Devil May Cry 3 Review
Limits pushed: difficulty, patience, skill, review policy, length of headline.
Version tested: PlayStation 2
Order yours now from Simply Games.
Dishonour! How is it that a company as experienced at making games as Capcom can suppose that Western gamers are somehow superhuman enough to enjoy playing an already brutally challenging game on 'hard' mode by default? Hilariously, in this case that's exactly the gaff Capcom made when it elected to pitch Devil May Cry 3's default skill level at the same level as the Japanese version's unlockable 'hard' mode with its US and European releases. No wonder I was having a few issues. And there was me thinking I'd just become terrible at games overnight. ["Become" -Tom]
Like many Capcom games, you initially have no choice but to play the game as the designers intended, but after it hears your plaintive whimpering it almost apologetically offers you the olive branch of an 'easy' mode after you've had your backside handed to you one too many times. But by then you may well be sporting the biggest ego humbling gaming has delivered since Ninja Gaiden and simply want to run off and play something that makes you feel good about yourself again.
No such thing as Easy Street in Capcomville

But if you know Capcom, you'll also realise its interpretation of 'easy' differs somewhat from the rest of the gaming pack that would practically play the game for you if you asked them. When Capcom says 'easy' it's a bare-faced lie. This so-called 'easy' mode is still more than capable of putting up a sterner fight than most games you'll face this year, yet manages to stacks the odds against you almost perfectly, unlike the hilariously easy one-button-mashing travesty that was the second part of this topsy turvy series.
Enough whingeing about the difficulty issues that Devil May Cry 3 positively basks in; if you're prepared to endure an almost vertical learning curve (or are simply used to this) you might just stick with the game long enough to realise that Capcom's latest hackandslasher is easily one of the best of its generation, and a timely return to form for a series that was in dire danger of becoming an irrelevance.
The third in the series is actually one of those oh-so-fashionable prequels that takes us back to Dante's early devilry years, at an unspecified point of his brash young manhood when he was desperately trying to do the right thing and stop his hateful twin brother Vergil from opening up the rift between the devil world and the human world that their father Sparda thoughtfully sealed up thousands of years ago. It seems the less-cool Vergil is intent on unlocking his latent demonic powers for some slightly unfathomable reason (presumably to rule the world, get a better house, craft a better hairstyle, and maybe get laid).
Would Dante bottle a semi final?

No such problems for Dante, who would shame Jose Mourinho for his oceanic reserves of self confidence and shameless arrogant ability to laugh in the face of anyone or anything that gets in his way. The game kicks off, as we've described at length in our first impressions, like a TNT factory on fire with the blonde-haired goth performing all manner of improbable (and quite possibly ludicrous) stunts in the face of hell's minions simply because he can. At this stage the spectacle's all very impressive and balletically bombastic, but completely over the top to the point of self-parody. You half-wonder if Dante's going to jump aboard a passing nuclear missile and ride it into hell itself before the chaos ends, but thankfully after a somewhat over-enthusiastic opening salvo (with some absolutely cringe-worthy one liners) the game settles into its traditionally dark gothic groove - and is all the better when it stops trying to impress the kids.
Having inched my way painfully slowly through what seemed like an epic journey of well over 15 hours of button-mashing torment, it's fair to say that the gameplay remains pretty consistent throughout. It's not going to exactly win awards for breaking the mould, but in terms of building on what's gone before it's easily the best-realised DMC of the three by some margin.
But let's not lose sight of the fact that in essence it's the same game at its core, with many, if not all, of the main game mechanics reprised for a third outing. If you've indulged in a DMC (or the spiritual spin-off Chaos Legion) before, you'll know the drill; bunch of hellish creatures appear, doors lock, Dante pulls out his mighty sword and firearm and dispatches said hellspawn with a series of simple but effective combos. In this case, the basic melee moves are once again assigned to the triangle button, with the shooting taken care of on the square button, basic jump manoeuvring mapped to X and special move/use on the circle button. It wasn't broken, and Capcom really didn't need to fix it.
