular out of the PS2, if they had considered 30fps to be an acceptable frame rate. This gets overlooked ALL THE TIME.

Forza lacks rallying which wasn't mentioned, it has rubber-band AI if you get too far ahead of the race, and most of all I feel Forza attracts the 'Favour-the-underdog' syndrome much more than it deserves.

Zerob - have you played this yet or are you just gutted it scored better than GT4?

I've played a demo of it round a mates house. Don't know what verison it was though. Prob an old one as I wasn't impressed with the handling.

My problem isn't just with the game, its with the "review", as it makes out the game has no down sides. The game that can do no wrongs. The game that has a holy glow. I'm surprised a religion hasn't sprung up already to worship the game on a twice daily basis, if its as good as the review says.

Its nothing to do with what GT4 got either. I've learned that, unless an overwhelming majority of reviews say a game is good, they should not be believed, as there are bias reviews out there. Besides, I expected GT4 to score lower, as reviewers seem to treat marking video games like school children, "its not how good it is, its how much you've improved", and I'll admit, GT4 hasn't really moved on much since GT3 in a big enough way. But that doesn't go to say its a less than awesome game.

No, that is HL2

"No, that is HL2"

Exactly. But that recieved lower than expected scores simply as it was hyped to death and was a huge disappointment, as it was very similar to the first. I'm sorry to say, and this is the truth, but I don't like Halo. In fact, ALL FPS games simply bore me. Played too many and there are only so many bad guys you can point and shoot at before getting bored. I know you can say similar things about a lot of games but all FPS simply bore me.

But, thats not the point. A lot of people think Halo 1&2 are awesome games. So thats what counts. And the second is no less brilliant than the first.

lol scimirad if you didn't like PGR2 then you obvouisly don't like driving sims.

Zerob_cool you stick to loving GT4 and leave the xbox owners alone :)

He he, ok.

//Takes PS2 off pause. Keeps racing.

Zerob, I think a key bit you missed about the racing line was the word 'Dynamic'.
" Usefully, it's not simply a generic 'best racing line' suggestion that applies to each track, but will actually change to suit whatever car you're in at the time as well."

see.

Still no in car view though.

(I know that quote doesnt actually say 'dynamic' in it)

Yeah it changes due to your car. If you choose a slower car, you can usually take a sharper line around the corner. Thats just obvious. My point is showing the racing line is not an "innovative" idea like the review says. Anyway, small stupid point on my part. It doesn't really matter.

I love PGR2 and GT1 and 2, I don't have the ps2. Anyways, the fullversion of Forza is definetly a contender for the best xbox driving sim. I've was bumped in the rear at a hairpin ( might been breaking too early), only to see the next round that the AI-driver behind did his best to avoid me and ended up backwards(porche) in the sandtrap.

Other things I've noticed:
- When having the obviously best car in the pack I've not experienced rubberband AI. Although I've been expecting it.

- The AI often run each other of the track. And even get stuck in eachothers.

- The brake discs get other calipers and larger diametre when you upgrade. Impressive detail.

- The car reflection is nice but laggy and slow.

- Few replay cameraangle options other than race-cams and one replay-cam. Why is there never a rewindbutton anymore? Does this require lots of memory or something?

- Car damage is nice, and affects the steering and gearbox.

- The framerate stutters a tad in replays, doesn't bother me, but will most likely annoy some of you here.

- Graphics are nice, but I've got for some reason troubles with seeing the turns in some tracks as Silverstone. Might be som focus effect or something, and for my likings the bumpercam makes the enteringpoints of turns hard to see.

- The AI looks like a step in the right directions, they notice me when I'm close, and they do aggressive takeovers. Fun to watch at the straights.

This is mostly what I've noticed a few hours into the game, barely scraping the surface. Hmmm... and I'm missing some shortcuts in the menus..

Edit: Bæd inglish and missing words

Forza has an average score of 94 on metacritic from 22 different reviews so using your own logic Zerob the game is bloody brilliant.

The graphics may not be as sharp as GT4 (and I spent whole evening yesterday recording a lap around Nürgburg ring with both in GT4 and Forza for a review) but I do not think that GT4 is that much better. The difference as I see when switching between the two games on my TV (28" widescreen Sharp) is that GT4 is more sharp and has much more vibrant colours. It does however suffer badly from aliasing and that is a pretty big issue to me.

Forza has much more subdued softer colours. It does however not suffer from aliasing and thus is nicer to my eyes than GT4.

Forza also has real shadows that you see on the car while GT4 has 2 modes: shadow or no shadow (meaning no separate shadows for trees etc.).