Slinger of guns

What it has done, though, is ratchet up the combat in a variety of other ways, from adding a slew of new firearms and melee weapons (all upgradeable to boot), and more cunningly by adding a number of combat 'styles' (the evasive Trickster, the firearm specialist Gunslinger, the defensive Royal Guard, and melee specialist Swordmaster), lending the game more of an RPG feel. Although you can switch between styles as you please, the general idea is to specialise in one particular area and really max out your abilities, giving you a chance to tackle the combat in the way you feel most comfortable. Allegedly the default 'Trickster' is your best bet on your first play through, but we ignored that and went in all guns blazing using 'Gunslinger' all the way. Sometimes that old school Track & Field training from 20 years ago still comes in handy you know.
In common with all the other DMCs, downed enemies spew forth various orbs for your pains. By far the most common are the red orbs which act as the game's currency, enabling you to trade them in and learn new combat skills and upgrade weapons, not to mention allowing you to buy health, smart bombs, continues and devil trigger recharges. Occasionally you might actually be rewarded with some of these for free, either by solving mini mirror-puzzles or hacking your way through the regular secret missions that you occasionally stumble across, but DMC 3 is never exactly generous with what it dishes out, and often you'll find yourself having to work extremely hard to level up to a point where you're capable of defeating certain bosses and other hard-as-nails enemies. By far the most effective means of doing so appears to be replaying certain secret missions over and over again until you've racked up enough orbs to buy that tempting new upgrade, or maybe something as simple as enough health to see you through one of the huge number of bosses you'll face along the way.
But while the core gameplay stays roughly the same throughout, the hook that drags you along is undoubtedly the heady combination of learning ever-more-powerful and spectacular moves, meeting increasingly challenging creatures and bosses, not to mention exploring some wonderfully detailed environments.
Move it

In terms of the moves the game offers, it would take a feature all of its own to run through even half of them, given how many weapons and stages of upgrades there are. The most impressive facet of it all is that it never overwhelms the player with pointlessly elaborate multi-button combos, but keeps them mapped to one or two buttons in conjunction with the desired direction or rapidity of the button presses. For example, our favourite move in the entire game (and arguably one of the most consistently effective) is to simply do an Air Hike (jump and jump again when in mid air), followed by a hail of bullets. Used with the game's lock-on function it's a move that takes care of practically anything and has the added benefit of firing at objects off-camera. If you're a 'gunslinger' like us, doing the same thing but pressing the circle button performs an even more spectacular downward spinning assault, raking anything below you with lead in the process.
Not everything works like that, though, and if there's one thing you quickly learn about DMC 3 is that you can't simply monotonously use the same combo ad infinitum. Changing tactics to suit the enemy is key, and while some succumb easily to a quick slash of your favourite melee weapon, others require you keep your distance and time your assaults with the utmost care. Some even require a combination of the two before they'll shuffle off, and it's a game where you'll really enjoy getting to meet specific enemies and trying new things out. That moment when you discover their Achilles heel is truly satisfying, even on occasions when you're forced to battle through respawning creatures that fill corridors for no other reason than to hold you up.
The bosses, though, are the game's real highlights, and it's no exaggeration to admit that some of them held us up for hours. Not since the glorious Metroid Prime 2 (my personal favourite game of 2004) have we been forced to battle such challenging and ultimately satisfying bosses. While DMC can't really lay claim to being in the same league as that, it's still a glowing testament to the game's carefully balanced strength that we stuck with the game even when it presented something of a brick wall to our progress. Even the wasted hours felt somehow satisfying, because all the while we were busy levelling up and basically making Dante into the biggest badass we could, arming ourselves with extra health and continues in case it all went tits up - which of course it invariably did. Even so, the core gameplay - the combat - was somehow entertaining enough for it to not bother us that we weren't making progress off level sodding nine. Of course, once we'd conquered it we couldn't work out what was the big fuss. Sometimes it's just sheer panic, sometimes the burden of fatigue. Sometimes you're just plain ill-equipped, but it always felt enjoyable.
Gamer May Cry - if they don't buy yellow orbs

Well, almost always. For a while we didn't realise that we could continue after we died. The game simply doesn't offer continues by default, and it's up to you to buy yellow orbs to get yourself out of such trouble. If we could level one complaint at Devil May Cry 3, it'd be that Capcom really should point out how crucial it is that you do this. Fail to do so and you're basically left to play the level in question from the very beginning - and without any of the thousands of red orbs you'll have picked up along the way; very frustrating indeed. You can admittedly save your 'status' at any point (which will save your newly bought moves and so on even if you do get killed without a continue left in the bank) but it's still a drag being forced to replay an entire level when you probably came so close to killing the boss in question.
But once you accept that this is the way the game is designed you do everything to prevent it happening again. After 10, 15 hours of the game, you'll probably be numb to a lot of the little quirks and flaws and just get on with it. Having said that, it's clearly not perfect. It's a game that evidently starts off way too hard for most people's tastes, and then follows that up with a harsh lack of automatic continues, and a gameplay experience that's hardly what you'd call varied. You'll do more of the same pretty much all the way through, but that's okay, because once you're in that jump and move combo groove it's entertainment all the way.
And for once the cut-scenes and storyline are worth paying attention to. Okay, the storyline's still your typical teenage-fantasy guff, but the cut-scene direction is easily up there with the best we've ever seen in any game, with undoubtedly the most acrobatic animated scenes witnessed outside of The Matrix. Delivered with hugely impressive technical skill and visual pyrotechnics they're something to behold whenever they pop up, and they are usually long enough and sufficiently arresting to feel like a real reward for your efforts - not to mention a rest for your aching thumbs.
The rest of DMC's visuals are pure class, too, with an engine that has improved yet again to really come good on what the game promised when it first appeared back in 2001. Although we still have some fairly hefty reservations about any camera system that consistently fails to show the player what they're fighting against and has an alarming tendency to flick perspective at the most inconvenient of occasions, you can't argue that the spectacle itself is a fairly glorious one. Indeed, the backdrops are possibly among the most stunning the PS2 has managed, although arguably still some way behind The Sands Of Time and God Of War for all out gob-smackery, while the characters are as perversely sick and twisted as they've always been, appearing half reanimated puppet, half Satan's finest. A perversely intriguing blend, by anyone's standards.
Uneasy listening
As far as the audio goes, though, there's no doubt our opinion of the young Dante's quips and electro Goth music taste softened as the game wore on, from outraged Oh-my-god-it's-Warrior-Within-all-over-again to actually smiling at some of his cockier outbursts later on. Besides, the music - while still vile to these ears - does wash over you after a while. It's not truly objectionable, just mildly so. We'll move on.
So, after 2003's 4/10 debacle, to find ourselves wanting to double that score has to be considered a comeback of Norwich City proportions in the light of what could have happened. Sure, Capcom has completely over-compensated by making the game initially too hard, but once you get over this frightful difficulty hump, one of 2005's most accomplished and enjoyable games emerges from the fug. For all its new tricks, there's really not enough that's new here to command the 9/10 it might have otherwise been granted if it had been a new kid on the block, but in terms of being rated as a worthy sequel it's comfortably the kind of game you'll happily add to your collection if you were one of the many that saw much potential in the 2001 original, and one that you'll welcome into your home even if you kicked the 2003 sequel onto the bonfire. At the very least rent it, but bear in mind you'll probably need more than a few days before you'll get the most from it. Now let's see what Capcom can do with the series in the next generation...
Order yours now from Simply Games.
8 / 10
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Comments (66) Latest comment 4 years ago
Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!
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The game is awesome! But I can't believe hardly anybody bought it.........
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DMC itself is full of difficulty spikes (has everyone forgotten their first meeting with Phantom in DMC 1?) but in both games it's 3 strikes and you're allowed to wuss out. In fact, even more so in the 3rd, when comparing the difference between 'Easy Auto On' and its 'Normal' modes.
Credit to Capcom for even including an easy level tbh, where 'Gaiden was so obstinate in its hardcore policies. No slight on NG, but it's a point worth making that DMC 3 works just as well through all difficulty levels, so there's no excuse not to go that extra mile and include an 'Easy' mode.
And kudos also to Capcom, generally, for always making the offer of an 'Easy' mode feel like such a humiliation in their titles, almost forcing you to play on through the 'pain'.