The reflections on the cards from surrounding objects are cool in Forza although there are times when you clearly see that they are running at only 15 fps (mainly when there's tons of trees reflecting on the car). The overall effect is really cool.

GT4 has nicer graphics but I still think Forza's graphics are great. Tonight I'm gonna load up PGR2 and RSC2 to compare.

Something I did notice when driving my Mitsubishi Eclipse GT around the track was that the sound in GT4 is puny compared to the one in Forza. in Forza the carsound has real omph while it is really annoyingly high in GT4.

So far I definitely prefer Forza over GT4 even though GT4 still is a great game.

But, IronGiant, all 22 of the web-sites were paid off just like Eurogamer was! ;)

No IronGiant and Feanor. You are picking at parts of my argument and not quite understanding it.

Did all 22 Forza reviews say it was flawless and mention no downsides? No they didn't. Some of them were actually reviews.

My point was that some reviews of Forza are 100% positive and some are a bit negative, and some are giving it far too much credit by simply focusing purely on its good points (nothing about low fps & jerky graphics etc). I didn't just say reviews anyway, I said forums too in my first post. There are very mixed views about Forza on forums, even downsides pointed out by people that prefer Forza to GT4, that reviews brush over.

A game like God of War has very few downsides/ poorly implemented aspects, as well as games such as Halo; they serve their genre to almost complete perfection. Both these games revieve practically 100% praise in both reviews and forums.

I never said GT4 was the best racer ever either, and it certainly too has its flaws (AI.) However, I do believe it is better, or at least on par with Forza, and I feel Forza is being highly overrated (for the reasons I stated in my 1st post on this article.)

My point, simply put, is that this EG review is not in line with other reviews in terms of mentioning its downsides. Thats why I said "unless an overwhelming majority of reviews say a game is good, they should not be believed" Just trying to say there is a noticable difference between how positive some reviews are toward the game compared to others.

Because some reviews are overrating it simply as they are (seemingly) relieved the XBox finally has a GT-style racer!! Exactly, the whole concept is taken straight from GT and fiddled with a bit.

And then they stick it in a few more times because its the first in the series, the first attempt.

And I'm quite capable of reading what people have said about the final version thank you.

One thing reviews dont seem to mention in teh GT4 vs. Forza debate is that of controllers. Some say u need a wheel to really play these games but for those who dont, Forza has a big advantage here.

The analogue trigger buttons on the xbox controller give far more scope for throttle movement than the thin PS2 triggers. I find this quite a big difference when playing driving games, esp Forza, on xbox.

Yeah, but you could twist that around and say GT4 has a better wheel, an awesomely good one.

Kind of true about the triggers, the Dreamcast had them too. But I found they were actually annoying for most games as shoulder buttons. And for games like MSR on the DC, I didn't half press the triggers at all.

"My point was that some reviews of Forza are 100% positive and some are a bit negative, and some are giving it far too much credit by simply focusing purely on its good points (nothing about low fps & jerky graphics etc). I didn't just say reviews anyway, I said forums too in my first post. There are very mixed views about Forza on forums, even downsides pointed out by people that prefer Forza to GT4, that reviews brush over."

But atleast they're talking about the FINAL version of the game, not the demo.

Yes, some people on forums talk about the downsides, but the opinion of almost all (which you conveniently ignore) is that the released game is much MUCH better than the demo!

So until you've actually played Forza for real, your claims that the game is overated is simply based on ignorance, and not on personal experience.

Yes, yes it is MUCH better than the demo. Gawd how much longer must I spend trying to get people to realise my point!

I'm not saying "the Forza demo is crap and so is the final versoin", or anything of the sorts!!! I'm simply saying its not as groundbreakingly, can't put a foot wrong, superb as this review makes out. There is practically nothing negative said about this game at all. This negatove things that are said, are in fact even turned around into positive things FFS!

I then want on to say (gawd I'm even going into my history of previous posts here as some people can't read them) unless all Forza reviews make it out to be this perfect, then the game should not be believed to be as great as is made out. IGN even said the graphics are 'good, but not great' which contradicts the EuroGamer review which stated "it gets everything spot on in that department" when referring to the graphics.

Also, people on this forum have said things like it runs at '25fps in widescreen', 'I'd take GT over this', 'not the bast racing game ever or even close', 'And while I'm no big fan of GT4, the offline part of Forza just isn't better (and looks less impressive)'.

So, other reviews and people's own comments after playing the game contradict this particular review. So all I'm saying is that its not as good as some reviews make it out to be.

I think you may be the ignorant one.

^^^ Gee, I seem to have touched a nerve there.