Plus let's not forget what you get when a DMC team panders to the casual gamer's survey-driven wish for easiness. >koff!< DMC 2 >koff!<
Anyway, 60+ hours spent on this game has probably warped my outlook on it to be fair, so I'll get my coat.
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Am I the worst DMC3 player? I actually couldn't get past level 2 before being offered 'Easy'!!!
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EDIT: Doh! Second sequel I meant, obviously
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Only 15+ hours? You couldn't have found it THAT hard, then!
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easy is still easy, and hard is still really hard, but the Normal difficulty is closer to the Japanese version than the US version was.
But maybe you played an NTSC preview version, eh?
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I'll wait for DMC 4 when they balanced the whole thing out, since frustration isn't my idea of fun.
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True.
Good job they improved the graphics, sound, level design, character design, combos, weapons, storyline and game length/ replayability with DMC 3 then, eh?
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My point was that all that is ruined by making the game frustrating. Due to the line of thinking that difficulty was the main issue with DMC2.
Same as with Prince of Persia, some complaints about the combat system not working so well and immidaitly Ubi makes combat a bigger part of the game and turns the prince into an action movie star look-a-like.
Over compensation, it ruins sequals.
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DMC3 isn't as hard as you seem to think, although even easy mode is enough of a challenge to feel satisfying when you beat the game.
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I've levelled up Dante's every style to maximum, done all the secret missions, found every blue orb fragment, and maxed out every weapon. Basically, 60 hours in, and there's nowhere left for me to go except through the higher difficulty levels (which I'm doing) with a fully tooled up Dante.
My friend Mark has just finished Normal. He hasn't maxed out any style other than Swordmaster, and hasn't found every blue orb fragment. And though he's got a full Devil gauge, his health bar falls well short of my maxed out double row.
When I asked him what he thought of the last boss (Vergil on level 20) he said 'Oh yeah, I pissed it. Only used one Devil Star.'
Forgetting that he had the PAL version (doh) I was pretty amazed, as level 20 on NTSC normal had very nearly given me arthritis in the 2 hours it took me to beat, trying out all fighting styles/ weapon combos, and using Vital Stars/ 2 Devil Stars.
'Bloody hell!' I replied, but then remembering that we were playing two different versions...'Fancy having a go on mine? See if you can piss it in quite the same way?'
'Erm...okay' (sounding a bit dubious)
Bearing in mind that my Dante is now totally healthed/ powered up, and armed to the teeth as much as is inhumanly possible, and that Mark was using his favoured (maxed out) style and (maxed out) weapons combo...
Well, on multiple attempts, he couldn't even get Vergil's boss bar down by a 10th of its length, yet had pretty much hammered him on PAL, using just a single power up.
From what I've seen and read of the PAL version, it's by far the fairest of the 3 versions, with the Japanese one apparently erring on 'too easy' and the USA version being a bit of a ball breaker.
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Hell no - how could anyone ever forget that mofo. When I couldn't beat him I gave up the game for six months, no joke. Then I came back and whopped the game in a few days.
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But you haven't even played it yet, so how can it possibly be said to have been ruined?
I thought you said they'd only changed the formula by whacking up the difficulty? DMC 3 is a much changed game, and not just for the raised challenge.
DMC 2 was borked for many more reasons other than difficulty. And each of these reasons has been addressed in DMC 3.
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Especially since it's not nessairy at all, they know how to do a good balanced hack and slash game, only have to look at Onimusha 3 for that.
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The best way to rack up red orbs is to replay Mission 1 on Easy. Once you're decent at the game, you should be able to get 4-7,000 red orbs in under two minutes by getting an A or S ranking. If you'd prefer to just collect red orbs, start Mission 4 and go backwards to where Mission 3 took place, and you'll find large red orbs all over the place.
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Funnily enough I'm playing Oni 3 again at the moment. I absolutely love it. But it IS a bit too easy on Normal. And many reviews say this. Played on Hard it feels just right. With the action needing a little bit of work on the player's part to get through. After playing Onimusha 2, I was a little concerned when only Guildernstern gave me any trouble out of the Oni 3 bosses, with many of the underling encounters actually eclipsing the set pieces in terms of tension and challenge.