Reviews are simply opinions, and so making a big issue out of this one review is nonsence. Like most reviews, it consists of text AND a score, both of which should be taken into account. The score was 9/10 in case you didn't notice, which is less than some of the reviews which pointed out the negative issues you want to see. It was not 10/10, so I simply fail to see how they're overating the game.

What may have been graphical issues for some were obviously not issues for others, and so why should the reviewer state problems which didn't exist for HIM? Just to satisfy you perhaps?

If you have issues with the written review itself, that's fine, but as I said already, you haven't played the final game, therefore you're in no position to claim that "Forza is being overated". When you've played the final game, then you're more than welcome to make such claims, since it will be based upon your OWN experiences.

"I think you may be the ignorant one"

Oh please, I said your viewpoint was based upon ignorance, NOT that YOU were ignorant personally. Big difference! I have Forza on order and so I haven't played it yet either. I'm as ignorant of the final game as you are, even with all the reviews I've read (and I've read quite a lot). But unlike yourself, I'm not going to dismiss features like the dynamic racing line, or judge so-called 'issues' with the graphics, or (incorrectly) claim it has "rubber-band" AI, until I've seen it for myself.

"Yeah, but you could twist that around and say GT4 has a better wheel, an awesomely good one."

The point of my post was that for the majority of players who just use a pad, the xbox (hence Forza) has a big advantage of much more accurate throttle control.

You'd do a lot of twisting to turn this into GT4 having a better wheel.

O......K. Don't know if you are misunderstanding me on purpose but all I'm saying is there is a flip-side to your argument; Forza = "Better" pad (argubaly, as the PS2 pad sits in your hands so much better anyway) GT4 = Better wheel (definately).

Wasp, you always argue with me as you are an XBox fanboi, but I listen to your opinion. Why do you discount mine? You should value everybody's opinion. If you are selective about accepting opinions gracefully (not agreeing), there is not much point of a forum now is there? (you only hear what you want to.)

It'd be fun if Microsoft had called this one Great Turning or Gravel Tormentor or Gorza Totorsport.

I bet there'd be a lot less comments if everyone had to write out the full name everytime they mentioned one game or the other. ;)

As far as the sound goes - I love it! No other game has come close to it.

I got tired of being whipped in a hatchback race last night so I brought out the big guns and spent some 25.000 CR on upgrading my Saab 9-3. Dear lord does it sound evil now!

I get shivers down my spine everytime I race it. And it beats pretty much any competition I get (w/o any rubberbanding AI, quite the contrary).

Why are you so intent on pointing out any flaws in the game? There is no perfect game, or at least very few that could be considered close to perfection.. EG scored it a deserved 9/10, same as nearly every other review. Your so called opinion is just an attempt to slate the game at every possible opportunity, stop being so pathetic.

Please shut up about Forza until you actually play it. And if you're never going to play it, then just shut up.

And FFS, 30 fps is not low enough to be any sort of problem.

" lol scimirad if you didn't like PGR2 then you obvouisly don't like driving sims. "

I did like it, I just wasn't wildly enthusiastic about it and I DO prefer GT4.

I think there's a wide streak of "If you disagree with me you're wrong!" running through this thread.

Since when did PGR2 become a racing simulator?

And when did bashing Forza based on reviews become valid?

How come Forza got 9/10 when GT4 got 8/10? Was this based on the fact that GT4 was the fourth of an already well established series while Forza is a new, surprisingly good franchise? Is really one game better than the other? I haven't played Forza nearly as much as GT4 yet, but I know already which one i prefer. HOWEVER, that is because I have a really good drivers seat and a Driving Force Pro setup in front of my TV, so GT4 gets the edge on the actual experience I get. I'm not entirely convinced on the physics in Forza either, the cars feel too stiff and lifeless. Damage doesn't really do anything, considering the excellent damage engine we get in TOCA already - which is miles better.

I have a feeling GT5 will get my money over Forza 2 out of experience yet. But both games are really really good, one does things better than the other and vice versa. Though I still feel that GT4 has the edge that is missing in Forza. And really, the graphics aren't that great in Forza. In fact, I think GT4 have better.

The edge for me is the online play, I hardly touch single player unless its to unlock stuff.

Thats why I've gone for the xbox over ps2

Starting to get futher into it and becoming more and more impressed. Course design is excellent, particularly love the point-to-point downhill races :)

One thing I can't stand is when you're moving between cars on the selection screen, the stats at the top take just half a second or so to adapt, so you can't quickly flick about to compare.

Here's hoping this game has no licence tests. If it has none this will truly destroy my GT4 oriented mind.

Good work Microsoft ^_^

Some general things I've noticed having had it for a week now and I don't think I've even scratched the surface with it.