DMC 3, like Ninja Gaiden, isn't about easing you through a story-driven adventure, like GoW or the Onimushas. Funnily enough though, Ninja Gaiden seems to be more glorified for its difficulty, even though it doesn't offer a single mode as easy as DMC 3's easiest, which (if you played it) you'd find much easier, but still (as President Weasel says) 'enough of a challenge to feel satisfying when you beat the game'.
If you choose to persist with Normal, or Easy Auto Off, well you've no more cause to be moaning about how tough DMC 3 is than a player of Ninja Gaiden.
Unless you play it yourself, you'll never really know though, and that's the bottom line.
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Even managed to beat the level 2 boss on normal.
Seriously though, it's challenging but I've not found it anywhere near as frustrating as I expected to.
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I used 4 Devil Stars and 4 Large Vital Stars to beat Level 20 on the American version, and I mainly used the rocket launcher and Agni & Rudra. The Devil Stars were more vital (ha) than the Vital Stars in a way, because it was so hard to do damage without them.
But wow, they really made the PAL mode a lot easier.
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Certainly not gonna risk 60 bucks on it with the stores new return policy of only accepting sealed copies back.
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Ninja Gaiden has no easy mode, people, and definitely no easy-automatic with as many continues as you feel like paying for. DMC 3 is much nicer to gamers with limited time or skills.
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"I used 4 Devil Stars and 4 Large Vital Stars to beat Level 20 on the American version, and I mainly used the rocket launcher and Agni & Rudra. The Devil Stars were more vital (ha) than the Vital Stars in a way, because it was so hard to do damage without them.
But wow, they really made the PAL mode a lot easier. "
That uppercut you do with Beowulf seemed to stun him long enough to deal him massive damage, even with no devil trigger activated, and Trickster was great to keep out of his way when HE triggered. I used E&I to keep him illin' from a distance when he was Devil Vergil (while in Devil Dante mode, in case he caught me) and then repeated the Beowulf thing, using Rebellion Stinger to get me to him quickly.
2 large vitals and 2 devils later...plus a severe case of carpal tunnel...he was toast.
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But on its easiest mode DMC 3's a lot, LOT easier!
Edit: btw, from what I hear, the Japanese version has full English language options, plus is much easier across the difficulties anyway.
More importantly, if avoiding frustration is your prime concern, it has a check point system, as in Chaos Legion, where you can SAVE your position in the map to memory card before all boss encounters.
That seems a pretty fair system to me.
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In the same way that some came on to the forum after months of gaiming saying "Yeah, Ninja Gaiden, it's not really that hard, the reviews are agerating it".
I believe the saying goes, "once bitten, twice shy", or something.
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Fair enough. It's your choice, obviously, but imho it's also your loss.
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God of War was much better in this aspect. Well, I consider it to be a better game in any aspect, but the point is, the Standard difficulty is perfectly balanced, and if you want to play at a higher difficulty, you also have the HARD option. If that doesn't suit you either, you can play through the GOD mode after completing the game once.
Ok, enough about this. What I really want to know, would you say Devil May Cry 3 is as hard as Ninja Gaiden? If it is, or almost is, I won't pick it up until it's in the bargain bin.
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The cut scenes ran the gamut of every emotion known to gamedom, and were very nearly worth the price of admission by themselves!
As for this game's replay value...simply off the charts, m8! Excellent stuff.
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Yes, it is AS hard.
But it is also (if you care to choose the easier modes) MUCH easier.
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I beat the Normal mode of the NTSC version in just over 30 hours without ever touching Easy, and I'm not some super gamer. I'm just someone who didn't mind leveling up Dante's health bar, weapons, moves etc. until I had enough to take on the tougher levels. And, importantly, I HATE re-doing parts of games over and over but because of the yellow orbs, DMC 3 didn't bother me at all in this regard.
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Been renting out DMC3 - I take it back Sunday - and it IS an improvement, but still not perfect. As said, the music and Dante's new "attitude", as well as Lady Mary looking like a schoolgirl with big breasts (Whatever floats your boat I suppose), and some pretty frustrating sections in there - 8 out of 10 is generous, but the game is great so I'll agree with that.
As for difficulty... umm, you mean to tell me there's an easy mode?!?!
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After about half way through the game, it gets easier once your helath is increased and your weapons levelled up plus extra skills etc..
Starts out hard gets easier is too easy come the end.
Try NG with the downloadable hurricane pack if you want a challenge.
Now that's HARD!!
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No it isn't, you've just become skilled at playing it.
I find it quite easy too now (and great fun). But then I also remember sore knuckles from punching walls in frustration.
a game the phrase "all of a sudden it just clicks into place" makes perfect sense.
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teh boat is floated
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This is just ridiculous, I have NO chance of finishing this game. And I don't consider myself a bad gamer. In fact, I'm the very definition of a gamer, and I don't mean the casual type. This game could have been a 9/10 or so, but because of the incredibly unbalanced difficulty, this get's a 4 or 5/10 from me so far.
Seriously, don't they want you to keep playing it? What the hell am I doing wrong? If I met the guy who made the game so hard, I'd chain him, put him in a box, throw away the key, sink the box to the bottom of the ocean and challenge him to release himself from the chains and box. It's not difficult, it just requires a bit of practise.
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That sentence is enough to tell me this is DMC all over again. To that I say I couldn't be arsed. Meh!
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Besides, God of War beats Ninja Gaiden with both hands tied to its back.
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They're both equally frustrating, but equally fun and equally rewarding and give a pretty similar feeling of satisfaction when you beat them.
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But I'm very interested in ANY of the Devil May Crys, because I've yet to thoroughly play either of them. I had the first one when it was new, but I wasn't very much into these kind of games back then.
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EDIT: Yeah, the horseman boss. Kill the guys that throw the magic at you first. They eventually stop spawning. It becomes much easier to kill him when they're gone. And you can absorb their essence for a charge attack that takes off a huge chunk of his life bar. Just wait for him to get close. Also, fire wheels ninpo. Use it. And arrows if you can.
Above all: keep trying. If you beat the game and fight him again, you'll realise that he really isn't that hard at all.
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Yes you die once or twice untill you get used to it and learn the enemies moves but later it is pure HC gameplay fun.
Take your time to learn it! It is worth it!
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But theese (rare) games really have replay value.
edit: Well, NG's VERY HARD and DMC's Dante Must Die! mode is a different story!
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Just a last note, I DO replay certain titles. I've played through Metal Gear Solid at least six times, MGS2 maybe four times and MGS3 two times. Final Fantasy VII has been played through to the end (not always beating the final boss, no reason to do that a million times when you already know the ending by heart) maybe a dozen times. Monkey Island 1 and 2, maybe 15-20 times each since they came out.
So, can all those who say "people who thinks NG is too hard are lamerz or like to rush through their games" just shut up, because that's so wrong it only makes you sound like an idiot. I'm not overly impressed by Ninja Gaiden, but I guess that's what happens when you play a game that's twice as good beforehand.
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Admittedly the reported difficulty of DMC3 has put me off buying the game and I think God of War looks the better bet for a "lamer" like me.
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Ah well, if the difficulty doesn't kill it, the lack of interesting and intriguing level design does. I mean, it's so... boring.
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If this isn't your idea of fun it's probably wise to avoid this particular sub genre!
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If you find that too hard, I have to ask - do you have eyes and thumbs?
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Is it so hard to accept that someone didn't fall for the hype, always defending the game by assuming I don't like the (sub)genre or that I'm not good enough? This game was made an action/adventure, they failed with the adventure bit. That's not a sub-genre. That's a failure. Heck, if I want deep and involving combat, I play Virtua Fighter, which I really love btw. You play the NG for the levels, the progression of a story, AND combat. If they didn't want the level-design to be interesting, why the hell did they put them in anyway?
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Does it matter how big or small the sub genre is? I'd include 3 games in there myself (A sub genre consisting of Devil May Cry (1/2/3), Ninja Gaiden, Chaos Legion) but it doesn't really matter, does it? 3, 4 or 64....fact is, these games have gradeable combat, with stats as their draw. They're hard, and they're hard because the combat requires some serious learning. Button mashers these are not, though there's always a few people who swear they did 'Gaiden on hard by mashing. Bollocks.