1. This game also has brake wear, you literally have to pump the brakes on the straights in the longer races to keep them responsive (obviously the wear varies between caliper sizes and brake fluids used).

2. You can revive worn/overheated tyres to get an extra lap or two out of them by controlling your pace (ie. let the cool down to a normal temperature).

3. There is NO rubberbanding AI, they can slipstream you but if they are out of your slipstream you'll need to make mistakes for them to catch you.

4. The AI will take defensive lines through corners (forcing you to go over/under) and will quite happily run two/three wide with you through corners with a little paint swapping. ;)

==EDIT==

5. The car telemetry is just so comprehensive that it's hard to take it all in. I'm just used to Geoff Crammond's Grand Prix 2/3/4, GT3/4 style telemetry so it will take some time getting my head around it all. But it definately covers every aspect of the car you could ever want.

==END EDIT==

This game is what I expected GT4 to be, simple as that. I still really enjoy GT4 even if it's not getting much play time at the moment.

Cheers

Forget the scores. Just read the freaking reviews. The score doesn't matter for shit.

wow

played this at GameStars last year – didn’t like it

played the demo two months ago – didn’t think it was much improved

lost three hours of my life last night on the finished version until conscience dragged me to bed

This game has definitely ‘come good’ in the last few months of development…

I havent got the game yet, should come tomorrow.

But here is my take on the graphics. Forza is better - here is why.

GT4 in comparisson is very very bare. If you have seen the comparisson video at Laguna Seca you will know what I mean if not, take a look: http://movies.msxbox-world.com/download_exclusive.php?id=111
5282900&file=Forza_Vs_GT4.wmv

For a start look at the track textures going into and through the corners.

Just after the video starts when going down the main straight look down the right hand side, Forza is far more detailed, GT4 has a hill/bank and a couple of trees.

After exiting the 3rd corner about 30secs into the video again look down the left, GT4 is completely bare of trackside obects and detail compared to Forza.

When comming out of the 2nd last turn GT4 just looks bare and completely lacks detail again.

When comming out of the last corner (1m:34) you can see right down the main straight, GT4 looks like most of the details and object have been ripped out. At no point during the lap does GT4 have more detail than Forza. And also if you have seen a lap around Laguna in real life Forza is very very authentic right down to the advertising and power lines above the track.
Their is SO much more going on in Forza graphically, plus the fact their is two extra cars and 600 layers for each car. As an overall package Forza looks better than GT4.

Forza looks like Laguna does in real life, GT4 does not.
Forza v Real Laguna Pics: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11410177

Forza v Real Road Atlanta (i think) pics
http://www.forzacentral.com/gallery/files/4/8/sim-forza-0387
.jpg
http://www.forzacentral.com/gallery/files/4/8/sim-forza-0388
.jpg


For thise reasons Forza is way ahead of GT4 for me in the graphics department. I will wait untill tomorrow before I comment on the physics and A.I. but from what I have read it is pretty damn good. Less face it as far as "racing" goes GT4 provides a pretty shallow experience with lifeless and basic A.I. A good "driving" sim it may be but its crap as far as racing goes. Basically GT 2 - 4 have been nothing more than full price expansion packs in my eyes. GT4 should have had so much more, but really the basic game has never chaned since GT1.

zErOb_cOOl, Forza is just better than GT4. don't cry.

"These is SO much more going on in Forza graphically"

Yes there is. Its only been said about a thousand times that Forza has better track-side detail. And as a consiquence it runs at 30fps instead of 60fps.

Forza also has sharp graphics (like on a PC) which is ok, but GT4 has organic, real looking graphics. Its not a case of whats there, so much as how it looks there.

I actually think this thread is pretty divided whether Forza is better than GT4 if you actually read it, so I don't know how you reached that conclusion Yossarian.

And if you are thinking of referring to the review score, I think you'll find that this review mentions none of Forza's known bad points, and also reviews naturally mark GT4 down due to the lack of vast improvement since GT3.

I personally think that Forza Motorsport looks nicer than Gran Turismo 4 even from the demo I played last year. GT4 looks at it's best in the replays where the soft focus effects blur out most of the awful aliasing and shimmering apparent when you play the game properly. Sure the cars look nice, but the backgrounds often look rough and the textures are drab and flat looking and the flickery backgrounds annoy after awhile. Yes, it looks good provided you don't look too closely...

Forza on the other hand looks better when you DO look closely as there is an insane amount of detail not only on the cars with self-shadowing and the like, but also in the impressive backgrounds, which have next to no popup and a long draw distance (GT4 suffers from popup noticeably at times and uses 2D backgrounds to increase the sense of distance, i.e. the Grand Canyon level). Forza looks much better ingame than GT4 as the graphics are smoother and anti-aliased.

I suppose it comes down to preference but I much prefer Forza's attention to detail over GT4's sharper less detailed look and the lower framerate doesn't bother me at all. I see that as a reasonable compromise for the all the lovely detail.

Yes, well you keep telling yourself GameRankings.com is the ultimate test of a game. I have just said why reviews aren't the definitive word on whether a game is good or not; as they take onto account the improvement factor since the previous game in the series.

Lets face it, if GT4 was the first in the GT series, it would score very highly indeed.

Besides, I suppose at the end of the day its personal choice. No matter how good reviewers say a movie is, you might think it completely stinks. Kill Bill. Did reviewers like it? Hell yeah they did. Do I like Tarantino films? Yup. Did I like Kill Bill? Nope not really. Pretty average. So just because you like racing games, and reviews say its good, doesn't mean its good at all. If you like Forza then fair play though.

Right from my first comment on this thread, my intent was not to go Forza-bashing but to point out that this review was unfairly focused on Forza's good points, and also that reviews can't alwas be believed, especially when there is a big difference in how positive they are towards a game, and there is conflicting information on forums.

So please everybody, stop telling me how great Forza is. The 'review' did plenty of this on its own.

"I have just said why reviews aren't the definitive word on whether a game is good or not; as they take onto account the improvement factor since the previous game in the series.

Lets face it, if GT4 was the first in the GT series, it would score very highly indeed."

So just to put things in perspective then, GT3 got the highest rating of the Gran Turismo series on good old gamerankings.com, and it was obviously the 3rd generation of the game (still lower than Forza's score incidently).

YES...............AND?............What is so hard to believe about that? The reviews (on average) thought GT3 improved vastly on the pervious 2 titles and so it gained the highest score. And GT4 improves on GT3, and is an even better incarnation of the series.

and also.....JESUS TAP DANCING CHRIST. Somebody has managed to turn this into a GT4 vs Forza thing again! How many times must I say this (I thought I explained it very well in my previous post.) My only problem was with the review of Forza. I have just said all this in my previous post and will not extend my opinion any further! Go and play Forza if its so good, and stop provoking me.

***Edit***
Also can you not see how scores for the GT series and Forza have panned out? (Why Forza scored higher that GT3)

The first GT was good, but not perfect, so gained high marks for the concept, but lost marks on badly implemented aspects, so recieved an average score.

GT2 and GT3 improved upon the first, but their scores were lowered as they were not the first games in the GT series, even though they are good improvements of the first game.

Then GT4 comes along and loses all marks for originality, but again improves on GT3. All these improvements are effectively 'lost in translation' when it comes to review scores, but it doesn't mean the games don't contain vast improvements.

In fact, it baffles me why Forza, a game that takes most of its ideas from GT4 (please don't argue with me on this, it obviously does), and adds a 'level up' game progression structure, has not been marked down on originality. Probably as its on the XBox and not PS2.

Never said Forza was good, can't go and play it cos its not out yet, provoking you will do until then!

I've come to the conclusion most PS2 owners must hate Rockstars latest GTA games with a passion as the PAL version is locked to 25 fps vs NTSC 30 fps (and there are alot of other PS2 titles that suffer the same fate), seeing as 30 fps in Forza isn't enough.

The FPS of a game shouldn't be an argument unless it's really bad like Destruction Derby Arenas 5-50 fps greatness. LOL!

/shakes head in disbelief
/continues to do so...
/head falls off..
/plonk

Cheers

Yes but what game compares to GTA: San An and offers an alternative? Nothing. So were happy with that for now thank you :)

With Forza you can opt to play GT4 instead.

/Shakes head back at MrGrumpy
/Head also falls off
/Both heads lie on the floor facing each other, and we settle the argument with a staring contest

ROFL!!

zErOb_cOOl we'll just have to agree to disagree.

And a great way to end the post too, top stuff.

/Headless staring match ends in a nil-all draw and the crowd is bitterly dissapointed.
/Walks home with head under shoulder...

Cheers

Heh, fair enough Wasp. Yeah I know what your saying about whether to buy the newer version or not, but it still means the newer version is better. I wasn't arguing that G4 is better than Forza, just trying to say why scores for GT4 are lower than you may expect (or not.) My beef is with the 100% positive points review, not the game. Anyway, fair doos.

zerob_cool, are u the same zerob_cool that was bashing forza many months ago, BEFORE it was even released?
Wow, I never knew fanboys could be so persistant.