"And, why do people insist that NG has such a deep combat system"
Because it has?
"when in truth it's no deeper than any other games that rely on combos."
Because the sheer range of weaponry and moves is staggering, as is the battle acumen of the enemy. Which makes besting them quite tricky unless you're prepared to learn the deep combat model.
"It's certainly no deeper than the system in The Mark of Kri, which by the way have a very good and insteresting level design"
It's soooo much deeper than Mark of Kri's, though Kri's is novel, and I couldn't even be bothered to finish that game, even if its level design, while not brilliant, was pretty good. The fighting was quirky, but imho overly simple and dull.
"Is it so hard to accept that someone didn't fall for the hype, always defending the game by assuming I don't like the (sub)genre or that I'm not good enough?"
Sounds like you're saying that fans of NG and DMC 3 all fell for the hype. Cheeky. Cheers, but I beg to differ. I love the fighting system of the DMC games in particular. The challenge, the way you can look at a score sheet and know where you went wrong, and the ability to replay and get better at the combat. You don't as much? Well, that's your opinion. I certainly don't think you're some enlightened hype-resistant games guru just because you don't like it as much as me, though.
"This game was made an action/adventure, they failed with the adventure bit."
Rubbish. They may have told the story in a more disconnected way (in cut scenes rather than in the game) but the compartmentalised nature of the game (do level, see stats, go back and improve if you so wish, if not onwards, etc) means that the flowing nature of GoW or Onimusha isn't as important. You don't like it? Don't play it, simple as that. Personally I like all the different styles of action/ adventure, but I can see that certain games have a different 'ratio' of gameplay ingredients than others. Pretty obviously.
"That's not a sub-genre. That's a failure."
No, it's a sub genre that doesn't fall into your overly convenient way of categorising games.
"Heck, if I want deep and involving combat, I play Virtua Fighter, which I really love btw."
Great. And you won't have a dynamic 3rd person view of a character visiting new locations, fighting multiple enemies at once, solving puzzles (yeah, knock the puzzles now, why don't you) besting a boss in roaming 3D, and basically doing everything with a deep combat system that cannot be achieved in what amounts to a side scrolling fighter. What a ridiculous comparison...Virtua Fighter indeed!
"You play the NG for the levels, the progression of a story, AND combat"
I think the difficulty of the game would suggest that the emphasis is on the combat, though the game encompasses other styles of gameplay. It's a combat game in a nice setting with a token story. Like DMC 3. But unlike Onimusha or GoW.
"If they didn't want the level-design to be interesting, why the hell did they put them in anyway?"
Because having a Ninja running around in a black space probably isn't as interesting as him running around a convincing 3D world. Only guessing though!
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About the depth of NGs combat system. Well, I don't think they're particularly deep, but then I'm only on the fourth level yet. Perhaps I discover the depth later then. Difficult opponents doesn't equal deep combat system though. And neither does having more than three moves.
And don't bash the buttons in The Mark of Kri, but use the combos and you'll have a deeper system than it seems on the outside.
For the hype part, I'm not saying everyone is "falling for the hype". I was talking about how everybody rave about how great NG is, when in fact, I didn't find it as fantastic as everyone made out to be. It's great that people like this game more than I do, but I don't think it's fair to attack me for not liking that particular genre or not being good enough to play it. It just doesn't feel that great to me. That's all. The reason is, while the gameplay is okay and all, the level design puts me off. Devil May Cry, which you put in the same "sub-genre" was much better. At least, the little I've tried from it.
"They may have told the story in a more disconnected way (in cut scenes rather than in the game) but the compartmentalised nature of the game (do level, see stats, go back and improve if you so wish, if not onwards, etc) means that the flowing nature of GoW or Onimusha isn't as important."
Depends on what you like of course, but in general, that natural flow is ALWAYS important. Why, wouldn't you rather play Ninja Gaiden WITH great level design and storytelling than Ninja Gaiden without? If they fix these parts for NG2 (which I have a feeling they will), the game have even more potential than the first one, doesn't it?
"What a ridiculous comparison...Virtua Fighter indeed! "
I was talking about the combat, remember? NG failed to interest me with the level design, and all that's left is a decent combat model that's left in the dust if you play a genre that's specialized on that field. So I take out the levels, and "multiple enemies at once fighting" has so far only been "up to three enemies at once, but when one die, a new one spawns in his place", and the story has so far been pretty simplistic. "I must avenge my father". Oooh, deep one. Of course, that stuff about the Dragon Blade and so, just to justify the "i must avenge my father" part.
And you mentioned puzzles. I can't attack those. There aren't any. Unless you consider finding one piece of a statue/something/anything and putting it in it's place a "puzzle". Maybe more and better ones will come later. But then again, this isn't genre isn't known for it's great puzzles...
And, as I said before, it's not that hard between bosses. But the bosses, so far, have been rather unbalanced. The bosses should gradually be harder to beat, not the other way around.
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I consider them to be part of the same overall genre, NOT sub genre. I don't play Onimusha 3 or God of War mainly for their combat. Although I really enjoy the fighting of both these games, it's the storyline/ characters/ situations that kept me fascinated in both cases. I differentiate between DMC/ Gaiden and GoW/ Musha games. I may be alone, but I doubt it.
I've coined a phrase for the former 'sub genre' which I call 'dojo' games. Imho, they're a playground for fighting styles dressed up in a nice 3D engine, with a tagged on story. DMC's story is utter fluff. DMC 3's is far deeper and better realised, even if it's told exclusively in disconnected cut scenes. At their core though it's all about chaining together attacks as stylishly as possible and improving your rank PER LEVEL. Linking nicely to:
"The only difference is dividing the levels up into... well, levels, and the screen which tells you how good you were at beating that particular level. That's the ONLY thing I can see is different. "
But that's a big difference if that's one of the main reasons why you find a game like that satisfying. If you care about it (which I guess they're hoping you DO!) it makes you play the game in a more episodic manner.
See, I'm not saying game X is better than game Y because it does this, or is harder than that, or whatever. I'm saying they are different. And quite markedly so. I don't think that the creators of Gaiden or DMC 3 were out to tell a flowing yarn of GoW/ Musha proportions, just as I don't think that Inafune was concerned with giving the player the same depth of gradeable combat as DMC/ Gaiden. The game has puzzle boxes, exploration and a far more integrated story. It also plays at a slower pace, its combat is more grounded and timing based, and the feel of the game is very different the way story is triggered far more frequently in-level.
But should all action adventures be done this way. I certainly hope not! I love DMC for what it does and expect nothing less, and bought GoW for its far more adventure based gameplay. I certainly don't go back to GoW for its fighting so much though. Where as 60 hours down the line in DMC 3, I'm still trying to better my skills and beat the much harder levels.
This isn't as important to me in GoW. The challenge was just right in GoW imho, for what it is. A well balanced action adventure yarn. In Onimusha 3 I felt it was a tad easy on most of the bosses, and I'm actually appreciating it far more the 2nd time round playing it, on HARD...so that's one instance where the fighting becomes more integral to a game's enjoyment in a more adventure based setting. Is this down to it being a tad unbalanced initially though, or maybe I've improved as a gamer? I'm not sure. The other 2 Onimusha games felt right on Normal, but maybe that's just me.
"And I liked the first Devil May Cry very much, in fact, I think I liked it more than NG. And what do you know, it's got great level design too! "
Well yes, it has, as has DMC 3. And some of DMC's best level design comes a lot later than level 4...Gaiden's too. Gaiden's levels have been praised in a lot of reviews, but you probably have to get a little further in than you are currently.
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I don't think I'll return to NG, however. I got stuck on the tentacle fiend, something I could have beaten with persistence, but the distance the game sent you back after death was too frustrating. Loads of ninjas, then dragon things, then the boss?? I'm not really into that, unfortunately. Shame though, I was really enjoying the combat during the levels- getting to grips with the blocking etc., but I never found this particular boss's week spot, and eventualy couldn't be bothered to continually trudge through the tough dragon's etc to have another go. DMC's yellow orbs, on the other hand, banish this completely. Lovely.
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